[3.5] Undead minions rules & advice

[iTookUrNick]

Sources: everything, within reason. Campaign world is custom made, very low on arcane magic and no psionics.

Player Character: Level 6 LE Human Cleric with talent tree geared toward necromancy (Undeath domain, Spell Focus, Corpsecrafter...). Player is new but highly motivated, aiming for an optimized PC.

Questions:

1. Undead skeletrons/zombies: max 4xlevel HDs, no max HD (?) as long as it has a suitable corpse. Class levels do not count. Also, whatever adds to the caster level of animate dead also adds to the limit (?). True or false?

2. "Minions" get their own turn (?). Also, said minions must be directed by the cleric. How long does it takes to impart a command (free/swift/move/standard/round?). Can instructions be given beforehand? Can be given out of turn/during the undead's own turn?

3. We are using MM1 only (for simplicity's sake). What would you suggest as appropriate monster(s) to deliver as raw materials? How many? How about undead to be controlled? NB: party is currently shorthanded, and lacks real arcane caster (but so do most enemies, by design). Therefore, there may be the need for crowd control in addition/alternative to damage soaking depending on the situation.

3b. I was presented with "elite undead" from Eberonn. If I allow them, are there balancing issues I should be aware of? Should I impose qualifying corpses restrictions? Should I allow for better warriors (= more HD etc) as they progress, up to a limit? Should I even make the spell available to the player if he is not a bone knight?

4. Any suggestion for special items? These can be custom or taken from DM/MIC. The real question is how to gauge their effects on the game. Candidates include staff of undead mastery (x2 controllable undead HD), rod of defiance (-4 turn resistance), staff of the netherworld (+3 effective level for turning/rebuking). What would you give the player and when? Anything that may be of use right now?

4b. I was presented with a request: a custom continuous "undead lieutenant" ring (bracelets, actually... :), price about 15k imh. This, as I interpret it, would create a "disposable coort" of sort for directing the other undeads and freeing the cleric turn (if, as we have assumed so far, directing mindless undead is a standard action). What would you say to that?

5. Any other useful suggestion for me and/or the player?

Answer may include both official rules and your own changes/fixes. Also, when in doubt, flavor is a plus.

Thank you in advance for your helpful comments.

PS: feel free to post partial answers too. And no pressure :smallsmile:

[Gamer Girl]

1.There is no max HD on skeletons(or any creature, really). A skeleton losses all it's class levels/hit dice. Yes, you can increase your CL and effect more undead.

2.Yes, they get their own action in a round. Most Dm's will simply have them go at the same time as you, but some might have them roll their own initiative. Skeletons and zombies are mindless, so you have to tell them exactly what to do. Most Dm's allow a mindless undead to follow a simple single sentience order. And it will follow that order mindlessly. So you can give them simply instructions before hand, 'attack anyone who comes up behind me', for example. They follow your spoken commands, and speech is a free action you can do anytime. They still can only act on their initiative.

3.For just animate undead? Skeletons are great fodder, so it does not matter much what they are in form. I think the Ettin is one of the best skeletons.

3b.It's all up to you. I don't think the Ebberon stuff is that over whelming.

4.You want to read this : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook

and http://okayyourturn.yuku.com/topic/13784


And http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=208526

[WarrenZig]

Some random tidbits.

1. No creature with more than 20 hit dice can become a skeleton, except for dragons i believe. not including level dice of course.

2. undead under your control do roll initiative, and if you have a nit-picky dm they may need you to give orders to your undead during the fight before they will do anything (at most it's have them delay their turns until given an order) or have given them an order pre-fight that would apply during it.

3. neat trick some dms may not like, xmute stone to flesh to create a corpse out of a statue, but that could end up complicating things. If you want a meat shield pick something big, skeletons and zombies lose most of their abilities, for a skeleton ettin is a good choice and if you want a good zombie pick a hydra it's heads work independently and you are still able to make a full attack after moving.

3.b Ebberon stuff isn't that bad.

4. The stuff from Libris Mortis can make some damn fine undead, and you do want to check out the revised necromancer handbook, but it does use alot from outside the core books.

4b. if you use Libris Mortis it has the feat Undead Leadership which allows you to attract undead as cohorts, you also gain a +1 to your score for undead, but you take a -2 to living creatures on your score.

5. have him check out the revised necromancer's handbook that Gamer Girl posted a link to, it's pretty much everything you need for some good necromancy, also check out the Tome of Necromancy linked in the handbook, which contains homebrew content involving undead if it interests you.

[iTookUrNick]

Thank you for your aswers. They were most heplful. :smallsmile:

So, just to be clear... free action or not? If it is, why shuldn't it be possible to direct them on the first turn if they win initiative?

[JaronK]

1. Undead skeletrons/zombies: max 4xlevel HDs, no max HD (?) as long as it has a suitable corpse. Class levels do not count. Also, whatever adds to the caster level of animate dead also adds to the limit (?). True or false?

Skeletons and Zombies (except dragon undead) max out at 20HD after conversion. This means the creature must have 10HD or less to start if it's going to be a Zombie, 20 HD or less if it's a Skeleton. Furthermore, the limit on a single casting is 2XCL, while the total limit is 4Xcharacter level. However, if you go over the max on a single casting (usually due to special abilities like some of the Cleric Domains or the bonus from Desecrate) then you keep that value (but further castings will lose any old undead).


2. "Minions" get their own turn (?). Also, said minions must be directed by the cleric. How long does it takes to impart a command (free/swift/move/standard/round?). Can instructions be given beforehand? Can be given out of turn/during the undead's own turn?

Animate Dead minions are commanded IIRC with a standard action (though that might be Rebuke Undead commands, not sure), though that may not be right. But you can give basic instructions in advance. I like "follow me, and attack anything that [tank] attacks, or anything that attacks me." They'll act on their own initiative.


3. We are using MM1 only (for simplicity's sake). What would you suggest as appropriate monster(s) to deliver as raw materials? How many? How about undead to be controlled? NB: party is currently shorthanded, and lacks real arcane caster (but so do most enemies, by design). Therefore, there may be the need for crowd control in addition/alternative to damage soaking depending on the situation.

The best zombies are 10 Headed Hydras, preferably Pyro or Cryohydras. Those guys are amazing, mostly because they make 10 attacks as a standard action (and zombies only get a standard action attack). Don't forget to use a desecrated alter to raise them near for the extra HP. For skeletons, just look for anything with a high HD and strength. As far as commanding goes, without access to Turn Resistance reduction, you can't really command much that's useful at all, especially in MM1. Remember, you can only control something via Rebuke that's half your HD. With undead, that's going to be something VERY weak.


3b. I was presented with "elite undead" from Eberonn. If I allow them, are there balancing issues I should be aware of? Should I impose qualifying corpses restrictions? Should I allow for better warriors (= more HD etc) as they progress, up to a limit? Should I even make the spell available to the player if he is not a bone knight?

Eh, they're still not that great. The really amazing undead is the Necrosis Carnex from MMV, which can be created by Animate Undead (min caster level 11) and runs around healing your guys. Also, the Black Sand spell is amazing.


4. Any suggestion for special items? These can be custom or taken from DM/MIC. The real question is how to gauge their effects on the game. Candidates include staff of undead mastery (x2 controllable undead HD), rod of defiance (-4 turn resistance), staff of the netherworld (+3 effective level for turning/rebuking). What would you give the player and when? Anything that may be of use right now?

The best is Turn Resistance reducers. That'll allow you to command a few actually decent undead, like Vampires. Most undead have really high HD for their CR, making them useless as turned critters, but Vampires are worth grabbing. Remember, if you got -8 Turn Resistance (Lyre of the Restful Soul from Libris Mortis + Rod of Defiance) at level 7 you could command up to 7 9 HD undead without trouble. Also, remember that you check turn resistance only at the moment you do the rebuking.


5. Any other useful suggestion for me and/or the player?

Singular, big critters are much better than hordes of little guys. Lots of little guys slow down the game and just make everything frustrating.

JaronK

[iTookUrNick]

1. Ok.

2. The action required to direct animated and/or controlled undead has yet to be determined with confidence. I would appreciate more thoughts/info on the matter. @JaronK: do you recall a possible source for the info you provided on the subject? I would check myself if you do.

3. Ettin skeletons, Hydra zombies. Easy enough. Necrosis Carnex (MMIV) for support. Ebberon stuff is about average.

4. You imply negative Turn Resistance can reduce HD down to 1 minimum(?). It does sound familiar, but can anybody confirm this? Would HD still count toward the total for controlling undead (as an example, controlling a single creature with HD equal to your level)? I seem to understand from your example that this is not the case, and it sounds strange to me, even considering reduced HD for rebuking purposes.

5. I concur.

[Gamer Girl]

1a.If your talking about undead the caster created with Animate Dead. The SRD says:This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands.

So you simply have to speak to tell them what to do. And speech, from the SRD:In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.

So your free to speak to and command your undead at any time.

1b.The spell Command Undead follows the above rules.

1c.If your using Command Undead via the cleric's channel ability, the SRD says: A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead.

[Psyren]

I think it's worthwhile (though not strictly RAW) to apply the mob rules from DMG2 if a player raises enough undead mooks.

[Sception]

Gamer Girl has the actions right - free actions (provided your commands can be issued in a sentence or two) for Animate Dead / Command Undead (the spell) minions, Standard Action for Command Undead (via rebuke) minions.

General Advice:

You can control a lot of undead. A lot. 4x caster level via animate dead alone. Twice that via Rod of Undead Mastery (or whatever it's called, it's in Libris Mortis). Plus undead controlled via rebuking. If you have access to the Command Undead spell (perhaps via eberron's necromancy domain), that's another mindless creature per caster level per day per second level spell slot you devote to it (total control of one mindless undead targeted, no save, no hit dice cap, lasts one day per caster level). If you have the leadership feat, your cohort may have their own control pools, and any third level or higher wizard followers can cast comand undead themselves.

I once made a dread necromancer themed specifically for maximum army control. His maximum army size was over 1,000 hit dice of creatures controlled directly or indirectly, and that was at level 14 (the number of individual creatures was lower - many of those creatures were 14+ hit dice monstrosities).

And none of that is counting the fact that spawning undead with control over their progeny, such as wights, shadows, and wraiths, all of which can be controlled via rebuking at some level (shadows can even be summoned via the summon undead line of spells, guaranteeing access), allow you to have literally unlimited armies of the undead controlled indirectly through spawning chains (be careful, lose one creature and every creature below it on the chain is suddenly uncontrolled!).


Many of these tools might not be available to you (chain spawn control is blatant cheese and will rightfully get you slaped upside the head, as a cleric you may not have access to the command undead spell, many campaigns don't allow the leadership or undead leadership feats, and almost none allow both on the same character), but even with a fraction of that army, you're going to get unwieldy to the point of unplayable and drag the whole game down around you. Unless the whole premise of the campaign is a mass combat thing themed on conquering nations where each of the characters leads a large army or organization. In that case, go to town, but otherwise you're going to want to focus on a smaller scale.

My recommendation? Raise that army of the living dead. But leave them at home. Make them a background element of your character. When you go on adventures, take at most one or two undead you control on your own, and then offer to loan an undead creature to any party member that wants one, and just order the creature to follow your friend's orders. Now, that might arguably be beyond the comprehension of a mindless undead. The Awaken Undead spell gets by this no questions asked, but most DMs who allow a necromancer in their game at all will let you do this by default so long as you aren't abusing it, as it makes the game run more smoothly then if you bring multiple creatures that you control yourself.

If you do things this way, then you can bring five or six undead on adventures and feel like a super cool necromancer, but your turn doesn't take noticeably longer then anybody elses because the control is split between your allies. And the other party members are going to be more forgiving of your unsavory hobbies if it means the fighter gets to have a cool flying skeletal nightmare to ride and the rogue gets to have his own flanking buddy and so on.

As for good undead to animate: outsiders are frequently good (although depending on your campaign outsiders killed in the natural world may not leave corpses). Dragons are good, but only if you use the skeleton and dragon zombie templates from the draconomicon, otherwise they're decent skeletons but meh overall. Giants make decent skeletons and zombies, and hydras are ok skeletons. Skeletal Nightmares make excellant mounts (since they fly magically rather then with wings they maintain the movement mode in undeath). Zombies in general are less useful, generally meatsacks and nothing more, but if you don't have access to nightmares you may need to animate zomies to get flying mounts (zombie dragons are great with the draconomicon, but ok otherwise, zombie wyverns are decent, too).

Note that the maximum hit dice of skeletons and zombies is limited first by the amount you can animate in a single casting (2x caster level), and second by a hard cap at 20 hit dice. This is the undead creature's hit dice, not the original creature's. Since the zombie template doubles the base creature's hit dice, that means that zombies can normally only be made from creatures of 10 hit dice or less - just another reason that smart necromancers use skeletons. Note that the zombie and skeleton dragon templates in draconomicon do not share the hard Hit Dice cap - they're limited only your caster level and the size of dragon corpse you can get your hands on - a big reason why they're so useful.

Also remember that class levels are lost before applying the templates, so humanoid zombies and skeletons are mostly worthless. This is the main reason that experienced necromancers laugh at the common peasant's fears that you're going to 'dig up grandma' to make her into an undead servant. I mean, her corpse might yield some decent spell componants, but certainly not a respectable bodyguard. Anyway, you're looking for outsiders, magical beasts, and other monsters with high physical stats, natural proficiencies, and racial hit dice (again, giants come to mind). elemental immunities are also kept as are movement modes, with the exception of flying for skeletons - only non-winged flight is maintained in their case, as mentioned above. Creatures with templates that improve their stats but don't increase their hit dice (half-anything, mostly) are particularly sought after.


Sadly, you don't get to pick what monster corpses your character will run into during the campaign (at least, not without polymorph any object or planar binding hijinks, and the latter may suffer from the aformentioned 'what happens when an outsider dies away from its home plane' issue), so the best advice is to memorize the skeleton and zombie templates, keep an eye out for monsters that would make good fodder, and just stuff their corpses in a bag of holding or portable hole to be raised later at your leisure.

Money is also an issue, unless you have some decent means of bipassing the componant cost (the 9th level spell 'Plague of Undead' or a cohort with two levels in the Pale Master class, for instance), so I generally recommend not animating everything you come accross. Save money and animate new servants as old ones or destroyed or become obsolete. For hordes of lesser undead you keep as background fluff at your home castle, see if your DM will let you build your home base on an onyx mine or something - so long as you're only asking for it for that kind of fluff use and are still paying for your actual combat minions out of pocket your DM may go for it.

[Zomg Zombies]

A note or two:

The bonus of ebarron skeletons and zombies is that they aren't mindless, they have rudimentary Int (1 or 2 I believe) so they can follow more complex tasks.

With the leadership feat, both living and undead, I'd agree with the advice to leave the main bulk at home; take a small contingent a-venturing with you, see if the necro can work out tactics with other players, for example: the fighter, who normally tanks instead gets a nice bone shield for the monsters to chew on, so instead s/he bullrushes into the middle of a group, with the skeletons ordered to hold action to follow in behind, now you got the critters split into two groups, and the fighter has an escape route if need be

Ideally, the main bulk of the minions should be doing 'other stuff' background, RP, type stuff based mostly on the storyline, and how the player(s) explain their leadership feat. I've been in games where players with large groups periodically write down what their gaggle intends to do, this period could be at the beginning of a session, or at the end, or weekly if you play multiple times during the week, or maybe the characters update their instructions only whenever their characters are physically home.

Finally, I got a bit of homebrew for y'all to chew on:
It'd be a rework of Animate dead, Create undead, and Create greater undead. Basically, you'd take out the individual 20HD cap for animate, but limit the base creatures to having 8d HD or less (6d, 4d...)
Then, create undead can work as it does now, or it can raise skeletons or zombies with 10d HD or less
And create greater undead can work the same or raise shambling hordes out of 12d HD critters.

Looking at the creature types I note that didn't break up as I'd have liked, it'd probably work better to just classify specific types to specific spells, so, Animate would get humanoid, monstrous humanoid, animal, and vermin; Create undead would get giant, fey, aberrant, magical beast; Create greater undead would get outsider, elemental, and dragons.

Then, as long as it fits inside the caster cap, any individual undead can be any size

[EoNhOeKnOwS]

How would one go about commanding/controlling a Hullathoin (16HD) from Fiend Folio? Would you need a spell to dominate it or would "charm" undead work on it? (Not charm but it's effect is like charm for undead)

Divine Caster level 14 with Rod of undead mastery and Deathbound domain (not sure if all these affect it)