Time Stop and Celerity - Loops?

[Tyger]

I know I am missing something here, but what is to prevent a caster from casting Celerity on the last "apparent" round of his Time Stop to give himself another Time Stop... repeat ad naseum?

I've googled this a bit today, and the standard answer seems to be the apparent time nature of Time Stop means that its still the same round, which means you only have one Swift / Immediate Action, so you can't cast Celerity again. But that doesn't fly at all, as by that logic, you'd only get one standard and one move action while in Time Stop, regardless of how many "apparent" rounds you get.

On that note, is there any reason that the Incatatrix's Metamagic Effect would not work on Time Stop? For example, Extending it via the ability?

[Yuki Akuma]

Can't Extend Time Stop - it doesn't have a duration.

You can Empower it though.

And no, there's no reason you can't apply metamagic to a Time Stop - why wouldn't you be able to?

(I have no idea how Celerity works, but my answer to your first question is "spell slots is what stops him". He only gets so many Time Stops...)

[Tyger]

Can't Extend Time Stop - it doesn't have a duration.

You can Empower it though.

Accepting that for the moment, what about the other part?

[Keld Denar]

Well, there is the debate about where the daze part of Celerity comes into play. Can you be dazed for "apparent" rounds, or only real rounds?

[ericgrau]

Wait... you can't already cast a regular time stop near the end of a time stop?

[Crow]

Wait... you can't already cast a regular time stop near the end of a time stop?

Seriously dude. Casting another celerity just means you waste a round of your new time stop being dazed. You only gain a round by using celerity if you are somehow immune to daze.

I see how he's trying to eke out extra actions by using the immediate for celerity, but again, unless you have daze immunity, you lose out on a swift, move, and standard action. Instead of just casting time stop again, which only wastes a standard action of the total time.

[Baveboi]

There is a somewhat worse loop that I explored before, against a group of pestering PCs.

Craft Contingent Spell: Time Stop x19 (Condition - End of Time Stop).

They landed one hit on the caster, than never again, and the caster cast only 1 real time stop. He was able to use to his LAST spell, even the level 1 and 0, before the 19d4s runed out.
If you put more Time Stops on arcane tattoos/scrolls etc, there's no telling how long you can go doing this ****hole.

(PS: I didn't kill the party, the wizard only used ridiculous spells. It was to show them that no matter how powerful they are I can still kick them in the nads if they 1 - don't behave, 2 - I can do so by following the rules)

[Ravens_cry]

(PS: I didn't kill the party, the wizard only used ridiculous spells. It was to show them that no matter how powerful they are I can still kick them in the nads if they 1 - don't behave, 2 - I can do so by following the rules)
Remind me to never, ever play a game with you as DM. I am not sure what your trying to convey here, but you sound like a <expletives redacted/>, with all due respect.

[EagleWiz]

Remind me to never, ever play a game with you as DM. I am not sure what your trying to convey here, but you sound like a <expletives redacted/>, with all due respect.

Sounds like Baveboi was trying to get his players to stop using cheese, non-lethaly. I don't see much of a problem with that.

[Foeofthelance]

Sounds like Baveboi was trying to get his players to stop using cheese, non-lethaly. I don't see much of a problem with that.

I'm just curious as to what he was casting, since he couldn't target/attack them for nearly 40-100 rounds.

[Keld Denar]

My guess would be...Bigsby's Shocking Gasp.

No effect, just a collective, sharp intake of air, generally made in outrage.

[thubby]

I'm just curious as to what he was casting, since he couldn't target/attack them for nearly 40-100 rounds.

i dont know what he actually did, but you can cast tons of delay spells, buffs, summons, etc.

[Foeofthelance]

i dont know what he actually did, but you can cast tons of delay spells, buffs, summons, etc.

Yeah, and most would have run out long before his time stops did.

"You strike the wizard, and for a moment there is a burst of light. As it fades, you detect the presence of strong magic, and he looks completely exhausted."

[Chilingsworth]

There is a somewhat worse loop that I explored before, against a group of pestering PCs.

Craft Contingent Spell: Time Stop x19 (Condition - End of Time Stop).

They landed one hit on the caster, than never again, and the caster cast only 1 real time stop. He was able to use to his LAST spell, even the level 1 and 0, before the 19d4s runed out.
If you put more Time Stops on arcane tattoos/scrolls etc, there's no telling how long you can go doing this ****hole.

(PS: I didn't kill the party, the wizard only used ridiculous spells. It was to show them that no matter how powerful they are I can still kick them in the nads if they 1 - don't behave, 2 - I can do so by following the rules)

Wouldn't all the contingent spells trigger at the same time? If so, wouldn't they overlap, rather than stack??:smallconfused:

[thubby]

Yeah, and most would have run out long before his time stops did.

plenty of buffs last minutes. spend the first rounds beefing up, the mid ones summoning, and the last few on delays

though the funniest thing I've seen done with something like this was major creation "lead"
it depends on how you rule things that fall out of the caster's possession, you may need a little airspace.
but regardless, at level 20 thats some 7 tons of metal that they probably cant do anything about.


Wouldn't all the contingent spells trigger at the same time? If so, wouldn't they overlap, rather than stack??:smallconfused:
could be wrong, but i believe contingencies happen after their trigger.

[Baveboi]

Wouldn't all the contingent spells trigger at the same time? If so, wouldn't they overlap, rather than stack??:smallconfused:

That wasn't the entire Condition Writting, but if it was, yes, it would cast all at the same time. But I don't know if they stack or not.
(The condition I used was 1st End of ONE time stop, 2nd End of TWO time stops, 3rd End of TRHEE time stops, etc. It's a bit complicated.)


To everyone wondering what the pesky wizard did cast; He was a big moron and kept casting many useless spells one after another, like Empowered Maximised Ray of Frost or Quickened Flare and things like that. Basically when the Time Stop finally ended the players decided that the magical stupidity was so humongous that the goddess of magic herself came down from heavens and smote the little guy into nothingness. To guarantee that no one could remember that ever happened she re-wrote the past 2 minutes of history and they never met the guy. (Everyone was laughing their faces off by now, of course. I even cast a 6th Daze spell with no save...)
They stopped with the overflowing cheese a bit, but them everyone was happy.

[Myth]

What setting was that ran in?

[Baveboi]

What setting was that ran in?

Forgotten Realms. Mystra is well known for punishing those who use magic inadequatelly and I can't think of something more inadequate than 19d4s turns of time stop (except that other time when I did a 11th level 10 days timestop...)
In any case it went to show the players they had to take the Slayers Vibe down a level.

A Maximized Fireball or two is okay, but an Enlarged Empowered Widen Maximized Fireball was tid bit hard to swallow. Expecially as a 6th level spell.

[Eldariel]

i dont know what he actually did, but you can cast tons of delay spells, buffs, summons, etc.

It's possible to cast basically anything relevant in Time Stop. It only prevents direct damage spells which you wouldn't be using anyways; creating an inescapable AoE effect trap that deals even just 200 damage a round should be enough to deal with most things. Then again, I don't get what you'd need 100 actions for. 4-5 is plenty.

That said, as it's possible to recover spell slots infinitely if you really put your mind to it, a loop of casting N slots N times where N approaches infinity is perfectly doable.

[Chilingsworth]

A Maximized Fireball or two is okay, but an Enlarged Empowered Widen Maximized Fireball was tid bit hard to swallow. Expecially as a 6th level spell.

How did they claim to have that ability?? :smalleek:

[Eldariel]

How did they claim to have that ability?? :smalleek:

I could tell you a dozen different ways to achieve the same end. Interested?

[arguskos]

I could tell you a dozen different ways to achieve the same end. Interested?
Actually, yes, I am. I want to see twelve separate and distinct methods of doing that. GOGOGO.

[Dr Bwaa]

Actually, yes, I am. I want to see twelve separate and distinct methods of doing that. GOGOGO.

Does applying the metamagicks in different orders count as separate ways? :smallwink:

@Chilingsworth: A little Arcane Thesis (for example) goes a long way. Incantatrix too. Though honestly the fact that the player was pulling shenanigans with Fireball (instead of, say, Enervation) does indicate a certain amount of restraint.

[Baveboi]

Please... No gogogoing.
There are frikkin thousands of metamagic feats/classes and whatnot that can do that kind of thing. One, for starters, is Ultimate Magus.
Things like sudden metamagic, matamagic spell focus, slow spell, ritual spell... :smallsigh: There is no number of feats and spells and whatyouhave that can't work humongous bonuses to metamagic.


If you wish a taste to that power without going as nuts as I am, I recomend you take a look at the Book of Erotic Fantasy and Complete Mage. Metaphysical Spellshapper(BoEF) and Ultimate Magus(CM) work a MEAN combo together.

[Eldariel]

Actually, yes, I am. I want to see twelve separate and distinct methods of doing that. GOGOGO.

If I give you the pieces to work with, will this work?


Eh, regardless, here you go:
- Dweomerkeeper [CDivine Web Enhancement]
- Incantatrix [Player's Guide to Faerun]

Those two reduce the cost of all metamagic you apply by 1. This, combined with various single point reductions, can be used to bring Widened Empowered Maximized Enlarged Fireball down to level 6 slot (hell, it's normally only level 13 so all we need is to cut 7 levels out of it; those cut 4 already).

- Halruaan Elder [Shining South]
- Hathran [Player's Guide to Faerun]
- Red Wizard of Thay [Faerun Campaign Settings]

These get us Circle Magic, which enables us to get spell levels from our Circle (Simulacrums, Reformations, Dominates and the like are a simple means of filling the circle) and invest them in applying Maximize and Empower for free. This gets us down to very agreeable level 7 slot, which we then can combine with...something for the last level.

- Easy Metamagic [DR325]
- Practical Metamagic [RotD]
- Metamagic School Focus [CMage]

Those cut one level from one metamagic away. Shoot away.

- Arcane Thesis [PHBII]

Cuts 4 levels away, enables reduction to 0. Shoot away.

- Spelldancer [MoF]

Free metamagic application via. Spelldance, nothing to see here. Move along.

- Dragonwrought [RoTD] Kobolds taking Improved Metamagic [DMG]

lol

- Shadowcraft Mage [RoS]

Well, he can replicate way higher level Evocations from lower level slots. And it's more real than reality. Eh, Iono, just figured it's worth mentioning.


So...umm, yeah, whatever. That's 12 ingredients you can mix and match as you desire in about extremely many ways to reduce metamagic costs; just make sure to hit exactly 6 as it'd be a pity to get them too low.

EDIT: Ultimate Magus can't do that tho. The spell they can metamagic can't be metamagicked beforehand making it rather lackluster for true abuse (good thing too). And Metaphysical Spellshaper is decidedly 3rd party and for a v. good reason. And Sudden Metamagic is 1/day making it a real dent on your feat economy. Tho I guess strictly speaking you could achieve the above, once per day, with it. I guess Recaster [RoE] could do something too. Bleh.

[Boci]

Actually, yes, I am. I want to see twelve separate and distinct methods of doing that. GOGOGO.

Okay, group effort, I'll do the easy ones:

1. Metamagic rods

2. Tainted scholar substitute metamagic for con damage

3. Feat from HoH ignore metamagic level increase by inflicting con damage on allies

4. Metamagic reducers (arcane thesis drops it down to 8, so two easy metamagic and you're done)

5. Incanatrix ignore MM level increase 2/day

6. Anime mage ignore MM level increase 2 / day

Edit: Dam those arcane swordsages

[arguskos]

Eeeeeh, I don't count all three circle magic classes as separate entities for this discussion. They don't bring something unique to the table, and stacking them is pointless. 10/12. Still impressive though. Consider my curiosity sated... for now.

Whenever you make an outlandish claim, I'll be there. It's like the dumbest superpower ever.

[Ernir]

Eeeeeh, I don't count all three circle magic classes as separate entities for this discussion. They don't bring something unique to the table, and stacking them is pointless. 10/12. Still impressive though. Consider my curiosity sated... for now.

Whenever you make an outlandish claim, I'll be there. It's like the dumbest superpower ever.

Add Residual Magic and Empowered Spellshards to get 12/12.

[Eldariel]

Whenever you make an outlandish claim, I'll be there. It's like the dumbest superpower ever.

Then it's good we're talking about a game where you can literally do anything making backing up my claims easy, ya? :smallbiggrin:

[arguskos]

Then it's good we're talking about a game where you can literally do anything making backing up my claims easy, ya? :smallbiggrin:
I here point to the Tarrasque challenge. :smallsigh: Silly AP, thinking he could win constantly. I feel bad for Terry.

[archon_huskie]

I know I am missing something here, but what is to prevent a caster from casting Celerity on the last "apparent" round of his Time Stop to give himself another Time Stop... repeat ad naseum?

On that note, is there any reason that the Incatatrix's Metamagic Effect would not work on Time Stop? For example, Extending it via the ability?

The DM saying "No, that is stupid cheese."

[tundrawalker1]

The DM saying "No, that is stupid cheese."

Ok, but is there a reason in the rules why you cannot do it other than DM handwavery?

And wow, did that topic ever go off the rails for most of the posts.