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comicshorse
2010-12-07, 07:56 PM
Reading the current 4E vs 3E Thread a thought occured to me. While I love the background for Shamans and Mages in 3E I was well aware that summoning Elementals was just not as good as summoning Spirits. Sadly though the 4E way of solving this robs the types of magicians of their difference in background (IMHO)
So does anybody have any home-brewed ideas for keeping Shamans and Mages different but equal in power ?

toturi
2010-12-08, 02:36 AM
Reading the current 4E vs 3E Thread a thought occured to me. While I love the background for Shamans and Mages in 3E I was well aware that summoning Elementals was just not as good as summoning Spirits. Sadly though the 4E way of solving this robs the types of magicians of their difference in background (IMHO)
So does anybody have any home-brewed ideas for keeping Shamans and Mages different but equal in power ?
I thought shaman spirits were limited to domain lines and a shaman could only have 1(or a very limited number of) spirit while a mage could have a whole pack of elementals ready in reserve once he summons them (though there is a limit to the number of elementals, IIRC, it is more than what the shaman can have) and elementals were not affected by domain lines.

Pyrite
2010-12-08, 03:23 AM
I thought shaman spirits were limited to domain lines and a shaman could only have 1(or a very limited number of) spirit while a mage could have a whole pack of elementals ready in reserve once he summons them (though there is a limit to the number of elementals, IIRC, it is more than what the shaman can have) and elementals were not affected by domain lines.

That's 3rd Ed. He's clearly talking 4th ed, which standardized and homogenized the various magical traditions. Basically now everyone summons the same types of spirits, and just calls them spirits, elementals, angels, etc. as appropriate to their tradition.

comicshorse
2010-12-08, 12:55 PM
That's 3rd Ed. He's clearly talking 4th ed, which standardized and homogenized the various magical traditions. Basically now everyone summons the same types of spirits, and just calls them spirits, elementals, angels, etc. as appropriate to their tradition.

Yes thats exactly the problem I have with Magicians in 4th Ed. They just seem the same I liked the differenfces between the two types in previous editions


I thought shaman spirits were limited to domain lines and a shaman could only have 1(or a very limited number of) spirit while a mage could have a whole pack of elementals ready in reserve once he summons them (though there is a limit to the number of elementals, IIRC, it is more than what the shaman can have) and elementals were not affected by domain lines.

Yes Shaman spirits are restricted by Domain lines but a Shaman can just summon a new one and , as far as I remember, he could have as many Spirits as his Charisma stat. The mild inconvenience of having to summon a new spirit when you change Domain ( particulalrly as you can leave the old one obeying your last command behind in the old domain) didn't even slightly balance out the fact that Elementals cost a 1,000 NuY per Force point and, which was much worse, couldn't be summoned on the fly.

Winterwind
2010-12-08, 01:12 PM
Yes Shaman spirits are restricted by Domain lines but a Shaman can just summon a new one and , as far as I remember, he could have as many Spirits as his Charisma stat.No, just one spirit per domain. Though I suppose you could just summon a new one, losing control over the old one but, of course, having it still obey your last command.

Other than being able to have multiple Elementals in action at once, I guess the main advantage is that Mages can sleep off all drain they suffered from summoning their Elementals, a Shaman pretty much has to deal with it. Which both puts the Shaman at risk and limits the power of spirits they can use greatly.

Also, a notable difference between Elementals and Spirits is that Elementals tend to have stats and powers much, much, much better suited for combat, while Spirits usually are more utilitarian, but pretty weak in combat. Of course, that could easily be taken as another argument in the favour of Shamans...

As for your actual question, I wished I could help, but unfortunately I know pretty much nothing about 4th edition... :smallfrown:

Tehnar
2010-12-08, 01:27 PM
I didn't play 3E, but in 4th edition I encourage shamans playing to take a mentor spirit quality. Or I just make up a quest and give it to them; something to tie in with initiation.

Other then that we are not really focusing on the awakened part of shadowrun. Magic is present, and one player plays a shaman, but my group prefers the technological aspect of Shadowrun. They also perceive mages to be balanced.

Though we are finishing the DotA: Dusk today so I will probably ramp up the magic in the future.

Mark Hall
2010-12-08, 03:57 PM
Actually, I kind of like the differences... it represents the changing in the magical SOTA. Hermetics have, in the 20 years since we were introduced to the 6th world, learned how to summon Nature Spirits; Shamans have learned to summon elementals.

Elementals, incidentally, have a distinct advantage over nature spirits: Time. You can set an elemental to do something for a long period of time, whereas you have to resummon a nature spirit as sunrise and sunset. Need some help learning a spell? Talk to the elementals, since they'll stay with you for a long time. Need your house clean? Talk to a nature spirit, since they'll do it while you're away.

Lost Demiurge
2010-12-09, 09:11 AM
Easy enough to keep hermetics and shamans different. Forbid hermetics from taking the mentor spirit quality. That's a lot of flavor, and some mechanical difference right there.

Also have shamans require spells taught by instruction... Preferrably by their mentor spirit, or another shaman in the same tradition. Hermetics? Just let'em go browsing or shopping for the formula they want. No fuss, no muss.