Wish Loops?

[Dragon Star]

so ive heard about wish loops and how gate and ploymorph are both broken, but i dont see ho. i mean, i see possibility of brokeness, but not how to do it. could i be informed of these tricks and any other notable ones?

edit: actually, i just wanted to know how. i dont have any games im dming now, nor do i have any spellcasters, but as dm id like to stop them, and as pc, maybe id use them, if my dm annoyed me enough. :smallbiggrin:

[mikeejimbo]

One way: summon an Efreet, use his wishes to get candles of Invocation which you use to summon an Efreet.

Edit: OP clearly wishes to know these so that he can guard against them when he DMs and I do not condone broken combos.

[Elric VIII]

I think it has something do do with Polymorphing with a bunch of templates, but I'm not 100% on that.

[Douglas]

No, Polymorph doesn't allow templates. The brokenness of Polymorph and Gate comes from the fact that they essentially say "Look through every monster manual and every book with more monsters, pick whatever you want within X restrictions. You get what you picked." Even with the restrictions, the sheer number of options and how much the details of their capabilities vary, plus the fact that you're adding that on top of the existing capabilities of a character (either by the traits of your original form that you keep when Polymorphed or by the fact that the called creature is a whole extra creature separate from your character for Gate), means that each spell gives an insanely versatile set of options and there's practically guaranteed to be something you can choose that is overwhelmingly powerful for whatever situation you face. Also, you get to choose from this enormous array of options at the time you cast the spell, allowing you to perfectly tailor your choice for your exact circumstances despite having no advance notice.

[BeholderSlayer]

Polymorph is broken because it solves everything. Need to fight? Hydra. Need to fly? There's a form for that. Need to get out of a locked room filling with water? Xorn and earthglide through the floor or walls. Etc.

[The Glyphstone]

And Gate is broken because it lets you call in absurdly overpowered things to do your fighting for you - HD of 2x your caster level if one at a time, without having to pay them anything (pick the right Epic creature, and it getting to mindlessly slaughter some pathetic mortals for lulz will likely make it happy enough that it won't come 'complain' to you afterwards).

Example - a Gibbering Orb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gibberingOrb.htm), CR27, can be called by any caster capable of casting gate (minimum CL17, so 27 out of 34 HD). And that Orb will be capable of soloing pretty much anything pre-epic itself, netting you far more XP/fight than you lose dumping 1,000/fight into summoning it.

[Soren Hero]

here's another scenario with planar binding:

planar bind an efreeti (10 HD). ask it to give you one wish, and in exchange you promise to give it the other two wishes. use your wish to cast simulacrum on the efreeti, with the clause that it is controlled by you (the character). give the efreeti its two wishes. you now have a personal efreeti simulacrum who can cast wish 3/day for you. this might slide with most dms if you promise not to abuse it, because it can offer many interesting rp scenario.

the gudda: use that simulacrum to cast three wishes of simulacrum all tied to you and so on and so on. after 5 sets of this cycle (the new ones casting 3 more or 3^5) you have 244 efreeti simulacrums who have collectively 732 wishes/day. proceed to break your game

[JaronK]

The basic wish loop is to get an Efreeti via Planar Binding, and then make your deal: if it gives you your wishes in both letter and spirit, you'll give it 12,500gp worth of trade goods and gold. Your first two wishes are for Candles of Invocation (well under the price limit for wishes) and your third is for a pair of chests of gold, such that the total value of the gold and chests is 25,000gp and each chest, with it's gold, is worth the same amount as the other.

Give the Efreeti one as payment for his services. Use the candles to cast Gate and bring more Efreetis in. Do similar tricks with them. Endless wishes, and the Efreetis are well paid for their services (since they can't use the wishes on themselves, but value gold greatly).

This relies on two things: Planar Binding giving you access to the myriad abilities found on all outsiders (and elementals) of appropriate HD, and the fact that Candles of Invocation are far too good for their cost. Also, that Gate is insane.

JaronK

[Myth]

One thing to know OP: Wish is broken by RAW. With a decent DM it is powerful and very versatile, with a chance of "OH-SHI this is a TPK, how much XP to get out of this mess?"

[Incanur]

According to one of my players, the correct option is to wish for 25,000 gp worth of marijuana and then cast flame strike. Not as broken as these others options but perhaps more flavorful. :smallamused:

[Curmudgeon]

Such Wish loops only work if a DM isn't paying attention.

The D&D world is full of spellcasters who can (directly or through items) cast Gate.
An Efreeti has the capability to grant 3 Wishes daily. This ability has obvious value.
It's in the best interest of any Efreeti to use up this valuable 1/day SLA, for the best possible return, as soon as it becomes available.
Consequently, you'll hardly ever be able to Gate in an Efreeti who hasn't already expended this ability in the first minute of its personal day.

[Incanur]

Such Wish loops only work if a DM isn't paying attention.]

Or if they're adamantly RAW. The ridiculous power campaign involves lots of hired minions, spellcasting services (PAO), and then candles of invocation. Or Pun-Pun if you're playing in FR.

[Dr Bwaa]

According to one of my players, the correct option is to wish for 25,000 gp worth of marijuana and then cast flame strike. Not as broken as these others options but perhaps more flavorful. :smallamused:

lulz.

As a DM, it's reasonably easy to keep the infinite-combos from going off (Gate, Wish, Epic Solar loops, etc) by saying basically "you have run out of summonable efreet/solars/whatever in the multiverse. Sorry." Of course, they can still get as powerful as you let them, but there are plenty of reasons to cut them short when these shenanigans start up.

[grimbold]

Polymorph is broken because it solves everything. Need to fight? Hydra. Need to fly? There's a form for that. Need to get out of a locked room filling with water? Xorn and earthglide through the floor or walls. Etc.

exactly
polymorph lets you do anything anytime

[Incanur]

You can always say the gods/elemental overlords don't allow that kind of crap.

[Curmudgeon]

Or if they're adamantly RAW.
Nothing at all in my post went against either the letter or spirit of RAW. The rules specify 1) that services have value (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices); 2) that SLAs generally work just like the spells of the same name (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities); and 3) they specify the specific value of a Wish spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell). I'm just thinking things through (as any good DM should do) and connecting these pieces of the RAW.