Least Optimal Wizard Spells

[NineThePuma]

What spells are LEAST optimal. Useless, rapidly outscaled, or so circumstantial that they can't be used effectively.

Just wondering =3 Consider this an Optimization challenge to be as unoptimal as possible.

[Tvtyrant]

Tenser's Floating Disk

[Cuaqchi]

Tenser's Floating Disk

Can be used as a level 1 version of Levitate. Not the greatest spell, but definately not the worst. At level 1 you have enough to carry an elf or halfling over a trapped area to work at disarming, and at higher levels it can be used to keep your feet dry.

Least valuable spell is one that does minimal damage with a chance to reduce it further. (ex. Meteor Swarm)

[NineThePuma]

Tenser's Floating Disk is a weak spell, but useful in certain circumstances is what I got out of that.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Detect Undead is very situational, to say the least.

The Whelm line... I'm not going for the easy pun. Let's just say I'm not impressed.

But I think Death Throes takes the cake. Turn your own death into a TPK, and have no body left to raise from the dead, for a pretty high level spell slot. Even if it was actually useful, it only triggers when you die.

[Tvtyrant]

I don't think meaty swarm is as bad as people give it hate for; it hits as a ranged touch attack and doesn't allow the target it hits a save against damage. Yeah it isn't fantastic, but 32d6 damage without a save isn't anything to sneer at either. I still can't figure out why people hate it to the degree it is hated; you get 32d6 without a save...

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I don't think meaty swarm is as bad as people give it hate for; it hits as a ranged touch attack and doesn't allow the target it hits a save against damage. Yeah it isn't fantastic, but 32d6 damage without a save isn't anything to sneer at either. I still can't figure out why people hate it to the degree it is hated; you get 32d6 without a save...If you define levels of suboptimality as the difference in power between the spell in question and the most powerful spell of its level, then Meteor Swarm is awful, because it's competing with Gate and Shapechange and Time Stop. The weird thing about that definition is Meteor Swarm becomes pretty good if you kick it down to level 7 or so. I think the hate is also exacerbated because it's the stereotypical level 9 wizard spell (outside of Time Stop maybe). It basically epitomizes the cognitive dissonance in 3e's creation, where some damage is supposed to compete with spells that completely change the nature of the game.

[HunterOfJello]

Hold Portal, Detect Secret Doors, Chill Touch, Erase, Touch of Fatigue

None of these spells are wroth preparing at the beginning of the day. If you really need one, they could be halfway decent on a scroll or in a spell slot that you left empty. Otherwise, you'll never end up using these spells.

The ones that irk me the most are the touch spells that aren't even worth using. The only way you'll even sanely use them is with a familiar, and they're still a waste of your turn and your familiar's turn.


~

As far as higher level spells not holding up in comparison to others their level:

Rage and Keen Edge are terrible in comparison to Haste. Never mind comparing Rage to Enlarge Person which is at a lower spell level.

[Mando Knight]

Can be used as a level 1 version of Levitate. Not the greatest spell, but definately not the worst. At level 1 you have enough to carry an elf or halfling over a trapped area to work at disarming, and at higher levels it can be used to keep your feet dry.

It's also good if you need to carry heavy stuff: starting roughly at level 8, it's essentially a pack mule that doesn't care about going indoors or weird stuff like that, and only costs one low-level spell slot. You don't need to drag the barbarian when he's unconscious, just slip him onto the Disk and it'll pull him along merrily like nothing was wrong (assuming you were at a high enough level to summon a strong enough disk).

[Eloel]

I don't think meaty swarm is as bad as people give it hate for; it hits as a ranged touch attack and doesn't allow the target it hits a save against damage. Yeah it isn't fantastic, but 32d6 damage without a save isn't anything to sneer at either. I still can't figure out why people hate it to the degree it is hated; you get 32d6 without a save...
32d6 is 112 on average
Twinned Orb of Fire (a huge waste of spell slot without MM reducers), deals 30d6 (105 average) off of a 8th level slot.
Maximized Twinned Scorching Ray (ditto on MM costs) deals 144 damage off a 9th level slot.
If you optimize, it's possible to get gajillions of damage AND status effects out of 9th level slots. Sorcerer/Spellwarp Sniper with a focus on Wings of Flurry is one that comes to mind.

Meteor Swarm sucks.

Edit: I'm assuming you absolutely want to deal damage. Else, stuff like Gate is insta-win.

Another Edit: And if you're trying to 'kill off' an enemy with low HP, Power Word: Kill does what it says.

[Tvtyrant]

If you define levels of suboptimality as the difference in power between the spell in question and the most powerful spell of its level, then Meteor Swarm is awful, because it's competing with Gate and Shapechange and Time Stop. The weird thing about that definition is Meteor Swarm becomes pretty good if you kick it down to level 7 or so. I think the hate is also exacerbated because it's the stereotypical level 9 wizard spell (outside of Time Stop maybe). It basically epitomizes the cognitive dissonance in 3e's creation, where some damage is supposed to compete with spells that completely change the nature of the game.

If you compare a level 20 character with Shapechange or Gate the character loses; I agree that its not much compared to the most broken spells in the game, but there are spells way worse compared to their level. Arcane Eye takes a fourth level slot and is utterly pointless; it moves at the same rate you do and takes ten minutes to cast. You can scry by this point! And in a level you get a spell that lets you cast this multiple times in a minute and lasts 60 times longer.

But anywho, not really worth arguing over.

[Eloel]

I think the award for the WorstTrapEvah should go to Tenser's Transformation. Seriously, "lose your spellcasting". You're not only wasting a 6th level slot, a Bull's Strength potion and a round, but you're unable to contribute to the battle for CL rounds.

Then again, Fighter is stuck in that form for his whole life :smallfrown:

[Tvtyrant]

I think the award for the WorstTrapEvah should go to Tenser's Transformation. Seriously, "lose your spellcasting". You're not only wasting a 6th level slot, a Bull's Strength potion and a round, but you're unable to contribute to the battle for CL rounds.

Then again, Fighter is stuck in that form for his whole life :smallfrown:

lol, Tenser made a terrible line of spells. Would not buy again!

[HunterOfJello]

The Freedom spell is also so limited that a wizard would only learn it if their best friend happened to be stuck in the center of the planet.

Statue is just so dumb that it can be copied by street performers or a basic adventurer with a Ring of Sustenance and a good disguise kit.

[ericgrau]

Mostly the situational spells, but then that's what scrolls are for. That's also why level 2 is so flooded with them. Ya, there are good level 2 spells too.

Divinations tend to be the biggest culprit of situational spells. I mean, man that spell would be awesome for finding out about this thing coming up, but too bad you prepared the wrong divination for that!

[dgnslyr]

Well, to go along with Tenser's Transformation, I guess Mental Pinnacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm) is pretty bad.

Hrm, at least Tenser's Floating Disk has some Fun applications. I'm sure there are plenty of creative things you could do with a magic disk that carries 100lb/CL.

[Jallorn]

32d6 is 112 on average
Twinned Orb of Fire (a huge waste of spell slot without MM reducers), deals 30d6 (105 average) off of a 8th level slot.
Maximized Twinned Scorching Ray (ditto on MM costs) deals 144 damage off a 9th level slot.
If you optimize, it's possible to get gajillions of damage AND status effects out of 9th level slots. Sorcerer/Spellwarp Sniper with a focus on Wings of Flurry is one that comes to mind.

Meteor Swarm sucks.

Edit: I'm assuming you absolutely want to deal damage. Else, stuff like Gate is insta-win.

Another Edit: And if you're trying to 'kill off' an enemy with low HP, Power Word: Kill does what it says.

I should like to point out that you're only considering the combat applications of the spell. Now, I'll agree that Meteor Swarm could do with being a level lower, but it's still a nice spell for blasting through walls. Also, it can be a fun image, and a nice way to intimidate an army.

[Tvtyrant]

32d6 is 112 on average
Twinned Orb of Fire (a huge waste of spell slot without MM reducers), deals 30d6 (105 average) off of a 8th level slot.
Maximized Twinned Scorching Ray (ditto on MM costs) deals 144 damage off a 9th level slot.
If you optimize, it's possible to get gajillions of damage AND status effects out of 9th level slots. Sorcerer/Spellwarp Sniper with a focus on Wings of Flurry is one that comes to mind.

Another Edit: And if you're trying to 'kill off' an enemy with low HP, Power Word: Kill does what it says.

If you are using none core sure; you also only get the ray off of those spells while the MS also blasts everything in a forty foot area. I'm not saying its a good spell, but if you need to start throwing out multiple splat book combinations to be better then it maybe your trying to hard.

Again; I don't think its a good spell. I just think its better then "its the worst spell in the game" as was stated above.


Edit: I would like to push forward Energy Drain as being horrible. You get twice the power of Enervation, for more then twice its spell slot level. You would average the same amount of levels stolen by using maximized enervation, but with a lower spell slot.

[NineThePuma]

Orb of Fire is splat. Scorch, not so much.

Edit: I'm making an Elf Wizard who makes items and such and has horrible taste in spells. So go nuts.

[Tvtyrant]

Orb of Fire is splat. Scorch, not so much.

Twin Ray is. Wings of Flurry are. All of the things you posted depend on splat.

[Marnath]

32d6 is 112 on average
Twinned Orb of Fire (a huge waste of spell slot without MM reducers), deals 30d6 (105 average) off of a 8th level slot.
Maximized Twinned Scorching Ray (ditto on MM costs) deals 144 damage off a 9th level slot.
If you optimize, it's possible to get gajillions of damage AND status effects out of 9th level slots. Sorcerer/Spellwarp Sniper with a focus on Wings of Flurry is one that comes to mind.

Meteor Swarm sucks.


Those spells can hurt 2-6 people or thereabouts, depending on aim. Meteor swarm hurts everyone within a 40 foot radius. You know how many people fit inside 4 40 foot radii?

It's not quite as awesome against single targets as the other two, but in my opinion it was probably designed more to kill obscene numbers of low level mooks. Like say, your nation is at war. Drop one or two of those along the front line and suddenly you've changed the course of the war.

It's not like that comes up often in campaigns, but it's really funny when it does.

*edit: the point about core vs non-core is a good one too.

[Godskook]

Summon Monster I is a horrible spell, imho, simply cause of duration factors. By the time its a useful spell, the name changed(to "Summon dead celestial monkey") and it becomes a utility spell for when your usual trapmonkey needs to learn how to do his job.

[Incanur]

Well, to go along with Tenser's Transformation, I guess Mental Pinnacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm) is pretty bad.

No way. Mental pinnacle is a certified tool of god (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870586/CantripNs_Guide_to_Transmutation_Spells:_Gods_Gift s). Transformation, while orders of magnitude worse, also has its uses. It's something to cast after draconic polymorph or shapechange when you feel like showing you can rule at melee combat too. A bragging spell, essentially. Using limited wish for divine power perhaps produces better results but nothing says confidence like renouncing the ability to cast spells for a minute or two.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

To be fair, Mental Pinnacle only really becomes useful when you can use sixth level spells as tools to improve spell slot efficiency instead of top-shelf game changers.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The only problem with Mental Pinnacle is that all of the powers it gives are mind-effecting. Excluding that, due to the fact that CL boosts are much more common than manifester level boosts, it gives amazing spell-slot efficiency, as has been already mentioned.

[Godskook]

To be fair, Mental Pinnacle only really becomes useful when you can use sixth level spells as tools to improve spell slot efficiency instead of top-shelf game changers.

Its more topshelf if you can de-personalize it and drop it on a non-spellcasting teammate.

[WarrenZig]

Clone, because it's a level 8 spell that takes 2d4 months to resurrect someone when you could just use a scroll when they died. Also you lose your gear.

[Tvtyrant]

Clone, because it's a level 8 spell that takes 2d4 months to resurrect someone when you could just use a scroll when they died. Also you lose your gear.

True, but you can use clone to get the bodies for a flesh golem without having to resort to grave robbing. Plus it costs less then the diamonds that Clerics use.

[Zergrusheddie]

Transformation is definitely on the list.
Weird makes a suboptimal 4th level spell into an AoE 9th level. It allows two saves, though failing the Will Save but making the Fortitude Save does Stun the opponent for one round. Why not just do Wail of the Banshee?

Interposing Hand is pretty lame. "Oh boy, +4 AC and a reduce the movement of a person who moves towards me!" It's the same level as Overland Flight, so why exactly do you need it to keep you safe? The thing is also very easy to hit and has the same HP you do. All of the Hand line of spells are underwhelming.

Mage's Sword is probably going to be one of the least optimal spells. The level 13 Wizard burns 250 gold and gets to attack every round at about +20 for 4d6+3.

[WarrenZig]

True, but you can use clone to get the bodies for a flesh golem without having to resort to grave robbing. Plus it costs less then the diamonds that Clerics use.

Stone Shape some limbs then use Stone to Flesh, Gagoosh!

[Tvtyrant]

Stone Shape some limbs then use Stone to Flesh, Gagoosh!

Well played sir, well played.

What happens if you cast animate object on a rock statue and then cast stone to flesh?

[Godskook]

Clone, because it's a level 8 spell that takes 2d4 months to resurrect someone when you could just use a scroll when they died. Also you lose your gear.

1.The spell works even without the body.(The flesh sample can be taken *LONG* before death, if desired)

2.The spell uses your current ECL *or* your ECL when the sample was taken, whichever is better.

3.Can be fully cast and prepared prior to leaving home, meaning the "time spent dead" is negligible.

4.If your party can't recover your gear, they weren't recovering your body for any of the cleric spells either.

In other words: "Clone: don't leave home without one"

[WarrenZig]

1.The spell works even without the body.(The flesh sample can be taken *LONG* before death, if desired)

2.The spell uses your current ECL *or* your ECL when the sample was taken, whichever is better.

3.Can be fully cast and prepared prior to leaving home, meaning the "time spent dead" is negligible.

4.If your party can't recover your gear, they weren't recovering your body for any of the cleric spells either.

In other words: "Clone: don't leave home without one"

1. You don't even need a piece of them to bring someone back with True Res.

2. Actually is says if the original lost levels since the sample was taken and died at a lower level than the clone, the clone is one level lower than the original when it died. So it's always your level -1 when you died.

3. 2-8 months time for it to mature though, not very interesting to spend 8 months before adventuring.

4. My party would just take it for themselves......they've done it before.

Also couldn't you use a Raise Dead scroll + contingency to activate on your death?

And about the animated rock statue, if it failed it's save it would become an inanimate corpse until it was turned into a statue again before animate ended.

Back on topic. Prestidigitation, useless but that's kind of the point?

[SITB]

1. You don't even need a piece of them to bring someone back with True Res.

2. Actually is says if the original lost levels since the sample was taken and died at a lower level than the clone, the clone is one level lower than the original when it died. So it's always your level -1 when you died.

3. 2-8 months time for it to mature though, not very interesting to spend 8 months before adventuring.

4. My party would just take it for themselves......they've done it before.

It's useful for BBEG and revivng oneself without clerical help, it's not so much as a combat spell as an insurance against death.

[Mordokai]

Back on topic. Prestidigitation, useless but that's kind of the point?

I was under the impression prestidigitation is the single most useful cantrip?

[LordBlades]

Except with clone you can die, wake up in the clone, and then Greater teleport back to the combat on the next round if you feel like it.

[The_Admiral]

1.The spell works even without the body.(The flesh sample can be taken *LONG* before death, if desired)

2.The spell uses your current ECL *or* your ECL when the sample was taken, whichever is better.

3.Can be fully cast and prepared prior to leaving home, meaning the "time spent dead" is negligible.

4.If your party can't recover your gear, they weren't recovering your body for any of the cleric spells either.

In other words: "Clone: don't leave home without one"

I have a sudden urge to play D&D with Paranoia fluff

[Temotei]

I was under the impression prestidigitation is the single most useful cantrip?

It might be. It's up there with launch bolt and a couple of others.

[WarrenZig]

Except with clone you can die, wake up in the clone, and then Greater teleport back to the combat on the next round if you feel like it.

Hehehe, a man you just killed teleports naked right in front of you during combat......Must use this in a future game.

Though honestly each round is 6 seconds and it's probably gonna take a couple min to get your barrings and prepare to join the fray.

[NineThePuma]

Less high level, more low levels =| Really.

[candycorn]

Level 0: Know Direction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/knowDirection.htm).

Level 1: Endure Elements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/endureElements.htm)

Level 2: Soften Earth and Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/softenEarthAndStone.htm)

Level 3: Dininish Plants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/diminishPlants.htm)

Level 4: Antiplant Shell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antiplantShell.htm)

Level 5: Scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm)

Level 6: Stone Tell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneTell.htm)
Circle of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/circleOfDeath.htm)

Level 7: Transmute Treasure to Crappy Treasure (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteMetalToWood.htm)

Level 8: Power Word Stun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordStun.htm)

Level 9: Mass Cure Critical Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureCriticalWoundsMass.htm)

These aren't useless spells. They are, however, either very situational, or strictly weaker than other options.

[Crow]

I am surprised that somebody said Chill Touch is a bad spell. You get multiple touches with it as you level up which gives it added value not found many other places, and while it's not *great* against most enemies, it absolutely womps against undead, who must make a *will* save or flee as if panicked. Pair it up with something that doesn't require you to step in range like Spectral Hand, or deliver the touch with your familiar and it becomes very very nice.

Even undead with hefty turning resistance cower when faced with this spell.

All in all, a great spell for a low level wizard (or even a moderately higher level wizard) to prepare due to the excellent value you get from just one level 1 slot. Especially if you're expecting a lot of action that day.

[Myth]

Those spells can hurt 2-6 people or thereabouts, depending on aim. Meteor swarm hurts everyone within a 40 foot radius. You know how many people fit inside 4 40 foot radii?

It's not quite as awesome against single targets as the other two, but in my opinion it was probably designed more to kill obscene numbers of low level mooks. Like say, your nation is at war. Drop one or two of those along the front line and suddenly you've changed the course of the war.

It's not like that comes up often in campaigns, but it's really funny when it does.

*edit: the point about core vs non-core is a good one too.

Or.. you know. Just Gate in a Solar that can single handedly kill every enemy soldier.

[eggynack]

Or.. you know. Just Gate in a Solar that can single handedly kill every enemy soldier.

Yeah, but that has an xp cost. Also, it seems somewhat unfair to always use the most optimal spells possible in what is osensibly a worst spell thread. For a true comparison you should use similarly low-op spells that remain better as a point of comparison.

[JaronK]

Funny, I've used a bunch of these. Tenser's Disk is great for hauling gear around at lower levels, and you can put the clanky noisy tank on it and then sneak along quieter (assuming the DM doesn't force Move Silently checks for the tank when he's just sitting). Persistant Detect Secret Doors served me very well on an optimized Cleric in WLD, at least at level 1 (thanks, flaws!). And Summon Monster 1 is great for trap disarming (heh).

Tenser's Transformation, however, is only good if you want to mess about while bored.

JaronK

[molten_dragon]

Bigby's Clenched Fist: Not only is it a level higher than grasping hand, but it loses the ability to grapple, the one thing that made grasping hand a great spell.

Sleep is an interesting case. It's awesome at low levels, but doesn't scale at all, so it quickly becomes utterly useless.

Burning Hands: Worse damage than magic missile, and you have to be really close to use it.

Cause Fear: Worse than sleep, it only affects one creature, the affect isn't as good, and it still doesn't scale at all.

Erase: This spell is pointless

Daze Monster: Same reason as Cause fear.

[Ernir]

I remember someone posting a few months ago about a spell that was like Disguise Self, but you could only change into an elf, or something like that.

The ironic thing is that I kind of need it right now. Does anyone know what I am talking about? :smallbiggrin:

[Eloel]

I remember someone posting a few months ago about a spell that was like Disguise Self, but you could only change into an elf, or something like that.

The ironic thing is that I kind of need it right now. Does anyone know what I am talking about? :smallbiggrin:

Enlarge Ears?

[Jack_Simth]

Well, to go along with Tenser's Transformation, I guess Mental Pinnacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm) is pretty bad.
Actually, that's a really nice one to cast on a familiar. Ego Whip is will half, not will negates... and it's augmentable ability damage. You need at least five levels that grant familiar access to make good use of it (to get your familiar up to 8 Int, so that the enhancement puts the familiar to Int-12), but it can be remarkably useful against almost anything that's subject to mind-affecting stuff. Three rounds of half-damage on 3d4 Charisma damage/round is nothing to sneeze at when you're 11th (4d4 for 3 rounds at 15th, 5d4 for 3 rounds at 19th)

[Godskook]

1. You don't even need a piece of them to bring someone back with True Res.

True Res is a 9th level spell. Let's keep the comparisons to 8th level or below, eh? I see no reason why an 8th level spell needs to be comparable to a 9th


2. Actually is says if the original lost levels since the sample was taken and died at a lower level than the clone, the clone is one level lower than the original when it died. So it's always your level -1 when you died.

You're right, my bad. Messed up when I read it earlier.


3. 2-8 months time for it to mature though, not very interesting to spend 8 months before adventuring.

What, do all PCs suffer from Dan-syndrome of AGC fame?

Besides, the rules do not state a requirement that the spellcaster who cast Clone needs to be present during those 2-8 months. Logically, *someone* does, but not necessarily a PC. Could be a cohort, thrall, bound solar, or mindraped underling, basically someone you could trust. This would probably be the same person you designate to cast gentle repose on the clone while you're gone anyway.


4. My party would just take it for themselves......they've done it before.

Right, so for you, the ability to keep your gear isn't an issue for evaluating resurrection spells. So why'd you bring it up?


Also couldn't you use a Raise Dead scroll + contingency to activate on your death?

There are situations where this is not viable. Specifically, "death within AMF" comes to mind as one example. Dispel is another.

[Divayth Fyr]

I remember someone posting a few months ago about a spell that was like Disguise Self, but you could only change into an elf, or something like that.

The ironic thing is that I kind of need it right now. Does anyone know what I am talking about? :smallbiggrin:

Probably this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040818a)

[Ernir]

Probably this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040818a)
That's it. Thanks.

[Myth]

Yeah, but that has an xp cost. Also, it seems somewhat unfair to always use the most optimal spells possible in what is osensibly a worst spell thread. For a true comparison you should use similarly low-op spells that remain better as a point of comparison.

Wiping out an army (instead of a moderate amount of troops as per MS) warrants spending a few thousand XP. Or you could it via Summon Elemental Monolith - no XP cost and they have great AOE attacks. There are a plethora of better lvl 9 spells and I don't see why you are continuing to argue for Meteor Swarm. It's a blasting spell. Blasting is sub optimal especially at level 20 where enemies worth their salt have tons of hp and fire immunity. Saying it's good for killing 30 to 50 level 1 Warriors is not an argument for a 9th level spell, which is supposed to be on par with Gate, Timestop, Shapechange, Wish, Disjunction, Prismatic Sphere, Foresight, Astral Projection, Maw of Chaos, Summon Elemental Monolith etc. etc. What do you want us to compare it to? Metamagicked Delayed Blast Fireballs can do a better job at blasting for that spell slot. And they can work well with Timestop.

[Mando Knight]

What happens if you cast animate object on a rock statue and then cast stone to flesh?

It is now an animated statue of flesh. If the statue was originally a then-living person, animate object is then suppressed because it can't animate creatures.

[Telonius]

Vampiric Touch is a contender. You deal d6 per two levels damage, and heal what you inflict. Problem is, that total is unlikely to be greater than the Power Attack to the face that you're going to get while delivering the touch spell.

[Tvtyrant]

Vampiric Touch is a contender. You deal d6 per two levels damage, and heal what you inflict. Problem is, that total is unlikely to be greater than the Power Attack to the face that you're going to get while delivering the touch spell.

I suppose this does say Wizard spells; for Duskblades it is amazing.

[Marnath]

Wiping out an army (instead of a moderate amount of troops as per MS) warrants spending a few thousand XP. Or you could it via Summon Elemental Monolith - no XP cost and they have great AOE attacks. There are a plethora of better lvl 9 spells and I don't see why you are continuing to argue for Meteor Swarm. It's a blasting spell. Blasting is sub optimal especially at level 20 where enemies worth their salt have tons of hp and fire immunity. Saying it's good for killing 30 to 50 level 1 Warriors is not an argument for a 9th level spell, which is supposed to be on par with Gate, Timestop, Shapechange, Wish, Disjunction, Prismatic Sphere, Foresight, Astral Projection, Maw of Chaos, Summon Elemental Monolith etc. etc. What do you want us to compare it to? Metamagicked Delayed Blast Fireballs can do a better job at blasting for that spell slot. And they can work well with Timestop.

I don't think you understand. This is a thread about BAD spells.

[Flickerdart]

Polar Ray is pretty terrible - for the cost of an 8th level spell slot you could have a Maximized Empowered Fireball (which is a crappy spell itself) deal an average of 95 damage to an area, against the Polar Ray's single-target 87.5 - assuming a caster level of 25, no less! It looks even worse when compared to a Maximized Empowered Scorching Ray, a spell one level lower that deals 114 average damage against one target, and can be split up if you so desire.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Vampiric Touch is a contender. You deal d6 per two levels damage, and heal what you inflict. Problem is, that total is unlikely to be greater than the Power Attack to the face that you're going to get while delivering the touch spell.

Objections, you don't need to be near to make use of this spell, there area tons of ways to deliver touch spells at a range (reach spell, spectral hand, familiars for example).

And on gishes it is incredible useful (My duskblade loved to channel a vampiric touch and activate a bloodstone weapon on the same round.)

[Dr Bwaa]

Level 7: Transmute Treasure to Crappy Treasure (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteMetalToWood.htm)

Objection. This spell is fantastic for battlefield control when combined with Warp Wood (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/warpwood.htm). You can (with a solid caster level check, etc) even render magical-but-useless-to-your-party armor/weapons/etc totally harmless and in fact beneficial to you. Can't take the Paladin Party bearing down on your group to bring you to justice? Turn all that full-plate into a jointless mass of oak and then walk away/coup-de-grace at your leisure. Render armies helpless. Destroy the phylactery. As long as you don't care much about the treasure value (saving the world comes first... right?), this spell can be extremely powerful.

As far as really awful spells go, how about Contagion?

[Flickerdart]

Contagion isn't that terrible - you get to do some stat damage and maybe blind them too. Better on NPCs than PCs, obviously -- some kind of Assassin going around sickening people and then escaping out the window is a decent trick.

[Mordokai]

Persistant Detect Secret Doors served me very well on an optimized Cleric in WLD, at least at level 1 (thanks, flaws!).

I'm curious, what's the trick? You can PM me with the answer, if doing it so in thread would be spoiling or(more likely), derailing.

[Dr Bwaa]

Oh, Contagion is certainly flavorful (and fun for an assassin) but most disease DCs are so low that anyone with PC class levels is practically immune. I'd rather use Bestow Curse by a mile.

[Grelna the Blue]

Hold Portal, Detect Secret Doors, Chill Touch, Erase, Touch of Fatigue

None of these spells are wroth preparing at the beginning of the day. If you really need one, they could be halfway decent on a scroll or in a spell slot that you left empty. Otherwise, you'll never end up using these spells.

The ones that irk me the most are the touch spells that aren't even worth using. The only way you'll even sanely use them is with a familiar, and they're still a waste of your turn and your familiar's turn.


Erase is awful. As for Detect Secret Door, there's no actual downside to having it in your spellbook (assuming of course you have a Blessed Book so don't have to worry about running out of pages). It could conceivably be useful at some point. Chill Touch isn't the worst spell in the world. There is no other unbuffed 1st level spell I can think of that has the potential to drive off a ghost or vampire or wraith, assuming they fail their save, making it a valid Hail Mary play against undead when all else has failed. The others are pretty situational, but I will say that the closest I ever came to killing one particular party was with a pair of Rakshasa Rukhs that used Hold Portal to keep the party trapped within the area of effect of a Stinking Cloud the Rakshasa were immune to.

[Valameer]

Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer. Trade a 4th level slot for 3 1st level slots. Okay... maybe. Trade a 4th level slot for a 3rd level slot. What?

And, of course Mordenkainen has an even bigger version, not to be undone by any of his peers. Mordenkainen's Lucubration. Except... what? You use your 6th level spell slot to regain a spell of 5th or lower that you already cast?

I can't imagine formulating a plan around either of these spells. Might need an extra fly, or maybe a haste? Use up your 4th or 6th level slots, just to be sure! Except you can already do that - and with metamagics attached!

Maybe you could cast the spell the night before the adventure to get an extra spell slot for a few hours. Maybe.

Leomund's Secret Chest. Good in theory, bad in practice. Want to hide something from your foes? We can do that. Step one: Spend 5000 gp on a fancy chest. Step two: Spend 50 gp more on a replica of said chest. Step three: leave all your stuff somewhere in the ethereal plane. Step four: DON'T FORGET ABOUT IT, OR IT"S GONE! Step five: Make sure no one steals the replica, or else you'll never get your stuff back.

Now, how do you reliably hide the replica? A vault? On your person? In well hidden portable hole? ...Why couldn't you just hide the thing you originally wanted hidden there?

Losing the replica seems like it would be more of a liability than losing whatever it was you had to protect in the first place!

[SurlySeraph]

I'm curious, what's the trick? You can PM me with the answer, if doing it so in thread would be spoiling or(more likely), derailing.

Presumably he picked up Extend Spell from the Planning domain, Persistent Spell, and DMM (Persist). Possibly Extra Turning either as a feat or from the Undeath domain.

[Shade Kerrin]

True Res is a 9th level spell. Let's keep the comparisons to 8th level or below, eh? I see no reason why an 8th level spell needs to be comparable to a 9th

Isn't clone also cheaper than any options other than Reincarnate?
1k + a 500 gp focus. Not that it matters that much at high levels, but still...

[JaronK]

I'm curious, what's the trick? You can PM me with the answer, if doing it so in thread would be spoiling or(more likely), derailing.

No trick. I was a first level Cleric with Planning Domain and two flaws, which meant I could actually get DMM: Persist at level 1 (along with Dragonwrought, yehaw). But there's not many level 1 Cleric spells worth persisting, so I went with Detect Secret Doors. Since WLD is a dungeon full of them and I just auto detected all of them, we ended up completely bypassing a heck of a lot of stuff and going straight to the secret areas.

JaronK

[The Shadowmind]

Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer. Trade a 4th level slot for 3 1st level slots. Okay... maybe. Trade a 4th level slot for a 3rd level slot. What?

And, of course Mordenkainen has an even bigger version, not to be undone by any of his peers. Mordenkainen's Lucubration. Except... what? You use your 6th level spell slot to regain a spell of 5th or lower that you already cast?

I can't imagine formulating a plan around either of these spells. Might need an extra fly, or maybe a haste? Use up your 4th or 6th level slots, just to be sure! Except you can already do that - and with metamagics attached!

While, not that great spells to prepare, Mnemonic Enchancer in a wand(10,500gp) is great for utility, as well as a Mage's Lucubration in a staff(24,750gp) makes is hard to run out of spells 5th level and below unless you are trying.

[Draz74]

The Freedom spell is also so limited that a wizard would only learn it if their best friend happened to be stuck in the center of the planet.
This one's actually terrible or awesome depending on interpretation, along the same lines as Iron Heart Surge:

The subject is freed from spells and effects that restrict its movement, including ...
So depending on how loosely the DM interprets "effects that restrict movement," this spell can be awesome -- like Freedom of Movement Deluxe. Especially when you consider that "Instantaneous" duration (:smallconfused:). Arguably, that means it's like a permanent, non-dispellable Freedom of Movement. (Yes, I did have a DM who interpreted this spell in an awesome way. Though I never did ask him about how the duration thing would work ... if it only frees you from effects that area already affecting you, then yes, that's somewhat situational.)


Statue is just so dumb that it can be copied by street performers or a basic adventurer with a Ring of Sustenance and a good disguise kit.
I was unaware that a Ring of Sustenance and a disguise kit could give you DR 8/- for many hours of the day. :smallconfused:

[Flickerdart]

This one's actually terrible or awesome depending on interpretation, along the same lines as Iron Heart Surge:

So depending on how loosely the DM interprets "effects that restrict movement," this spell can be awesome -- like Freedom of Movement Deluxe. Especially when you consider that "Instantaneous" duration (:smallconfused:). Arguably, that means it's like a permanent, non-dispellable Freedom of Movement. (Yes, I did have a DM who interpreted this spell in an awesome way. Though I never did ask him about how the duration thing would work ... if it only frees you from effects that area already affecting you, then yes, that's somewhat situational.)


I was unaware that a Ring of Sustenance and a disguise kit could give you DR 8/- for many hours of the day. :smallconfused:
It says "freed", not "immune to". You cannot be freed from an effect if the effect is not actually on you.

[Starbuck_II]

Hold Portal, Detect Secret Doors, Chill Touch, Erase, Touch of Fatigue

None of these spells are wroth preparing at the beginning of the day. If you really need one, they could be halfway decent on a scroll or in a spell slot that you left empty. Otherwise, you'll never end up using these spells.

The ones that irk me the most are the touch spells that aren't even worth using. The only way you'll even sanely use them is with a familiar, and they're still a waste of your turn and your familiar's turn.


Touch of fatigue is a cantrip: And not a bad one actually.

Chill Touch is multipurpose: Scares undead, Str damage and negative damage living, and multiple attacks before used up.

Erase is ... well utility.


Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer. Trade a 4th level slot for 3 1st level slots. Okay... maybe. Trade a 4th level slot for a 3rd level slot. What?

You do realize it stacks. Meaning with one day between you have hundreds of 3rd level spells.

[Ilmryn]

Wiping out an army (instead of a moderate amount of troops as per MS) warrants spending a few thousand XP. Or you could it via Summon Elemental Monolith - no XP cost and they have great AOE attacks. There are a plethora of better lvl 9 spells and I don't see why you are continuing to argue for Meteor Swarm. It's a blasting spell. Blasting is sub optimal especially at level 20 where enemies worth their salt have tons of hp and fire immunity. Saying it's good for killing 30 to 50 level 1 Warriors is not an argument for a 9th level spell, which is supposed to be on par with Gate, Timestop, Shapechange, Wish, Disjunction, Prismatic Sphere, Foresight, Astral Projection, Maw of Chaos, Summon Elemental Monolith etc. etc. What do you want us to compare it to? Metamagicked Delayed Blast Fireballs can do a better job at blasting for that spell slot. And they can work well with Timestop.

I agree. If you want to wipe out an army, MS is horribly inoptimal, fire storm is much better at level 6, since it covers a lot of area. Unless you do something like Apocalypse From the Sky, fire storm is probably the best blasting spell to use against an army.

Although I'd argue that the worst spell ever is Vile Death. You use a 9th level spell to moderately boost an undead creature...and you don't control it anymore...

[Draz74]

It says "freed", not "immune to". You cannot be freed from an effect if the effect is not actually on you.

Eh, I could argue that, but I'd have a hard time taking my own argument seriously. :smallamused:

It's still essentially an Iron Heart Surge that you can cast on someone else.

[JaronK]

Ooh! I forgot about Vile Death. It also doesn't really boost the undead, because most of what you gain from the template it adds is stuff undead had already. And it gives a LA, so you can't even use it on undead party members.

JaronK