D&D 3.5 Assassins and spell failure

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

in the 3.5 DMG, it is stated that

"An assassin casts spells just as a bard does. "

Does this include ignoring the arcane spell failure for light armor? Did WOTC ever clarify this? How do you as a DM run it?

Thanks in advance everyone!

[Myth]

Yes, especially since they only get Light Armour prof.

[olentu]

Clearly this means that assassin spells have a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music).


Thus assassins must sing, recite, or music when casting spells.

[Myth]

Clearly this means that assassin spells have a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music).


Thus assassins must sing, recite, or music when casting spells.

So apart fro you being snide do you have anything relevant to add? Do you have any evidence that Asassins have ASF like that of a Wizard/Sorcerer?

[Starbuck_II]

Clearly this means that assassin spells have a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music).


Thus assassins must sing, recite, or music when casting spells.

Correct, Assassins say, "Dagger, sweet dagger" from Shakespeare.

[olentu]

So apart fro you being snide do you have anything relevant to add? Do you have any evidence that Asassins have ASF like that of a Wizard/Sorcerer?

Oh come now it is important to explore all the results of a ruling including the fact that part of how bards cast spells is with verbal components.

[Psyren]

Clearly this means that assassin spells have a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music).


Thus assassins must sing, recite, or music when casting spells.

The problem with that reasoning is this line from the PHB: "Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music)." Although assassins may cast spells like bards do, they cast assassin spells, not bard spells. (i.e. they have their own list.)

Nice try, though :smalltongue:

[Feliks878]

Correct, Assassins say, "Dagger, sweet dagger" from Shakespeare.


Yessssssssssssssssssssss. An assassin with Perform(Oratory), gives monologues. Does it quietly to themselves while casting spells. This concept makes me happy.

On the topic, it's poorly written. The RAI interpretation, as far as my group and myself has always been concerned, is that Assassins can cast in light armor, and qualify for things like Battle Caster(CArc).

[Azimov]

which means assasins explicitly cannot use silent spell?

:Edit - Although Psyren is probably right about the precise wording. I'm Away From Books right now.

[olentu]

The problem with that reasoning is this line from the PHB: "Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music)." Although assassins may cast spells like bards do, they cast assassin spells, not bard spells. (i.e. they have their own list.)

Nice try, though :smalltongue:

Similarly

"Because the somatic components required for bard spells are
relatively simple, a bard can cast bard spells while wearing light
armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance."

So it seems that the passage is meaningless.

[Psyren]

Similarly

"Because the somatic components required for bard spells are
relatively simple, a bard can cast bard spells while wearing light
armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance."

So it seems that the passage is meaningless.

My hat is off to you sir, excellent parry.

However, given the choice between being forced to take off my armor, or singing before assassination attempts, I'll go with being unarmored. :smallwink:

(And this would be why I don't play assassins)

[Starbuck_II]

My hat is off to you sir, excellent parry.

However, given the choice between being forced to take off my armor, or singing before assassination attempts, I'll go with being unarmored. :smallwink:

(And this would be why I don't play assassins)

I think you get to choose since unclear. So you can either recite shakespeare (or sing) or go unarmored.

[olentu]

My hat is off to you sir, excellent parry.

However, given the choice between being forced to take off my armor, or singing before assassination attempts, I'll go with being unarmored. :smallwink:

(And this would be why I don't play assassins)

Yeah the unarmored thing is probably a better choice unless the game is D&D the musical or something like that.

[Psyren]

I think you get to choose since unclear. So you can either recite shakespeare (or sing) or go unarmored.

Yes, that's what I said :smalltongue:

What's odd is that there are bard spells without verbal components, e.g. Gaseous Form. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousform.htm) or Hide From Dragons. Do you just add a verbal component in?

[faceroll]

Yes, that's what I said :smalltongue:

What's odd is that there are bard spells without verbal components, e.g. Gaseous Form. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousform.htm) or Hide From Dragons. Do you just add a verbal component in?

Yes.

aksdgnksgdsjkgabskjgd

[Psyren]

Yes.

aksdgnksgdsjkgabskjgd

So you'd have to sing in the dragon's lair to stay hidden? How silly. Reminds me of "Move, move, move silenty across the battlefield."

[Ernir]

Pasting from the SRD for reference:
A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a bard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When Table: The Bard indicates that the bard gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.

The bard’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells of your choice. At most new bard levels, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: The Bard. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bard knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: The Bard are fixed.)

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

As noted above, a bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.

Beginning at 1st level, an assassin gains the ability to cast a number of arcane spells. To cast a spell, an assassin must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell’s level, so an assassin with an Intelligence of 10 or lower cannot cast these spells. Assassin bonus spells are based on Intelligence, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + the assassin’s Intelligence bonus. When the assassin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Intelligence score for that spell level.

The assassin’s spell list appears below. An assassin casts spells just as a bard does.

Upon reaching 6th level, at every even-numbered level after that (8th and 10th), an assassin can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level assassin spell the assassin can cast. An assassin may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for that level.

By my reading, the "An assassin casts spells just as a bard does." line is... just completely at odds with the rest of the Assassin entry. It comes right in the middle of a description that appears to be unique to the Assassin, but there is no reservation made to keep those mechanics. Not sure if this is usable by RAW. :smallconfused:

My guess is that the RAI is that the Assassin casts spells like a Bard with respect to arcane spell failure, but keeps its own defined spell list, minimum ability score to cast a spell, spell save DCs, and spell swapping mechanic.

What I'd like to know is whether this means Assassins cast spells spontaneously. And whether an Assassin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level in order to learn a spell.



unless the game is D&D the musical or something like that.
Wow.

I need to get some of my singing friends into D&D. Because D&D where all in-character dialogue is delivered through singing sounds awesome.

[Akal Saris]

I think you get to choose since unclear. So you can either recite shakespeare (or sing) or go unarmored.

Hell, I'd want to recite shakespeare even if I went unarmored!

In all seriousness though, I always rule that assassins get to keep their light armor and cast spells. That seems the clear RAI to me.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Yeah the unarmored thing is probably a better choice unless the game is D&D the musical or something like that.

Ooooh! Pick Me, Pick Me! I want in on the musical campaign!

[faceroll]

So you'd have to sing in the dragon's lair to stay hidden? How silly. Reminds me of "Move, move, move silenty across the battlefield."

Bards are an inherently silly class.

[olentu]

Blah this talk has made me actually want to run such a game, but I unfortunately have no time. Ah well perhaps I will remember the concept when I actually have the time.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I felt as though the assassins cast spells as bards bit, was to make it clear that yes, they do cast spontaneously... otherwise, they would have said Assassins cast as wizards (like they did in 3.0).
I also assumed that they said the Bard bit, because if they just wanted to make it clear that they cast spontaneously, they would have just said "like a sorcerer", and that they also wanted to make it clear that they could cast without ASF. that's just a theory though, of course, and no RAW, errata, or WOTC official has every said anything to clear it up...

[Feliks878]

Bards are an inherently silly awesome class.

I have made a small change to your statement. I believe it is more accurate now.