[3.5] Warlock Eldritch Essences Question

[Crow]

When calculating the save DC of an Eldritch Essence like Sickening blast, do I use the save DC for the Eldritch Blast (10+1/2 warlock level+CHA mod), or do I calculate it using Sickening Blast's level equivelant (10+2 I think+CHA mod)?

Sorry for this which must seem like a very stupid question.

[Baveboi]

It's a well common enough question, actually. Warlocks are very shied at by many players and WoTC made fewer material for him than any other class.

I believe it's made with the Eldritch Blast save, since the Essence level equivalent is speculation at best.
And in case it's not, one of my PCs has been using hellrime wrong for the past six months.

[CrazedPachyderm]

When calculating the save DC of an Eldritch Essence like Sickening blast, do I use the save DC for the Eldritch Blast (10+1/2 warlock level+CHA mod), or do I calculate it using Sickening Blast's level equivelant (10+2 I think+CHA mod)?

Sorry for this which must seem like a very stupid question.

Complete Arcana (p. 8) says to use the greater of the two, and the Errata makes the Eldritch Blast the equivalent of a first level spell. (Since 1st level is the lowest it can go, it's safe to just always calculate it using the Eldritch Essence's spell level.)

If you also apply a Blast Shape, then you use the greater of the levels of the Shape and the Essence.

[Sir Swindle89]

Complete Arcana (p. 8) says to use the greater of the two, and the Errata makes the Eldritch Blast the equivalent of a first level spell. (Since 1st level is the lowest it can go, it's safe to just always calculate it using the Eldritch Essence's spell level.)

If you also apply a Blast Shape, then you use the greater of the levels of the Shape and the Essence.

Thats silly IMO HR it to half level, it's simpler to keep track of and a tiny buff to warlock.

[Eloel]

Complete Arcana (p. 8) says to use the greater of the two, and the Errata makes the Eldritch Blast the equivalent of a first level spell. (Since 1st level is the lowest it can go, it's safe to just always calculate it using the Eldritch Essence's spell level.)

If you also apply a Blast Shape, then you use the greater of the levels of the Shape and the Essence.

On defense of the Errata, you can now use meta-SLA feats on Eldritch Blast. Having Quicken as an option tends to be a good idea.

[Sir Swindle89]

On defense of the Errata, you can now use meta-SLA feats on Eldritch Blast. Having Quicken as an option tends to be a good idea.

You couldn't always do that? was it somthing other than a SLA before?

[Eloel]

You couldn't always do that? was it somthing other than a SLA before?

Quicken SLA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#quickenSpellLikeAbility) requires a caster level of (2x spell-equivalent-level + 8) to quicken a SLA.
It obviously causes problems when you always need to be 8 levels higher than you currently are to take the feat.

[true_shinken]

I believe it's made with the Eldritch Blast save, since the Essence level equivalent is speculation at best.
And in case it's not, one of my PCs has been using hellrime wrong for the past six months.
Erm, I'm sorry? All essences have an equivalent level stated.
And yes, you use the essence's level for DC.

[Vladislav]

The rules. They may be arbitrary, you may not like them, but they are quoted here for your convenience.

A warlock can apply only one eldritch essence invocation to a single eldritch blast, choosing from any of the eldritch essence invocations that he knows. When a warlock applies an eldritch essence invocation to his eldritch blast, the spell level equivalent of the modified blast is equal to the spell level of the eldritch blast or of the eldritch essence invocation, whichever is higher.

[true_shinken]

The rules. They may be arbitrary, you may not like them, but they are quoted here for your convenience.
And since eldritch blast is equivalent to 1st level, you'll always use the essence's level.

[Vladislav]

And since eldritch blast is equivalent to 1st level, you'll always use the essence's level.

Was there an errata? All I could find is this:


Eldritch Blast

As a standard action, you can launch a ray with a 60 ft range as a ranged tough attack, dealing damage as listed in the chart. It is as a spell-like ability of a spell level equal to half your warlock level (rounded down).

[true_shinken]

Was there an errata? All I could find is this:

Yes, there was an errata. It was even mentioned in this very thread before.

[Duke of URL]

And since eldritch blast is equivalent to 1st level, you'll always use the essence's level.

Or the shape, if you're using a shape ESL higher than the essence ESL.

[Prime32]

SLAs always have a save DC of (10 + half level + ability mod) regardless of level. The spell level is just for interactions with things like sphere of invulnerability.

[true_shinken]

SLAs always have a save DC of (10 + half level + ability mod) regardless of level. The spell level is just for interactions with things like sphere of invulnerability.

I'm afraid you are incorrect, sir. Just check any monster statblock with SLAs.

[Duke of URL]

SLAs always have a save DC of (10 + half level + ability mod) regardless of level. The spell level is just for interactions with things like sphere of invulnerability.

Eldritch blast was specifically errata'd to have a save DC of 10 + highest ESL attached to the blast (minimum ESL 1).

@^ Also correct. SLAs that mimic spells have save DCs of 10 + equivalent spell level + relevant ability modifier. In some cases, this is boosted higher due to racial bonuses. SLAs and (Su) abilities that don't mimic spells are 10 (or 11) + 1/2 HD + relevant ability modifier.

[Psyren]

Did anyone mention that Eldritch Blast was errataed to be 1st-level in this thread yet? I didn't see it anywhere. Don't hurt me, I couldn't resist!

[Thurbane]

It's a well common enough question, actually. Warlocks are very shied at by many players and WoTC made fewer material for him than any other class.
Really? They got some love in Complete Mage, and the Magic Item Compendium at the very least.

Now Binder, on the other hand, got almost nothing, besides a tiny handful of extra vestiges.

[Duke of URL]

There's also the Dragonfire Adept, which is the Warlock's red-headed stepbrother.

[T.G. Oskar]

It's a well common enough question, actually. Warlocks are very shied at by many players and WoTC made fewer material for him than any other class.

Actually...WotC made lots of material for the PHB classes, then for Psionics, then for most of the Completes. Warlock actually has stuff in Complete Mage, Drow of the Underdark, Dragon Magic and I believe one or two more places.

Then comes Incarnum, Pact Magic (Binders), Shadowcasters (only a few mentions in the web that adds 9 new mysteries).

The actual groups that got no support at all are: CW Samurai (they decided to forget about it really, really quick; there are ways to place them on Eberron and FR but they're mostly second-hand mentions), Truenaming (again, something they decided to forget), and ToB (being one of the last classes on the line). Oh, and Dragonfire Adept but that's because, IIRC, the last class developed was the DFA. There's also the Dread Necromancer, but at least that has Advanced Learning which means they get most of the support from other classes' spell lists. Heck, even Marshal whom was never updated (unless you consider White Raven an update) got one or two mentions, and that's even less than what the Warlock gets.

So yeah...Warlock is actually quite appreciated. I mean, whaddya think of Eldritch Glaive? Or Hellfire Warlock (which reminds me: Fiendish Codex II provides some support for the Warlock as well). So I wouldn't say the Warlock wasn't supported; it was mostly as supported as Incarnum, but much less than Psionics.

As for Eldritch Blast...I dunno, I'd probably ignore the Errata. While it provides a chance to Quicken, Maximize and Empower the eldritch blasts, it makes essence invocations hilariously weaker than before (at least before you had 10 + 1/2 warlock level -OR- essence invocation effective spell level + Charisma modifier). I mean, why would you have something like Frightening or Sickening Blast if it becomes rather pointless by 5th level or so? And the highest "spell level" invocations are ESL 8th, so they don't get much of a boost.

Perhaps it was to prevent Ability Focus (Eldritch Blast) to count for all the other essences (that way there's a good exploitable), but that's more of an exploit than a problem. So I'd personally ignore errata on that one.

[true_shinken]

Perhaps it was to prevent Ability Focus (Eldritch Blast) to count for all the other essences (that way there's a good exploitable), but that's more of an exploit than a problem. So I'd personally ignore errata on that one.
That still works, actually.
Eldritch blast defaulting as a level 1 was:
a) incentive to swap your essences for higher level ones,
b) incentive to use metaSLA feats on eldritch blast
All the glaivelocks out there love the change. They are never looking back. :smallbiggrin:

[FelixG]

All the glaivelocks out there love the change. They are never looking back. :smallbiggrin:

I have been considering rolling up a Glaivelock for some time, why are metaSLAs good for the glaivelock?

[T.G. Oskar]

That still works, actually.
Eldritch blast defaulting as a level 1 was:
a) incentive to swap your essences for higher level ones,
b) incentive to use metaSLA feats on eldritch blast
All the glaivelocks out there love the change. They are never looking back. :smallbiggrin:

a) You'll still be changing your essences anyways. Fear and sickness get blocked very early and very easily. Blindness is great, so it may be retained. Brimstone is fire damage, so it's not like it would be taken anyways; Hellrime is slightly better since it's cold damage (which can be easily resisted) but it delivers also a penalty to Dexterity (which means it can be useful if you wish to retain it, but you can still change it). Greater essences are hit or miss: Noxious, Repelling and Bewitching aren't that powerful compared to Beshadowed (nausea is great but it is easily resisted as well; knockback on an arcanist is kind of a joke and confusion for 1 round isn't that good, especially since it's also easily blocked); Hindering Blast on the other hand is superb (slow for 1 round, but if you spam it then it's just too good). So that leaves Dark Essence invocations, which have the equivalent of Enervation with a Fort save (easily resisted) and stun.

Aside from Beshadowing Blast; remind me why I seek to change Essences again? Considering that you can't change Dark essences to other Dark essences or essences of a lower level into ones of higher level (you can only change invocations of the same or lower level, mind you), it's more of a nerf rather than a buff. Unless errata allows you to exchange essences of lower levels into essences of higher level?

b) Technically, you already can; it's still basically the same. Still can't use Quickened Eldritch Glaive until you have CL 12th (meaning you still can't use it until level 12th or so), and you can't add any essence invocation (recall that Eldritch Glaive is a 2nd level Blast Shape invocation) of a higher level or else you'll risk having to wait more levels. You can't use Vitriolic Eldritch Glaive until level 20th (because Vitriolic Blast in this case would be the effect with the highest spell level). So a glaivelock would be capable of using this ability 3/day at 10th level at most (finding ways to increase your warlock CL, that is); a Belt of Battle does roughly the same earlier on (and an Eldritch Theurge does it thanks to Lesser Celerity even earlier); hence, while I can concede your point, I don't see the pure benefit of it. The only other meta-SLAs are Empower Spell-Like Ability, and...both Maximize and Heighten SLA on Complete Arcane. That's four feats (and one replacing what a Warlock could already do) replacing the power of other essences, exchanging SoD potential with damage potential. Doesn't seem like a fair trade to me, in any case (except on glaivelocks, true, but I already mentioned they could just use another method for Quicken SLA and they don't need Heighten, so that's half of the prospective meta-SLA feats that are shot down.

Quite frankly, I could see a bit more potential on Enlightened Soul + Purify Spell-Like Ability (bunch of 1d8 instead of 1d6), or heck, a rare Chaotic Good Warlock with Purify Spell-Like Ability. In my book, it's not an entirely fair trade, considering you could provide some serious debuffing at later levels with an Eldritch Blast scaling with your warlock level. Besides, it specifically claims warlock's class level, so if you still wish to use Eldritch Blast with SLAs, you can do so (only slightly later) by going out of the Warlock class. So the benefit is lessened even more (and only a full Warlock 18 would always have 9th level Eldritch Blasts anyways). So it's kind of a moot point anyways; again, you exchange the potential for greater damage with the potential of much stronger SoD essence effects.


I have been considering rolling up a Glaivelock for some time, why are metaSLAs good for the glaivelock?

While I don't agree with shinken over their use, meta-SLAs are good for Glaivelocks because they allow greater damage potential. Example: Quicken SLA with Eldritch Glaive would either: a), allow for duplicate Eldritch Glaive attacks (a Quickened Eldritch Glaive followed by a regular Eldritch Glaive attack); b) a combined Eldritch Blast attack (Eldritch Glaive combined with quickened Eldritch Blast); c) a pounce move (either double move and quickened EG, or move, quickened EG and then regular Eldritch Blast). Maximize SLA and Empower SLA directly increase the damage of Eldritch Blast and by definition Eldritch Glaive (Maximize = 6 times your Eldritch Blast damage dice, and with EG that means 6 times your Eldritch Blast damage dice times your iterative attacks, which can mean something between 18 points at 6th level to 162 points of damage with EG at 20th level; add the extra damage dice from Hellfire Warlock and you can deal about 200 HP of damage with one blow); Empower SLA means your Eldritch Blast damage increases by 50% (average of 3.5 per damage dice increases to around 5.25 per damage dice, or 21 points of damage per every 4 damage dice; use Eldritch Glaive and you can have somewhere between 9 to 27 dice of damage, which means a pretty high amount of damage). And so on. Again, the application of SLAs means you can deal greater damage, which is what the glaivelock uses; however, for those who like the SoD essences, it's kind of a boot to the nads (unless you were already planning to get out of the Warlock class anyways, in which case the only one that benefits is a 20th level glaivelock in comparison to a 20th level Warlock, and has about the same effect as a 4th level Warlock/16 levels in anything else).

[true_shinken]

Unless errata allows you to exchange essences of lower levels into essences of higher level?
It doesn't, but a warlock class feature allows you to swap them for same-level invocations.


So a glaivelock would be capable of using this ability 3/day at 10th level at most (finding ways to increase your warlock CL, that is); a Belt of Battle does roughly the same earlier on (and an Eldritch Theurge does it thanks to Lesser Celerity even earlier)
The Belt of Battle only works once a day and it's a highly controversial item. Celerity is a very very broken spell... with drawbacks (and doesn't it give you just a standard action, anyway?). I just find Quicken SLA to be a more simple solution. As a sidenote, I believe Heighten SLA would mostly fix the issue with essende DCs, wouldn't it?


Quite frankly, I could see a bit more potential on Enlightened Soul + Purify Spell-Like Ability (bunch of 1d8 instead of 1d6), or heck, a rare Chaotic Good Warlock with Purify Spell-Like Ability. In my book, it's not an entirely fair trade, considering you could provide some serious debuffing at later levels with an Eldritch Blast scaling with your warlock level. Besides, it specifically claims warlock's class level, so if you still wish to use Eldritch Blast with SLAs, you can do so (only slightly later) by going out of the Warlock class. So the benefit is lessened even more (and only a full Warlock 18 would always have 9th level Eldritch Blasts anyways). So it's kind of a moot point anyways; again, you exchange the potential for greater damage with the potential of much stronger SoD essence effects.
I'm sorry, I didn't really understand your point here.