(3.5e) Challenging but not Frustrating

[ArcanistSupreme]

The level 9 party that I am DMing for will be encountering a lvl 12 sorcerer. I want this encounter to last more than a few rounds, so I put together the following build:

Necropolitan Aasimar Sorcerer 12 (with Metamagic Sorcerer ACF from PHB II)

Feats:
Flaw 1: Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy)
Flaw 2: Spell Focus (Necromancy)
1: Empower Spell
3: Sudden Maximize
6: Split Ray
9: Arcane Thesis (Enervation)
12: Residual Magic

Spell List:
Cantrips
Prestidigitation
Detect Magic
Message
Ghost Sound
Read Magic
Light
Mending
Resistance
Touch of Fatigue
1st
Color Spray
Protection from Good
Protection from Evil
Ray of Enfeeblement
True Strike
2nd
Glitterdust
Ray of Stupidity
Blindness/Deafness
Invisibility
Wings of Cover
3rd
Dispel Magic
Fly
Slow
Stinking Cloud
4th
Enervation
Confusion
Greater Mirror Image
5th
Cloudkill
Dominate Person
6th
Acid Fog

Obviously, this guy would be able to stall and hold off the party for a long time. The problem is, I can see the encounter just getting frustrating. Does anyone have any suggestions for helping to avoid this?

[Tvtyrant]

The level 9 party that I am DMing for will be encountering a lvl 12 sorcerer. I want this encounter to last more than a few rounds, so I put together the following build:

Necropolitan Aasimar Sorcerer 12 (with Metamagic Sorcerer ACF from PHB II)

Feats:
Flaw 1: Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy)
Flaw 2: Spell Focus (Necromancy)
1: Empower Spell
3: Sudden Maximize
6: Split Ray
9: Arcane Thesis (Enervation)
12: Residual Metamagic

Spell List:
Cantrips
Prestidigitation
Detect Magic
Message
Ghost Sound
Read Magic
Light
Mending
Resistance
Touch of Fatigue
1st
Color Spray
Protection from Good
Protection from Evil
Ray of Enfeeblement
True Strike
2nd
Glitterdust
Ray of Stupidity
Blindness/Deafness
Invisibility
Wings of Cover
3rd
Dispel Magic
Fly
Slow
Stinking Cloud
4th
Enervation
Confusion
Greater Mirror Image
5th
Cloudkill
Dominate Person
6th
Acid Fog

Obviously, this guy would be able to stall and hold off the party for a long time. The problem is, I can see the encounter just getting frustrating. Does anyone have any suggestions for helping to avoid this?

Have him use Greater Mirror Image and then Dominate against the meleeist of your group. Then he casts cloud spells and rays from behind the fighter-type. Essentially he dominates the fighter type and orders him to protect him, and then uses AoE spells on the fortitude weak casters and rays on the will weak melee types. Play him trope savvy; he knows that your guys can only take so much punishment so he plays against their weaknesses. Then he runs out of upper level spells by overusing his metamagic and he is forced to use weaker spells, which get him killed. Basically go nova-metamagic and run out of slots in about three rounds.

[Grelna the Blue]

Cloudkill is a great spell, but if he's already got Acid Fog, it seems as if he's got the fog thing covered.

Any chance of switching out Cloudkill for Magic Jar and giving him an already possessed minion to carry the soul item into line of effect of the group? That way the party can start feeling the hate before they even encounter him in person, as he has already used the Magic Jar to possess one or more of them and either directly turned them against the group or set off traps that will affect the group.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Have him use Greater Mirror Image and then Dominate against the meleeist of your group. Then he casts cloud spells and rays from behind the fighter-type. Essentially he dominates the fighter type and orders him to protect him, and then uses AoE spells on the fortitude weak casters and rays on the will weak melee types. Play him trope savvy; he knows that your guys can only take so much punishment so he plays against their weaknesses. Then he runs out of upper level spells by overusing his metamagic and he is forced to use weaker spells, which get him killed. Basically go nova-metamagic and run out of slots in about three rounds.

Um, a level twelve sorcerer has a ton of spell slots. And he has about 30 Cha. So I don't think that running out of spells is going to happen. I can definitely make this a challenging and difficult encounter, but I don't want players to get frustrated because their characters are totally shut down (slowed, blinded, about 6 negative levels, stuck in an acid cloud, and confused seems like a bit much).

Basically what I'm looking for are ways to maximize difficulty while still keeping things fun.

[Tvtyrant]

Um, a level twelve sorcerer has a ton of spell slots. And he has about 30 Cha. So I don't think that running out of spells is going to happen. I can definitely make this a challenging and difficult encounter, but I don't want players to get frustrated because their characters are totally shut down (slowed, blinded, about 6 negative levels, stuck in an acid cloud, and confused seems like a bit much).

Basically what I'm looking for are ways to maximize difficulty while still keeping things fun.

Woops, I read Wizard... Sorry about that. I was all "why is one level 6 slot spell so horrifying?"

In that case I suggest swapping out some of the spells for blasting spells; a level 12 sorc with these spells could very well TPK with my strategy :P

[ArcanistSupreme]

Cloudkill is a great spell, but if he's already got Acid Fog, it seems as if he's got the fog thing covered.

Any chance of switching out Cloudkill for Magic Jar and giving him an already possessed minion to carry the soul item into line of effect of the group? That way the party can start feeling the hate before they even encounter him in person, as he has already used the Magic Jar to possess one or more of them and either directly turned them against the group or set off traps that will affect the group.

Cloudkill doesn't hamper mobility in any way, it moves, it's a great debuff that will allow me to land blindness/deafness, it's one of the few lethal tactics that this guy has, and it interacts nicely with acid fog. And he already has dominate person.

There is also the issue of him not having any minions present due to plot circumstances. I do like the ideas of traps, though. It will give the players something to overcome and accomplish, as well as adding a bit more fear of death. Thoughts here?

[ArcanistSupreme]

Woops, I read Wizard... Sorry about that. I was all "why is one level 6 slot spell so horrifying?"

In that case I suggest swapping out some of the spells for blasting spells; a level 12 sorc with these spells could very well TPK with my strategy :P

Yeah, I could easily wipe out the party with proper spell management. You'll also notice that I didn't grab polymorph, chain spell, disintegrate, wings of flurry, or go too crazy with optimizing in general. What I'm going for here is a memorable/epic fight, not a way to arbitrarily curbstomp the PCs. I want them to be afraid, I want them to be challenged, but I don't want the encounter to be over in two rounds because a)that's all it took for this guy to wipe them out or b)there's a glaring weakness in the build that I haven't noticed so that's how long it took the party to wipe him out. I also don't want anyone leaving frustrated because their characters are essentially trivialized.

[Tvtyrant]

Alright, well to make this narrower and easier to work with could you describe your party?

[ArcanistSupreme]

A factotum 8/swordsage 1, optimized blaster sorcerer, crusader 8/warblade 1, and a totemist. Flight will be readily available to the totemist and probably the sorcerer. The other two may have limited flight capabilities.

[Thrawn183]

Mind trickery always makes for memorable fights. Too much crowd control and things get frustrating. Too much damage and somebody's gonna die (frustrating). I like enough defense to keep you alive long enough dominate one of the PC's. Suddenly the fight turns on its head.

Edit: Illusions can be useful in keeping you alive just long enough.

[Flickerdart]

Mind trickery always makes for memorable fights. Too much crowd control and things get frustrating. Too much damage and somebody's gonna die (frustrating). I like enough defense to keep you alive long enough dominate one of the PC's. Suddenly the fight turns on its head.

Edit: Illusions can be useful in keeping you alive just long enough.
Not very much fun for the guy who doesn't get to play his character, though.

[Grelna the Blue]

One trap that might work here (esp fun if the dominated character pulls the lever or whatever) would be something that dumps some oozes or minor constructs immune to acid into the battle area. Constructs would have the advantage of being programmed not to attack the sorcerer, but could be expensive.

[tahu88810]

One trap that might work here (esp fun if the dominated character pulls the lever or whatever) would be something that dumps some oozes or minor constructs immune to acid into the battle area. Constructs would have the advantage of being programmed not to attack the sorcerer, but could be expensive.

Not very much fun for the guy who doesn't get to play his character, though.

Alternately, have the BBEG cast "Suggestion" on someone and fail, but pretend not to realize it. Then have him say "You probably do not want to pull that lever over there." or something to that effect.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Mind trickery always makes for memorable fights. Too much crowd control and things get frustrating. Too much damage and somebody's gonna die (frustrating). I like enough defense to keep you alive long enough dominate one of the PC's. Suddenly the fight turns on its head.

Edit: Illusions can be useful in keeping you alive just long enough.

So basically rotate strategies? Drop some battlefield control, debuff, dominate, buff up, rinse and repeat?

[ArcanistSupreme]

Not very much fun for the guy who doesn't get to play his character, though.

I was thinking of letting the dominated person play his character. I think that they could have fun whaling on each other.

[Flickerdart]

I was thinking of letting the dominated person play his character. I think that they could have fun whaling on each other.
That has two problems going for it. One, the player might very well behave sub-optimally to protect his party, which is him having to curb himself and no fun. The other is that he acts to the full potential of his character and depending on the level of opti-fu will increase the encounter level considerably, since most enemies you normally face aren't built to do 300 damage on a charge or trip-chain or something.

[Ernir]

IMO, it shouldn't matter too much what the Sorcerer is doing as long as

A) The Sorcerer has enough defenses layered up to last for a few rounds
B) Everyone gets to act every round.

HP damage, Con damage, and negative levels are pretty good offensive measures for a DM, IMO. Dangerous enough to give the players an "uh-oh, I'm under fire!" feeling, but they don't restrict actions.

Defensive measures for a Sorcerer... Wings of Cover might be a bit too much, judging by what you are implying about the group's power level. Ruin Delver's Fortune (SpC) and Greater Mirror Image (PHB2), combined with making sure he has enough prep time to get some rounds/level buffs up should go a long way.

I was thinking of letting the dominated person play his character. I think that they could have fun whaling on each other.
I've had it happen to me, and I had fun. But it wasn't my character that ended up dead. :smallredface:

Don't do it if your players are the kind that gets annoyed when characters die. Because Dominations do tend to make that happen.

[ArcanistSupreme]

That has two problems going for it. One, the player might very well behave sub-optimally to protect his party, which is him having to curb himself and no fun. The other is that he acts to the full potential of his character and depending on the level of opti-fu will increase the encounter level considerably, since most enemies you normally face aren't built to do 300 damage on a charge or trip-chain or something.

I don't think them acting suboptimally will be a problem, given the group. The sorcerer will be the only one optimized for damage, but I hope to give him problems via stinking cloud and line of sight issues. The other ones aren't optimized for damage, so pitting one of them against the others should be okay.

As for casualties, this will likely be the final fight of the campaign (if it isn't, there will be another one that will kill them) and I'm more than okay with some/all of them dying. I do want victory to be possible (and storywise it would accomplish something), but it's a horror campaign, so death/failure was always a possibility.

[ArcanistSupreme]

IMO, it shouldn't matter too much what the Sorcerer is doing as long as

A) The Sorcerer has enough defenses layered up to last for a few rounds
B) Everyone gets to act every round.

Should I drop confusion and/or slow in this case?


HP damage, Con damage, and negative levels are pretty good offensive measures for a DM, IMO. Dangerous enough to give the players an "uh-oh, I'm under fire!" feeling, but they don't restrict actions.

Good to know I've got the right idea. :smallsmile:


Defensive measures for a Sorcerer... Wings of Cover might be a bit too much, judging by what you are implying about the group's power level. Ruin Delver's Fortune (SpC) and Greater Mirror Image (PHB2), combined with making sure he has enough prep time to get some rounds/level buffs up should go a long way.

Wings of cover is there so the PC sorcerer doesn't waste him in one or two shots. The damage shouldn't be too ridiculous, but he may have some tricks up his sleeve. I think I'll keep and only use it in emergencies. I do think I'll swap confusion out for the ruin delver's fortune, though, as that is a nice defensive option.


Don't do it if your players are the kind that gets annoyed when characters die. Because Dominations do tend to make that happen.

Of course, and as I explained, they shouldn't. Good to know it can work.