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View Full Version : [3.5] Sword of the Arcane Order questions.



Fenryr
2010-12-08, 06:14 PM
Hi! 've done some research and some builds recommend that feat for Rangers (Champions of Valor book). But my questions are:

a) Why it's so great? 'm sure 'm missing something.

b) So, I can prepare arcane and divine spells. But 'm confused 'bout the slots: so a single slot is used for both Ranger Spells and Wizard Spells? Let's say I have only one spell slot, so I prepare Alarm (Ranger) and Shield (Wizard). If I use Alarm, what happens to Shield?

c) It's more useful if I use Shooting Star Ranger? (same book)

Thank you and pardon my newbiness: 've always been melee characters.

WarrenZig
2010-12-08, 06:31 PM
a) it gives you access to the wiz/sor spell list which is quite a bit better than what rangers have.

b) You use your spell slots to prepare a wizard spell, so you could slot in say Haste as a 3rd level spell and have that slot taken up until you can change it.
so you would choose either alarm or shield to take up the slot. You can only prepare 1 spell for each spell slot if you don't play a spontaneous caster.

c) One of the prereqs is to be a ranger of the shooting star and that provides a boost to your spell casting ability anyway, so yes it would work better.

SurlySeraph
2010-12-08, 06:35 PM
a) For the most part, wizard spells are better than ranger and paladin spells. There are also abusive means of making it very powerful, such as a paladin with the feat Battle Blessing, which auto-quickens his paladin spells - so with Battle Blessing and SotAO, you have a low-level quickened wizard spell every round. This gets worse if you allow Prestige Paladin or Prestige Ranger to qualify for SotAO, as it basically gives them simultaneous high-level cleric or druid *and* wizard casting.
There's also the Mystic Ranger alternate class feature, which gives the paladin up to 6th-level spells and a faster progression, making a Mystic Ranger with SotAO a pretty effective and very simple gish build.

b) You don't prepare multiple spells in the same slot, you can choose whether to prepare a wizard spell or ranger/paladin spell in each.

c) Shooting Star Ranger and Mystic Fire Knight Paladin do combine nicely with it, yes. Less so than Mystic Ranger or Prestige Paladin or Prestige Ranger, but more likely to be allowed.

Coidzor
2010-12-08, 06:36 PM
If Dragon Magazine is allowed, Mystic Ranger works well with this due to having spell slots from level 1 and thus having a better CL (and 5th level spell slots as well, in a sort of hybrid of bard and sorcerer spell progression, 1st level spells at 2, all other spell levels a level after the wizard)

Fenryr
2010-12-08, 07:13 PM
Thanks, guys (: Helped a lot.

HunterOfJello
2010-12-08, 07:18 PM
A Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order and a Wizard best friend is highly effective. They're ridiculously better than a normal ranger.

If you want to add more fun in, you can make them a Wildshape Ranger too. This way they turn into a pseudo-Arcane Druid.

Raendyn
2010-12-08, 07:31 PM
a) For the most part, wizard spells are better than ranger and paladin spells. There are also abusive means of making it very powerful, such as a paladin with the feat Battle Blessing, which auto-quickens his paladin spells - so with Battle Blessing and SotAO, you have a low-level quickened wizard spell every round. This gets worse if you allow Prestige Paladin or Prestige Ranger to qualify for SotAO, as it basically gives them simultaneous high-level cleric or druid *and* wizard casting.


There is a common mistake here,where people comfuse the term "paladin spells" with "paladin slots".Battle blessing is for paladin spells=spells from the paladin spell list.
So, Battle Blessing can not be used to quicken wizard spells in paladin spell slots...

Ozymandias
2010-12-08, 07:38 PM
b) So, I can prepare arcane and divine spells. But 'm confused 'bout the slots: so a single slot is used for both Ranger Spells and Wizard Spells? Let's say I have only one spell slot, so I prepare Alarm (Ranger) and Shield (Wizard). If I use Alarm, what happens to Shield?


This may be a trivial or presumptuous question, but why would you use the truncation " 'bout " in lieu of "about" when the former takes an additional keystroke to perform? I'm curious.

Raendyn
2010-12-08, 07:44 PM
This may be a trivial or presumptuous question, but why would you use the truncation " 'bout " in lieu of "about" when the former takes an additional keystroke to perform? I'm curious.

It's a deterministic ponit of view :smallbiggrin:

It's all `bout elegance...


btw i use " ` " with one key pressing. (the one next to "1", without shift or w/e)

Fenryr
2010-12-08, 08:47 PM
This may be a trivial or presumptuous question, but why would you use the truncation " 'bout " in lieu of "about" when the former takes an additional keystroke to perform? I'm curious.

If dwarves write down their accents, why I can't? :smalltongue:


Plus, it's only one key: between p and +.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-08, 09:34 PM
But you are a pixie.:smalltongue:

and it is a great feat BTW, improves the versatility of ranger straight into the high end of Tier 3 IMO, it has good combat options (ful Bab) decent saves, great skills (6+int which will be at least 15 if you are going SotAO) and a good deal of versatility (Wiz spells +ranger spells). Add ACF to taste.

In fact I think a Trapfinding Shooting Star Mystic Wildshape Ranger of the Arcane Order, is s a one man party by himself.

Fenryr
2010-12-08, 11:44 PM
d) In the end, the Wizard spells prepared by a Ranger with the feat, are they divine or arcane?

e) If I mix the feat and Shooting Star variant with Mystic Ranger, I don't get the bonus spell of level 4, 8, 11 and 14, right? I have no animal companion for being a Mystic and the substitution asks me to lose the animal companion.

Thanks again.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-08, 11:54 PM
d) In the end, the Wizard spells prepared by a Ranger with the feat, are they divine or arcane?
There is debate about that, personally I would say arcane as they are cast of intelligence and need to be prepared from a spellbok, though YMMV

e) If I mix the feat and Shooting Star variant with Mystic Ranger, I don't get the bonus spell of level 4, 8, 11 and 14, right? I have no animal companion for being a Mystic and the substitution asks me to lose the animal companion.

Yeah sadly.
Thanks again.

Hope that helps

gorfnab
2010-12-09, 12:20 AM
In fact I think a Trapfinding Shooting Star Mystic Wildshape Ranger of the Arcane Order, is s a one man party by himself.
Especially in E6. Don't forget to add in Arcane Hunter ACF and the Nemesis feat so that you can find more spellbooks to copy from. :smallwink:

Coidzor
2010-12-09, 05:20 AM
Don't forget grabbing the wild cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat so you still get the pet/mount! :smallbiggrin:


d) In the end, the Wizard spells prepared by a Ranger with the feat, are they divine or arcane?

Unfortunately this is pretty much up to DM adjudication here. You're using Ranger slots but preparing wizard spells rather than having the wizard spells counting as part of your Ranger spell list. So they are still arcane spells that are being cast, but you're using divine means to cast them in the first place due to the spell slots.

So it's a bit of a the chicken or the egg scenario and whether the world you're running in has anything in its magic system that would support one over the other.

Personally, I'd go with them counting as arcane.

A potential feat to consider would be Academic Priest from DragonLance's Legends of the Twins, I believe. It would set your casting stat to Intelligence for your Ranger spell casting instead of wisdom. This would allow you to remove dependence on wisdom for anything but will saves, and work quite nicely with the 6+int skillpoints.

Eloel
2010-12-09, 06:42 AM
There's also the Mystic Ranger alternate class feature, which gives the paladin up to 6th-level spells and a faster progression, making a Mystic Ranger with SotAO a pretty effective and very simple gish build.


Wait what? Next you'll be telling me Cloistered Cleric gives an extra domain to Fighters. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

SurlySeraph
2010-12-09, 10:58 AM
...yes. Yes it does grant an extra domain to fighters.

I also highly recommend that all Bards take the Zhentarim Fighter substitution levels.
:smalltongue:

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-09, 12:54 PM
Especially in E6. Don't forget to add in Arcane Hunter ACF and the Nemesis feat so that you can find more spellbooks to copy from. :smallwink:

While I don't like E6, I agree with you

Grim Reader
2010-12-10, 08:33 AM
There is a common mistake here,where people comfuse the term "paladin spells" with "paladin slots".Battle blessing is for paladin spells=spells from the paladin spell list.
So, Battle Blessing can not be used to quicken wizard spells in paladin spell slots...

Unless you go Geomancer. Which you can qualify for as a single-class in this case.

Saintheart
2010-12-10, 08:54 AM
Unless you go Geomancer. Which you can qualify for as a single-class in this case.

Another cheesy option is Prestige Paladin: on the RAW, you continue to advance in the spellcasting class that you had before you went PP, making them effectively -- on RAW -- your paladin spells for the purpose of later feats. Battle Blessing thereby becomes a Quicken Metamagic feat for free, with no higher spell slots blown at all. When you start combining this with the Belt of Battle for extra swift and standard actions in a round, or as a cleric with the 7th level of Ruby Knight WINdicator which allows you to blow turn undeads for additional swift actions per round, it gets hilarious.

Godskook
2010-12-10, 02:43 PM
Another cheesy option is Prestige Paladin: on the RAW, you continue to advance in the spellcasting class that you had before you went PP, making them effectively -- on RAW -- your paladin spells for the purpose of later feats. Battle Blessing thereby becomes a Quicken Metamagic feat for free, with no higher spell slots blown at all. When you start combining this with the Belt of Battle for extra swift and standard actions in a round, or as a cleric with the 7th level of Ruby Knight WINdicator which allows you to blow turn undeads for additional swift actions per round, it gets hilarious.

Belt of Battle *costs* a swift to use, and only grants non-swift action types.

tyckspoon
2010-12-10, 03:04 PM
Another cheesy option is Prestige Paladin: on the RAW, you continue to advance in the spellcasting class that you had before you went PP, making them effectively -- on RAW -- your paladin spells for the purpose of later feats. Battle Blessing thereby becomes a Quicken Metamagic feat for free, with no higher spell slots blown at all. When you start combining this with the Belt of Battle for extra swift and standard actions in a round, or as a cleric with the 7th level of Ruby Knight WINdicator which allows you to blow turn undeads for additional swift actions per round, it gets hilarious.

arrrrrgh. PRESTIGE PALADIN DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. By RAW, it advances the casting of whatever class you entered it with. It expands the spell list of that class. You never have Paladin spells with Prestige Paladin, any more than you have Sandshaper spells or Fiend-blooded spells or Contemplative spell or anything else that expands your spell list; you just have more options on your Ranger/Cleric/Druid/whatever list. Battle Blessing doesn't work with it by anything other than DM generosity.

Raendyn
2010-12-12, 04:36 AM
arrrrrgh. PRESTIGE PALADIN DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. By RAW, it advances the casting of whatever class you entered it with. It expands the spell list of that class. You never have Paladin spells with Prestige Paladin, any more than you have Sandshaper spells or Fiend-blooded spells or Contemplative spell or anything else that expands your spell list; you just have more options on your Ranger/Cleric/Druid/whatever list. Battle Blessing doesn't work with it by anything other than DM generosity.

Partly right. we do not care about the list ( nor the slots as i mentioned before). the spell must be a paladin spell, thats the rule! so by adding all paladin spells to your whatever(let's say cleric) spell list, you can now cast those spells as if the spellcasting time was modified by quiken metamagic. By saying "those spells" i mean the paladin spells which by the way use your cleric spell slots & belong to your cleric spell list and only them, your cleric spells who also are in you cleric spell list & also use your cleric spell slots to cast are not modified by anything & are cast normally!that it..

zugschef
2010-12-20, 05:41 PM
d) In the end, the Wizard spells prepared by a Ranger with the feat, are they divine or arcane?

e) If I mix the feat and Shooting Star variant with Mystic Ranger, I don't get the bonus spell of level 4, 8, 11 and 14, right? I have no animal companion for being a Mystic and the substitution asks me to lose the animal companion.

Thanks again.
d) they are divine.
you prepare wizard spells in ranger spellslots, which means that you cast these spells like a ranger (even if you use your int) which means that they suffer no arcane spell failure chance. but this also means that you do NOT qualify for arcane casting requirements however, since you do NOT cast arcane spells.

e) that's right. but you get more spells per day anyway, you do not miss anything.

btw:
you do NOT get a spellbook through this feat and you can NOT write spells into a spellbook unless you get access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list somehow (by taking a level of wizard or sorcerer for example). remember that sotao only gives you the ability to cast these spells with your ranger spell slots and nowhere does the feat say that you get access to this spell list. thus, either the order provides you with a spellbook, or you share a spellbook with a wizard buddy or you use a foreign one.

another thing: a mystic ranger's caster level is very much up to the dm. it is not mentioned in the magazine and the core rules say that you do not have a caster level up to level 4. if your dm is a ****, he'll rule that you simply don't have a caster level through the first 3 levels, which makes any spells which involve caster level pretty useless.

and finally: the shooting star's 1st sub level is at level 3 and trades off endurance. unfortunately mystic rangers get endurance at level 4. if you want to take this sub level your dm must agree that you can take it at level 4 instead.

Curmudgeon
2010-12-20, 05:55 PM
d) they are divine.
you prepare wizard spells in ranger spellslots, which means that you cast these spells like a ranger which means that they suffer no arcane spell failure chance.
I can't find any merit in this argument. Can you point to some part of the rules which states that slots have an arcane or divine type, and modify the type of the spells prepared in them?

The Sword of the Arcane Order's short description is: "Members of your military order have a special connection with arcane magic." and the benefit of the feat is: "You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare Wizard spells." The details of preparing Wizard spells are contained in the Arcane Spells section of the Player's Handbook Magic chapter, starting on page 177.

zugschef
2010-12-20, 06:21 PM
I can't find any merit in this argument. Can you point to some part of the rules which states that slots have an arcane or divine type, and modify the type of the spells prepared in them?

The Sword of the Arcane Order's short description is: "Members of your military order have a special connection with arcane magic." and the benefit of the feat is: "You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare Wizard spells." The details of preparing Wizard spells are contained in the Arcane Spells section of the Player's Handbook Magic chapter, starting on page 177.
a simple answer: nowhere does this quote say that swords of the arcane order cast arcane spells. it says that they may prepare them.

longer:
if you look into the player's handbook and look under the bard spell list, you'll find the cure wounds series. if a bard casts these spells, they are arcane and not divine. actually a lot more spells happen to be on the list of arcane and divine caster classes.

and the logic behind it is that if you use ranger spell slots, you cast as a ranger casts, which means that the spells cast are actually divine.

edit somehow forgot the intended quote:

Clerics, druids, experienced paladins, and experienced rangers can cast divine spells.

i know that the argument goes along the following line: arcane spells are prepared from a spellbook using your intelligence and divine spells are prepared via praying and your wisdom.

and i really do not argue that you could use this feat this way. but as it stands, the feat simply does not explicitly say that you cast arcane spells...

but really... i guess this is a little similar to the question if dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons... so maybe let's agree that it's up to the dm.

what is clear, however, if they are arcane then you suffer from acf.

Coidzor
2010-12-20, 06:55 PM
another thing: a mystic ranger's caster level is very much up to the dm. it is not mentioned in the magazine and the core rules say that you do not have a caster level up to level 4. if your dm is a ****, he'll rule that you simply don't have a caster level through the first 3 levels, which makes any spells which involve caster level pretty useless.

Though if the DM is that much of a ****, don't play with someone like that.

zugschef
2010-12-20, 07:08 PM
Though if the DM is that much of a ****, don't play with someone like that.
well, this is indisputably RAW...

Coidzor
2010-12-20, 07:12 PM
well, this is indisputably RAW...

That doesn't make a bit of difference and you know it. After all, you're the one that termed such an individual a ****.

RAW is second to to the ability of the game to be played.