Need Some Cheese, please!

[Halna LeGavilk]

So... I've been challenged to a D&D match (that is to say, a level 20 Gestalt PVP match). Our DM says level 20, gestalt, anything goes, base rules. How best to break the game? We know we are fighting a month ahead of time, and so have a month of prep time, and my character's been level 20 for approximately 30 years, and so can have been making normal level twenty stuff for 30 years.

So, I have a level 20 Gray Elf Wizard with an Int in the High Twenties/Low Thirties, and am planning on having Druid/Planar Shepherd on the other side. How best to do I break this? I'm just looking for ideas- the ultimate planning will be in my hands. Thanks everyone! :smallbiggrin:

[Tvtyrant]

Your..Both sides? Or does each side get two people?

[Valameer]

What books and sources are available to you? Is your DM comfortable with 3rd party sources?

And by "D&D Match", do you mean an arena fight vs another 20th level gestalt?

[Halna LeGavilk]

@Tvtyrant: It's Gestalt.

@Lyceios: It's a Level 20 Gestalt PVP in an arena match. He says Official WotC 3.5 D&D only. EDIT: But, within that, anything goes.

[AshDesert]

Your..Both sides? Or does each side get two people?

It's a gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltcharacters.htm) Gray Elf Wizard 20//Druid/Planar Shepherd.

My suggestion would be to try and fit in enough metamagic to go Incatatrix on the Wizard side. At the very least try to qualify for some sort of full-casting PrC on the Wizard too, you get nothing by staying with Wizard.

[Urpriest]

It's a gestalt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltcharacters.htm) Gray Elf Wizard 20//Druid/Planar Shepherd.

My suggestion would be to try and fit in enough metamagic to go Incatatrix on the Wizard side. At the very least try to qualify for some sort of full-casting PrC on the Wizard too, you get nothing by staying with Wizard.

On the other hand, every level he takes Incantatrix is one he can't take Planar Shepherd, with standard gestalt rules. Food for thought.

[Halna LeGavilk]

One sec. It's possibly to get into Incantatrix at level 11, and I only need 5 levels of Planar Shepherd to get the 10:1 time ratio. Like so:

Wizard/Druid
Wizard/Druid
Wizard/Druid
Wizard/Druid
Wizard/Druid
Wizard/Planar Shepherd
Wizard/Planar Shepherd
Wizard/Planar Shepherd
Wizard/Planar Shepherd
Wizard/Planar Shepherd
Incantatrix/Druid
Incantatrix/Druid
Incantatrix/Druid
Incantatrix/Druid
Incantatrix/Druid
Incantatrix/Druid
Incantatrix/Druid
Incantatrix/Druid
Incantatrix/Druid
Incantatrix/Druid

[Tvtyrant]

Or you could take Malconvoker instead of Incantrix with the same scheme, and then use the sudden maximize feat to create 6 decently high CR Devils around the enemy at once. You would also get some good stuff out of Planar Ally (like a Balor).

[AshDesert]

On the other hand, every level he takes Incantatrix is one he can't take Planar Shepherd, with standard gestalt rules. Food for thought.

I forgot about that rule. Hmm, Archmage is another possibility if you want to take all of Planar Shepherd. I suppose Incatatrix//Planar Shepherd would be a pretty ridiculous level up. Depends on how much you value Planar Shepherd compared to whichever Wizard PrC you choose.

[Goober4473]

If all of 3.5 is allowed RAW, why not just be Pun Pun?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I take it abuse that can result in infinite loops or basically invincible characters is frowned upon? Otherwise this is going to be one boring match.

Round 1, your turn: I spam some sort of divination from my arbitrarily-high-action-granting demiplane to figure out where my foe is.

Answer: He is in his own arbitrarily-high-action-granting demiplane, which you cannot reach. He also knows that you are in your demiplane. The first one to step out gets annihilated.

Alternatively,

Round 1, your turn: You already died because the opponent traveled back in time to kill your character before he was powerful. If something went wrong he used one of many save game tricks to retry the early assassination attempt until he was successful.Assuming your characters actually meet on the same plane at the right time with no arbitrarily large or infinite stats floating around, no epic or near-epic level friends gated or simulacrum'd in, no epic level spell shenanigans, no "oh that was just my astral projection" crap...

If you're in a bind for other PrCs, you only really need 3 levels of Incantatrix. The rest is just gravy. Just persist every single applicable buff you can get your hands on using Metamagic Effect and possibly Cooperative Metamagic depending on how you use your familiar. This might mean dipping Archmage for Arcane Reach (or just taking Reach Spell or Ocular Spell) so you can buff yourself with tasty touch range spells.

Focus your buffs on detection and going first, but don't skimp on defense in general in case things go wrong. If it actually gets to your turn, you'll have enough offense with your large number of standard actions to either take him down or seriously cramp his style. I'd suggest starting off with MDJ or some other Dispel, then probing your enemy's remaining defenses with various kinds of attack spells.

I guess the build would go something like Wizard 15/Incantatrix 4/Archmage 1//Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 10/Druid +5

[FMArthur]

If you're already doing a Planar Shepherd cheesefest to get a 10:1 action advantage, you might as well turn it into 110:1 with Beholder Mage. :smallamused:

Here:

"Convert Spell to Power" Erudite 20 // Druid 5 / Planar Shepherd 5 / Beholder Mage 2 / Arcane Hierophant 8

At level 10 I strongly recommend finding an actual Beholder to knock out, manifesting Astral Seed from a power stone to put your soul into a crystal, Overchanneling a Mind Switch from another power stone with the unconscious (he autofails the save) Beholder, and finally smashing the soul crystal to forever keep a Beholder form. It is superior to PAO and Aberrant Wild Shape because it becomes your true form forever (irreversable, undispellable), requires only the Overchannel feat, and keeps your own mental ability scores. You get into and use Beholder Mage the normal way; take Metamorphic Transfer twice for the two (Su) features you need.

You have: 18th level Druid casting (rigged), 20th-level StP Erudite casting (mega-rigged), 10th level Beholder Mage casting (OMGWTF rigged), 10 turns per round, 10 free action spells a turn, and possibly Erudite-fuelled action economy abuse if you can't make your turn long and complicated enough for your satisfaction. You win everything forever.

[eggynack]

Arcane Hierophant 8

Isn't there some rule against dual progression classes in gestalt? Although honestly the stp erudite isn't doing all that much in this combo.

[Innis Cabal]

Isn't there some rule against dual progression classes in gestalt? Although honestly the stp erudite isn't doing all that much in this combo.

No, it's just not as helpful as 20 druid/wizard.

[AshDesert]

You have: 18th level Druid casting (rigged), 20th-level StP Erudite casting (mega-rigged), 10th level Beholder Mage casting (OMGWTF rigged), 10 turns per round, 10 free action spells a turn, and possibly Erudite-fuelled action economy abuse if you can't make your turn long and complicated enough for your satisfaction. You win everything forever.

I think you win the thread.

I think the action economy needs to go cry in a corner.

[Vulaas]

Whatever you care about 20//Ardent (Dominant Ideal: Time)/Metamind 10

Linked power Synchronicity. Infinite power points. Even with theoretically infinite saves and the pride domain, smart bet is on them getting a nat 1 twice in a row on their save before you get tired of laughing evilly as you tell them to make yet another saving throw.

[Defiant]

Round 1, your turn: I spam some sort of divination from my arbitrarily-high-action-granting demiplane to figure out where my foe is.

Answer: He is in his own arbitrarily-high-action-granting demiplane, which you cannot reach. He also knows that you are in your demiplane. The first one to step out gets annihilated.

Absolutely awesome! :smallbiggrin:

[JeminiZero]

I think the action economy needs to go cry in a corner.

Actually, it was already driven completely insane several months back (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151109).

[Godskook]

Actually, it was already driven completely insane several months back (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151109).

Nah, see, the action economy likes it rough, and the rougher the better, apparently. Why else would there be so many ways to go infinite?

[FelixG]

If all of 3.5 is allowed RAW, why not just be Pun Pun?

this about covers it

Doesnt get more cheesy than this

Conversely you could roll up "The Word"

[Myth]

Why do you tell us that you have a Grey Elf Wizard character? Do you have to use his current stats/class levels or can you start from scratch?

Beholder Mage while all kinds of awesome, requires actions prior to battle (switching your mind with a Beholder). If the rules say: step in the ring, roll initative, start fighting" you won't make it work.

To avoid this just go a more modest build. Whisper Gnome Conjurer (Abrupt Jaunt) 3 / Master Conjurer 2, Incantatrix 10 (buy entry in Otyugh Hole to get Iron WIll for 3000 gp.), Archmage 2 (Arcane Reach x1, SLA: Timestop x1) and whaver you want for the last 3 class levels.

On your other side go for a pure Factotum 20.

Now, even if you are not allowed buffing rounds remember that you can apply Persistent Spell to a spell with a duration and a fixed range via Incantatrix with a Spellcraft check. This means that you don't need a buffing round because you always walk around with 24hr duration Shapechange, Mind Blank, Favored of the Martyr (cast via wand), Foresight and True Seeing.

Shapechange into a Dire Tortoise (free action). Cast Celerity. Cast Maximized Timestop (via Rod). Gate in some Epic monsters (you can raise your Caster Level legitimately without any gimmicks if you take more Archmage levels and buy an Ioun Stone). Shapechange into something incorporeal and travel below ground. Have a Gated Solar assume your form via his ability.

Round #1 begins and your opponent faces you (but actually a Solar that looks like you. His True Sight will think you Shapechanged into a Solar that then transfomed back into your original form) plus an arbitrary ammount of Great Wyrm dragons or epic Beholders or whatever you can find that is worth Gating in. He does what he does (you can be 500 feet below ground then, using full round travel with some speed boosting spell).

Round #2 cast a Quickened Greater Teleport to get back to the surface. Use your Factotum shenanigans to get more actions. Shapechange into a choker as a free action. Rain hell on him.

[FMArthur]

Isn't there some rule against dual progression classes in gestalt? Although honestly the stp erudite isn't doing all that much in this combo.

While that particular rule is just a suggestion, the whole gestalt ruleset is a suggestion to begin with, so I'll concede that dual-progression really shouldn't work here. But that build isn't dependent on it at all; the only reason a full StP Erudite, full Beholder Mage caster would even care about the Druid spells is filling actions because he generates so many. So it can stop at 10th level Druid casting and be fine.

The Erudite is important for fulfilling the manifester level requirement on Metamorphic Transfer, and because of the way psionic power stones differ from spell scrolls, is required to be able to manifest both Astral Seed and Mind Switch (discipline powers) without being way higher level and using Expanded Knowledge. And it's not like Erudites aren't great anyway, so you might as well use it for the entirety of the gestalt side that is basically disallowed from using prestige classes. Besides, having two twinned augmented Synchronicity powers per turn (courtesy of Schism) to have four unconditional, unspecified readied actions might come in handy if you're concerned that the enemy might get an opportunity to do something in between your three-hour-long spell combo descriptions. :smallwink:

[BeholderSlayer]

StP Erudites are more than great, all by themselves they are baahhrooooken.

[FMArthur]

StP Erudites are more than great, all by themselves they are baahhrooooken.

I wouldn't go that far. Ordinary Erudite is a weaker-than-Psion Tier 2; the UPD limitation is very severe, and to make best use of the advantage that you take this handicap for (learn lots of powers), you've got to drain yourself of XP so much that you are always a level behind (but never much more because of XP reward scaling). Convert Spell to Power is a significant power rise just because of the versatility gain, let alone the comparative power of Wizard spells to Psion powers; I'd say it bumps him up to a weak Tier 1. But nothing more. He learns spells 2 levels later than a Wizard would and must hemorrhage XP even harder to keep up with both powers and spells, putting him actually much further behind. An StP Erudite is just not casting level-appropriate spells by any means. You've still got a very low practical usage limit as well.

[RaveingRonin]

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868070/LoPs_Omniscificer

Then spend the last 15 levels on whatever you want. Cause it doesn't matter now, you've won.

[Psyren]

I wouldn't go that far. Ordinary Erudite is a weaker-than-Psion Tier 2; the UPD limitation is very severe, and to make best use of the advantage that you take this handicap for (learn lots of powers), you've got to drain yourself of XP so much that you are always a level behind (but never much more because of XP reward scaling)

Actually, by RAW Erudites have more UPD than they know what to do with - text trumps table.

[Kansaschaser]

Everyone typically makes the most powerful spellcaster possible.

Your opponent will probably do the same. I suggest you make something that can fight in an Anti-Magic zone. That way you can negate opponents spells.

Here is the suggested build: Wizard 10 / Swiftblade 10 then the ghestalt would be Warblade 20 or some equally powerful martial class.

When the fight starts, you should be able to beat your opponent in initative and cast Haste as a free action, then cast Anti-Magic zone. Your haste will still work in the Anti-Magic zone. Your opponent will probably be useless in an anti-magic zone.

If you happen to be fighting another martial character, don't use Anti-Magic zone and wail on his toon with spells.

[Myth]

Everyone typically makes the most powerful spellcaster possible.

Your opponent will probably do the same. I suggest you make something that can fight in an Anti-Magic zone. That way you can negate opponents spells.

Here is the suggested build: Wizard 10 / Swiftblade 10 then the ghestalt would be Warblade 20 or some equally powerful martial class.

When the fight starts, you should be able to beat your opponent in initative and cast Haste as a free action, then cast Anti-Magic zone. Your haste will still work in the Anti-Magic zone. Your opponent will probably be useless in an anti-magic zone.

If you happen to be fighting another martial character, don't use Anti-Magic zone and wail on his toon with spells.

... :smallannoyed:

If you want to overcome AMF go with Conjurer 3 / Master Conjurer 2 / Incantatrix 5 / Conjurer 10 on one side and with a Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 10 / Dweomerkeeper 10 on the other. Take Initate of Mystra. Dweomerkeepr advances Cleric casting. That is all.

[Kansaschaser]

... :smallannoyed:

If you want to overcome AMF go with Conjurer 3 / Master Conjurer 2 / Incantatrix 5 / Conjurer 10 on one side and with a Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 10 / Dweomerkeeper 10 on the other. Take Initate of Mystra. Dweomerkeepr advances Cleric casting. That is all.

What are the chances your opponent will choose this very specific character combination if they don't know what you are planning? The Swiftblade combo is very versatile if you pick the right spells.

[BeholderSlayer]

Using anti-magic is always a bad idea. It's like announcing to the opponent: "I'm a sucker, please kill me and put me out of my misery."

[Kansaschaser]

Using anti-magic is always a bad idea. It's like announcing to the opponent: "I'm a sucker, please kill me and put me out of my misery."

But the anti-magic zone + swiftblade trick can be used to defeat 99% of the optimized caster builds out there and 70% of the martial builds. It's a good build to play if you don't know what you opponent is playing.

If you each know what each other is playing before the match, it's probably not a good idea. Your opponent will probably memorize a ton of Walls of Force and Prismatic Walls (which still work in an anti-magic zone).

If you don't have to tell each other what you are playing, it's a nice trick.

[BeholderSlayer]

But the anti-magic zone + swiftblade trick can be used to defeat 99% of the optimized caster builds out there and 70% of the martial builds. It's a good build to play if you don't know what you opponent is playing.

If you each know what each other is playing before the match, it's probably not a good idea. Your opponent will probably memorize a ton of Walls of Force and Prismatic Walls (which still work in an anti-magic zone).

If you don't have to tell each other what you are playing, it's a nice trick.

Anti-magic field puts you one Shadow Conjuration: Minor Creation away from instant Black Lotus death, not to mention a ripe sitting duck for Orb of X spells.

[Kansaschaser]

Anti-magic field puts you one Shadow Conjuration: Minor Creation away from instant Black Lotus death, not to mention a ripe sitting duck for Orb of X spells.

Cojured items and creatures do not persist in an Anti-Magic zone, so your Orb of X spells will not work.

And what is a "Black Lotus death"?

[kestrel404]

If you want serious Int synergy and spontaneous access to effectively every spell in the game (except a handful of the obscure divine spells) try:

Spell-to-power Erudite 20//Beguiler 10/Rainbow Servant 10

StP Erudite 20 gives you effectively spontaneous casting of every arcane spell (you don't have to just learn wizard spells). This also means you can use the lowest level available for every arcane spell.

Beguiler spontaneously casts any spell on his class list. Rainbow Servant 10 adds all cleric spells (plus law, good and air domains) to the beguiler's class spell lists. So, spontaneous casting to virtually every divine spell. And if the spell is divine only (i.e. you don't have it for the Erudite side), then you cast it as a divine spell.

Oh, and you can wear heavy armor (both divine spells and powers ignore arcane spell failure). So full adamantine plate and a tower shield work just fine as long as you're not making attack rolls (or if you dip a level or warblade or something).

[BeholderSlayer]

Cojured items and creatures do not persist in an Anti-Magic zone, so your Orb of X spells will not work.

And what is a "Black Lotus death"?

Instantaneous Conjurations most absolutely do persist in an Anti-Magic FIELD (it's FIELD, not ZONE). It is specifically stated in the spell description.

Black Lotus death refers to using Minor Creation, brought about as a standard action by Shadow Conjuration, to create gallons and gallons of Black Lotus poison. You make thousands of fortitude saves to resist 3d6 constitution damage.

Minor Creation makes nonmagical matter, so as long as it is created outside the field (like directly above it) it will persist once inside.

[Defiant]

Fighting in an anti-magic field means you will be killed to death by orb spells. Not an option.


Cojured items and creatures do not persist in an Anti-Magic zone, so your Orb of X spells will not work.

They do work, because an orb of fire is not a magical effect. It's conjured up magically, but after its conjuration, it's just fire. Anti-magic fields do not prevent fire from passing through them. Or sound. Or electricity...

[Kansaschaser]

Instantaneous Conjurations most absolutely do persist in an Anti-Magic FIELD (it's FIELD, not ZONE). It is specifically stated in the spell description.

Black Lotus death refers to using Minor Creation, brought about as a standard action by Shadow Conjuration, to create gallons and gallons of Black Lotus poison. You make thousands of fortitude saves to resist 3d6 constitution damage.

Minor Creation makes nonmagical matter, so as long as it is created outside the field (like directly above it) it will persist once inside.

Ok, I looked it up and you are correct about the Instantaneous Conjurations, as long as you cast the spell outside of the anti-magic zone. But the Swiftblade is an in-your-face fighter. There isn't much a spellcaster could do once INSIDE the anti-magic zone.

As for the Black Lotus poison... Minor Creation has a duration. So it will not persist inside the anti-magic zone.

[Defiant]

Ok, I looked it up and you are correct about the Instantaneous Conjurations, as long as you cast the spell outside of the anti-magic zone. But the Swiftblade is an in-your-face fighter. There isn't much a spellcaster could do once INSIDE the anti-magic zone.

Contingencies. Any high-level wizard worth his salt will have an anti-magic field contingency or escape.

[BeholderSlayer]

As for the Black Lotus poison... Minor Creation has a duration. So it will not persist inside the anti-magic zone.

It's not magical. Anti-magic has no effect.


Minor Creation
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: Unattended, nonmagical object of nonliving plant matter, up to 1 cu. ft./level
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. You must succeed on an appropriate skill check to make a complex item.

Attempting to use any created object as a material component causes the spell to fail.
Material Component

A tiny piece of matter of the same sort of item you plan to create with minor creation.
Emphasis mine.

[Kansaschaser]

Contingencies. Any high-level wizard worth his salt will have an anti-magic field contingency or escape.

I've played many high level spellcasters and I've never used Contingency as a defense versus anti-magic field. So again, your opponent would need to know that is what you are going to play to have that back-up.

No one in their right mind would consider using Anti-Magic Field. They would think, "Wow, I have a lot of spell buffs right now. I'm sure my opponent will do the same with spells and/or magic items. There's no way he would use Anti-Magic Field. That would make him virtually useless. No one would gimp themselves like that!"

Other than having a few Orb spells and/or Walls of Force, most spellcasters are not prepared for an Anti-Magic Field for a PvP fight.

Even with the Orb spells, you have to hit the touch AC of the swiftblade, which can be very high and you then have a 50% miss chance on all spells and attacks.

[BeholderSlayer]

I rarely use contingency as an AMF defense. That's what shrunken baskets and adamantine hats are for.

[Kansaschaser]

"The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result."

I've DM'd for many years and I've always said that conjured items with a non-instantaneous duration do not exist inside an Anti-Magic Field/Zone.

Therefore, Minor Creation will not work. As soon as the Black Lotus poison dropped into the Anti-Magic Field/Zone, it would no longer exist. Once the field moved away from where the poison dropped, it would fall to the ground as normal.

If Minor Creation was instantaneous, then it would work inside the Anti-Magic Field/Zone.

If you cast Detect Magic at an item that was created with Minor Creation, it would appear as magical in nature. You could make a Spellcraft check to determine that it's a spell in place and your DM might even tell you that it was an item created with Minor Creation. If you are a 20th level caster, the item created would cease to exist after 20 hours.

[BeholderSlayer]

"The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result."

I've DM'd for many years and I've always said that conjured items with a non-instantaneous duration do not exist inside an Anti-Magic Field/Zone.

Therefore, Minor Creation will not work. As soon as the Black Lotus poison dropped into the Anti-Magic Field/Zone, it would no longer exist. Once the field moved away from where the poison dropped, it would fall to the ground as normal.

If Minor Creation was instantaneous, then it would work inside the Anti-Magic Field/Zone.

If you cast Detect Magic at an item that was created with Minor Creation, it would appear as magical in nature. You could make a Spellcraft check to determine that it's a spell in place and your DM might even tell you that it was an item created with Minor Creation. If you are a 20th level caster, the item created would cease to exist after 20 hours.

I've DM'd for many years too. You can read it how you like, I suppose.

Nonmagical means nonmagical. I don't see how Detect Magic will work on a non-magical substance, but I guess causality doesn't matter sometimes.

It doesn't change the fact that AMF is a giant painted target of fail. Any spellcaster worth their salt will have a defense for it, and it makes your character weaker.

[tyckspoon]

What are the chances your opponent will choose this very specific character combination if they don't know what you are planning? The Swiftblade combo is very versatile if you pick the right spells.

Did you really just suggest that a Conjurer/Incantatrix//Cleric/Dweomerkeeper is a specialized counter-build? A build made out of two classes whose defining features are the ability to do whatever the heck they want? Pardon me while I boggle for a minute.

As for why you might see that show up.. perhaps they planned to use your tactic as well? Or maybe they just liked the feat; Initiate of Mystra does some useful things for your spell list even if you don't intend to use AMFs, like adding Anyspell/Greater to your regular spell list. AMF is usually just an elegant means of shooting yourself in the foot, but when your own spells still work.. it's a pretty useful combination attack/defense. Sure, your items go off, but you can still show up with Superior Resistance, Superior Invisibility, Ghostform, Greater Ironguard, Greater Mirror Image, Energy Immunity.. and be basically untouchable, because the only practical way to counter you is to Disjunct through your AMF. And when you make contact with your target, they lose all of their save boosters and resistance/immunity granting items and spells, making them an easy target for whatever way you feel like killing them. It's like your Swiftblade idea, only you aren't dealing with having to beat up your target using only your raw Strength score and non-magical weapon.

[randomhero00]

tainted scholar, ramp up that taint, be a necropolitan (no negatives from taint). Other side, factotom. You'll get 2 or 3 free standard actions. That plus celerity plus timestop is like 6 or 7 actions before he even acts with unbeatable DCs.

Or planar sheperd on the otherside if you really want to be cautious. Pick time domain. You get 10 free actions...

[Kansaschaser]

Did you really just suggest that a Conjurer/Incantatrix//Cleric/Dweomerkeeper is a specialized counter-build? A build made out of two classes whose defining features are the ability to do whatever the heck they want? Pardon me while I boggle for a minute.

As for why you might see that show up.. perhaps they planned to use your tactic as well? Or maybe they just liked the feat; Initiate of Mystra does some useful things for your spell list even if you don't intend to use AMFs, like adding Anyspell/Greater to your regular spell list. AMF is usually just an elegant means of shooting yourself in the foot, but when your own spells still work.. it's a pretty useful combination attack/defense. Sure, your items go off, but you can still show up with Superior Resistance, Superior Invisibility, Ghostform, Greater Ironguard, Greater Mirror Image, Energy Immunity.. and be basically untouchable, because the only practical way to counter you is to Disjunct through your AMF. And when you make contact with your target, they lose all of their save boosters and resistance/immunity granting items and spells, making them an easy target for whatever way you feel like killing them. It's like your Swiftblade idea, only you aren't dealing with having to beat up your target using only your raw Strength score and non-magical weapon.

I could be completely wrong about my suggested build.

I've always wanted to do a PvP style combat. I've made some very specific rules for doing a PvP style tournament, but none of my friends wanted to participate. Most of my friends (who have played D&D for years) said they would probably build a caster of some kind.

I'd like to get 10 people together and do a PvP style tournament with D&D 3.5 rules and see what people can come up with.

[randomhero00]

I could be completely wrong about my suggested build.

I've always wanted to do a PvP style combat. I've made some very specific rules for doing a PvP style tournament, but none of my friends wanted to participate. Most of my friends (who have played D&D for years) said they would probably build a caster of some kind.

I'd like to get 10 people together and do a PvP style tournament with D&D 3.5 rules and see what people can come up with.

If you do you should seperate casters and non casters. Casters can just break action economy too easily.

[Eldariel]

Swiftblade/Wizard/Abjurant Champion isn't terrible, really. See, the key is Swiftblade's level 10 ability, which is a Time Stop. Except it's a Time Stop based on their Haste-spell. Which in turn is Extraordinary. Which allows you to cast Time Stop and then AMF inside the Time Stop. Given Time Stop effectively prevents others from acting, this enables you to close in in spite of Contingencies and the usual defenses like shrunk items (unless they're Orbs, there's a location which is not covered by it). Now granted, this does not address rudimentary stuff like Astral Projections or the like, but against a number of unprepared casters, it could work.

Granted, it's not nearly as good as Initiate of Mystra using Time Stop (since IoM can cast AMF while benefitting of all his magic); that's actually strong and gives him a rather efficient protection against magic and an offensive tool against magic all at once. Master Specialist: Abjurer casting touch range AMFs and Arcane Archers shooting AMFs can also have some utility but generally it's easier to avoid attacks or offensive actions than it is to react to every Move Action, which is why having an AMF moving around can be extremely convenient.


But really, not using Contingencies on a high level caster? Huh? Anti-Magic Field is one of the biggest potential issues with its various delivery methods and unless you have Shrunk Hat blocking line of effect once AMF touches it or something of the sort, it seems like a v. good idea to have one-two Contingencies prepared to Teleport or whatever in the event of an AMF 15' away. Or, if you're a bit more cunning, you can tie AMFs to a word; speaking is a free action that can be taken out of Initiative Order so this way, so as long as you're not flat-footed (and with Foresight, you're never flat-footed) you can trigger a Contingency at your whimsy.

Invoke Magic helps a bit but I'd like to believe anyone going through the trouble of hitting you with an AMF would also have the capacity to make casting spells or moving near them impossible inside the AMF; achieving such should be rather trivial and as such, will be left as an exercise to the readers.

But yeah, I just can't see how any optimized caster could be totally effed in an AMF; I mean, that just doesn't smell very optimized to me. There are billions of options from Beholder Tanks (they're naturally buoyant; very convenient) to alternative bodies (many things from Magic Jar to replicated Mind Switches can accomplish this; body of a Tarrasque or even just a big Golem can be much harder to get into an AMF and keep there) to effects blocking line of effect (like the Shrunk Item'd hat; once AMF touches you, Shrunk Item is suppressed and the hat grows to its original size blocking LoE) to contingent LoE blocks or teleportation works. And that's assuming the person in question can be found; Ghostform, Shapechange, Etherealness, Superior Invisibility and so on make it rather hard to pinpoint anyone who doesn't wish to be found, and walls (inside which you can be while Incorporeal) block line of effect for most things.

It's just...it's not that easy. If it were, casters wouldn't be as good as they are.

[Kansaschaser]

Also, when I talked about this idea to my friends, some of them said if they were playing a spellcaster (and most of them said they would), one of the first things they would do would be to cast Mage's Disjunction to destroy all their opponents magical effects and magic items. I mean seriously, haven't you played in a campaign where at some point you get Mage's Disjunction cast at your party? I've almost had people quit because they lost all their magic items.

The only defense I know to counter Disjunction is an Anti-Magic Field. There is only a % chance for Mage's Disjunction to dispell and Anti-Magic Field. Even if it dispells the Anti-Magic Field, the spells and magic items inside the field are unaffected.

You could then cast Anti-Magic Field again before they use another Mage's Disjunction.

I would never seperate the casters from the non-casters in a PvP battelfield. Rangers, Bards, Factotums, and Paladins would be lumped in with the casters.

[Eldariel]

The only defense I know to counter Disjunction is an Anti-Magic Field. There is only a % chance for Mage's Disjunction to dispell and Anti-Magic Field. Even if it dispells the Anti-Magic Field, the spells and magic items inside the field are unaffected.

The better counters to Disjunction are countermagic (there are ways to counter spells as an immediate, or a free action) and certain items; e.g. Ring of Spell-Battle [Magic Item Compendium] can redirect Disjunction. AMF, unfortunately, means you're sitting duck (no magical defenses means the Orb of X-line spell just demolishes you, and you can't fly or burrow or teleport or see invisibles or any such so locating and reaching your opponent is like to be near impossible) unless you fall into the few select categories that can do stuff inside AMFs (Initiate of Mystra is the big one here with free access to magic).

[Kansaschaser]

The better counters to Disjunction are countermagic (there are ways to counter spells as an immediate, or a free action) and certain items; e.g. Ring of Spell-Battle [Magic Item Compendium] can redirect Disjunction. AMF, unfortunately, means you're sitting duck (no magical defenses means the Orb of X-line spell just demolishes you, and you can't fly or burrow or teleport or see invisibles or any such so locating and reaching your opponent is like to be near impossible) unless you fall into the few select categories that can do stuff inside AMFs (Initiate of Mystra is the big one here with free access to magic).

Yes, of course there are always was out of everything, but you have to be prepared for everything. And with the limited ammount of money you get from a level 20 character, you might not be able to plan for everything.

Ring of Spell-Battle will let you know that Mage's Disjunction is being cast, but you can't use it to re-direct the spell to a different target. Mage's Disjunction does not have a target. It's and area of effect.

Mage’s Disjunction
Abjuration
Level: Magic 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: All magical effects and magic items within a 40-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No

All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined. That is, spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does), and each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item. An item in a creature’s possession uses its own Will save bonus or its possessor’s Will save bonus, whichever is higher.

You also have a 1% chance per caster level of destroying an antimagic field. If the antimagic field survives the disjunction, no items within it are disjoined.

Even artifacts are subject to disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)

Note: Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device.

[BeholderSlayer]

Mage's Disjunction is, again, blocked by the Shrunken Hat. Your familiar can ready its action to speak the command word when a disjunction is thrown your way. Command word is spoken and your hat enlarges, blocking line of effect, and the disjunction succeeds only in dispelling your shrink item spell. Pretty much anything that blocks line of effect renders Disjunction useless. And, of course, there are contingencies that can do it too.

You know a level 9 spell is weak when it's foiled by a level 2 spell.

[Kansaschaser]

Mage's Disjunction is, again, blocked by the Shrunken Hat. Your familiar can ready its action to speak the command word when a disjunction is thrown your way. Command word is spoken and your hat enlarges, blocking line of effect, and the disjunction succeeds only in dispelling your shrink item spell. Pretty much anything that blocks line of effect renders Disjunction useless. And, of course, there are contingencies that can do it too.

You know a level 9 spell is weak when it's foiled by a level 2 spell.

A shrunken hat is easily removed if it's an obstacle. How many shrunken hats will you have on your character? Seems like a very simple obstacle to overcome.

And what if they use a Greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken on the Mage's Disjunction?

Or what if they use any of the other options to hide their spellcasting?

[tyckspoon]

A shrunken hat is easily removed if it's an obstacle. How many shrunken hats will you have on your character? Seems like a very simple obstacle to overcome.

And what if they use a Greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken on the Mage's Disjunction?

Or what if they use any of the other options to hide their spellcasting?

It's not meant to be a perfect defense. It's just a very cheap defense that can be prepared ahead of time and forces your opponent to spend a disproportional amount of effort to deal with it. Which means you gain an advantage, as basically no matter what your opponent does to respond to it he's going to be spending immediately useful things to get rid of something that was functionally free for you, revealing more of his capabilities and using up some of the actions he should have been using to attack you (if he's using, say, a Quickened Disintegrate to blow a hole in your hat, he's not using it to cast Assay Spell Resistance or True Strike or Quickened Greater Dispel Magic to try and get rid of your defensive buffs or.. well, a huge number of things that would be much more directly dangerous.)

[BeholderSlayer]

A shrunken hat is easily removed if it's an obstacle. How many shrunken hats will you have on your character? Seems like a very simple obstacle to overcome. How many level 9 slots are you going to waste on Disjunction?


And what if they use a Greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken on the Mage's Disjunction?
That would be irrelevant. Quickened spells are still subject to both counterspelling and identification.


Or what if they use any of the other options to hide their spellcasting?
That's what contingencies are for.

High level spellcasting duels aren't won by things like Disjunction and AMF. They are won by smart tactics, and using the these things doesn't qualify.

[FMArthur]

Actually, by RAW Erudites have more UPD than they know what to do with - text trumps table.

But I'm talking about their relative power in actual play, where humans are reading the books and playing the game with other humans. Sorry, but if you've ever played an Erudite that way, I'm going to outright call you a cheater. It is plain as day that it was intended you use the table's numbers to determine your total unique powers of all levels together. This is like Monk fist nonproficiency in stupidity, so I don't see why it has to be brought up every time the class is mentioned.

[BeholderSlayer]

But I'm talking about their relative power in actual play, where humans are reading the books and playing the game with other humans. Sorry, but if you've ever played an Erudite that way, I'm going to outright call you a cheater. It is plain as day that it was intended you use the table's numbers to determine your total unique powers of all levels together. This is like Monk fist nonproficiency in stupidity, so I don't see why it has to be brought up every time the class is mentioned.

I don't think it's fair to call somebody a cheater that's playing by the rules. The text explicitly states "a certain number of unique powers of each level per day. THAT is plain as day, what you are suggesting is not even remotely close to what is both described and insinuated in the text.

[Defiant]

I've played many high level spellcasters and I've never used Contingency as a defense versus anti-magic field. So again, your opponent would need to know that is what you are going to play to have that back-up.

I've never used Contingency as a defense either, because usually I ban Evocation.

Doesn't mean I can't have Contingent Spells on me. Not to mention that this particular example, that of an anti-magic field, is easily thwarted by a shrunken hat (my usual defense).


No one in their right mind would consider using Anti-Magic Field. They would think, "Wow, I have a lot of spell buffs right now. I'm sure my opponent will do the same with spells and/or magic items. There's no way he would use Anti-Magic Field. That would make him virtually useless. No one would gimp themselves like that!"

In the context of the PvP scenario given, it's not clear that both will be spellcasters. Maybe you'll be facing a non-spellcaster. And what contingency more glaringly apparent than "hmm... I bet my opponent will want some sort of anti-magic field because he thinks it'll shut me down".

[FMArthur]

I don't think it's fair to call somebody a cheater that's playing by the rules. The text explicitly states "a certain number of unique powers of each level per day. THAT is plain as day, what you are suggesting is not even remotely close to what is both described and insinuated in the text.

So you play with Monks taking -4 nonproficiency penalties to unarmed attack rolls? Or do you ignore that because it doesn't make your character more powerful? Imagine a Fighter variant where they trade their first level bonus feat to gain half their Fighter level number of bonus feats every time they would gain bonus feats after that. Would you allow it in a game that includes normal Fighters? In most groups, your Erudite interpretation would get the variant flat-out banned, which neither you nor I would want. I personally like the class enough to allow its use in a sensible way.

[BeholderSlayer]

So you play with Monks taking -4 nonproficiency penalties to unarmed attack rolls? Or do you ignore that because it doesn't make your character more powerful? Imagine a Fighter variant where they trade their first level bonus feat to gain half their Fighter level number of bonus feats every time they would gain bonus feats after that. Would you allow it in a game that includes normal Fighters? In most groups, your Erudite interpretation would get the variant flat-out banned, which neither you nor I would want. I personally like the class enough to allow its use in a sensible way.

There's a big difference between stupid omissions and something that is actually written.

[FMArthur]

There's a big difference between stupid omissions and something that is actually written.

Do you allow Erudites in your game? What ruling do you use for them, if so?

One pedantic ruling makes the whole class a problem. Do you see nothing wrong with this?

[BeholderSlayer]

Do you allow Erudites in your game?

Yes. As written.

[FMArthur]

Yes. As written.

And you see no problems with allowing a class that outclasses a Psion in every way and is grossly more powerful than every Tier 1? Do your players actually use the class?

[BeholderSlayer]

And you see no problems with allowing a class that outclasses a Psion in every way and is grossly more powerful than every Tier 1? Do your players actually use the class?

It's a variant Psion, so it essentially replaces them, so no, no problem here.

Yes, it's been used. It has also been killed. D&D combat is a fast paced and lethal game. Make one wrong choice and you are dead.

[Kansaschaser]

What book is the Erudite from? I can't even find the class. Is it a base class or a prestige class?

[FMArthur]

It's a variant Psion. It's near the back of the Complete Psionic.

Beholder Slayer, I don't know what to tell you. 'Anything can be killed' as a blanket philosophy for game balance doesn't really account for the actual issues that come up when one player makes others feel like they don't have an effect on battles or walks all over a DM's prepared adventure / makes it difficult to challenge the group in ways that don't get everyone else killed for being in a party with him. Maybe balance isn't a concern in your campaigns because of an abnormally low or high optimization level. There's a blatantly, unintentionally overpowered class we're looking at that has, as its solution, a very obvious intended interpretation right there in the book.

I guess anyone can do what they want with that info, but I and my group enjoy a game more when it's fair. So has every other group I've gamed with, watched play, or otherwise had contact with. The only groups I've heard of that dislike fair play and balance have been through anecdotes centred around the group's disfunctionality.

[Halna LeGavilk]

Okay, a few things:

1. Thanks for all the great ideas, guys! I'll be reviewing this thread for a while, looking for ideas. There isn't a set date.
2. I established this thread to look for cheesy ideas. If you guys wanna argue about RAW that doesn't have to do with this, please take it outside this thread. That would be great appreciated. :smallbiggrin:

[Myth]

There are only two ways a level 20 duel (doubly true for gestalt 20) can go:

1. Rocket tag


Can you deal with Dire Tortouse + Nerveskitter + Celerity + Timestop

Yes: Who goes first?........................No: Go to 2.
Me: You win. Him: Go to 2.

2.You are now dead, do you have a contingency to make you not dead?

Yes: go back to 1. No: go to 3.


3. You are dead and you lose.

[FelixG]

There are only two ways a level 20 duel (doubly true for gestalt 20) can go:

1. Rocket tag


Can you deal with Dire Tortouse + Nerveskitter + Celerity + Timestop

Yes: Who goes first?........................No: Go to 2.
Me: You win. Him: Go to 2.

You are now dead, do you have a contingency to make you not dead?

Yes: go back to 1. No: go to 2.


2. You are dead and you lose.

This seems about right :D

[BeholderSlayer]

It's a variant Psion. It's near the back of the Complete Psionic.

Beholder Slayer, I don't know what to tell you. 'Anything can be killed' as a blanket philosophy for game balance doesn't really account for the actual issues that come up when one player makes others feel like they don't have an effect on battles or walks all over a DM's prepared adventure / makes it difficult to challenge the group in ways that don't get everyone else killed for being in a party with him. Maybe balance isn't a concern in your campaigns because of an abnormally low or high optimization level. There's a blatantly, unintentionally overpowered class we're looking at that has, as its solution, a very obvious intended interpretation right there in the book.

I guess anyone can do what they want with that info, but I and my group enjoy a game more when it's fair. So has every other group I've gamed with, watched play, or otherwise had contact with. The only groups I've heard of that dislike fair play and balance have been through anecdotes centred around the group's disfunctionality.

I don't have any of those problems. High optimization, hard mode campaigns.

[kestrel404]

And you see no problems with allowing a class that outclasses a Psion in every way and is grossly more powerful than every Tier 1? Do your players actually use the class?

The class, as-written, does not contain the spell to power variant, and is limited in the fact that you cannot prestige class out easily, meaning your stuck with lots of dead levels. As-written, the class is only slightly more powerful than a Psion (mid tier 2).

[BeholderSlayer]

The class, as-written, does not contain the spell to power variant, and is limited in the fact that you cannot prestige class out easily, meaning your stuck with lots of dead levels. As-written, the class is only slightly more powerful than a Psion (mid tier 2).

Truth. It's only when you bring in Spell-to-Power that it really breaks.

Or, even worse, liberal interpretations of Magic Mantle that allow for both StP shenanigans, and allow for application of metamagic to powers. Technically, I don't believe this one works by the RAW, personally, but some people might argue otherwise.

[Halna LeGavilk]

What book is Erudite from?

[olentu]

What book is Erudite from?

Complete psionic page 153 as I recall.

[Douglas]

I've DM'd for many years too. You can read it how you like, I suppose.

Nonmagical means nonmagical. I don't see how Detect Magic will work on a non-magical substance, but I guess causality doesn't matter sometimes.

It doesn't change the fact that AMF is a giant painted target of fail. Any spellcaster worth their salt will have a defense for it, and it makes your character weaker.
The substance is non-magical. The fact that it exists is magical, and since it has a duration its existence is continually maintained by magic.

Anyway, I suggest a Persistent Spell buff machine. Take one of the broken über-caster builds suggested here, making sure you have at least 2 levels of Incantatrix, and see how many of Team Solars' (see my sig) buffs you can cram into one level 20 gestalt character. Tack Extend Spell on to Persist for 48 hour durations and you'll double your buffing capacity - I actually did not make use of this trick for the Team Solars party, so you actually might be able to get all or almost all of the full buff list.

If you know the specific day of the fight in advance, get your two days worth of buffs up, then use that magic bedroll from Complete Mage (Heward's Fortified Bedroll? Something like that.) to refresh your spell slots and prepare a full battle load of non-buff or shorter duration spells.

[Halna LeGavilk]

Actually, douglas, Team Solar is one of my Optimization Heroes. One of my favorite things to read.

[Douglas]

Good, then you're familiar with it's power already. Despite the sheer ridiculous magnitude of the bonuses and numbers involved, though, what really amuses me about how that project ended up is all the immunities. Take any random attack method normally touted as a highly effective win button and there is a very high chance that it will just fail automatically with no roll. The only major vulnerabilities are Antimagic Field and Disjunction, and you should be able to come up with contingencies for those.

Assuming the two of you won't be allowed to see each others' builds, you might give your opponent some nasty surprises with those immunities.

Oh, one amusing trick I thought of once for dealing with AMF: walk up right next to it, then use Metamagic Effect to apply Sculpt Spell to it. Your spherical emanation is now a line with you at an end point, and it's probably not providing nearly as much protection as you wanted.:smallamused: Or maybe for an offensive trick cast your own AMF and make it a cone so you're not inside it but you can point it at your enemy.

[Halna LeGavilk]

I'm not sure how I can get that kind of power, even with Level 20 Gestalt. That's why I was going for Wiz//Druid/Planar Shepherd, but now I'm looking at Erudite//Druid/Planar Shepherd.

I mean, I seriously would like to have all of that, but I don't think I can achieve it with one character. I mean, I could certainly go around Mindraping things, but I'm not sure how people would take to that...

[Douglas]

I just checked the list, and I'm fairly sure two days worth of spell slots from a single character with 20//20 gestalt casting actually can cover the whole thing if you want to try copying my buff list. There are just two problems: how to get enough castings of Body Outside Body (you really don't have room for actual Wu Jen casting), and I think you need access to both the cleric and druid lists to get everything.

For the ideal solution, ask if your DM's interpretation of Planar Shepherd's upgraded Wild Shape (which categorically gives extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities) gives such things as a Solar's inherent spellcasting. If it does, pick an appropriate plane and wild shape into a Solar to gain casting as a cleric 20. This would have the downside, I think, of not being compatible with the classic 10-to-1 time ratio trick, but you'd have plenty of casting ability including Miracles to duplicate Body Outside Body - plus 1/day free Wish.

The other obvious answer has a bigger downside - go Archivist instead of Druid. This gets you SAD with the main stat matching Wizard and full access to all divine lists, but you'd get no Wild Shape and no Planar Shepherd.

[Halna LeGavilk]

Archivist gets only Arcane spells, right? Or do they get divine spells as well? I'm not really worried so much about sheer raw power- I can do that myself. I'm looking for huge versatility, as I don't know what he'll be throwing against me.

[Urpriest]

Archivist gets only Arcane spells, right? Or do they get divine spells as well? I'm not really worried so much about sheer raw power- I can do that myself. I'm looking for huge versatility, as I don't know what he'll be throwing against me.

Archivist is divine spells only.

[Douglas]

Archivist is, essentially, a divine wizard. The Archivist class spell list is "every divine spell in the game". That includes domain spells - ALL OF THEM. Cleric, Druid, Domains, Ranger, Paladin, you name it - if it's divine, Archivist can get it.

Does your DM allow custom skill boosting items? If he does, just buy an item of +large number to Spellcraft, then be a Changeling and take two levels of Recaster to solve the Body Outside Body problem. If he doesn't, getting Spellcraft high enough consistently for many spells might be difficult without Spellscale, and you can only have one race.

[NoldorForce]

Find some way to get access to Miracle. Doesn't matter much how - the spell can mimic just about anything you'll care about (especially in the buff department). It'll even do obscure stuff like Body Outside Body and Giant Size - they're both SL 7.
Get access to action points. Heroic Spirit is the obvious choice to give you three as a base value, though you only need one when you have Unfettered Heroism. Wand Surge is not necessary; the UA rules for them (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionpoints.htm)* already list Spell Recall as an option to be able to cast spells without expending them.
If you ever want to be able to use two action points in a round without permanently spending any**, grab Dragon Prophesier and Prophesy's Hero (both from Magic of Eberron). The gist is that in one round you use your free UH action point to enter a state of prophetic favor, then in the next round you expend that prophetic favor to gain an action point in addition to your free UH one.
One of your buffs should be Extended Power Leech (BoVD). It's one of the few spells whose power directly scales with duration, so make sure to crank out your CL.
Find a way to deal completely typeless damage. Sure, you could easily pitch out a barrage of (free) save-or-dies and/or deconstruct your opponent's immunities, but in a pinch it doesn't hurt. Moon Blade is a decent first choice; only problem is that it's SR: Yes.
Ask your DM how Leadership will be handled. If your cohort is also gestalt, there's little reason to take Druid levels when your cohort can (on top of Psion or Erudite levels for access to Fusion).
Alternately, True Mind Switch yourself with a Hagunemnon (ELH). Alter Form is hilariously broken in a player's hands.
Use DCFS. (You probably know this already, but I'm making sure. :smallsmile: )
Grab as many effects that deal backlash as possible. (When I say "backlash" I refer to things that have some negative effect on anyone who attacks you.) Many are not hard to resist with standard saving throws, but each additional save your opponent rolls is another opportunity for a natural 1.
Give your clones items (like Rings of Spell-Battle) that screw with your opponent's ability to attack. If you're not committing multiple felonies with the action economy you're not trying hard enough. :smallwink:
Get access to a bunch of psionic buffs. Some of them (Dispelling Buffer, Touchsight, Thicken Skin***) do things that spells don't.



*Both UA and Eberron mention action points, but there's very little rules conflict - if any - between them.
**Such as to make all your free spells Persistent without jumping through the hoops of Incantatrix or DMM.
***Thicken Skin grants an enhancement bonus to AC. Not what Bruce Cordell meant, but that's the text.

[Evil the Cat]

If were aiming for cheesy, why not use an extraordinary spell aim antimagic field on self, and have fun with your own buffs and either melee attacks or orb spells, depending on the opponent?

[RaveingRonin]

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868070/LoPs_Omniscificer

Then spend the last 15 levels on whatever you want. Cause it doesn't matter now, you've won.

I like this guy. He makes a good point. PunPun and the Omniscificer are about as Cheese tastic as you can get, then add Extra Cheese. Very good idea RaveingRonin! >_>

[Wings of Peace]

If you're taking the Druid/Planar Shepard for rp reason that's cool, but if you're taking it purely for the action economy abuse may I recommend an Ardent combined with the Mind Mage (http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/prc_mind_mage.htm) from Dragon Magazine. Affinity Field + Synchronicity looped on yourself and a Psi-Crystal will grant you infinite actions.

-For effectively free metamagic apply power points to the Compensation feature.

-For infinite spells per day apply power points to Focus of Discipline to make all of your spells take up a level 1 slot. Then proceed to cast Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer via Arcane Fusion. Then ramp their levels back up for no adjustment via Compensation!

-For infinite power points see Body Fuel/Strongheart Vest. If your DM feels this is not kosher spam spells into a self-targeted Dweomer of Transferrance instead.

[NoldorForce]

If you're taking the Druid/Planar Shepard for rp reason that's cool, but if you're taking it purely for the action economy abuse may I recommend an Ardent combined with the Mind Mage (http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/prc_mind_mage.htm) from Dragon Magazine. Affinity Field + Synchronicity looped on yourself and a Psi-Crystal will grant you infinite actions.This on its own will not get you infinite actions, but it will do so for your psicrystal. The thing about Synchronicity is that the action it grants functions like a readied action with some leeway on what the action is and when you can use it. And you can only effectively have one readied action at a time:
Initiative Consequences of Readying: ...If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again).What you can do, however, is to make a bunch of Soul Crystals (power's in Magic of Incarnum, and so insanely fun*) of Synchronicity and give them to your psicrystal. Then that little shard can do all the legwork of manifesting Synchronicity (which gets channeled through the Affinity Field) for you. While you only get one standard action at a time, you're not limited to using them all to manifest the next Synchronicity in sequence - only your psicrystal is.

*@ OP: If you can swing infinite (or effectively infinite) PP and enough XP to burn, go with Erudite. Soul Crystal will allow you to manifest powers irrespective of your Unique Powers Per Day limit.

[Wings of Peace]

This on its own will not get you infinite actions, but it will do so for your psicrystal. The thing about Synchronicity is that the action it grants functions like a readied action with some leeway on what the action is and when you can use it. And you can only effectively have one readied action at a time:What you can do, however, is to make a bunch of Soul Crystals (power's in Magic of Incarnum, and so insanely fun*) of Synchronicity and give them to your psicrystal. Then that little shard can do all the legwork of manifesting Synchronicity (which gets channeled through the Affinity Field) for you. While you only get one standard action at a time, you're not limited to using them all to manifest the next Synchronicity in sequence - only your psicrystal is.

*@ OP: If you can swing infinite (or effectively infinite) PP and enough XP to burn, go with Erudite. Soul Crystal will allow you to manifest powers irrespective of your Unique Powers Per Day limit.

I am not entirely understanding your logic, particularly why it grants my psicrystal infinite actions but not me. Even if I can only have one readied action at a time, the two Affinity Fields have not stopped looping Synchronicity back at each other. So once I use my readied action shouldn't the loop just feed me another one?

[NoldorForce]

I am not entirely understanding your logic, particularly why it grants my psicrystal infinite actions but not me. Even if I can only have one readied action at a time, the two Affinity Fields have not stopped looping Synchronicity back at each other. So once I use my readied action shouldn't the loop just feed me another one?Not quite; it'll feed you a second (third, fourth, etc.) at the exact same time as the first, negating one or the other. (If Affinity Field carried any sort of delay we wouldn't be dealing with a race condition like this!) So for a given manifestation of Synchronicity you still only get one standard action (despite the fact that you wanted two).

[Wings of Peace]

Not quite; it'll feed you a second (third, fourth, etc.) at the exact same time as the first, negating one or the other. (If Affinity Field carried any sort of delay we wouldn't be dealing with a race condition like this!) So for a given manifestation of Synchronicity you still only get one standard action (despite the fact that you wanted two).

That's an irrelevant point though. Whether the readied actions stack or not has no effect on if the Synchronicity loop will continue to manifest Synchronicity. At any given point in time your example is correct because of the way the actions overlap, meaning that at any particular time I only have one readied action (even though it is being infinitely replaced). However, after that point in time when I've spent the readied action my loop is still actively effecting me with Synchronicity thus granting me a new readied action (which is also being infinitely replaced).

[NoldorForce]

That's an irrelevant point though. Whether the readied actions stack or not has no effect on if the Synchronicity loop will continue to manifest Synchronicity. At any given point in time your example is correct because of the way the actions overlap, meaning that at any particular time I only have one readied action (even though it is being infinitely replaced). However, after that point in time when I've spent the readied action my loop is still actively effecting me with Synchronicity thus granting me a new readied action (which is also being infinitely replaced).Suppose that you spend that readied action to manifest Crystal Shard (pretty much anything other than Synchronicity, really). Where are you afterwards getting additional manifestations of Synchronicity from that weren't already invalidated by the race condition?

My point is that you're normally the only true source of Synchronicity effects on yourself; even splitting and looping them won't help if you can't engineer a delay because they're all resolved simultaneously and instantaneously by default.

[Wings of Peace]

Suppose that you spend that readied action to manifest Crystal Shard (pretty much anything other than Synchronicity, really). Where are you after wards getting additional manifestations of Synchronicity from that weren't already invalidated by the race condition?


What race condition? I don't understand what you are referring to here.



My point is that you're normally the only true source of Synchronicity effects on yourself; even splitting and looping them won't help if you can't engineer a delay because they're all resolved simultaneously and instantaneously by default.

This is not the case though. The Synchronicitys will keep resolving infinitely until the two Affinity Fields end.

The circumstance is this:

We have two Affinity Fields. We will call them X (for the one on the player) and Y (For the one on the Psicrystal).

-The player manifests Synchronicity on himself.
-Affinity Field X causes this to also effect the Psicrystal. This triggers Affinity Field Y.
-Affinity Field Y returns the Synchronicity effect back to the Player which triggers Affinity Field X.
-Ad Infinitum

This process won't stop until the Affinity Fields are either removed or separated. This is why they can't all be resolved simultaneously, because the process is still continuing. Instead of resolving instantaneously like you claim they just go back and forth an infinite amount of times per second. Since as you showed us earlier we can only have one readied action at a time however, the result is that we always have a single readied action (it's just being replaced at a rate of inf./sec).

[Kansaschaser]

This process won't stop until the Affinity Fields are either removed or separated. This is why they can't all be resolved simultaneously, because the process is still continuing. Instead of resolving instantaneously like you claim they just go back and forth an infinite amount of times per second. Since as you showed us earlier we can only have one readied action at a time however, the result is that we always have a single readied action (it's just being replaced at a rate of inf./sec).

Wow, so if someone were to give themself "infinity" actions without end, I would say they would age and die in an instant. They might not even die of natural age in that fraction of a second. They might die of thirst or hunger first.

I would say this would cause instant death to anyone stupid enough to try this effect in my campaign. It's like the first person to try to put an inside out bag of holding inside of a portable hole just to see what happens. KABOOM!

[Wings of Peace]

Wow, so if someone were to give themself "infinity" actions without end, I would say they would age and die in an instant. They might not even die of natural age in that fraction of a second. They might die of thirst or hunger first.

I would say this would cause instant death to anyone stupid enough to try this effect in my campaign. It's like the first person to try to put an inside out bag of holding inside of a portable hole just to see what happens. KABOOM!

What about a race like Elan or Warforged?

[NoldorForce]

The circumstance is this:

We have two Affinity Fields. We will call them X (for the one on the player) and Y (For the one on the Psicrystal).

-The player manifests Synchronicity on himself.
-Affinity Field X causes this to also effect the Psicrystal. This triggers Affinity Field Y.
-Affinity Field Y returns the Synchronicity effect back to the Player which triggers Affinity Field X.
-Ad Infinitum

This process won't stop until the Affinity Fields are either removed or separated. This is why they can't all be resolved simultaneously, because the process is still continuing. Instead of resolving instantaneously like you claim they just go back and forth an infinite amount of times per second. Since as you showed us earlier we can only have one readied action at a time however, the result is that we always have a single readied action (it's just being replaced at a rate of inf./sec)....and that bolded part is the houserule. (Not necessarily a bad one, but still a houserule.) An implicit rule in D&D, given how actions and turns are self-contained (ie, I can cast my spell at a discrete moment on my turn while you're effectively frozen even though we know that in "reality" everything's happening simultaneously and continuously), is that unless stated otherwise everything is instantly and precisely resolved at the moment of initiating whatever actions.

So the whole loop of Synchronicities through the Affinity Fields would produce a countably infinite succession of them. Sure, they're still infinite, but as long as they're all resolving at once there's no real issue - they all try to go off at once but given the wording on readied actions only the "last" does anything for you. Consider it like a computer program with exactly zero time required to run write operations. If you tell it to change a given value to 1 for some countably infinite number of times, when you check it a minute later that value will be 1!

Ultimately, infinite loops will cause D&D to crash (or throw exceptions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_handling)) whenever they come up; the best we can do is to properly handle them.

[Wings of Peace]

...and that bolded part is the houserule. (Not necessarily a bad one, but still a houserule.) An implicit rule in D&D, given how actions and turns are self-contained (ie, I can cast my spell at a discrete moment on my turn while you're effectively frozen even though we know that in "reality" everything's happening simultaneously and continuously), is that unless stated otherwise everything is instantly and precisely resolved at the moment of initiating whatever actions.

So the whole loop of Synchronicities through the Affinity Fields would produce a countably infinite succession of them. Sure, they're still infinite, but as long as they're all resolving at once there's no real issue - they all try to go off at once but given the wording on readied actions only the "last" does anything for you. Consider it like a computer program with exactly zero time required to run write operations. If you tell it to change a given value to 1 for some countably infinite number of times, when you check it a minute later that value will be 1!

Ultimately, infinite loops will cause D&D to crash (or throw exceptions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_handling)) whenever they come up; the best we can do is to properly handle them.

It's not a house rule, if x automatically produces y and y automatically produces x the two will continue to do this until the cycle is broken by some outside force (like the duration of one the Affinity Field's expiring). The fact that the rate of occurrence is infinite makes absolutely no difference because neither variable has the power to break the loop regardless of how many times they occur.

At this point however, I don't think there is much use in furthering the debate. We've both made our points clearly and any onlooking forum members have heard enough information from both of us to draw their own conclusions.