undead oriented campaign - giving a bard/rogue opportunities to be useful

[Keinnicht]

Hey, as you may have gathered from the title, I'm running an undead-oriented, kill-the-necromancer-and-his-hordes campaign. The party is nonexistent, just me DMing and a friend who expressed interest in playing D&D. She's playing a Bard/Rogue, and I'm having trouble with it.

Here's the issues in convenient list form:

1. I'm running a druid NPC to help balance out the party a bit. This was going fine at first, but I'm starting feel bad because her spells and combat abilities are fairly limited, whereas the NPC can blast people with lightning and turn into a wolf.

2. She rarely used her bardic music, both due to being fairly new, and because the tiny party means that she'd be more helpful just fighting, rather than taking a moment to use bardic music.

3. I suggested multiclassing to her, and she decided to become a bard/rogue.


Now then. The obvious way to make a rogue useful would be traps, but unfortunately, as a first level rogue, her disable device and search skills are still a bit lacking to find all but the most blatant traps. I suppose I can start putting a few simple traps around, barely hidden pits and whatnot. I also figured I'd suggest the Leadership feat to her, since a cohort would both add to the party and give her more of a reason to use Bardic Music. Any other ideas?

[WarrenZig]

Hrmm, first a rogue in a primarily undead campaign is at a big disadvantage since undead are immune to sneak attacks, that and the low skill checks will put her behind. Bards are not my thing btw.

Leadership would help if she could manage two chars at once, also the Requiem feat from Libris Mortis makes your bardic music work on undead so that would probably help a lot as well.

[HunterOfJello]

Solo Bard/Rogue. Okay, what level is the character currently at?

The Bard Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870498/The_Bards_Handbook) and Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233) are good starting points for improving/building the character.


If the character hits Rogue 3, then they definitely need to grab the Penetrating Strike alternate class feature from Dungeonscape. A better option against undead are Deathstrike Bracers which allow a rogue to sneak attack constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead for 1 round, three times per day. You could always make a custom item that does a constant effect of allowing sneak attacks on undead, but doesn't work against the other forbidden creature types.

~

Leadership may not be a good idea. The feat gives you an extra character at -2 level, but that character could turn out stronger than the original if built properly. You want the player's Rogue/Bard to be better, not to add in a lower level character that makes the Rogue/Bard look bad.

[Coidzor]

Well, there's an ACF that allows a bard to have their bardic music inflict penalties on the enemy and a feat for having their bardic music have an effect on undead.

Don't think mindless undead get effected by it, but you'd need to look at the relevant text.

Dragonfire inspiration and snowflake wardance. If you're not being sneaky, then you can just put the bardic music up before combats. with the druid, bard, and animal companion (and if there's that few characters, wild cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)/leadership would actually fit for adding in more warm bodies.)

And the character should be able to pump its disable device and search by as many skill points as an X level character can have, not as many skill ranks as a 1st level rogue could have.


Leadership may not be a good idea. The feat gives you an extra character at -2 level, but that character could turn out stronger than the original if built properly. You want the player's Rogue/Bard to be better, not to add in a lower level character that makes the Rogue/Bard look bad.

If that's a potential problem, then allow the Rogue/Bard to do a rebuild rather than having the character be a gimp alone with a single-classed DRUID.

[Keinnicht]

And the character should be able to pump its disable device and search by as many skill points as an X level character can have, not as many skill ranks as a 1st level rogue could have.



Why, exactly? She previously had no ranks in search or disable device, and upon taking her first level of rogue got the 8 skill points. Correct? I thought you only got 4x normal skill points AT FIRST LEVEL, not upon the first level of a class.

[Tvtyrant]

Convert it into Gestalt with her as a Bard/Rogue for sneak attack + music progression and even more skill points. For the damage thing I would have the undead be weak but numerous and give her wands she can UMD blast with. Then have bosses be weak against sneak attack by being half-undeads instead of true undead (creepier then real undead and she can do something). Finally kill of the Druid and have her ally be a turning Cleric instead; it can make lots of enemies worthless but isn't strong on its own. It just heals and turns essentially.

[Keld Denar]

You are correct. She would get 8+int skill points. The cap, however, for placing those skill points is 3+level, since those skills are now class skills. That means in 1-2 level, she could max them out. With a 14 int, she'd be putting 5 ranks per level in each of those two skills, filling them quickly up to normal max.

[Mastikator]

Use thug rogue variant from unearthed arcana, trading in sneak attack for fighter bonus feats. Beside that they're still skillmonkeys, rogues exist for more than just damage output anyway.

Bards also get illusion spells (function just fine on undead) and bard music can be used to buff party members.

Optimal? Perhaps not. Useful? sure.

[Sception]

A) Use the gestalt rules. They were made for undersized parties.

B) bardic music can be sung while the character fights normally. You don't have to stop fighting to perform bardic music.

C) house rules. Seriously, a one on one game with a new player does not have to be RAW. Just explain the changes you're making and why they make this particular campaign better so that she understands how things will be different in another game later.

as for the specific changes I reccomend:

1) Mind-affecting spells (including charms & sleeps) work on undead unless they're mindless. Ie, you can charm a vampire, though not a skeleton. Don't tell me they don't have minds to affect - if they didn't they'd be mindless. And don't tell me they don't sleep - vampires in particular explicitely sleep during the day, while most other undead are dormant during daylight hours.

2) Sneak attack works on undead. You get the skeleton off balance, and then strike a weak vertibrae, causing it to collapse to the floor. You chop off the zombie's head. You stab the vampire through the heart. Seriously, I don't know why undead were immune to sneak attack in the first place.

In a regular campaighn, where undead are an occassional threat that gives the party rogue an extra challenge, sure. But having a solo rogue fight against a campaign of undead is like letting a new player play a solo sorcerer in a game that takes place entirely in an antimagic field. You as the DM created this situation with your campaign design - it's better for you to fix it with some easy house rules then to make the player play a character she doesn't want to play to fit your game.


As for her character - Again, ghestalt for 1 on 1 games. You also might introduce her to the beguiler from PHBII. Unless she's particularly into the song or sneak attack aspects, the beguiler may provide the blend of stealth and enchantment in a single more coherent package, and free up the other half of the gestalt for something more practical for solo gaming. Either way.

[Thurbane]

If alllowed, the Song of the Dead feat (Dragon Magazine Compendium) allows mind affecting spells to target non-midless undead, as a +1 metamagic. Handy for a Bard in an undead heavy game.

[Chilingsworth]

If your bard uses an verbal performance technique (singing, poetry, etc.) then there is nothing stopping her from fighting while performing. She'd just loose the round she instigates bardic music. Generally, the best things for bard, imo:

Haste
Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium) gives +1 to inspire courage, always good.
Song of the Heart (Ebberon Campaign Setting) gives +1 to all numeric effects of bardic music, automatic and stacks with inspirational boost, best bard feat, imo.

for rogue, get her a ghost strike weapon (Magic Item Compendium) it's a +1 synergy ability with ghost touch, (for a +2 total) that allows crits and sneak attacks on undead.

Incidentally, the campaign I'm in now is undead-heavy. I play a bard, though one with sublime cord levels (that's another option, btw...) Even just using my bard abilities, I'm generally able to be useful, though I've also made disasterous mistakes.

[Escheton]

gestalt rogue//bardbarian?
Guitar-greataxe?

[Crossblade]

I had/have a solo game with my girlfriend. It's been on hiatus for the school year though. She started play being a draconic human bard which later multiclassed into dragon shaman; so I already know all the possible pitfalls you HAVE and could run into.

Biggest problem: design your campaign around your player. Sorry, but you failed here. Bard don't do well around undead, they do good in social settings and random skill challenges. They also get stronger the more people they have in their party when they play the buffer roll; however being the star, your PC isn't going to -if you excuse the lame pun- play 2nd fiddle.
A Bard is a Jack of All Trades, Master of None. Yes, they can fight, yes they can cast magic, yes they can do skill challenges... but they don't typically focus on it. It's like standing on thin ice. But in this case, the Bard is the ice and the Game is the person, you have to spread out <the challenges> or it will crash through <the player> and die.

Next problems in no particular order of importance:

DMPC: I agree, it can definitely be helpful, and in most cases new players want them in the game as well. It helps the feeling of playing WITH the DM instead of AGAINST the DM. However, you need to pick a class that doesn't overshadow the PC. Bard is Teir 3, Druid is Tier 1. Yes, optimization and especially use in playing is the ultimate determinate here though, as a Druid you could summon bears, while riding your bear companion and shape change into a bear.... and own ever fight, OR you could do the above, and step back, to guard/watch the PC, letting the PC feel like the Big God D*mn Hero, because she kicked bubblegum and chewed *ss.
Yes, your PC will definitely need a walk along Bandaid, yes Clerics are also Tier 1, here's what I did: I multi-classed my DMPC cleric into a fighter. A fighter with Monkey Grip. Do you know what he's good for? RP'ing (rp, not skill challenges), a few healing bursts between fights, and when we need a lot of damage in 1 round or else we'll likely TPK. Nothing more. (Blade of Blood is +3d6 if 5dmg taken + large greatsword of 3d6...which I just realize now that this whole time, we were doing 3d8 for the large greatsword, and I don't know how that typo was made!)

Rounded Party/Travelling NPCs: I did this. I sort of regret it, but my PC loves it. As per her request and story flow, I have added a few NPCs to join the party along the way, some have left over time, a few are staying permanently. So far, the stayers are a Dwarf Bard, Human Knight and a custom made Dragon, created by my PC's request, that fulfills a wizard roll. Basically, how the NPCs are controlled: During combat the PC gets to control them, during RP, I, the DM control them. However, I did not introduce any she could control until after about 2 months of playing, after she understood the rules.The dwarf buffs and adds support damage, the knight hasn't been in any real fights, but was planned to be a tank (both are in party for story, as dwarf is adopted father and knight is birth father) and the dragon is basically a new born "godling" (I just gave it like four X/day spells, some of the PC's choosing, others of mine. Surprisingly the ones I pick are combat oriented while her's tend to be more random and fluff flavored)

Continued Play: You have only 1 person in your target audience. You only have to fulfill their wishes. If your PC isn't enjoying herself, then you're failing. You will have to, from time to time, specifically ask - while not playing the game - what the PC likes and dislikes. People tend to be allusive with this, so boil it down to Yes/No questions for the most part. Do you like the challenges, do you like the story, do you like dealing with the LBEG/BBEG?
I actually got a NO with my LBEG that was a major reoccurring character, so I killed it off, I let my PC know this in advanced, which sort of ruined the surprise, but my PC was happy knowing that the annoying LBEG would be annoying her again.
What happens if your PC doesn't like your BBEG? Well, you can go a few directions: a new, "more powerful" enemy defeated him; some unlikely allies amassed an army and surprised attacked him and won to defeat him. With the new peace, you could go off and collect flowers/McGuffins, stop thugs, protect caravans, attend banquests, etc.. whatever the PC wants on the spur of the moment... or you can find out that the new army is politically ruled corruptly, or some other social interaction requiring a bard/rogue skill set. (With of course, lots of thug fighting, the type of which can be sneak attacked, and if your PC thinks of it, can be scared away if you turn into a bear)
Hrm, that got into a tangent about the point being, you need to ask the PC what needs to be changed regularly. Sorry.

Wealth By Level: does not exist. It does help with CR ratings, but typically new PCs don't care so long as they're winning. You only have the NPCs and DMPC for the PC to compare herself to. If she's better then typically, she'll be happy as the Queen of the Roost. She's a Rogue? You're DM, you can housefull undead are vulnerable to sneak attacks, no feats needed. She wants people to follow her? She can have people follow her without needing Leadership. Solo games should never have the PC using Leadership. The enemy can have it, it'll eat up a feat, no one will care, but the PC gets it for free.
Optional: Free Eschew Materials. Of course lots of games tend to have that regardless the number of players.
Optional, but I encourage: PC gets max hp/level. Dead solo PC = no more game. Pretty self explanatory.

Bardic Music: I made this mistake. It can be sustained as a free action or a move action. I can't find the written rule in 3.5 but I know Pathfinder specifically states which it is per level. Again, as stated by previous posters, you can House Rule it to affect Undead and Living alike. Heck, even stretch it to constructs as you/your PC desires.

ReBuilds: Allow them. First two are free. Tell the PC this. Afterward, tell the PC that you'll only let it go X amount of times "at most". But don't actually follow up on the counting unless the PC abuses it. Giving the X number should tell the PC that normal games don't typically do this, but she is new, so it is forgivable. Not following up on it, helps the PC enjoy her character as she wants it to be as she learns more about the game.
I told my PC she could change her character if she ever wanted to, but she didn't. No changes were done until just recently - while still on hiatus - as we converted [I haven't finished converting NPCs] to pathfinder. She changed from a 3.5 draconic human Bard/Dragon Shaman to a PF Ranger/ShadowDancer. Why? Likely because its more combat oriented and she realized that she wasn't using all the Bard's potential. (But she was very excited with what PF did with the bard class) Some change to ShadowDancer may also be because I spoke highly of its fluff as I'm a personal fan of the Rogue/Shadowdancer build; and her and I seem to have similar tastes in things (though not full, because she did pick PF Ranger)

Leveling Up: Ask her what she wants her character to be able to do. Let her pick what feats she wants, but you should also search for feats that let her do that also, your knowledge is greater than her's but its her character. Ex/ she wants to be able to fight, so she picks Power Attack, show her Snowflake Wardance, describe why Wardance is better to help increase her understanding of the game. Remember to be patient with descriptions, and if she wants to pick Power Attack let her... and if she changes her mind after, let her change the feat. (see rebuilds)

Hrm, that's a lot... I'll add more if needed, I guess.

[fireinakasha]

...

2) Sneak attack works on undead. You get the skeleton off balance, and then strike a weak vertibrae, causing it to collapse to the floor. You chop off the zombie's head. You stab the vampire through the heart. Seriously, I don't know why undead were immune to sneak attack in the first place.

...

In Pathfinder, fortification is the only way to be immune to sneak attack, and even then the best you can get is 75% fortification. One of the reasons I love PF: they don't make the key powers of any class entirely situational.

Also...


Biggest problem: design your campaign around your player.

This. Unless she requested an undead-centric campaign, in which case why not house rule it from the start?

[Keinnicht]

Good points. I chose a druid on the idea he could fulfill both the bandaid and tanking roles, although this seems to be an issue. I've already offered to let her change characters, but perhaps using the word "rebuild" would get a less adverse reaction. I've been letting her look through feats and skills, although I've been helping a lot, mostly in the "No, that feat is pretty much useless to you" category. Not like in the above Power Attack example, feats that are actually pretty much useless.

I've been explaining why they're useless, and what feats she might want to look into, explaining why, etc.

I also decided to give her a leg up in combat by leaving a +3 Wounding Rapier lying around a dragon's horde, plus I've been dropping a few minor AC boosters around, so she's got decent AC for a Bard. Her HP is still lacking a bit, though. I was thinking about homebrewing some kind of mystic theurge and eldritch knight style bard/rogue prestige class for her to enter.



In Pathfinder, fortification is the only way to be immune to sneak attack, and even then the best you can get is 75% fortification. One of the reasons I love PF: they don't make the key powers of any class entirely situational.

Ooo...Undead can't be sneak attacked because they have no vitals. But they do have important bits. How about sneak attacks just slicing off arms (causing them to lose attacks) legs (causing them to move slower) etc. if they do enough damage?

Or I might just give undead varying amounts of fortification, that could work to. Although I think "you slice the zombie's leg off, and it falls over" is more exciting than "You sneak attack it, lemme roll miss chance, okay, roll your sneak attack damage."


Also, I figured there'd be a few let-ups in the undead horde bashing that would be aimed at her. "Go get this artifact that will hugely help us win from this horrible trap-laden ancient dungeon of horrendous death," "Go convince the kings of other kingdoms that they should help us kill this guy."

Traps 'n' Socialization seem good.

[Sir Swindle89]

Steal a pathfinder rule and sneak attack the undead any way.

Also unintelegent undead can't disbelieve illusions. So low level Bard magic is really good.

[Keinnicht]

Steal a pathfinder rule and sneak attack the undead any way.

Also unintelegent undead can't disbelieve illusions. So low level Bard magic is really good.

I mentioned that to her. I actually found a solution, I explained Gestalt rules to her and offered. I had considered this previously, but thought it might make things overly complicated. I'm actually amazed at how simple it is. I always wanted to run a gestalt campaign, so I'm excited.

I explained to her the advantages of each combination, higher BAB vs. More spells vs. more special abilities and/or skills. She ended up becoming a gestalt Bard/Wizard, which is actually a nastier combination than I expected. Wizard with an average BAB, way more skills, a good reflex save, and being able to spontaneously cast spells, including cure spells.

I gestalted into Druid/Cleric, since it makes me a better band-aid, plus that way I wouldn't step on any toes. She wants to be combat-oriented, so I didn't want to turn into a super-tank by gestalting into ranger or fighter.