Power Attack multipliers...

[Tyger]

OK, so I've whipped up a Frenzied Berserker character (another thread had some awesome ideas), but want to make sure I am multiplying correctly.

The character has Improved Power Attack (from the FB class), Leap Attack and a Valorous Weapon.

Assuming the weapon is wielded two handed, and they take 20 from their BAB (yes, its a 20th level character) that would be 160 damage, right?

20 x 4 (for Improved Power Attack (3) and Valorous(+1)) then doubled for Leap Attack, per the Errata.

Or is it 20 x3 (Improved Attack) then X2 for Valorous then double for Leap??

A tad confusing.

[Keld Denar]

Valorous is a multiplier on net damage. Sum up all weapon and static damage and THEN multiply.

You basically sum at two different points. You get your total PA muliplier (only things that explicitly affect PA, like Leap Attack and Imp PA), then you add your weapon damage and +str damage and enhancement bonuses, and THEN you multiply that result for Valorous or Headlong Rush or any other crits.

[Sir Swindle89]

Due to the awsomeness of multiplication in D&D they stack but it's wierd.

x2= +100%
x3= +200%
x4= +300%

That is how all multipliers work in D&D to my knowlege.

I forget what all of those apply to. because some are to raw damage(valourous if i recall) and some are just to PA damage.

I think it would be x4 for improved+leap then x2 the total dammage from valorous.

[tyckspoon]

That is how all multipliers work in D&D to my knowlege.


Just the ones involving game terms and constructs, which is admittedly most of the really relevant multiplications in D&D. Multiplication dealing with real quantities functions as normal (that is, if you're figuring out the weight or volume or count of something, then 2x2 is 4 just like it's supposed to be.)

[Sir Swindle89]

Just the ones involving game terms and constructs, which is admittedly most of the really relevant multiplications in D&D. Multiplication dealing with real quantities functions as normal (that is, if you're figuring out the weight or volume or count of something, then 2x2 is 4 just like it's supposed to be.)

I am aware of that but it seemed... not worth the extra confusion. To explain it.

[Telonius]

Not 100% sure on this ... but Leap Attack's text says it adds +100% of the "normal" bonus damage from Power Attack. They specifically changed the wording from "double" (x2) to "+100%" in the errata. If you're just looking mathematically it's the same, but for adding multipliers it isn't.

One question would be, what counts as "normal" power attack damage? Is it 2 for 1, as it would be without the feat, or is it 3 for 1, as it would be for Improved Power Attack? Personally I would rule that "normal" means just that - normal power attack damage, unmodified by anything. So 2 for 1.

So, assuming you're wielding a 2h weapon, it would be: ([20*3(imp power attack)]+[20*2(leap attack)])*2(valorous)=200.

[kestrel404]

Not 100% sure on this ... but Leap Attack's text says it adds +100% of the "normal" bonus damage from Power Attack. They specifically changed the wording from "double" (x2) to "+100%" in the errata. If you're just looking mathematically it's the same, but for adding multipliers it isn't.

One question would be, what counts as "normal" power attack damage? Is it 2 for 1, as it would be without the feat, or is it 3 for 1, as it would be for Improved Power Attack? Personally I would rule that "normal" means just that - normal power attack damage, unmodified by anything. So 2 for 1.

So, assuming you're wielding a 2h weapon, it would be: ([20*3(imp power attack)]+[20*2(leap attack)])*2(valorous)=200.

Yep, that's what I get. Power attack damage increasers (improved PA and leap attack) stack for +5/point of PA, then Valorous doubles everything (including base weapon damage and other static boni) for a total of (+100+x)*2 or +200+2*x damage (where X is the non power attack damage).

[Sir Swindle89]

Not 100% sure on this ... but Leap Attack's text says it adds +100% of the "normal" bonus damage from Power Attack. They specifically changed the wording from "double" (x2) to "+100%" in the errata. If you're just looking mathematically it's the same, but for adding multipliers it isn't.

One question would be, what counts as "normal" power attack damage? Is it 2 for 1, as it would be without the feat, or is it 3 for 1, as it would be for Improved Power Attack? Personally I would rule that "normal" means just that - normal power attack damage, unmodified by anything. So 2 for 1.

So, assuming you're wielding a 2h weapon, it would be: ([20*3(imp power attack)]+[20*2(leap attack)])*2(valorous)=200.

My interpretation would be you get another 1 to 1 bonus to power attack damage. my real interpretation is thats dumb leave it a doubling, +100% is exactly how a doubling in D&D works any way.

[ericgrau]

In the back of the PHB it says x4x2=x5. You normally add the extras not multiply, unless leap attack makes an exception?

[Sir Swindle89]

In the back of the PHB it says x4x2=x5. You normally add the extras not multiply, unless leap attack makes an exception?

since they added clarifying errata it's kinda assumed that their is an exception to the usual rules.

theres basically 3 interpretations i can think of.

1) you add your base power attack value (the ammount you took off of your to-hit)

2) they clarified their own rule (no suprised)

3) you calculate your power attack damage then double it.

arranged by power level.

[JaronK]

First, check the erratas for both Leap Attack and Frenzied Berserker. They both add an additional 100% to the PA damage dealt. Thus, if you're using a two handed weapon (2 damage for every -1 to hit or AC, depending on if you're using Shock Trooper or not), you add an additional 2 damage twice, so you end up with 6 to 1 returns. This is pretty much the same as the usual "double double is a triple" math, since you've just doubled 2:1 twice and gotten 6.

So if you go the full amount at 20, you get +120 damage from power attack.

Now, you apply your total charge damage multipliers, like Valorous (consider also being an Orc for the Headlong Rush feat, an additional doubling to triple). Now your damage is (Weapon Damage + Str Damage + 120) X2.

JaronK

[Starbuck_II]

See if you can add Pathfinder, Furious Focus removes Power Attack penalty on 1st attack each round (Preqs Power attack and +1 bab).

But yeah, due to errata, Leap Attack got better.

[Coidzor]

Wow. It really is a good thing leap attack isn't compatible with mounted combat with its additional ways of multiplying damage dealt on a charge. :smalleek:

Edit: Wait, I think I might've just failed math forever by thinking that increasing the principal amount prior to multiplication would actually increase the final amount of damage dealt.

[ffone]

Doesn't the Leap Attack errata technically only apply to the sentence about one-handed weapons? IIRC the errata says "replace in the second sentence with..." or something, which is the one-handed sentence, but doesn't change the two-handed sentence at all.

When I DM, I tread the +100%s as doublings in any case - I figure, it's the same mathematical operation (in fact it's a better way of writing a DnD doubling) and nothing says it's exempt from DnD doubling rules. Lots of people will say "since it says +100% and not doubling, that rule doesn't apply", but let's face it, they'd reason the other way if it were more favorable to the PC.

It's an endless semantics debate. My suggestion is to treat it as a doubling to

1. avoid having some new category of operations for which Wizards gives no guidance on how it interacts with other things
2. it's an endless semantics debate
3. If you google around you can find a thread where Person_Man actually got a WotC rep to email him and say that 2-hand leap attack is supposed to be 1:3, even with the errata.
4. Let's face it, 2-handed ubercharging appears to be what everyone goes for, this makes it less out of whack with other styles (no, I don't care that "magic is so much more uber!" Even if that's true, solution which tells every meleer to do exactly the same thing - leap attack shock trooper - is soooo boring. And in my campaign groups, not how it falls out in practice anyway; the spellcasters don't outshine everyone else, for whatever reason, but the uberchargers would otherwise.)


Also, IMO Valorous should not 'double' the other doublings. Yes, it doubles a separate quantity (PA damage + other damage), but you're still breaking DnD doubling rules if you do it as x2x2=x4. Using the associative rule of arithmetic, you can just increase the PA multiplier and other-damage multipliers by 1 each.

Moreover I treat the 1:2 for two-handed itself as a doubling (probably not how most people do it). So for example

two handed PA 1:2
2HPA with leap attack 1:3
the above on a x2 crit: 1:4 (and usual doubling for the non-PA damage)
with Valorous: 1:5, and 1:3 for the non-PA damage

[kestrel404]

First, check the erratas for both Leap Attack and Frenzied Berserker. They both add an additional 100% to the PA damage dealt. Thus, if you're using a two handed weapon (2 damage for every -1 to hit or AC, depending on if you're using Shock Trooper or not), you add an additional 2 damage twice, so you end up with 6 to 1 returns. This is pretty much the same as the usual "double double is a triple" math, since you've just doubled 2:1 twice and gotten 6.

So if you go the full amount at 20, you get +120 damage from power attack.

Now, you apply your total charge damage multipliers, like Valorous (consider also being an Orc for the Headlong Rush feat, an additional doubling to triple). Now your damage is (Weapon Damage + Str Damage + 120) X2.

JaronK

Except the OP specified Improved power attack (the level 5 class feature, which is +50% PA). I'm sticking with the 5:1 bonus, then double all damage. If it was with the Greater Power attack (or whatever the level 10 feature is), then you're totally right.

[JaronK]

Ack, missed that. Yes, if it's only Improved then it's 5:1. It'll become 6:1 later.

Though a lot of this shows why Frenzied Berserker isn't as over the top as a lot of people thing. Mounted charging is generally better (without the whole kill your party issue), but you can't Frenzy while mounted (Die horsie!), nor can you leap attack while mounted. But Spirited Charge, Riding Boots, and Valorous Lances make charge damage a LOT higher.

JaronK

[tundrawalker1]

I have a related question regarding mounted charges. Let's say a PC has Power Attack and a BAB of +16, Leap Attack, Spirited Charge, a STR bonus of +16 and is using a +5 Lance with the Valourous Weapon enchantment. He does a mounted charge consisting of a jump for Leap Attack Purposes.

So again, Power Attack of 16, Leap Attack, Spirited Charge, STR of +16, Lance and Valourous Weapon.

Does it go like this:

1d8 for lance + 16(PA) x 3 (Leap Attack using lance 2 handed) +16 (STR) + 5 (Weapon Bonus) x3 (spirited charge) x 2 (Valourous Weapon) for a total of

4 + 48 + 16 = 68 +5 = 73 x 3 = 219 x 2 = 438 (or 1314 on a crit)?

Do the multipliers work like my example? Thanks for the info.

[JaronK]

As soon as he uses Leap Attack, he's not mounted anymore, right? So Spirited Charge no longer works.

JaronK

[tundrawalker1]

As soon as he uses Leap Attack, he's not mounted anymore, right? So Spirited Charge no longer works.

JaronK

You can't do a Leap Attack on the mount? A leap attack says if you combine a jump with a charge...
If the mount jumps, then are you not jumping and including it in a charge? :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

1d8 for lance + 16(PA) x 3 (Leap Attack using lance 2 handed) +16 (STR) + 5 (Weapon Bonus) x3 (spirited charge) x 2 (Valourous Weapon) for a total of

4 + 48 + 16 = 68 +5 = 73 x 3 = 219 x 2 = 438 (or 1314 on a crit)?

Do the multipliers work like my example? Thanks for the info.

No. x2 valorous and x3 spirited charge would combine into x4, and since lances have a x3 crit, damage is x4+(x3-1)= x6 on a crit with a valorous spirited charge. You subtract 1 from the multipliers you're adding to the base multiplier and then just add them together.

Unless crit multipliers interact differently, which I don't think they do.

Also, a +2 Valorous Keen Collision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#collision)Lance would be better and have the same value, but Collision is great if you're using multipliers as you can call it the "brute force through any DR," weapon property. Well, the the Keen part might not be better due to lances having a poor crit range anyway, but some thought for if you want to pursue that path.

[Keld Denar]

Technically, its the mount that is jumping, not you. It makes the jump check, not you.

[tundrawalker1]

Technically, its the mount that is jumping, not you. It makes the jump check, not you.

By that logic, you are not moving either, the mount is therefore you cannot charge on a mount, no?


No. x2 valorous and x3 spirited charge would combine into x4.

Doesn't that fly in the face of what has been discussed about the valorous enchantment being applied at the end?

[Keld Denar]

By that logic, you are not moving either, the mount is therefore you cannot charge on a mount, no?
Except that mounted charging is explicitly allowed. Mounted leap attacking isn't.


Doesn't that fly in the face of what has been discussed about the valorous enchantment being applied at the end?
And spirited charge is a multiplier that applies at the end just like valorous does. Since they are similar, they are combined.

[tundrawalker1]

And spirited charge is a multiplier that applies at the end just like valorous does. Since they are similar, they are combined.

Ah, I get it now. Thanks for that.


Except that mounted charging is explicitly allowed. Mounted leap attacking isn't.

Mounted leap attacking is explicitly not allowed? Where is that written? I am not arguing with you but I don't remember reading that.

[Safety Sword]

By that logic, you are not moving either...

It all depends on your frame of reference...

[JaronK]

Mounted leap attacking is explicitly not allowed? Where is that written? I am not arguing with you but I don't remember reading that.

He said "isn't" as in it's not explicitly allowed. That's different from explicitly not allowed.

IIRC there was an errata or FAQ that said you couldn't frenzy while mounted, but I don't remember if there was one for Leap Attack while mounted. Still, it's not you jumping.

JaronK

[absolmorph]

He said "isn't" as in it's not explicitly allowed. That's different from explicitly not allowed.

IIRC there was an errata or FAQ that said you couldn't frenzy while mounted, but I don't remember if there was one for Leap Attack while mounted. Still, it's not you jumping.

JaronK
What if you jump off the mount and land on it's back?

[tundrawalker1]

He said "isn't" as in it's not explicitly allowed. That's different from explicitly not allowed.

IIRC there was an errata or FAQ that said you couldn't frenzy while mounted, but I don't remember if there was one for Leap Attack while mounted. Still, it's not you jumping.

JaronK

I hear ya. It is either the mounts jump or your handle animal check. I get that. But you can have the mount leap as part of his move. A charge is a mount moving and if you can have a mount leap as part of a move, I don't see why you cannot have it leap. I get that it is not the PC jumping but if you can benefit from a mount charging, I see no reason why you cannot benefit from the leap attack feat on a mount if the mount is charging and leaping. It just seems a logical connection to me.

[JaronK]

The big issue here is that the feat constantly talks about "you" jumping, and only triggers if you cover at least 10 feet of movement with "your jump." That's not the mount's jump, generally. Charging has a specific rule that says you get to charge when your mount does, but jumping has no such rule.

JaronK

[Chambers]

Make the horse the Frenzied Berzerker... :smallsmile:

You get Mounted Charging, it gets Leap Attack. And then it tries to eat you.

[JaronK]

Make the horse the Frenzied Berzerker... :smallsmile:

You get Mounted Charging, it gets Leap Attack. And then it tries to eat you.

This is the only proper solution.

JaronK

[Safety Sword]

This is the only proper solution.

JaronK

Unless you count leap attack from the back of a charging horse?

[tundrawalker1]

Unless you count leap attack from the back of a charging horse?

That's my point. You count charging from the back of a horse so why not leap attack. If the mechanic is still there...moving 10' and a jump, then Leap Attack certainly could be seen to work.

[kestrel404]

If you jump off the horse, you are no longer charging on the back of the horse. Even if you land back on the horse after. Going any further with this will lead to many dead catgirls.

[Coidzor]

If you jump off the horse, you are no longer charging on the back of the horse. Even if you land back on the horse after. Going any further with this will lead to many dead catgirls.

Indeed, it does beg for pounce after all, and catfolk just don't deliver the right sort of pounce.

[2xMachina]

Now... using wording loopholes...

Leap attack says you need to jump 10 feet and land in a square in which you threaten the enemy.

A charge goes straight to the target.

So... you go like this



/\
T-----X

The T is the target, ---- is the mount path. You jump path is /\.
So, you move 10 feet on mount, 10 feet by jumping. You land on your charging mount too.

[J.Gellert]

Leap attack: You have to jump. Doesn't say anything about being mounted. I mean, since it is a big deal and all, wouldn't it say something? Even WotC wouldn't forget about it (maybe)! It already has errata, after all.

When you are mounted, "you" move when your mount moves, and "you" jump when your mount jumps. This means, "you" are both your character and your mount as far as movement is concerned, otherwise you would never be able to get across that 10-ft OMG RIVER OF LAVA!!!!! by jumping, either. Your mount would jump and you would be swiming in lava. Every time.

There is no loophole. Now of course, whether you choose to allow it or not is Rule 0. It's understandable if you don't think that's fair.

Also: I had forgotten about valorous weapons! Thank you very much :smallbiggrin:

[Foryn Gilnith]

When you are mounted, "you" move when your mount moves, and "you" jump when your mount jumps.
If your mount moves, then you move. If your mount jumps, a specific subset of movement, you still merely "move", you do not "jump".

Would a centaur or somesuch work? IIRC one race with mount-like legs could use Spirited Charge.