OOTS #764 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Zherog]

I always marvel at how expressive stick figure facial expressions can be...

[Whammydill]

Once again V's familiar is the only one with a clue it seems.

[Eldan]

This made me smile.

[Squark]

Oooh, I decided to check on the off chance, and sure enough, new comic!


I LOVE Haley and Elan's conversation. Beautiful facial expressions there, Giant.

[Betropper]

{scrubbed}

[Fayd]

Giant, what a wonderful juxtaposition of expressions and conversation.

Also, something bad/stupid is about to happen, isn't it?

[pedrosette]

Now, that's a bit of a cliffhanger. Did or did not Elan told Haley about Tyrinaria?

[Tundar]

Hahahaha, talking about failing a spot check. And talk about cake!

Btw, where did that bow of Haley's in panel 6 come from?

[Grogmir]

Love it! So many questions.

What conversation? Will V make the Bluff Check? Why did blackwing fly away on the third to last???

Tier Envy. :smallbiggrin:

And Haley and Elan - at the back while D says about hearing things twice. Very good.



(And dare I even dream at being?)

[Askenada]

Errr, why does Blackwing fly away with Elan and Haley in panel 6, but in 7 and 8 he's still there on V's shoulder?

[blackjack217]

the cake is a lie

[Ganurath]

I for one liked the lampshade hanging in Panel 4.

[dogfish44]

Errr, why does Blackwing fly away with Elan and Haley in panel 6, but in 7 and 8 he's still there on V's shoulder?

I think it only has a quick look at what they're doing - never shows it go further and leave the comic.

Thanks for putting this one up ^_^.

[Nu]

Heh, the part about "tier envy" made me chuckle.

[Asthix]

As if it is OUR fault for their picking a class not capable of doing everything!
Nice.

[Merellis]

That must be some cake. o:

Also enjoying the fact they're having such simple discussions, even with all three being rather different in personality and alignment. :3

[FoE]

I'm guessing that they're running off to the dungeons.

[Kaed]

I pretty much filled in what was being talked about mentally as I watched Haley and Elan. Not in so much words as topics.

Panel 1: Elan: Aaaah Haley my dad is EVIL D:

Panel 2: Elan: *starts tripping over his words and trying to explain*
Haley: Calm down Elan, what happened?

Panel 3: Elan: *starts explaining the start of the chat with his dad*

Panel 4: Elan: *mentions what happened to the freed slaves*

Panel 5: Elan: *mentions what happened to Ian and Tyranaria*

Panel 6: Haley: We're going to do something about this.

[Grendus]

Gotta love tier envy. The irony is, of course, that neither Durkon nor V play like a tier 1. V is a blaster wizard and Durkon is a healbot cleric, both tier 2-3 easily. Though I guess in a party with an unoptimized bard, a half-optimized rogue, a fairly optimized (but horribly underpowered) fighter, and a ranger "with a wisdom score normally reserved for lemmings", even being a blaster wizard puts you at the top of the food chain.

[ss49]

Cake? What cake?

[pkitty]

A well-timed comic. After Tarquin and Elean's fight and all of the drama that erupted, we need to take a strip just to catch our breath. The nice, homey conversation in the foreground takes care of that -- even while the serious, frantic conversation in the background prevents the storyline from losing too much tension. A simple strip by itself, but it's just the right note we need in the storyline right now.

[Mecharious]

Now about that cake...

[Porthos]

It really is shame that none of them can make a Listen Check worth a damn. :smallamused:

[Saph]

Great pacing. Drama last comic, then Haley's reaction . . . all with a silly conversation over the top of it. :smallbiggrin:

[HUMVEE Driver]

First of all, that's taking a page out of Thor's book!

Also, I wonder if in panel #5 he should have said 'worst'.

[Porthos]

:vaarsuvius: "As if it is OUR fault that they chose a class not capable of doing everything."

Aye. Everything, but apparently be aware of what is going on around you. :smalltongue:

[Mando Knight]

I like how we get only parts of the three foreground characters' conversation. Including the bits of meta-humor.

[Forum Explorer]

Just a brilliant comic.


So much good stuff in it. I wonder if those three will just be hanging out while Tarquin fights Haley.

Oh yeah I'm guessing that Tarquin fighting Haley is the next comic.

[Lycan 01]

I love Malak. Even if he's "evil" he's a likable guy. Lots of depth and personality... I'm surprised V didn't respond to the whole "special bond" thing with adoption. Though I guess we can assume that's where the conversation led... :smallconfused:

[homersolo]

I loved the snippets of conversation that we heard. Of course, when they talked about tier envy, I was thinking it was in reference to the tiers of the cake. Cake sounds really good right now.

[Hrairoo]

awesome! i find myself liking your filler as much as your dramatic plot twists, giant!

i am especially pleased that v's character has now reacquired some degree of normalcy. it feels like the old v is back! :smallbiggrin:

[Elite]

I believe that the final punch line deserves a "Whaa Whaa Whaaaa"

[iTookUrNick]

Tier envy :smallbiggrin: and pretty much the all conversation tidbits we hear are hilarious, mostly thanks to the juxtaposition of the one in the back. The Giant once again proves to the audience that his skills go beyond mere one liners. Go Giant! :smallsmile:

[Shale]

I love the comment about not listening to the same thing twice.

[Dinocarl]

I think they are headed to the gladiator pits to meet her dad, and join up with Roy and Belkar in the process.

But where is Mr Scruffy?

[Barstro]

Btw, where did that bow of Haley's in panel 6 come from?

Same place as Optimus Prime's trailer.

[Outsidelime]

Same place as Optimus Prime's trailer.

Haley's bow came from Cybertron?

~J

[TheMeMan]

I love Malak. Even if he's "evil" he's a likable guy. Lots of depth and personality... I'm surprised V didn't respond to the whole "special bond" thing with adoption. Though I guess we can assume that's where the conversation led... :smallconfused:

Well, technically have we ever seen Malak do anything evil? That said, he is definitely less evil than Tarquin. From what we've seen so far, he doesn't have much in the way of "evil plans", and is moreso just riding along. He also doesn't seem to care about doing evil things, really. Could be that he is of the mindset of "I've got better things to do than be evil". Which doesn't make him not evil, just not one to do a lot of evil things.

[Xondoure]

Yeee for your meal might I suggest the plot filler combo!

[JoeSkull]

Nice comic Giant,... now about that cake...

[Lord_Gareth]

Re: Malak

I'm willing to believe LN until I see evidence of actual evil. While he's complicit in Tarquin's crimes, we have no actual evidence of sadism or malevolence so far.

[DaedalusMkV]

Well, technically have we ever seen Malak do anything evil? That said, he is definitely less evil than Tarquin. From what we've seen so far, he doesn't have much in the way of "evil plans", and is moreso just riding along. He also doesn't seem to care about doing evil things, really. Could be that he is of the mindset of "I've got better things to do than be evil". Which doesn't make him not evil, just not one to do a lot of evil things.

Well, what do we know about Malack? He's the cleric of a Death god, strongly implied to be a Lawful Neutral "death comes for all eventually" type, he doesn't seem to be into Necromancy or the other "lulz evil" Cleric disciplines, he has no problem working in Tarquin's Evil Empire and he spends a lot of time dealing with religious matters.

So yeah, he's probably Lawful Evil because he's on board with Tarquin, but he seems like he doesn't really concern himself with the day-to-day running of Tarquin's operation. He's just along for the ride, enjoying the freedom and authority his position with Tarquin's team provides him and generally sticking to what interests him: magic and religion. I'd say that he's Lawful evil, with a strong tendency towards Lawful Neutral.

[notthephonz]

I love Malak. Even if he's "evil" he's a likable guy. Lots of depth and personality... I'm surprised V didn't respond to the whole "special bond" thing with adoption. Though I guess we can assume that's where the conversation led... :smallconfused:

I was surprised that V just let the "special bond" thing drop, too, although I suppose that not arguing about it goes along with the new "explosions can't solve everything" mentality.

Come to think of it, Familicide wouldn't affect an adopted family member, would it? That seems like a rather large loophole if the purpose of the spell is to prevent anyone from avenging your victim. Oh well, more evidence that V wasn't thinking clearly at the time, I suppose.

[Onyavar]

Woohoo!
OOTS update AND Pantomime! AND smalltalk. Best comically comic for a while. Man, I think they talked for hours now...

Btw: What exactly is "tier envy"? I was first thinking that the topic was commoners vs. adventurers, where commoners (NPC classes) are complaining that they don't achieve higher social tiers/layers.
How off am I?

[Psyren]

I think our very own JaronK got a personal shout-out from the Giant himself.

...And that is awesome.

[Gnome Alone]

I'm inclined to think that V either piped up about how you can still have a special bond with adopted children, or declined to state anything because he/she doesn't have biological kids and couldn't really vouch for it being the same feeling, or simply let it drop because V's still a rather private person.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Just what I needed, a comic to relax myself after a stressful day of test.

Thanks Giant.

Loved everything, specially the discussion about Tiers, it is nice that such a good system is mentioned in comic.

Plus I agree that it is incredible how the giant can make stick figures so expressive.

[Morph Bark]

Panel 4 made me smile. And the greater occurrence of high expressiveness in the characters' faces was quite good.

[Agi Hammerthief]

where did that bow of Haley's in panel 6 come from?one of several portable holes?
_________________

cool comic,
Elan and Haley's conversation totally not needed

[Draconi Redfir]

i just liked watching three casters all get along together :smallbiggrin:

[rewinn]

Not sure we wanna know what that cake's made of.

Flumpf layer cake ... or something that gives new meaning to "angel food"?

[Scutilla]

It must stink being a non-humanoid in a mostly-human organization. I doubt cake is part of Malack's "special diet", and a whole cake would barely be a light snack for the Empress. I mean, the whole parade WAS for Elan, but still. A disadvantage of being an equal-opportunity empire, I suppose.

[KillItWithFire]

THE CAKE IS A LIE!!!
business-wise: It's nice to see Malacks soft side, and to see that he seems to get along well with V as well. It will be intersting to see what he does once it starts comming to conflict.


Btw: What exactly is "tier envy"? I was first thinking that the topic was commoners vs. adventurers, where commoners (NPC classes) are complaining that they don't achieve higher social tiers/layers.
How off am I?


Some of the D&D classes are grouped into tiers depending on how versitile they are. I don't know the tiers off-hand as I don't believe in the system myself, but wizzys and clerics are at the top as due to their magics they are easily the most resoruceful classes, able to perform a lot of different tasks.

[Elfey]

I love Malak. Even if he's "evil" he's a likable guy. Lots of depth and personality... I'm surprised V didn't respond to the whole "special bond" thing with adoption. Though I guess we can assume that's where the conversation led... :smallconfused:

I gotta agree, perfect place for V to show some warmth and emotion regarding V's adopted children. The Cabal is so wonderfully complex as well. Malak I think has to be at least leaning evil, and might be Tarquinesque in how he views himself as neutral. But Malak has such a mature and interesting out look.

[Sannom]

Also enjoying the fact they're having such simple discussions, even with all three being rather different in personality and alignment. :3

Still not sure about Malack. Being Lawful Neutral wouldn't put him at odd with Tarquin if his own goals are served in the mean time (I still think that he has a real interest into seeing the Western Continent united with less wars, unlike Tarquin he seems to be a local).


I love Malak. Even if he's "evil" he's a likable guy. Lots of depth and personality... I'm surprised V didn't respond to the whole "special bond" thing with adoption. Though I guess we can assume that's where the conversation led... :smallconfused:

I wonder what kind of links do Malack have with the mother of his children? Love or something else?


Re: Malak

I'm willing to believe LN until I see evidence of actual evil. While he's complicit in Tarquin's crimes, we have no actual evidence of sadism or malevolence so far.

Same here. He seems really interested into a solid government and doesn't fall to petty evil like Tarquin does.

[Blaznak]

There TOTALLY needs to be a "Dubbed" version of this where we hear what Elan and Haley are (not really) saying. I think that would be funny to read. You would not want to modify the strip, obviously, but just a silly script of what you think they would be saying.

And what about that cake...

LATER!

[Hydro]

I enjoyed this.

[KillItWithFire]

Just sort of noticing now, in panel 6 Blackwing seems to notice Haley and Elan leave. I wonder if he just didn't feel it important enough to mention to V.

[TheMeMan]

Still not sure about Malack. Being Lawful Neutral wouldn't put him at odd with Tarquin if his own goals are served in the mean time (I still think that he has a real interest into seeing the Western Continent united with less wars, unlike Tarquin he seems to be a local).
.

I tend to agree. It appears that Malak does not go out of his way to cause harm to others, nor even uses it as a means to an end. The fact that his is complicit with Tarquin doesn't necessarily mean he is evil. Remember that his god(as stated above) is one of death, and that death happens to all kind of points to this. He accepts the fact that people must die and will die for, but he neither perpetrates nor does he kill "who he must" for the system to rise. Instead he merely accepts it as a reality of the situation, nothing more and nothing less. Now, with the current information, I would place him in the LN camp, however the possibility is still very open towards him being LE. There just isn't any information as of current which could provide a definitive answer. So when in doubt, LN.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Thanks Giant! :smallsmile:

Regarding Blackwing, I think he just turns around and watches what Haley and Elan are doing.

[Psyren]

Hahahaha, talking about failing a spot check. And talk about cake!

Btw, where did that bow of Haley's in panel 6 come from?

Bowspace (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace)
Victoria's Secret Compartment (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitleba4e2b2g?from=Main.VictoriasSecretCompartmen t)


I love Malak. Even if he's "evil" he's a likable guy. Lots of depth and personality... I'm surprised V didn't respond to the whole "special bond" thing with adoption. Though I guess we can assume that's where the conversation led... :smallconfused:

Why would he respond? He can't be viewing his own bond with his children particularly highly at the moment.

[Lira]

An update on my birthday! I'm happy now. :D

Great comic. I loved the conversation.

[Mr. Snuggles]

I love the robe discussion. Clothing styles for mages, heh, heh. It's nifty how you can tell class in the strip by the character clothes.

Hey wait, Malack is a cleric! Why's he wearing robes instead of armor? He obviously has a very low CON (my guess: 3-5) but his STR doesn't seem to be any less than normal.

Varsuvius "learning how careful management of resources is more effective than brute force" is the total opposite of Xykon.

And yeah, typo, "the worst part is jealousy."

It must stink being a non-humanoid in a mostly-human organization. I doubt cake is part of Malack's "special diet", and a whole cake would barely be a light snack for the Empress.
Malack has a special diet due to his near-death CON, not the fact that he's a lizardman.

The cake must be evil food, too.

Malack: "Cake or death?"
Varsuvius: "Cake please."
Blackwing: "Cake for me, too, please."
Durkon: "Uh, death, please. No, cake! Cake! Cake, sorry. Sorry..."
Malack: "Well, we're out of cake! We didn't expect such a rush. So what do you want?"
Durkon: "My choice is 'or death’, then?"

[This Troper]

Loved it. Panel 7 is interesting...

[faustin]

Since the previous strip, I knew Elan would run to weep in Haley´s lap. The question is, what is Haley going to do? She must know from Elan description that Tarquin is a very capable fighter (not to mention his guards and the Empress around), so would be wise to ask V to send a message to Roy and reunite the Order instead a suicidal confrontation. Maybe she is too angry after the revelation about Tyrania and his father and want to pierce T´s butt so hard by herself.

[Hydro]

Other than the fact that he is working with Tarquin (and the rest of Tarquin's old party), have we really seen Malak taking any sort of morally-weighty actions?

The only thing we really know about him is that he gets along well with Tarquin and also that he is quite pleasant company. In terms of what he's capable of and what drives him I wouldn't really assume anything about him at this point.

[fibonacciseries]

boy who cried wolf much for Elan and Haley's disappearance?
after you sneak away and make out once or twice, your absence will never be thought to be significant again.
that said, i loved both the background facial expressions and the gratuitous lampshading.
does anyone else think that Elan and Haley were running straight to the prison?
just what we needed--not epic, but funny
the Giant really is a genius

[Mr. Snuggles]

Other than the fact that he is working with Tarquin (and the rest of Tarquin's old party), have we really seen Malak taking any sort of morally-weighty actions?
He tried to feed two victims of mistaken identity to a red dragon. The only thing that stopped him was Tarquin giving his word the prisoners would not be harmed.

[Aquillion]

Gotta love tier envy. The irony is, of course, that neither Durkon nor V play like a tier 1. V is a blaster wizard and Durkon is a healbot cleric, both tier 2-3 easily. Though I guess in a party with an unoptimized bard, a half-optimized rogue, a fairly optimized (but horribly underpowered) fighter, and a ranger "with a wisdom score normally reserved for lemmings", even being a blaster wizard puts you at the top of the food chain.It's reasonable to assume that Durkon avoids overshadowing the others deliberately -- notice how whenever the group is really in trouble, he pulls out Thor's Might. He does know what his most effective stuff is, he just chooses not to use it most of the time. (The first time he uses it, the extreme to which he overshadows Belkar is even lampshaded.)

[Querzis]

Hey wait, Malack is a cleric! Why's he wearing robes instead of armor? He obviously has a very low CON (my guess: 3-5) but his STR doesn't seem to be any less than normal.[/INDENT]

Technically, it should. I know D&D rules would allow a character with 5 CON and 14 STR but I woudnt allow it in my games. Its just impossible to be strong with such a poor constitution, not just because you dont train much since you get tired easely but also because having muscles strong enough to lift an armor doesnt mean anything if your bones and your endurance dont allow you to wear it for more then ten seconds before you fall down.

[Lemur Bear]

"No shortage of orphans"
classic

[AtwasAwamps]

Hey wait, Malack is a cleric! Why's he wearing robes instead of armor? He obviously has a very low CON (my guess: 3-5) but his STR doesn't seem to be any less than normal.


Cloistered.

For some reason, today's comic is my favorite. Just, absolute favorite.

[Ender Wigin]

In the last three pannels I thought that Blackwing had left and vaarsuvius was going to forget about her/her/its familir again. Good thing I saw him on her/his/its shoulder at the end.

[RoninAngel]

Cake is yummy! It's the chocolate frosted part of any tyrannical dictatorship! :smallsmile:

[Bruendor_Cavescout]

Panel 1:

:elan: Haley! You were right all along!

Panel 2:

:haley: Most women go their whole lives waiting for their men to say that to them. What am I right about?

:elan: My dad is evil!

Panel 3:

:elan: He put my name in lights, just like you said - but the lights were made of escaped slaves!

Panel 4:

:haley: Dammit! V and I worked hard to get those slaves freed. I can't wait to give him a piece of my mind - via my arrows.

:elan: Wow, you're already into anger? I thought you'd be surprised first, and I'd have to tell you the Empire of Blood used to be Tyrinaria to work you into a indignant rage.

Panel 5:

:haley: It used to be WHAT?

:elan: Aw, man, now I'm heading backwards! Now what do we do?

[Toper]

Hee hee. "Surely your political climate produces no shortage of orphans." This comic rocks.

I love that all the characters here have lives and opinions like ordinary people, not just adventurers. And the creativity, pacing, and layout of the strip is excellent -- the background doesn't jump out right away, and then when it does, it's totally clear from the expressions what Haley and Elan are saying at every point. Well done!

[Griever3216]

Quite the entertaining strip. I enjoyed the humorous mood. What V said about brute force also caught my interest. It'll be ironic if he ends up teaching the guy who has been preaching about brute force quite differently.

[Tulio d Bard]

I'm sure the cake is very important! :smallbiggrin:

[Hydro]

He tried to feed two victims of mistaken identity to a red dragon. The only thing that stopped him was Tarquin giving his word the prisoners would not be harmed.

Quite true sir (by "gets along with Tarquin", I guess I meant to say "Gets along with Tarquin and is complicit in the whole charade of misery and carnage which Tarquin calls a "government"").

Within those givens, though, there's still a fairly wide range in terms of what could be driving him and what he might be capable of (I was mainly responding to those suggesting that he was LN-ish or even "Altruistic Evil". He could be, but he could also be straight-up vile BBEG material who just happens to be pleasant company).

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!



The cake must be evil food, too.

Malack: "Cake or death?"
Varsuvius: "Cake please."
Blackwing: "Cake for me, too, please."
Durkon: "Uh, death, please. No, cake! Cake! Cake, sorry. Sorry..."
Malack: "Well, we're out of cake! We didn't expect such a rush. So what do you want?"
Durkon: "My choice is 'or death’, then?"

Durkon: "I'll have the chicken then."
Malack: "Very well. You! Cake or death."
Tarquin: "I ordered the vegetarian."

Someone make a 'Caption Comic 764' thread so we can write our own captions for Elan and Haley. I expect hilarity from this bunch.

[Orzel]

*puts on bookie hat*

Ok the odds are 10:1 they don't get the cake.

Any takers.

[The_Firenail]

*puts on bookie hat*

Ok the odds are 10:1 they don't get the cake.

Any takers.

I'll take 500 points on that action.

...

Pie for everybody!...or cake.

[cho_j]

That must be some cake. o:

Also enjoying the fact they're having such simple discussions, even with all three being rather different in personality and alignment. :3

Yes! That was my favorite part! It made it feel very, very real. Because everything in a work of fiction is meant to be entertaining, you very rarely see a normal conversation between three characters who met and get along decently (or in Durkon and Malack's case, rather well) about nothing plot related, nothing dramatic. Just people. Talking.

The contrast between that and Elan and Haley's emotionally charged, plotriffic conversation in the background MADE this strip. :D

And Haley's angry expression is one of my favorites in the whole series.

[TheMeMan]

Quite true sir (by "gets along with Tarquin", I guess I meant to say "Gets along with Tarquin and is complicit in the whole charade of misery and carnage which Tarquin calls a "government"").

Within those givens, though, there's still a fairly wide range in terms of what could be driving him and what he might be capable of (I was mainly responding to those suggesting that he was LN-ish or even "Altruistic Evil". He could be, but he could also be straight-up vile BBEG material who just happens to be pleasant company).

I'm not sure he would be vile-Evil from what his role has been shown so far. He may be capable of rather discable acts, however he does seem to be of the mind of "I've got better things to do right now". Could be wrong though, just the mindset I get from the character both from his interaction with others, and what he does. He just doesn't seem to care about being evil, or even doing evil things. Or having any actual evil plans.

[Ted The Bug]

Wait...wouldn't the last panel give away to Malack that Durkon knew Elan beforehand?

[GeekDaddy]

Outstanding. Great job with banter. I think a strong bond of friendship is blooming here - which will only break D's heart in a Hilga-esque kind of way (a failed (lizard)man-crush, as it were).

Best. Plot. Recap. EVER!

[JSSheridan]

Wait...wouldn't the last panel give away to Malack that Durkon knew Elan beforehand?

V and Blackwing.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I love the differing conversations. Thanks, Giant! :smallbiggrin:

[Fabuloso]

I know D&D rules would allow a character with 5 CON and 14 STR but I woudnt allow it in my games. Its just impossible to be strong with such a poor constitution, not just because you dont train much since you get tired easely but also because having muscles strong enough to lift an armor doesnt mean anything if your bones and your endurance dont allow you to wear it for more then ten seconds before you fall down.

I had a classmate in high school that was a bodybuilder. He once FAINTED after contracting his muscles while posing for a photo. Steroids do that very often.

Chemistry apart, it's actually possible for a frail person to train to the point where his muscles are capable of efforts his bones and/or joints cannot sustain. It requires training of the stupid kind of stupid (both in quantity and in quality), but is indeed possible.

Also, ostheoporosis and other chronic illnesses can cause low RL constitution while having above-average strenght - you just CAN'T show that strenght because you would hurt yourself, but it is indeed there.

Anyway, CON score in dnd world means a lot of things, not only frailty. An individual with an heart condition would have a poor CON while being otherwise quite sturdy, for example. On the other hand, STR is not how much mucles you have got, but also how capable you are of using them, and this is true IRL, too (I for example am an acrobat, and I'm nowhere quite as buff or muscular as my employees friends who go body building. But they can't hold their weight on their hands, while I can with very little effort).

To sum it up: I think there's a reason why STR and CON scores are separate, and while I agree that a very sub-par CON should prevent you to do some great acts of strenght, it shouldn't prevent you from possessing that strenght in the first place. A very frail person can still pack quite a punch, he will just have more shattered bones in his fist afterwards :)

[Nimrod's Son]

In the panel where Blackwing takes off, he doesn't have any eyes.

[hamishspence]

That can be accounted for with "he's looking the other way"

Just as both eyes are seen, yet his beak is sticking out to the left, when he's sitting on V's shoulder, both eyes are invisible, when he's in the air, beak sticking out to the right, and he's looking at Elan & Haley.

[lordyoshi01]

Good to see V has a healthy interest in cake.

[hamishspence]

I'm not sure he would be vile-Evil from what his role has been shown so far. He may be capable of rather discable acts, however he does seem to be of the mind of "I've got better things to do right now". Could be wrong though, just the mindset I get from the character both from his interaction with others, and what he does. He just doesn't seem to care about being evil, or even doing evil things. Or having any actual evil plans.

Being "vile-Evil" and "Altruistic Evil" simultaneously is possible- but very unlikely. You'd have to have a force willing to grant Vile Feats (which are supernatural, and can be revoked) to an out-and-out altruist.

Malack appears to find displays of brute force distasteful, true.

He might be a "punch clock villain" who goes along with Tarquin's plans simply because he can't be bothered to summon up any disapproval, and he's loyal to his friend first, but not interested in other people not close to him.

[Nimrod's Son]

That can be accounted for with "he's looking the other way"

Just as both eyes are seen, yet his beak is sticking out to the left, when he's sitting on V's shoulder, both eyes are invisible, when he's in the air, beak sticking out to the right, and he's looking at Elan & Haley.
Yeah, I suppose that's possible. Rich has been using perspective to a greater extent recently, after all.

[Deatheater]

Technically, it should. I know D&D rules would allow a character with 5 CON and 14 STR but I woudnt allow it in my games. Its just impossible to be strong with such a poor constitution, not just because you dont train much since you get tired easely but also because having muscles strong enough to lift an armor doesnt mean anything if your bones and your endurance dont allow you to wear it for more then ten seconds before you fall down.


Good reasoning and I do something similar in my games. I'm one of those weird physically fit geeks--weightlifting/SCA fighting/running--and I will impose reality based rule interpretations if they support common sense.

BUT: low constitution can also be interpreted as genetic/congenital problems--heart murmurs, diabetes, etc. A friend of mine's husband dropped dead of a heart attack in his mid 30's--and he was a burly fit SCA fighter. Many uber buff but badly trained "wrestlers" have in game terms have low CON because they don't do any aerobic training.

So, whilst respecting your house ruling, I think it is possible for a CON5, STR14 combination on "real life " terms--just give them a wee heart murmur or a disposition to brain aneurysms. ;-)

[Ridureyu]

I'm kind of hoping that they do something so rash and violent that it completely ruins their cause. Like, I dunno, assassinating Tarquin in a painful manner right in front of his court, so that the repercussions DESTROY whatever peace and prosperity there was, and only make things worse.

[The Pilgrim]

There goes Haley, to rescue her Father.

[scienceguy8]

I'm gonna bet that the next few strips play right into Tarquin's "evil wins a good 20 to 30 years of luxury" speech. They are going to rush right in there, Elan is going to take a frying pan to the face or something, and then they escape with Roy, Belkar, and Haley's father and extended family member in tow, with Elan vowing to avenge his scarred pancreas or similar.

[Felixc-91]

beautiful, proof that this world of his functions like an actual world. just because the drama's on upstairs doesn't mean every one else just dropped of the face of the map! excellent, a good reprieve.

[otakuryoga]

:durkon: and :vaarsuvius: one so wise, one so smart, both completely clueless....... :smallamused:

[Felixc-91]

Good reasoning and I do something similar in my games. I'm one of those weird physically fit geeks--weightlifting/SCA fighting/running--and I will impose reality based rule interpretations if they support common sense.

BUT: low constitution can also be interpreted as genetic/congenital problems--heart murmurs, diabetes, etc. A friend of mine's husband dropped dead of a heart attack in his mid 30's--and he was a burly fit SCA fighter. Many uber buff but badly trained "wrestlers" have in game terms have low CON because they don't do any aerobic training.

So, whilst respecting your house ruling, I think it is possible for a CON5, STR14 combination on "real life " terms--just give them a wee heart murmur or a disposition to brain aneurysms. ;-) there is also the weird thing of someone having such massively different related ability scores. assuming Malak's scores are due to aging and he is venerable, that would have put him in his prime at 11 CON and 20 STR (given the example above). what kind of cleric invests so heavily in strength and ignores his CON? oh, and manages to live to the venerable age category. it makes little sense from several angles.

[Crystalline]

God I love this comic sooo much.

V is by far my favorite character but this has made me love Durkon and Malack a bit more.

The hemline was very funny. So was the cake. But we all know it is a lie. Oh well.

[Deatheater]

there is also the weird thing of someone having such massively different related ability scores. assuming Malak's scores are due to aging and he is venerable, that would have put him in his prime at 11 CON and 20 STR (given the example above). what kind of cleric invests so heavily in strength and ignores his CON? oh, and manages to live to the venerable age category. it makes little sense from several angles.

Admittedly that aspect is a bit unlikely...

[Gift Jeraff]

I don't know why, but this strip made me love Malack and Blackwing more. :smallcool:

Regarding Malack's alignment: It's hard to tell. As far as we know he sacrifices babies to keep himself alive, or he sacrifices his own health to keep babies alive.

I personally wouldn't consider wanting to feed who he thought was Nale & co. to the Empress that evil. However, he gets huge Evil points simply for associating with Tarquin. Even if he is being threatened somehow to stick with Tarquin and pals, he is still willingly letting (and [in]directly causing by helping with the scheme) atrocities happen daily (even if he disagrees 100% with said atrocities).

So I'm betting on Lawful Evil with good chance of becoming Lawful Neutral for now.

[CelestialMagpie]

As a huge fan of small talk, this comic made me smile - see? :smallbiggrin:

Still, I worry that Malack is in on the ruse, and fully intends on sabotaging D and V somehow. At some point, the fact that Blackwing witnessed the entire exchange will also come to light.

[Acero]

But V, the cake is a lie..... (sorry, I had to)

[Tobimaro]

:durkon: and :vaarsuvius: one so wise, one so smart, both completely clueless....... :smallamused:

It's just that Spot is not a class skill for mages or clerics.

My favorite line is in panel one, where V admits that careful management of resources is now more important than brute force. A different view than V expressed earlier when the solution was more arcane spell power. A nice bit of growth for V. :smallsmile:

[Mordokai]

there is also the weird thing of someone having such massively different related ability scores. assuming Malak's scores are due to aging and he is venerable, that would have put him in his prime at 11 CON and 20 STR (given the example above). what kind of cleric invests so heavily in strength and ignores his CON? oh, and manages to live to the venerable age category. it makes little sense from several angles.

No it doesn't. CON is wastly overestimated, especially as far as clerics go. He can heal himself, lesser restorate himself and all other kind of things. STR, on the other hand, is important for melee attacks, carrying capacity and dishing out as much damage as possible. A cleric can do better by investing heavily in STR, rather than in CON. Not saying it's so happening in Malak's case, but it's something that bears mentioning.

[GreenMuffin]

CAKE!!! Do I dare wonder what kind?

[suszterpatt]

New comic is up.You just never give up playing with the narrative style, do you?

Keep being awesome. :D

[Felixc-91]

No it doesn't. CON is vastly overestimated, especially as far as clerics go. He can heal himself, lesser restorate himself and all other kind of things. STR, on the other hand, is important for melee attacks, carrying capacity and dishing out as much damage as possible. A cleric can do better by investing heavily in STR, rather than in CON. Not saying it's so happening in Malak's case, but it's something that bears mentioning.umm, what about action economy (i think that's what it is called)? having to worry about losing a round every 2, 3, 4, or maybe 5 rounds to stop and heal. that's an attack he doesn't get because he didn't spend a few more points on con. how dose that factor in?
on a side and more individual note, I doubt Malak in particular used that build because of his comments about displays of force. makes it sound like he is favor of a more subtle approach than running up to someone and beating them to death.

[rewinn]

.... I doubt Malak in particular used that build because of his comments about displays of force. makes it sound like he is favor of a more subtle approach than running up to someone and beating them to death.

Who ever heard of a character in OOTS with a sub-optimal build?

[HalfTangible]

Who ever heard of a character in OOTS with a sub-optimal build?

There's a difference between a build being weak and a build being against a character's personality.

[Mordokai]

umm, what about action economy (i think that's what it is called)? having to worry about losing a round every 2, 3, 4, or maybe 5 rounds to stop and heal. that's an attack he doesn't get because he didn't spend a few more points on con. how dose that factor in?

Buffs can take you a long way. Buff your AC, your temp HP, your other defenses. Hell, blink if you can, get etheral, give yourself undead immunities. If you don't heal every so often, you have no place as cleric. And if you only need to heal yourself or your allies every five rounds, you're doing spectacular job.

[Dancing_Fox]

So, the obvious question is - why didn't Haley (and Elan) try to get the attention of her two powerful allies who were standing right there?A simple plausible excuse would have been all that was needed.


Maybe it is because she figures that it is a problem that she and Elan can solve alone, such as rescuing her dad - and as a bonus get reunited with Roy.

Can't think of many other good fits to why you'd run off like that. It can't be to confront Tarquin, as some have suggested. She'd involve her party for that, as they are so handy and co-incidentally right near the main known ally.

[Asis]

So, the obvious question is - why didn't Haley (and Elan) try to get the attention of her two powerful allies who were standing right there?A simple plausible excuse would have been all that was needed.


Maybe it is because she figures that it is a problem that she and Elan can solve alone, such as rescuing her dad - and as a bonus get reunited with Roy.

Can't think of many other good fits to why you'd run off like that. It can't be to confront Tarquin, as some have suggested. She'd involve her party for that, as they are so handy and co-incidentally right near the main known ally.
Easy: she was 'taunted' by Elan's speech and decided to do something rash without considering thinking of a plan, getting backup or anything like that.
Still, it couldn't have gone better. If they asked for help to those two, then the LN Cleric would find out their true colors and attack and/or alert the guards.

Don't take me wrong, whatever they're going to do, I'm 100% sure that it will fail. Fighting against Elan's father is suicidal and freeing Roy and 'The red' will get them discovered... but what's a story without a little tension, no?

[Jaffo]

I'm guessing that Tarquin fighting Haley is the next comic.

You think so? Tarquin seems to be too interesting for simple combat. I'd expect him to win through trickery or outmaneuver the party in some other way.

[TheMeMan]

I don't know why, but this strip made me love Malack and Blackwing more. :smallcool:

Regarding Malack's alignment: It's hard to tell. As far as we know he sacrifices babies to keep himself alive, or he sacrifices his own health to keep babies alive.

I personally wouldn't consider wanting to feed who he thought was Nale & co. to the Empress that evil. However, he gets huge Evil points simply for associating with Tarquin. Even if he is being threatened somehow to stick with Tarquin and pals, he is still willingly letting (and [in]directly causing by helping with the scheme) atrocities happen daily (even if he disagrees 100% with said atrocities).

So I'm betting on Lawful Evil with good chance of becoming Lawful Neutral for now.

Simply associating with someone who is evil is not necessarily evil in and of itself. I think when it comes to cases like this, mindset is important for differentiating based on what we got. First, Malak views death as something that is the natural order of things. He (Personally) doesn't go out of his way to kill people, from the mindset he has been portrayed as. Further, he's at least shown a bit of contempt for Tarquin's actions, paticularly in the way he goes about things. I would say he would be more evil if he completely disagreed with Tarquin than given his current mindset. If you completely disagree with a person's atrocities, then by doing nothing you are going against your very nature. Instead, Malak is following his ideological base while not exerting it himself. Whether or not he saves or harms someone Tarquin has taken action against matters not, because it is the natural order of things for death to come to us all.

Now, that said if he committed such acts himself, I would place him rather heavily in the Evil side. However, so far he doesn't seem an accomplice to Tarquin's affairs, only complicit. That doesn't necessarily make him evil.

[TheMeMan]

Being "vile-Evil" and "Altruistic Evil" simultaneously is possible- but very unlikely. You'd have to have a force willing to grant Vile Feats (which are supernatural, and can be revoked) to an out-and-out altruist.

Malack appears to find displays of brute force distasteful, true.

He might be a "punch clock villain" who goes along with Tarquin's plans simply because he can't be bothered to summon up any disapproval, and he's loyal to his friend first, but not interested in other people not close to him.

Point I'm getting at is that disinterest for the well-being of others whom you don't know isn't really evil, nor necessarily vile. It can easily be a neutral standpoint.

Also, for some reason I'm envisioning his voice sound like Allen Rickman's. Wierd.

[Knaight]

He tried to feed two victims of mistaken identity to a red dragon. The only thing that stopped him was Tarquin giving his word the prisoners would not be harmed.

Yes, but he did this under the impression that they were Nale and Sabine trying to come up with cheap excuses to get out of trouble. Considering the known history of Nale, this is entirely reasonable, its not evil, just unfortunate.

Regarding the whole strength/constitution gap, there are ways that can be very realistic. I know someone who is quite strong, but can't run two hundred meters straight, due to being easily winded. The reason being that they are easily two meters tall, for their size they aren't particularly strong, but once you are that much bigger than most everyone else that translates into quite a bit of muscle.

[ref]

I love how we get small talk and the important thing happens in the background. Rich has showed us again that he can give us a meaningful strip with stick figures and no words (see Celia's and Roy's dinner in what was then called Azure City).

[RecklessFable]

the cake is a lie

This, totally.

Reference aside, it is probably made from the tears the slave children.

[Sylthia]

Nice comic. I wonder if Tarquin will let them escape easily so Elan can come back to fullfill his destiny later. Once, or if, they bust out Roy and co, I wonder if Ian knows as much about Girard as he does Tarquin's true nature.

[Red XIV]

However, he gets huge Evil points simply for associating with Tarquin. Even if he is being threatened somehow to stick with Tarquin and pals, he is still willingly letting (and [in]directly causing by helping with the scheme) atrocities happen daily (even if he disagrees 100% with said atrocities).
Unless he considers the atrocities going on under Tarquin's scheme to be better, or at least no worse, than what would happen normally. Given what we've been told about the history of the Western Continent, that wouldn't be a particularly unreasonable conclusion.

[semi]

Any chance the cake is a play on the more decorative rather than edible ones with people in them? Maybe a particular enemy of the state or something similar?

[Nevereatcars]

I like V. I've heard people claim to despise V, but I like him/her/it a lot. Waited for weeks for him/her/it get the spotlight again.

[Samuraiko]

"Hello. My name is Haley Starshine. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

*as Elan weeps with joy for her pop culture reference, with sorrow coz it's HIS dad, and with appreciation for the drama of it all*

[Defiant]

Simply amazing! :smallbiggrin:

[megabyter5]

"Hello. My name is Haley Starshine. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

*as Elan weeps with joy for her pop culture reference, with sorrow coz it's HIS dad, and with appreciation for the drama of it all*

The Giant isn't gonna reference the same line twice, even with hundreds of strips in between.

[Sutremaine]

For a moment I wondered why the conversation turned so easily to cake after Malack's comment about the bonds between adoptive family. Then I realised that the conversation was fading in and out in all the panels, but since it was only the second panel it wasn't yet fully obvious.

[the humanity]

you need to do more with the cake!

cast light on the cake as a distraction!

fireball the cake accidentally!

shatter the cake!

[Wonton]

Heh. Tier Envy. :smallamused:

[fretgod99]

Tier envy. Nice. Great comic overall. Good transition piece.

[silvadel]

"Hello. My name is Haley Starshine. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

*as Elan weeps with joy for her pop culture reference, with sorrow coz it's HIS dad, and with appreciation for the drama of it all*

Naw -- she is a rogue -- a good backstab is a much better start -- and the only way of having any chance at all of success.

[Cerlis]

lets not forget that since each panel has entirely different conversations in the foreground, that apparently the conversation in the back is extended. So it seems Elan is probably telling Haley EVERYTHING, probably with commentary, apologies and theories (Elan commentary apologies and theories but still there none the less)

[Gavinfoxx]

I don't get the hemline thing. Can someone explain that part to me?

[Cerlis]

I don't get the hemline thing. Can someone explain that part to me?


I belive its the part where teh upper piece (torso) of cloth is connected to the lower piece (which is usually a seperate piece that has a wider inside diameter, so spread out for the legs)

Basically the fabric starts spreading at V's neckline to waist (somewhere in there) so its like weiring a big sheat with sleave, and is easy to move around it, but it keep it under control V uses a belt.

Malack doesnt use a belt (for whatever reason) so the upper portion is tigher and more form fitting, and there is probably stitching around his waste where its connected to a more loose piece of cloth to allow leg movement. while V's style could be made out of a single piece of cloth, Malacks is probably two sewn together, top and bottom


....

or something like that.

[Baron Pineapple]

Uh, not quite. The hemline is the bottom of the length of your draped garments, be they skirts, dresses, kilts, robes, or longcoats.

Hemline

–noun
1.
the bottom edge of a coat, dress, skirt, etc.
2.
the level of this edge as expressed in inches from the floor: an 18-inch hemline.

[Piesaac]

It must stink being a non-humanoid in a mostly-human organization. I doubt cake is part of Malack's "special diet", and a whole cake would barely be a light snack for the Empress. I mean, the whole parade WAS for Elan, but still. A disadvantage of being an equal-opportunity empire, I suppose.

You realize that Malack is a VAMPIRE, right? 'Albino' with a 'Special Diet'? C'mon, now.

[JaronK]

I for one approved of this comic immensely.

JaronK

[The MunchKING]

You realize that Malack is a VAMPIRE, right? 'Albino' with a 'Special Diet'? C'mon, now.

Except he was hanging out in the sunlight without dying horribly.

[Aerysil]

What is seen being said without words, so much more meaningful.

I do like the style of narrative in this arc.

[Barlen]

Assuming that Elan told Haley everything, such as the fact that he fought with his father and his father is still going to help them and tell them about Girard, I don't see them running off to fight with Tarquin. Likewise no immediate jailbreak, they still need that information.

They might run down to the jail to see if Haley's father is in fact still there since they don't know for certain yet.

Concerning Malek, he is the one who pointed out somewhat apologetically that his god isn't necessarily evil. He probably wouldn't have done that if he himself were evil since there was no reason for him to appear otherwise.

[Felixc-91]

Who ever heard of a character in OOTS with a sub-optimal build? Optimization level isn't the point, its a style thing.

[Felixc-91]

"Hello. My name is Haley Starshine. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

*as Elan weeps with joy for her pop culture reference, with sorrow coz it's HIS dad, and with appreciation for the drama of it all*


The Giant isn't gonna reference the same line twice, even with hundreds of strips in between.

that and, you know, IAN'S NOT DEAD! and isn't likely to die any time soon due to his skill in not getting put in the arena among other things.

[Felixc-91]

Concerning Malek, he is the one who pointed out somewhat apologetically that his god isn't necessarily evil. He probably wouldn't have done that if he himself were evil since there was no reason for him to appear otherwise. you know, this is the best argument i have heard for Malek being neutral so far. good catch.

[snikrept]

The "display of force" Malack is referring to, I guess, is Resurrecting all his kids?

Malack gets more and more awesome. I do hope he gets more than a bit part as the plot continues.

EDIT r.e. Malack doing evil things: his "special diet" could be the hearts of babies or something.

[brionl]

I'll bet it's a White Chocolate cake. That stuff is evil and a lie.

Huh? What about Haley and Elan?

[snikrept]

Also, he serves the god of death and ruin. It's totally in his patron's interest to see the continent burn in useless neverending war.

[The MunchKING]

Also, he serves the god of death and ruin. It's totally in his patron's interest to see the continent burn in useless neverending war.

Only if his God is about maximizing short-term deaths without cares for tommorow.

A stable population would lead to more people since all the guys and most of the girls aren't being killed off in armies. And they're all going to die eventually. Thus if you're REALLY about maximizing the Deaths, peace and stability are, Ironically, your best bet.

[snikrept]

..though from Malack's own description one sort of gets the idea that Nergal enjoys when things go out by exploding, rather than, say, planned obsolescence.:smallbiggrin:

"His fiery rage brings the end of all things..."

[binyamin20]

Speaking as a one time wizard, two time cleric, and One time ranger, I think I can say with some authority that the only class that really complains is fighter. They are the only ones with no special shtick, they just attack physically. While I am sure that a good player (kinda like Roy) can make this very powerful, this leads to the complaining, whitch brings me to my question: If ROy isn't the kibitzer type, then who is Durkon referring to when he agrees?

[Prospekt]

I see Elan's/Haley's expressions as more of Elan describing what Tarquin is doing, not so much the whole Tyrania thing. Sure, it could be brought up, but the situation with Tarquin was much more happening. Plus, recall that Haley was right about how evil Tarquin really is, that's probably why he ran back to her.

[The MunchKING]

If ROy isn't the kibitzer type, then who is Durkon referring to when he agrees?

Belkar most likely

[Felixc-91]

Belkar most likelyor people in general, he did adventure with other parties before joining Roy. heh, belkar has no right to complain, he choose a spell casting class, he just screwed it up so badly that he can't cast spells, :smallbiggrin:.

[The MunchKING]

or people in general, he did adventure with other parties before joining Roy. heh, belkar has no right to complain, he choose a spell casting class, he just screwed it up so badly that he can't cast spells, :smallbiggrin:.

It's not HIS fault he has a wisdom normally reserved for Lemurs.

[abbott.e]

With regard to Malack's constitution score, also to the fact that he's wearing robes not armour, he may have on "robes of enhanced Constitution +5" or something, and then rely on dexterity for his armour class (or other magic items,) Tarquin did say he had a few magic items, it's probable his adventuring partner also has some high end goodies.

[Felixc-91]

It's not HIS fault he has a wisdom normally reserved for Lemurs.true, but he was the one who picked ranger. if he had picked otherwise he could have used his CHA (something which we have some evidence for being fairly good) or his INT (really not sure on that one). point is he choose a class which he couldn't use proper.

[Firemeier]

The OotS just got split up into three pairs, like Tarquin's party. While that doesn't necessarily mean anything, it could be the setup for future 2on2 confrontations.

[Killer Angel]

"tier envy"... LOL :smallbiggrin:
Decisely, a good way to start friday.

[hamishspence]

Point I'm getting at is that disinterest for the well-being of others whom you don't know isn't really evil, nor necessarily vile. It can easily be a neutral standpoint.

True- but if you participate in a plan detrimental to the wellbeing of others simply because you are "disinterested" in them- and only interested in your own wellbeing and that of your friends, that's more a sign of Evil.

Evil acts can be done for "convenience" or "enjoyment" - but both by default are generally indicative of Evil alignment if they are routine behaviour.

Even Evil acts done "to improve the wellbeing of others" can be a sign of Evil alignment if they are severe enough or common enough.

[Burner28]

Evil acts can be done for "convenience" or "enjoyment" - but both by default are generally indicative of Evil alignment if they are routine behaviour.

Even Evil acts done "to improve the wellbeing of others" can be a sign of Evil alignment if they are severe enough or common enough.

Yep, though unlike Tarquin, one can somewhat argue that maybe Malack is LN though IMO he is more likely to be LE than LN. I'm not too sure really though which alignment he is

[hamishspence]

Yup- it depends how strongly you weight it.

If you consider "going along with Tarquin" to be very serious, then you might say "Malack should be assumed to be LE until evidence indicates otherwise".

But if you weight "going along with Tarquin" more lightly, you might say "he should be assumed to be LN until evidence indicates otherwise".

I personally weight it fairly highly- so tend to go with "Evil till other evidence says Not Evil".

But others might not.

[BridgeCity]

true, but he was the one who picked ranger. if he had picked otherwise he could have used his CHA (something which we have some evidence for being fairly good) or his INT (really not sure on that one). point is he choose a class which he couldn't use proper.

Isn't this secretly brilliant though? Belkar was not wise enough to understand that ranger was a bad choice when coupled with the aforementioned lack of wisdom.

[Cerlis]

Constitution-Why does Malak have to have a mechanical reason for wearing cloths? Robes are ceremonial. He probably doesnt have to deal with more than the occasional assassin. He is in the middle of his own domain and very high level. Clerics donning robes, and donning armor...when appropriate is common

Malak's association with Tarquinn. I'd like to point all those who say he might be evil because of his association with Tarquinn...over to Roy. Malak may be the servent of Death, but Belkar is his personal helper. If roy can associate with an evil monster without being evil so can the lizard.

and before the "But Roy ...." Malak probably has his own dealings with this, his reasons for aiding Tarquinn. Maybe hes evil, maybe hes not. but Thinking hes evil just cus someone else is, doesnt make enough sense

[hamishspence]

Malak's association with Tarquinn. I'd like to point all those who say he might be evil because of his association with Tarquinn...over to Roy. Malak may be the servent of Death, but Belkar is his personal helper. If roy can associate with an evil monster without being evil so can the lizard.

The amount of evil Belkar does though while allied with Roy, may be somewhat less than the amount of evil Tarquin does while allied with Malack.

And Roy at least tries to stop Belkar when he catches him doing evil- we haven't seen anything like that with Malack.

[Burner28]

Constitution-Why does Malak have to have a mechanical reason for wearing cloths? Robes are ceremonial. He probably doesnt have to deal with more than the occasional assassin. He is in the middle of his own domain and very high level. Clerics donning robes, and donning armor...when appropriate is common

Malak's association with Tarquinn. I'd like to point all those who say he might be evil because of his association with Tarquinn...over to Roy. Malak may be the servent of Death, but Belkar is his personal helper. If roy can associate with an evil monster without being evil so can the lizard.

and before the "But Roy ...." Malak probably has his own dealings with this, his reasons for aiding Tarquinn. Maybe hes evil, maybe hes not. but Thinking hes evil just cus someone else is, doesnt make enough sense

Well although your argument does makes sense I am not the one saying
"Associating with Evil characters makes you Evil" but rather that I do have some arguments(if limited) to belive that Malack may be more likely to be LE than LN.

Though strangely enough, although using Evil means towards a Good end makes one evil, Roy was still Lawful Good because he used an Evil person towards a Good end. Go figure:smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

Though strangely enough, although using Evil means towards a Good end makes one evil, Roy was still Lawful Good because he used an Evil person towards a Good end. Go figure:smalltongue:

Both Defenders of the Faith (paladin/cleric splatbook) and BoED allow for cooperation with Evil people towards Good ends. BoED does say you can't just turn a blind eye toward their deeds though.

[Lupusater]

I hope Haley isn't going to confront Tarquin, because if she does, she's dead. No ifs and no buts. Think about it: what better motivation for Elan to overthrow Tarquin in a totally dramatic manner than avenging his girlfriend?
Except this won't happen because of the happy ending prophecy.

[pendell]

I applaud this strip. It reminds me of the silent movie genre with the stick expressions. It allows us to get Haley caught up without actually going through the entire exposition again.

I wonder why they just rush off and not try to fill in Durkon and V as well?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Morph Bark]

I wonder why they just rush off and not try to fill in Durkon and V as well?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

They obviously suffer from Tier Envy and are going to try and prove their power to them. :smallwink:

[Roderick_BR]

Tier Envy. :smallbiggrin:

Fully agreed :smallbiggrin: Well played, mr. Giant, well played.

[Clertar]

Amazing strip :D

[Swordpriest]

I can't really believe that Malack's thin, contrived excuses about Nergal have actually convinced a large number of people that both Nergal and Malack are great, wonderful, sweet, kindhearted guys who help old slaves across the street and give candy to baby gladiators (before their throats are cut, of course). :smallamused:

"This is Nergal, a scowling, lion-headed god whose portfolio is Death and Destruction, and his fiery rage brings the end of all things. But he's really just a regular guy, Durkon -- honest!!! Gee whiz, you don't think death, destruction, and fiery, world-consuming rage are anything but gentleness, kindness, mercy, and a regard for the sanctity of life and all kinds of wonder and sweetness, do you?"

Durkon (non-committal): "Uh-huh."

Forum posters: "Gosh golly gee whillikers!!!! Malack really has a heart of gold and must be a really nice guy, just because he says so, and it's absolutely impossible that he'd lie about anything at all when talking to a Lawful Good cleric!!! Especially since he's helped to vigorously establish and maintain a long series of murderous, oppressive, torturing, slave-driving, maiming dictatorships!!!!! Wow, what a guy!!!! He must be Lawful Extra Super Dooper Good!!!!!!!"

I swear, these forums give me just as many laughs as the comic, sometimes. :smallbiggrin:

[oddtail]

Regarding Malak's being evil - he talks like he's not. True, he could be polite and refined and still evil, but as has been mentioned in this thread - he points out that his god does not have to be evil. So he probably thinks that it matters. To the point, I might add, when he doesn't want to be automatically considered evil - that's either unnecessary deception or a certain distaste for Evil in general. And yes, he associates with Tarquin - but this is not out of character for someone Neutral. Remember the thing that nobody apparently mentioned yet - Tarquin is his longtime friend. Even Roy, who is obviously Good, pointed out to Miko once that sometimes alignment is not everything. Malak may or may not think that what Tarquin does is wrong, but friendship and trust trumps that.

Plus, if Malak is really a vampire or some other unnatural being - how many nations would be willing to accept him for what he is? Tarquin gives him a safe home and place of worship. Even the Good NPCs would bring out the torches and pitchforks to kill him, in many places.

Another thing - in real life as in OotS, people higher up often don't care about the common man without being evil incarnate. Malak may not hold the people of the Empire of Blood in high regard because he thinks they're the lowly masses or, heck, because he really hasn't thought about them, they are just some abstract bunch of strangers to him. This does disqualify him from even having a shot at being Good, but I think he might well be Lawful Neutral. I even think he might be True Neutral. I don't see him as particularly Lawful, so far.

Regarding Malak's STR and CON - it may be suboptimal, but if he's some kind of an undead lizard, maybe his template gives him a STR bonus. Or maybe his parents were really old-fashioned and they only allowed him to roll his stats without assigning them, and he got stuck with a high STR. Remember that Haley's dad was a First Edition thief? Malak may have been stuck with stats like that, not chosen them.

That was the rules-wise explanation. The other one: not everything in OotS-verse has to exactly follow D&D rules for player characters. Sure, there is a lot of silliness, both jokes and more serious stuff, that follows D&D-logic. But even so, have you never played a campaign where the stats of NPCs are just determined by the DM? And even *if* Malak was rolled up normally *and* had his stats assigned meaningfully, he may have decided to stop being, say, a warrior when he found his true religious calling. Or he may have gone against his stats (much to his parents' displeasure, I imagine) from the start. Come on, Roy's brain is tastier than V's and Durkon's. He easily has very high INT, possibly as high as 18. But he decided to be a Fighter. Why couldn't Malak ignore his high STR and decided to be a Cleric?

[DrakebloodIV]

The amount of evil Belkar does though while allied with Roy, may be somewhat less than the amount of evil Tarquin does while allied with Malack.

And Roy at least tries to stop Belkar when he catches him doing evil- we haven't seen anything like that with Malack.

But, if you consider the amount of LAW that Tarquin generates compared to the amount of evil he does, than Malack has a very justifiable reason to stay with him. Tarquin has taken what was originally either an entirely CE or CN continent and transformed it into a LE one (or, one which is LE to LN, with Tarquin's state being the most evil). While Malack might (and it is definitely might, because no specific alignment has been given) disagree on the fairness of the laws Tarquin creates, he definitely prefers them to anarchy.

Belkar, meanwhile is generating both Chaos and Evil, neither of which Roy particularly likes, although Roy's Law has some pretty neutral tendencies in my opinion. He only works with Belkar to keep from letting that halfling go on a worldwide rampage of murderous intent. He hates Belkar, but puts up with him because of the benefits to his quest and necessity of his alignment.

[Drakonzeta]

Don't know if anyone posted this before, but Blackwing's missing eyes in the 6th panel.

[Faramir]

So, the obvious question is - why didn't Haley (and Elan) try to get the attention of her two powerful allies who were standing right there?A simple plausible excuse would have been all that was needed.


Maybe it is because she figures that it is a problem that she and Elan can solve alone, such as rescuing her dad - and as a bonus get reunited with Roy.

Can't think of many other good fits to why you'd run off like that. It can't be to confront Tarquin, as some have suggested. She'd involve her party for that, as they are so handy and co-incidentally right near the main known ally.

They're almost certainly running off to either
a) try to rescue her father
or
b) (much less likely) to offer to pay his ransom

Haley has been keeping the existence of her imprisoned father a secret from everyone but Elan.

[Neopolis]

I can't really believe that Malack's thin, contrived excuses about Nergal have actually convinced a large number of people that both Nergal and Malack are great, wonderful, sweet, kindhearted guys who help old slaves across the street and give candy to baby gladiators (before their throats are cut, of course). :smallamused:

"This is Nergal, a scowling, lion-headed god whose portfolio is Death and Destruction, and his fiery rage brings the end of all things. But he's really just a regular guy, Durkon -- honest!!! Gee whiz, you don't think death, destruction, and fiery, world-consuming rage are anything but gentleness, kindness, mercy, and a regard for the sanctity of life and all kinds of wonder and sweetness, do you?"

Durkon (non-committal): "Uh-huh."

Forum posters: "Gosh golly gee whillikers!!!! Malack really has a heart of gold and must be a really nice guy, just because he says so, and it's absolutely impossible that he'd lie about anything at all when talking to a Lawful Good cleric!!! Especially since he's helped to vigorously establish and maintain a long series of murderous, oppressive, torturing, slave-driving, maiming dictatorships!!!!! Wow, what a guy!!!! He must be Lawful Extra Super Dooper Good!!!!!!!"

I swear, these forums give me just as many laughs as the comic, sometimes. :smallbiggrin:
That's the biggest hyperbole in human history!

First of all, no one's claimed Malack to be good, just Neutral. And whether or not he was lying, the "death is neutral" thing makes sense. Furthermore, since he lives in a Lawful Evil state, he has no reason to lie about the alignment of an evil god. In fact, he'd probably be more respected if he did worship an evil god. Now why would he go out of his way to lie, a very nonlawful thing to do, without even having a good reason?

Malack sure isn't Good, but we can't really say whether he's Neutral or Evil yet.

[The MunchKING]

That's the biggest hyperbole in human history!

And there's the second. :smalltongue:

[Gift Jeraff]

Don't know if anyone posted this before, but Blackwing's missing eyes in the 6th panel.
He is facing Elan and Haley.

[Bulzeeb]

I wonder why they just rush off and not try to fill in Durkon and V as well?
Can't say for sure, but it's possible that it's because Elan relayed to Haley that her father is probably imprisoned in the country. Since she expressed sentiments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html)that her father would not want people "outside the family" to help his escape, especially law-and-order types like Durkon, it's possible that she's wanting to break him out with only the help of Elan. Alternately, she could just pay whoever's in charge of ransoms, a task for which Durkon and V would not be needed.

-

edit: second part ninja'd by above post

[One Tin Soldier]

A couple thoughts regarding some of the comments in this thread.
1. V's children are adopted? I'm certain that this was never told to us in the main comic. Was it told in Origin of PCs? or something else?
2. In regards to Malack's scores, everyone seems to assume that he has very low CON and a high STR. While i can see a Con of 5 or so as reasonable, why would he have high STR? We haven't seen any real evidence of it, and even the original post concerning the subject only spoke of average strength (10 or so).

[The MunchKING]

A couple thoughts regarding some of the comments in this thread.
1. V's children are adopted? I'm certain that this was never told to us in the main comic. Was it told in Origin of PCs? or something else?

No, she talked about it when the dragon was preparing to attack.

EDIT: Specifically Oh noes!! My ADOPTED Progeny will be eaten!! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0631.html)


2. In regards to Malack's scores, everyone seems to assume that he has very low CON and a high STR.

Why would Albino-ism give you a low con anyway??

[rewinn]

There's a difference between a build being weak and a build being against a character's personality.

Certainly. But nothing in Malek's personality militates against him (assuming male) having been born with low con & str (assuming the forum's conscensus to be accurate) and still choosing to be a cleric. There is no evidence in Stickverse that children, upon being created by their parents, manipulate their statistics to build optimized characters.

[Faramir]

Certainly. But nothing in Malek's personality militates against him (assuming male) having been born with low con & str (assuming the forum's conscensus to be accurate) and still choosing to be a cleric. There is no evidence in Stickverse that children, upon being created by their parents, manipulate their statistics to build optimized characters.

Well - this could be interpreted to mean that:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html

[abbott.e]

Why would Albino-ism give you a low con anyway??
Ask Elric of Melnibone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elric)

[Gnoman]

I wonder why they just rush off and not try to fill in Durkon and V as well?


I assumed that Durkon and V noticed them, V whispered to Blackwing to check on them, and then D and V were trying to be distracting, hence the more and more trivial nature of the conversation - they were running out of things to talk about.

[scienceguy8]

I wonder why they just rush off and not try to fill in Durkon and V as well?
Because, for all they know, Malack, the lizard they are having a friendly conversation with, is just as evil as Tarquin, and is more likely to kill all four of them should he become suspicious. At least, that is my theory.

[faustin]

But Blackwing remains with V in the last two vignettes, instead of following Haley and Elan.

[Gnoman]

Right. he listens to the conversation between them, and now he can fill in D and V when they get away from the cleric.

[DougTheHead]

Certainly. But nothing in Malek's personality militates against him (assuming male) having been born with low con & str (assuming the forum's conscensus to be accurate) and still choosing to be a cleric. There is no evidence in Stickverse that children, upon being created by their parents, manipulate their statistics to build optimized characters.

I dunno, Malak seems like a pretty devout guy. It might be natural for him to decide, "I'm tired of being weak and sickly. From now on, I wreck **** up in service to my god."

[JohnnyTurbo]

Tier envy, hehe. Nice joke, although a bit exagerated.

[Gd8908]

Oh, boy. We need a Listen Check here. HELLO?! DURKON?! CAN I HAVE SOME CAKE?!! HELLO?!!! You can't here me can you?
Great strip. Kudos for the awesome "small talk" while the drama's going on in the background. :smallsmile:

[MoonCat]

Who here read the words first, and then "read" Elan and Haley's conversation?
Who here did vica versa? And who tried to go back and forth until they got dizzy and missed half of both conversations the first time they read it? :smile:

[Hithros]

hm...Malack's evil (well, he says neutral) and all but I kinda like his character :smalltongue:

I read the comic a couple times before I realized that Haley and Elan were actually conversing seriously as well. :smallsigh:

[GreenMuffin]

Who here read the words first, and then "read" Elan and Haley's conversation?
Who here did vica versa? And who tried to go back and forth until they got dizzy and missed half of both conversations the first time they read it? :smile:

I would be in the Third category. Or at least, for the first couple of panels, and then I said "screw it" and read the words.

[Jay R]

Good to see V has a healthy interest in cake.

Of course. The paper on the dessert pedestal under the cake is at first glance just a decorative layer, but sensing more afoot, V delved deeper into the intricacies of the patterns formed by the doily. And lo, V discovered that the weaving of the white paper formed a matrix that resonated with arcane power. That within the mystic sigil that is the doily, there lay a path taken by few. For the humble doorway is indeed the gateway to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)!

[Conuly]

I knew somebody would bring up the doily. As a group, we're a bottomless pit of [comic] references, aren't we? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0683.html)

With that said, I know what many of the comic panels are alluding to - V's soul-leasing, V's adopted children, doilies, last comic, random minutiae...

But the second-to-last panel intrigues me. Durkon's not sure what Thor's congregation would think about what, exactly? Moving to the desert? Allying with the trees? Drinking tea instead of ale? Or something plot-related and serious?

[Cerlis]

The amount of evil Belkar does though while allied with Roy, may be somewhat less than the amount of evil Tarquin does while allied with Malack.

And Roy at least tries to stop Belkar when he catches him doing evil- we haven't seen anything like that with Malack.

and there is about 30 or 40 years of interactino between Malak and Tarquinn we havent seen. Malak has barely even interacted with Tarquinn on screen

If you want to talk hypothesis then one good one would be about how ...like a good party has an evil character that endures their "goodness" Malak might just be that Evil party equivelant (Neutral, not good, to stop that pointless argument). If he's neutral, and he worships the God of death and destruction and sees it as an normal part of life, it probably doesnt matter to him a lick if Tarquinn simply executes escaped slaves, or executes them in a horrible way. Either way they are dead and their souls pass on. Further as others have said, in the meantime Tarquinn is sewing order into the land.

I'm in no way saying that Malak is good, evil, or neutral. I'm saying we havent seen enough of him to make an accurate decision.


hm...Malack's evil (well, he says neutral) and all but I kinda like his character I believe he said his God is Neutral (right?) He probably sees himself as neutral. but no solid evidence one way or another

[hamishspence]

I'm in no way saying that Malak is good, evil, or neutral. I'm saying we havent seen enough of him to make an accurate decision.

Plausible. Still, we have some info, even if not necessarily enough.

We may not have enough for a "very high probability conclusion" but we might have enough for a "reasonable conclusion".

When Miko first came on the scene, she was thought to be an Assassin by quite a few posters- due to limited info and unusual behaviour- so here turning out to be a Paladin came as a big surprise.

However, we've seen more of Malack then we had of Miko at that point.

[littlekKID]

Hey wait, Malack is a cleric! Why's he wearing robes instead of armor? He obviously has a very low CON (my guess: 3-5) but his STR doesn't seem to be any less than normal.


from what we've seen, most clerics (beside the cleric of Loki from the Greysky arc) wear robes when they're not adventuring\fighting (working in a temple, stuff like this), maybe Malack wore armor back when he was an adventurer, but since he's more of High priest\Evil adviser now, he's wearing robes

[Kish]

I believe he said his God is Neutral (right?)
He said his god is neutral in the same way Tarquin said he was sending troops to help the Free City of Doom.

Technically, Malack said that the Neutral alignment suits death gods in general much better than the Evil one, and, I thought, actually seemed to be very carefully avoiding stating his god's alignment, or his own.

[martianmister]

But the second-to-last panel intrigues me. Durkon's not sure what Thor's congregation would think about what, exactly? Moving to the desert? Allying with the trees? Drinking tea instead of ale? Or something plot-related and serious?

He talks about cake.

[Vreejack]

Aside from the lack of overtly evil actions by Malek, and the defense of the neutral nature of his god, I wonder if his need for a special diet comes from not wanting to partake of what is obviously gratuitously evil food.

His claiming to require a special diet might be just a polite way of refraining from what he views as a distasteful activity, alignment-wise.

Tarquin might request Malek's help when necessary without feeling the need to push it by bringing him in on, say, torching escaped slaves in creative ways.

====
FLAN

[rewinn]

There is no evidence in Stickverse that children, upon being created by their parents, manipulate their statistics to build optimized characters.
Well - this could be interpreted to mean that:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html

Oops!

OK, on the face of it, that's a good piece of evidence. But, um, uh ... it's said by Nale, who has an excellent knowledge of D-and-D tropes, plus a fascination with complicated plans. Nale simply prefers to attribute Thog's low Int to a deliberate, fiendish plan instead of it simply being the way Thog was born.

And then there's the time O-Chul mentions taking CHR as a dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html). But that's easily explained away. O-Chul can break any rule he wants, because O-Chul can break ANYTHING he wants!

You're not buying it?

Me neither. For an entirely different explanation ... let's look at what point children choose their dump stats. The two examples above suggest that it's when one picks a profession, which seems to be when one approaches adulthood. It's not clear how this works in stickverse, but if stickverse adolescents are like realworld adolescents, one may expect sub-optimal builds as a matter of course.


I dunno, Malak seems like a pretty devout guy. It might be natural for him to decide, "I'm tired of being weak and sickly. From now on, I wreck **** up in service to my god."

Maybe but in the current page he disparages excessive displays of force. He's still kind of hard to figure out, which is part of making a good story I suppose.
Aside from the lack of overtly evil actions by Malek, and the defense of the neutral nature of his god, I wonder if his need for a special diet comes from not wanting to partake of what is obviously gratuitously evil food.

His claiming to require a special diet might be just a polite way of refraining from what he views as a distasteful activity, alignment-wise.
Yep, he's an interesting puzzle. How will he react when the inevitable conflict breaks out?

[Aldrakan]

Yep, he's an interesting puzzle. How will he react when the inevitable conflict breaks out?

Even leaving aside the alignment issues, when Nale went against his father's plans, three of Malack's children died. I wonder how he's going to take the news that one of Tarquin's children is trying to mess up the arrangement again.

[Defiant]

Am I the only one who feels that the conversation between Elan and Haley is perfect as it is, and is best left unrevealed (and possibly un-speculated)?

I didn't even try to figure out what they were saying - it's too hilarious the way it is, with the beautiful contrast between the unimportant small talk between the spellcasters and the critically-important revelations in the background.

[Summergale]

Am I the only one who feels that the conversation between Elan and Haley is perfect as it is, and is best left unrevealed (and possibly un-speculated)?

I didn't even try to figure out what they were saying - it's too hilarious the way it is, with the beautiful contrast between the unimportant small talk between the spellcasters and the critically-important revelations in the background.

No, you're not the only one.

I think I'd just be repeating this post if I said what I liked about this comic.

[hamishspence]

It reminds me of this strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0313.html

though that one was all silent conversation- rather than one silent and one audible.

[MoonCat]

It reminds me of this strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0313.html

though that one was all silent conversation- rather than one silent and one audible.
Did anyone try to figure out what they were saying?

[hamishspence]

A bit:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5687

but not as much as with this strip.

[Dust]

Ah, Tier envy. The topic of perpetual conversations everywhere.

[Rev. George]

that would have put him in his prime at 11 CON and 20 STR (given the example above). what kind of cleric invests so heavily in strength and ignores his CON?

Maybe the kind who had a DM who was adamant that you got the scores that you rolled. I've played in those kinds of game...they can be great fun. you roll the stats, and then decide which class you want to be... Kind of like the real world in that aspect- The 6'4 guy will never be a great jockey, nor will the 98 IQ guy make for a great rocket scientist.

Alternately, perhaps he suffered some malady which permanently reduced his Con.

With regard to Malack's alignment, LN is getting my vote as well.

-+G

[Shale]

It seems pretty clear that OotS is a roll-your-stats sort of place. How else does Roy end up with high stats across the board while V gets 18 INT and nothing else remotely good?

[Raging Gene Ray]

Different individuals/groups/countries may be under the influence of different "house-rules," just like Zz'dtri had that 3.0 Fly spell.

[Arancaytar]

Now, that's a bit of a cliffhanger. Did or did not Elan told Haley about Tyrinaria?

Well, he obviously told her about something that she intends to do something about immediately. The slaves are all dead now, so it can't be that (but that's probably what her angry face is about). Until you mentioned Tyrinaria, I speculated that Elan might have mentioned the ambassador from the City of Doom, but this seems the far more likely possibility.

However, I'm not certain where she's going. There is simply no way she is going to ask Tarquin. He'd just use this. The jail? We know she should be going to the arena and find Roy, but how would she know that?

[rewinn]

Am I the only one who feels that the conversation between Elan and Haley is perfect as it is, and is best left unrevealed ...
Oh definitely. A *lot* of art is in the empty spaces, which we fill in with our imaginations. This may be more evident in comics (or "sequential art" for the hoity-toity) where the gap between panels must be cleverly chosen.

I do think that speculating on the conversation is a fun part of the experience. Is Shroedinger's cat alive or dead or sort of both?

[Felixc-91]

that would have put him in his prime at 11 CON and 20 STR (given the example above). what kind of cleric invests so heavily in strength and ignores his CON?

Maybe the kind who had a DM who was adamant that you got the scores that you rolled. I've played in those kinds of game...they can be great fun. you roll the stats, and then decide which class you want to be... Kind of like the real world in that aspect- The 6'4 guy will never be a great jockey, nor will the 98 IQ guy make for a great rocket scientist.

Alternately, perhaps he suffered some malady which permanently reduced his Con.

With regard to Malack's alignment, LN is getting my vote as well.

-+Ghuh, did some research. when i first made that comment, i figured that he would have to have invested at least 2 of his attribute points earned from leveling to attain that 20. i was wrong, lizard folk have a +2 racial to their STR. so in theory, he could have rolled that score in his character creation. +2 STR, +2 CON, -2 INT...

[Mr. Snuggles]

Malack can't be lawful. He was going to feed victims of mistaken identity to a dragon, without any sort of trial or legal authority. Tarquin did things according to the law when he screwed over the bounty hunters, even if he did cheat. Malack was also annoyed when Tarquin said he had given his word not to harm the prisoners. His god is death and destruction, which doesn't sound particularly nice. Besides, Tarquin was leader of an evil adventuring party, and what's the point of having non-evil members? Doesn't fit the theme. I'm guessing neutral evil.

[Felixc-91]

Malack can't be lawful. He was going to feed victims of mistaken identity to a dragon, without any sort of trial or legal authority. Tarquin did things according to the law when he screwed over the bounty hunters, even if he did cheat. Malack was also annoyed when Tarquin said he had given his word not to harm the prisoners. His god is death and destruction, which doesn't sound particularly nice. Besides, Tarquin was leader of an evil adventuring party, and what's the point of having non-evil members? Doesn't fit the theme. I'm guessing neutral evil.wrong, what he did was evil, not non lawful. he thought that Elan might have been Nale, lying to him, so he was going to send him to his death just to be sure. he didn't care about Elan's life in the slightest. the act you are talking about was evil, maybe even lawful evil.

[Calemyr]

A couple thoughts come to mind here:

1) With Malack's abysmal CON, I don't see why would wear high-profile armor in the first place. If he's in a position where it's needed, he's already dead five times over to begin with, and the rest of the time it's bulky, uncomfortable, noisy dead weight that is just going to draw attention to him, not to mention the expenses of getting racially modified armor of the quality he'd need to be useful. Better to have low-profile armor (if any) and get on with life in a comfortable clerk's robe.

2) Malack was willing to let the Empress eat the party, this is true, but it was because he still believed the brain damaged bard was Nale trying to pull a fast one by... er... being a slow one. Nale was responsible for the death of Malack's kids, after all, so it's hard to blame him for holding a grudge. And once he found out that Elan's incredibly implausible excuse was true he was quick to apologize, albeit not in any dramatic fashion. I'm not saying whether he's evil or neutral, but I wouldn't count neutral out yet. If Roy can have V and Belkar in a definitively good-aligned party, then the alignment-dismissing general could easily have a neutral ally - especially since his goal could be mistaken for halfway benevolent when examined in insufficient light.

3) This has got to be the best non-recap I've ever seen in a web comic. Get's the point across that Nale has told Haley what he's learned, but doesn't make us sit through it again. Instead, we get a little bit of character growth from V, and another dose of delightful veteran banter from our favorite clerics, plus enough lampshades to redecorate the throneroom once the Empress is overthrown...

[Kish]

Besides, Tarquin was leader of an evil adventuring party, and what's the point of having non-evil members?
Roy is leader of a good adventuring party. What's the point of Belkar or Vaarsuvius?

[The MunchKING]

Roy is leader of a good adventuring party. What's the point of Belkar or Vaarsuvius?

Firepower.

[Rev. George]

Besides, Tarquin was leader of an evil adventuring party, and what's the point of having non-evil members?
Roy is leader of a good adventuring party. What's the point of Belkar or Vaarsuvius?


The potential benefits are innumerable. Most of them revolve around the whole "evil" thing- Evil people tend to be the types who shiv you in the back when you aren't looking. Or when you need healing, or...So a neutral cleric might not be a bad choice.

Not to mention the "does not detect as evil" bit. And the potential (depends on godly pantheon) access to spells that might not be possible with an evil cleric.

-+G

[Cerlis]

Plausible. Still, we have some info, even if not necessarily enough.

We may not have enough for a "very high probability conclusion" but we might have enough for a "reasonable conclusion".

When Miko first came on the scene, she was thought to be an Assassin by quite a few posters- due to limited info and unusual behaviour- so here turning out to be a Paladin came as a big surprise.

However, we've seen more of Malack then we had of Miko at that point.

The only evidence we got is that Malak decided to feed an evil murderer of his children to a dragon, he doesnt eat obviously evil food, and that he doesnt have enough of a problem with the way Tarquinn does things to stop him, oweing to the fact that he is Tarquinns ally and sees Tarquinn's gravist travesty (excessive murder) as a natural process.

Haley murdered an ally in cold blood and shes still seen as Good. I think any evidence to say hes one way or the other is very circumstancial and involves more tolerance.

i think if a paladin can fall for torturing a bad guy to try to save people, then Malak shouldnt fall from NEutrality for not stopping a guy whos killing people who would die anyways.
-------------------------

He said his god is neutral in the same way Tarquin said he was sending troops to help the Free City of Doom.

But Malak said his God would be better associated with Neutrality, and Tarquinn never said that he was sending troops to Help.

I really think Malaks tolerance of evil party members is very simular to Our good party's tolerance of V's and Haley's Often Neutral and selfish actions. They will even indulge Belkar if his actions arent to out of line.

I think the confusion is with "Malak letting Tarquinn continue is wrong, so hes evil"

[Kish]

The only evidence we got is that Malak decided to feed an evil murderer of his children to a dragon, he doesnt eat obviously evil food, and that he doesnt have enough of a problem with the way Tarquinn does things to stop him, oweing to the fact that he is Tarquinns ally and sees Tarquinn's gravist travesty (excessive murder) as a natural process.

Haley murdered an ally in cold blood

The definition of "ally" will not stretch nearly that far.


i think if a paladin can fall for torturing a bad guy to try to save people, then Malak shouldnt fall from NEutrality for not stopping a guy whos killing people who would die anyways.

...Wow. It's only wrong to kill immortals? Torture is somehow morally ambiguous?


But Malak said his God would be better associated with Neutrality,

Just like Tarquin said his troops would be helping the Free City of Doom. Read again. He said death gods in general were better associated with Neutrality.

[martianmister]

Just like Tarquin said his troops would be helping the Free City of Doom. Read again. He said death gods in general were better associated with Neutrality.

But there is no reason for his lying.

[The MunchKING]

But there is no reason for his lying.

But he wouldn't BE lying. Just giving his opinion that Nuetrality would work better than Evil for Death Gods.

[rafaelloaa]

The cake is a lie!

[snikrept]

If he's not lying, it sounds like blasphemy though. "My god would be better, were he neutral and not evil." Not sure Nergal would like him going around saying that, were he actually evil and were it what Malack actually believes.


EDIT - regarding Malack's robes: who is to say he doesn't have armor on under that robe? It's pretty concealing. Also: we see him in the flashback with Nale wearing that robe *in battle* so it's not just ceremonial.

[rewinn]

EDIT - regarding Malack's robes: who is to say he doesn't have armor on under that robe? It's pretty concealing. Also: we see him in the flashback with Nale wearing that robe *in battle* so it's not just ceremonial.

Don't lizardfolk have some natural armor? That, plus a few protective items here and there might be sufficient for a non-melee-oriented cleric in everyday use.

[silvadel]

Oh -- with regard to the initial stats -- They do NOT have to be as high as all that...

1) Malack could have STARTED at a higher age than middle age.

2) Malack could EASILY have had a strength +4 or +6 item. If he wears a +6 belt of strength (which isnt a bad thing to have kicking around even for normal cloistered duties -- or if you need to move your desk)(also more likely considering just how many spare magic items Tarquin has) then it is 14 strength NOT 20 strength.

3) Other events could have happened -- encounter a magical pool or artifact that raises your strength by 4 but lowers your con by 4 or something.

[Gift Jeraff]

Also: we see him in the flashback with Nale wearing that robe *in battle* so it's not just ceremonial.
But that may have been an ambush by Nale or perhaps an argument which escalated into a battle (if Thog, Sabine, and Yikyik were already somehow part of the palace).

[Nevereatcars]

When exactly was it stated that Malack had low CON??? I must have missed that one.

[Raging Gene Ray]

EDIT - regarding Malack's robes: who is to say he doesn't have armor on under that robe? It's pretty concealing. Also: we see him in the flashback with Nale wearing that robe *in battle* so it's not just ceremonial.

Who's to say he doesn't have an elaborate array of automatic crossbows and wands under the robe that trigger all at once when he throws it back dramatically, either?

Ooh - maybe he's a brain in a jar underneath the robe and the lizardman body is really a construct that he controls!

[Yendor]

Who's to say he doesn't have an elaborate array of automatic crossbows and wands under the robe that trigger all at once when he throws it back dramatically, either?

Ooh - maybe he's a brain in a jar underneath the robe and the lizardman body is really a construct that he controls!

Remember kids, if it hasn't been explicitly contradicted, it's probably true!

[Rev. George]

i think if a paladin can fall for torturing a bad guy to try to save people, then Malak shouldnt fall from NEutrality for not stopping a guy whos killing people who would die anyways.

Unfair comparison... Paladins fall from grace, not from their alignment. The requirements of a paladin require that a person not stray. In the olden days you would fall even if you did things while not under your own control (and that may be the case, I haven't kept up with 4th ed). Even though you fell, unless the source of your fall was particularly heinous, you still were Lawful Good, just not a paladin.

-+G

[cc_kizz]

It took me a while to finish reading all the posts. This was another wonderful strip. :-) As has been pointed out before, these characters are so expressive! I'm looking forward to the next strip.

[hamishspence]

Unfair comparison... Paladins fall from grace, not from their alignment. The requirements of a paladin require that a person not stray. In the olden days you would fall even if you did things while not under your own control (and that may be the case, I haven't kept up with 4th ed).

4E dropped it entirely- while you must start with the alignment allowed (normally, your deity's alignment) you can change alignment without penalty and without becoming unable to level up.


Paladins are not granted their powers directly by their deity, but instead through various rites performed when they become paladins. Most of these rites involve days of prayer, vigils, tests and trials, and ritual purification followed by a knighting ceremony, but each faith has its own methods.

This ceremony of investiture gives a paladin the ability to wield divine powers. Once initiated, a paladin is a paladin forevermore. How justly, honorably, or compassionately the paladin wields those powers from that day forward is up to him, and paladins who stray too far from the tenets of their faith are punished by other members of the faithful.

Clerics get the same thing, sort of:

As a cleric, your deity does not directly grant you powers. Instead, your ordination or investiture as a cleric grants you the ability to wield divine powers. Clerics are usually formally ordained by existing clerics who perform a special ritual to do so, but on rare occasions a deity moves directly to ordain a worthy worshipper without any sort of priestly hierarchy involved. What you do with your powers once you are ordained is up to you, although if you flagrantly and openly defy your deity's tenets, you quickly earn the enmity of the faithful.

[Cerlis]

i think if a paladin can fall for torturing a bad guy to try to save people, then Malak shouldnt fall from NEutrality for not stopping a guy whos killing people who would die anyways.

Unfair comparison... Paladins fall from grace, not from their alignment. The requirements of a paladin require that a person not stray. In the olden days you would fall even if you did things while not under your own control (and that may be the case, I haven't kept up with 4th ed). Even though you fell, unless the source of your fall was particularly heinous, you still were Lawful Good, just not a paladin.

-+G

Not the point. Torturing someone is an Evil act. and Though a Paladin might save many lives by doing so it still counts as an evil act. His falling is just a beacon light that says it was wrong. So in order to Stay good and not do anything evil, you must keep yourself good. Even if that means not commiting an evil act for a good cause. Now some might argue that turning away from the needy is an evil act, but again thats them confusing Good/evil with Right/wrong. Not staining your soul with murder or other evils by and large seen by the community (i think) as a neutral act.

In other words in classic alignment a Good person is only responsible for the goodness of himself. you see this many times with Some saintly pacifist refusing to save people because to do so he'd have to commit evil.

Helping others is a good act, hurting others is an evil act, and helping oneself is a neutral act if you want to break it down to basics. Tarquinn isnt evil for not stopping Tarquinn, not stopping Tarquinn is neutral, and stopping him is good.

I do not know one way or the other what Malak's alignment is, but the whole "I'm not going to get involved because its not my fault, i dont want to die, it wont do any good, its not so bad" is the leading trope, cliche and stiche when it comes to conflict between neutral and good characters, usually when faced with a lawful evil regime. (See Han Solo. Not helping the rebels? Evil? No. Neutral? yes)

Malak may be evil. but attempting to avenge his children, and not stopping Tarquinn are not proof of it.

[Rev. George]

Not the point. Torturing someone is an Evil act. and Though a Paladin might save many lives by doing so it still counts as an evil act. His falling is just a beacon light that says it was wrong. So in order to Stay good and not do anything evil, you must keep yourself good.

the point I think that many people miss is that a person of good alignment can do an evil act and still remain good. Now, if they do it often enough their alignment will change, but that is more of a pattern of behavior issue.Paladins have a special requirement- A paladin must be 100% good. A lawful good fighter can be 73% good and still be lawful good. A Lawful neutral cleric and be 74% neutral and still be lawful neutral.

4E dropped it entirely- while you must start with the alignment allowed (normally, your deity's alignment) you can change alignment without penalty and without becoming unable to level up.

Wow...just... wow. I hope that most DM's put the kibosh on that crap.

-+G

[ThunderCat]

Helping others is a good act, hurting others is an evil act, and helping oneself is a neutral act if you want to break it down to basics. Tarquinn isnt evil for not stopping Tarquinn, not stopping Tarquinn is neutral, and stopping him is good.

I do not know one way or the other what Malak's alignment is, but the whole "I'm not going to get involved because its not my fault, i dont want to die, it wont do any good, its not so bad" is the leading trope, cliche and stiche when it comes to conflict between neutral and good characters, usually when faced with a lawful evil regime. (See Han Solo. Not helping the rebels? Evil? No. Neutral? yes)But hurting others to help oneself is evil. Malak helps Tarquin stay in power, and is thus responsible for the atrocities committed by EoB, as well as all the other evil empires before that. He sounds like a really nice person with many admirable qualities, but an evil alignment is not out of place for him.

[hamishspence]

Wow...just... wow. I hope that most DM's put the kibosh on that crap.

-+G

What's wrong with the idea? It's perfect for a "concealed evil" character who masquerades as a shining beacon of light- but works evil in secret- and loss of his powers isn't present, to give the game away.

[Gift Jeraff]

"I'm not going to get involved because its not my fault, i dont want to die, it wont do any good, its not so bad"
The neutral thing for Malack to do would be to call it quits and just ditch the group. He is still involved with Tarquin's plan, and not in a good way (as far as we know).

[Thoughtbot360]

You all do realize of course...that if the camera angle was switched to somehow include both the Cake AND Elan/Haley's conversation, we'd all be to impressed with cake to notice.

Very important choice the author made there.

Seriously, you know you'd be all like: "Holy crap, look at that cake! Is it spurting blood icing? Aw man that is so epically messed up! Hey, where'd Blackwing go? He was on V's shoulder a second a-oh there he is. So...about that cake..."

[MoonCat]

Suddenly, the answer to all the posters reprimanding Durkon and V for being so oblivious! And they wont be able to see the cake, so they can't say "why didn't they realize they were evil from the evil looking cake?" Yes! :vaarsuvius:Go my oblivouslings!:durkon:

[faustin]

The "Once best friends, now mortal enemies" is also match in the Star Wars theme( with al those Jedis switching between light and dark side).
At least, I hope that, when the unavoidable clash between Durkon and Malack finally arrive, it would be more spectacular than "The Ultimate Duel Between Clerics" of Azure City.

[Burner28]

Heh, and we get to find out a little more about Malack. Apparently he actually cares about the concept of love in contrast to Tarquin who doesn't really care about the wellbeing of women.

PS, I think the cake will be very large.