Front-Line Holy Warrior?

[Scarab83]

I'm going to be a player in a three day mini-campaign. A save the world sort of thing. We're starting at level 13, and it's gestalt.

I'm looking for some reasonable combinations for a holy warrior that can stand on the front lines, swing a sword like nobody's business, and shrug off most hits.

I was looking at Paladin/Fighter, but I don't know how well that would work together. Any other suggestions?

[Karsh]

...Crusader//Cleric?

Typically, you want one half of your gestalt to be your active half and the other half to be a passive half, so you'd focus on buffing with Cleric spells and making with the smashy-smashy as a Crusader.

[Scarab83]

I've never played a class from Tome of Battle, so I was a little reluctant to try one in such a short-lived game. Are they difficult to get a handle on?

[Morbis Meh]

second Crusader//Cleric preferably human specializing in divine metamagic (persist) so domains to take: Planning for free Extend Spell, and Spell Domain to gain access to anyspell which will allow you to persist Wraitstrike. If your DM will allow you to use Nightsticks all the better.

[Morbis Meh]

I've never played a class from Tome of Battle, so I was a little reluctant to try one in such a short-lived game. Are they difficult to get a handle on?

They're not overly hard to get a handle on, crusader has fewer stances and maneuvers making it a little easier to keep track of what you can do, not to mention they have a really good mechanic to recover maneuvers.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Crusaders are far easier to get a handle on than a spellcaster with unfamiliar spells, but they're harder to learn than a Barbarian, who just has to remember to add his rage bonuses and go to town with his greataxe.

That said, while a level 13 Crusader knows 11 maneuvers and 3 stances, he only readies six maneuvers and one stance, meaning you can have a 'standard' set of readied maneuvers and stances that you can look up before the game. I find that experimenting with new systems is good in a one shot or shorter game, because if you don't like the system or class you're not stuck with it for a while.

All that out of the way, if you don't want to experiment with ToB, Paladin//Cloistered Cleric with the same DMM Persist schtick is still a powerful class... mostly due to CC, but Paladin adds some goodies and lets you skip persisting Divine Power for some other nice spell, like Surge of Fortune.

[Saint GoH]

Cleric//Paladin or Crusader would be a good bet. Persisting Divine Power seems a little overkill for what you'll have on the opposite side (full BaB already, so only getting a +6 str bonus) so I'm not sure if it's worth it.

If yer looking at something complicated perhaps Cleric//Monk taking levels from Shiba Protector from Oriental Adventures (assuming your DM lets you waive the Oriental Clan bullcrap). Let's you add Wis to all attacks and damage, plus AC, plus main casting stat. Yer saves will be excellent and then you can persist Divine Power for a full BaB monk with +wis to everything in addition to your strength and other mods.

Also inquire about taking Saint Template. +2 LA on one side (preferably monk) gives you better saves, handy SLA's, and Wis to AC AGAIN as an insight. Goody.

[Morbis Meh]

A much better spell to persist is Stone Body from Spell Compendium.

[Mando Knight]

I was looking at Paladin/Fighter, but I don't know how well that would work together. Any other suggestions?

Paladin//Fighter is "Paladin, plus bonus feats." You'd get way more mileage out of Crusader or Paladin//Cleric, like the others suggested. Or if you're willing to sacrifice some of your armor, use Paladin//Sorcerer. Make sure you've got Divine Shield for that one.

[Hawk7915]

In core, Paladin//Cleric is a perfectly serviceable build. See if you can't get the Cleric to be a Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric), since you get none of the drawbacks but get to mooch 6 skills/level and a few more spells on the spells known list.

Outside of core, Crusader is a much stronger choice than Paladin. If you want to keep the Paladin, however, look at giving him levels in Gray Guard and/or Fist of Raziel, while the Cleric side takes a level or two each in Contemplative and Divine Oracle.

Cleric casting should focus on self and party-buffs, especially at this level where Cure spells are so worthless. A few prepared Heals and a wand or two of Lesser Vigor or Cure Light Wounds should keep the party nice and healthy. Divine Metamagic is pretty important (DMM: Persist being best, but for this build DMM: Quicken could be helpful), so for sure take that and possibly consider Extra Turning and/or Nightsticks, although as a Pally/Cleric you should have a phenomenal Charisma at 13th level. If you stay straight Paladin, make sure to acquire Power Attack, Battle Blessing, and a Devotion feat or two (you can ditch a cleric domain to get it).

[Scarab83]

I'd rather limit the cheese level to a minimum. I'm not trying to optimize, just have a valid character.

[Saint GoH]

I'd rather limit the cheese level to a minimum. I'm not trying to optimize, just have a valid character.

What do you take us as, realists?

I jest, I jest.

But in that case, might I second Mando Knight's suggestion? Paladin//Sorcerer would give you a decent hit die, full BaB, and Charisma based spell casting as well as to saves.

[Draz74]

If you don't want cheese (good for you!), definitely skip the Divine Metamagic: Persist buffs, especially Wraithstrike. Cleric//Paladin and Cleric//Crusader are still perfectly sound combinations, though. For other core combos, Cleric//Fighter works too. Paladin//Monk is quite weak, but could still be fun, if you rolled really high ability scores.

If you're willing to try out Tome of Battle (which I recommend -- and you might as well try it in a one-shot, if you're worried about figuring it out), another good option is Paladin//Swordsage.

If you're allowed Dragon Magazine material, there's a feat "Serenity" that changes all a Paladin's CHA-based class features to WIS-based. Great option if you combine Paladin with Cleric, Monk, or Swordsage.

Other random ideas:

Favored Soul//Knight
Paladin//Binder

[Soren Hero]

I second cloistered cleric/paladin..it gives you many options as far as spells/skills go, plus full bab, d10 HD, and charisma to saves...as someone else said, if u can get the saint template from Book of exalted Deeds, it would be amazing, even with teh RP requirements

[Scarab83]

Paladin/Sorcerer sounds interesting, but how do I get around the spell failure % with full plate? I'd take the Battle Caster feat, but I don't meet the prereqs, unless there's another feat I've missed.

Remember, we're at 13th level, with normal gold for that level.

[gorfnab]

Paladin/Sorcerer sounds interesting, but how do I get around the spell failure % with full plate? I'd take the Battle Caster feat, but I don't meet the prereqs, unless there's another feat I've missed.

Remember, we're at 13th level, with normal gold for that level.
Why would you want full plate? +X Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, +X Twilight Mithral Buckler, and a decent Dex score is better than having your speed reduced that much for just AC. Then you can also throw on spells like Blur, Mirror Image, Displacement, Alter Self, and the like to either boost your AC or give you a number of miss chances.

Or just go Paladin 13// Sorcerer 5/ Abjurant Champion (CM) 5/ Exalted Arcanist (BoED) 3 and have fun with Extended Quickened Shield of +9 AC and Extended Greater Luminous Armor (BoED) of +13 AC. If you can get a hold of the Dragon Compendium you could even add in one level of Battle Dancer for Cha mod to AC.

[Saint GoH]

Why would you want full plate? +X Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, +X Twilight Mithral Buckler, and a decent Dex score is better than having your speed reduced that much for just AC. Then you can also throw on spells like Blur, Mirror Image, Displacement, Alter Self, and the like to either boost your AC or give you a number of miss chances.

Or just go Paladin 13// Sorcerer 5/ Abjurant Champion (CM) 5/ Exalted Arcanist (BoED) 3 and have fun with Extended Quickened Shield of +9 AC and Extended Greater Luminous Armor (BoED) of +13 AC. If you can get a hold of the Dragon Compendium you could even add in one level of Battle Dancer for Cha mod to AC.

I dunno about the Abjurant Champion Exalted Arcanist idea, but in general you want this. Plate is quickly outweighed for casters when you can get twilight mithral chain shirts and bucklers

[super dark33]

can somone refer me to that cruesadar class?
never heard of it

[Escheton]

seeing that paladin does not add much besides bab really, and with cleric on the other side you only need that at lvl 1, 5, 9 etc
So you could just smack on a few sorc lvls on that paladin side.

Crusader//cleric is prolly best though.


Crusader can be found in Tome of Battle.
free maneuvers:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a

[gorfnab]

can somone refer me to that cruesadar class?
never heard of it
Crusader
Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords
pages 8 to 14

[FelixG]

Another vote for crusader/cleric

[AnswersQuestion]

For holy warriors, these are few classes that fluff best
Cleric
Paladin
Crusader
Favored Soul (Is to the cleric what the sorcerer is to the wizard)
.


Thus any of those will make for the holy side of your gestalt. The last two are more "I am a champion of the gods hear me hoar" while the others are more monastic.


I suggest, then, Cleric//Incarnate. Incarnum goes well with everything.

everything.

[Leon]

Cleric - The Divine Toolbox class.

[Lhurgyof]

I've never played a class from Tome of Battle, so I was a little reluctant to try one in such a short-lived game. Are they difficult to get a handle on?

If it's for only a few days or so, I'd say to read up on the Crusader, and stances, and if it's not easy to understand then to just go with any other Full BAB/Divine caster.

Maybe something like a ranger with favored enemy (evil outsider) or something like that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Getting away from Tome of Battle,

Paladin//Fighter sucks. The only thing you get from Fighter is bonus feats. That's it.

Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)//Fighter is in every way superior. You get *actual* spellcasting, plus you really don't loose anything else, since you still get full BAB and D10 HD from Fighter.

If you don't wish to consider Crusader, because you hesitate to crack open the Tome of Battle, give Cleric//Fighter a whirl. It's not uber-optimized, but it's at least decent.

[Greenish]

Why would you want full plate? +X Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, +X Twilight Mithral Buckler, and a decent Dex score is better than having your speed reduced that much for just AC.And then Animated Mithral light shield. Burn a few feats for Shield Ward and Divine Shield, and get shield's AC bonus + Cha mod to AC, touch AC and to resist trips, bull rushes and the like.

[Myth]

Go Cloistered Cleric 13 on one side (get Knowledge Devotion) // Go Paladin 2 / Fighter 4 / Knight 5 / Saint (template +2LA) on the other side. This gets you:

Full Cleric casting, 6 skills / level, Knowledge Deviotion, 3 attacks/round with almost full BAB, Cha to saves, Weapon Focus and extra feats, oobs and gobbles of immunites and stuff from Saint.

It is not as good as CCleric/Crusader nor even something/CCleric/Crusader/RkV but it's flavorful and hard to kill. If you find a good LA race slap it on the second side and reduce fighter or Knight levels. Also take Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered to make use of your Cha mod and add to the Knight's battlefield control.

[drakir_nosslin]

"I am a champion of the gods hear me hoar"

I lol'd, while drinking tea. Now I have tea all over my laptop. It was worth it.

[2xMachina]

War domain clerics get to take the feat: Holy Warrior
Add damage equal to your highest lvl war domain spell to every attack.

[AnswersQuestion]

I lol'd, while drinking tea. Now I have tea all over my laptop. It was worth it.

Exalted has a charm for that.

[Psyren]

Binder 15/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5 makes you an excellent frontliner. You just have to accept that your definition of "holy" might not line up perfectly with everyone else's. (You can still, of course, be LG if you wish.)

You can even take a Paladin dip if you want, for Divine Grace - it won't hurt your binding progression thanks to Improved Binding, and there is Cha synergy.

Binder 3/Paladin 2/KotSS 5/Binder +10 still nets you the amazing Soul Guardian ability (immune to negative levels/ability drain, slippery mind, fear immunity), plus you get Cha to saves, Cha to AC every 5 rounds, all your weapons count as Lawful and Good, detect evil, three pact augments, two bonus binding feats, and you bind like a Binder 20 (4 vestiges at once, up to 8th level, the cap.) All of your abilities work in full plate too (no ASF) and your abilities are supernatural - you ignore SR and don't provoke AoOs.

Dump Wis, and you can do without Int too. 14-16 Cha and 12 Dex should be enough, focus the rest on your Str and Con.

[Mando Knight]

+X Twilight Mithral Buckler
Twilight and Mithral are redundant on a Buckler, which has a -1 ACP and 5% arcane failure chance. If you were looking for a Heavy shield, then you'd want Twilight Mithral, but otherwise you're just wasting cash to get the same thing done twice.

[drakir_nosslin]

Exalted has a charm for that.

Ah, yes. Exalted. Sometimes I think I play the wrong game when I see what you can do with those rules...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Exalted has a charm for that.

And Wizards have a Cantrip for that...

[AnswersQuestion]

And Wizards have a Cantrip for that...

I wonder how that works, since the book states that 10 Motes have about as much power as all the magic in Excalibur, saying solars carry more power in their small essence pool than a nuclear bomb.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I wonder how that works, since the book states that 10 Motes have about as much power as all the magic in Excalibur, saying solars carry more power in their small essence pool than a nuclear bomb.

Well, all I know is that Prestidigitation will take care of coffee stains no problem.

I guess that Excalibur is a particularly low-magic world, since Wizards regularly defecate more reality-bending effects from first level than any Solar could hope to accomplish.