[3.5] Unarmed damage

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

Just a quick question – how high can you get unarmed damage (as in unarmed strike, not natural weapons) without using Monk or Unarmed Swordsage? Assume it’s for a straight Barbarian or Fighter, maybe dipping into PrCs like Shou Disciple, Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries etc.

Just a bit of a theoretical exercise.

Cheers - T

[Admiral Squish]

Oh, I'm sure we can get it pun-pun high if we really try. Muahahaha. *scampers off to check the books*

[Keld Denar]

Um, high. Like, 64d6+. Technically, you could possibly take Tashalatora without a single level of Monk. Do that on a Warforged Chassis with a Battlefist, stack augemented Expansion and Greater Mighty Wallop and Improved Natural Attack, along with 3 levels of FotF and 2 of Warshaper with a Monk's Belt to make up the lost "effective monk levels".

[Urpriest]

Is Superior Unarmed Strike legit? Seems along the same lines as Monk/Unarmed Swordsage, so I could see why you'd reject it.

[HunterOfJello]

Well,


Monk Belt (item) for 5 levels higher
Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB feat) for 4 levels higher


Kalashtar for the race. Add in a Permanent Enlarge Person to make them Large and then put Ectoplasmic Fist (Eberron Campaign Setting) items in all of their body parts. That will have him count as Huge for unarmed damage.

[Saint GoH]

Well,


Monk Belt (item) for 5 levels higher
Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB feat) for 4 levels higher


Kalashtar for the race. Add in a Permanent Enlarge Person to make them Large and then put Ectoplasmic Fist (Eberron Campaign Setting) items in all of their body parts. That will have him count as Huge for unarmed damage.

Improved Natural Attack increases it again to... Gargantuan? Is that right?

[Vistella]

Dont forget Greater Mighty Wallop for an +5 size increase (or +4, cant remember correctly now)

[Saint GoH]

Dont forget Greater Mighty Wallop for an +5 size increase (or +4, cant remember correctly now)

Where doth one find said Greater Mighty Wallop?

For I wish to utterly abuse the snot outta this.

[Thurbane]

Is Superior Unarmed Strike legit? Seems along the same lines as Monk/Unarmed Swordsage, so I could see why you'd reject it.
No, that's fine...it was just those 2 classes I wanted to avoid.

-----

Also, while it is possible to pump damage up high with spells and powers, a base "all day" unarmed damage amount was really more what I was looking for...

Assume it’s for a straight Barbarian or Fighter, maybe dipping into PrCs like Shou Disciple, Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries etc.

[Zaq]

Also, while it is possible to pump damage up high with spells and powers, a base "all day" unarmed damage amount was really more what I was looking for...

Greater Mighty Wallop is an hours/level spell that will last, at a minimum, for five hours. Even when you first get it, two will get you through the day. How "all day" do you need?

[Thurbane]

Greater Mighty Wallop is an hours/level spell that will last, at a minimum, for five hours. Even when you first get it, two will get you through the day. How "all day" do you need?
...all day for a non-caster?

I do see your point, but I was looking more for a figure for a Fighter or Barbarian type, not reliant on spells or similar. Say, a backup for a warrior who finds himself without a weapon, and has to rely on his fists.

[Dusk Eclipse]

.... Goliath Barbaria (sub levels), with improved unarmed strike and superior unarmed strike.... with levels in fist of the forest?

[Draz74]

I'd think a Giant Size-d Wu Jen (naturally with Superior Unarmed Strike and Greater Mighty Wallop) would come out on top.

[Thurbane]

.... Goliath Barbaria (sub levels), with improved unarmed strike and superior unarmed strike.... with levels in fist of the forest?
Maybe throw in some Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries levels...I believe that it gives two boosts to unarmed strike damage.

[dgnslyr]

Fist of the Forest is a great way to get crazy fast Unarmed Strike damage progression. I think it's 1d10 on the third and last level of this PrC. Also, it's great for Barbarians and high-con characters in general, because you get a rage-like ability and CON to AC, which is awesome.

[WinceRind]

Fist of the Forest is a great way to get crazy fast Unarmed Strike damage progression. I think it's 1d10 on the third and last level of this PrC. Also, it's great for Barbarians and high-con characters in general, because you get a rage-like ability and CON to AC, which is awesome.

And a ton of really nasty fluff that will surely contradict and limit a lot of roleplaying choices and ideas...

But, yeah, I guess, otherwise it's pretty good.

[FelixG]

And a ton of really nasty fluff that will surely contradict and limit a lot of roleplaying choices and ideas...

But, yeah, I guess, otherwise it's pretty good.

refluffing is your friend :D

[Darrin]

Um, high. Like, 64d6+. Technically, you could possibly take Tashalatora without a single level of Monk. Do that on a Warforged Chassis with a Battlefist, stack augemented Expansion and Greater Mighty Wallop and Improved Natural Attack, along with 3 levels of FotF and 2 of Warshaper with a Monk's Belt to make up the lost "effective monk levels".

Technically, the battle fist is a slam attack, not an unarmed strike. Unless you have monk levels, in which case... the rules for battle fists get really wonky (you'll need your DM to clarify how it works as an unarmed strike).

King of Smack is usually the gold standard for unloading barefisted whoopass, but I don't recall the specifics if he uses unarmed strikes, claw attacks, or both.

Superior Unarmed Strike gives you basically the same unarmed damage of a small-sized monk, but it scales up by character level (unless you have monk levels, in which case it's monk level +4).

Technically, there's a RAW argument that improved/superior unarmed strike doesn't count as a natural weapon unless you have the monk's version of unarmed strike, which explicitly says it can be enhanced as a natural weapon. The default unarmed strike, improved or otherwise, has no such clause... you have to pull in some examples from other non-core sourcebooks to argue otherwise (Curmudgeon should be along shortly to mention the Fanged Ring). This means if you don't have the monk's IUS, you can't use the Improved Natural Attack feat or spells like greater magic fang to buff your damage. You can get around this with certain classes/PrCs that grant the monk's unarmed strike without monk levels. This allows you to treat your IUS as a natural weapon, but still use Superior Unarmed Strike to scale it up by character level. There may be others, but these are easiest for dipping:

Unarmed Swordsage variant (Tome of Battle). You lose proficiency with light armor, but with a 2-level dip you still get your Wisdom bonus to AC in light armor (ask your DM to houserule this to light and no armor, if possible). Also, even first level maneuvers are 10 times better than anything the monk gets in 20 levels (Still mind? Slow fall? Purity of body? Eat Burning Blade Emerald Razor, you underdressed pack animal!)

Battledancer (Dragon Compendium). Full BAB, and also gives Cha bonus to AC in no armor. Doesn't need to be lawful, so easy to combine with rage.

Shou Disciple (Unapproachable East). Pretty much a "monk in a box", everything you want a monk to do in just five levels. Full BAB, martial flurry, and better bonus feats. Unfortunately, while this sourcebook did get a 3.5 update, it didn't update anything specifically in this PrC, which still mentions 3.0 monk features, and it's not clear if this PrC grants "Flurry of Blows" or assumes you had it before you got into the class.

Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion). Full BAB, Con bonus to AC, and gives two unarmed damage size increases in only 3 levels. Technically by RAW, you get either the damage listed (1d8 or 1d10), or you get one size increase if you already do the listed damage. So the best damage you can get out of FotF is 1d10 -> 2d8. If your damage is already better than 1d10, by RAW FotF doesn't increase it any further. However, Curmudgeon is the only person I've ever seen that argues it should work this way. Everyone else treats a 3-level dip as a two-size-category increase.

To get more size increases:

Improved Natural Attack feat (Monster Manual/SRD). As I mentioned before, some DMs may rule that non-monk unarmed strikes don't count for this. Also, in Pathfinder, one of the designers decided that monks should suck even more, and specifically forbid allowing monks to take this at all because it was "too powerful". I don't recall if this made it into the Pathfinder SRD, or if someone managed to enlighten the designer on the extent of his idiocy.

Shape Soulmeld: Totem Avatar + Open Lesser Chakra: Shoulders (Magic of Incarnum). Size increase that stacks with Improved Natural Attack. Totemists get this chakra bind at 9th level, but non-meldshapers have to wait until ECL 12. If you're using Shape Soulmeld, you also get 1/2 your character level as bonus HP (*not* temp HP), and if you have any essentia to invest, you can get an ehancement bonus to natural armor (+1 per essentia).

Mighty Arms graft (Faiths of Eberron) + Battle Fist (Eberron Campaign Setting). From the Battle Fist description, ECS p. 268: "A warforged monk who uses a battlefist deals increased unarmed damage as though the character were one size larger than actual, and he can add the battlefist's enhancement bonus to his unarmed attack and damage rolls." Assuming a non-warforged monk with the Mighty Arms graft counts, there are a bunch of weird rules conundrums that aren't clear here: Is attacking with the battle fist no longer a slam attack? Can I use it for Flurry of Blows? Is the battle fist a light weapon or one-handed weapon? If I grab the battle fist with my other hand, can I treat it as a two-handed weapon? If I don't attack with the battle fist, like if I just kick/knee/elbow/headbutt, do I still get the enhancement bonus? Can I treat the battle fist as an off-hand weapon for TWF? If I don't use the battle first in an iterative attack, can I still add it as a secondary natural attack with a -5 attack penalty? If I add more magic enhancements to the battle fist, such as flaming/frost/shock, do I get to add that to my other unarmed strikes as well? Can the battle fist hold a weapon/manipulate objects/make somatic gestures?

Size increases, such as enlarge person or expansion. Cloistered Cleric dip + Strength domain can get you enlarge person, along with Knowledge Devotion and another domain/devotion, such as Travel Devotion for 10 rounds of Pounce. Hidden Talent (Expanded Psionics Handbook p. 67) can get you Expansion and 2 PP with only one feat. Person_Man has a handy guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127732) with more details. Note for alter self, including Tattooed Monks with the Chameleon tattoo: There *is* a large-sized humanoid officially in print. Hornhead Saurial, 2 racial HD, LA +2, in the Serpent Kingdoms web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040717a).