View Full Version : [3.5]Need help with fighting a level 10 ninja//monk
I'm beginning a campaign this Sunday. A gestalt campaign! I created a character I had been dying to play with stats, feats, and even a backstory. Then, today, the DM announced that he had begun to make the main characters for the storyline. After a few minutes of questions, he let us know that we would be fighting one of them very early into the campaign. I was enthusiastic.
He told us that the boss would be level 10. I was still fairly excited. We were level 5, right? We'd be able to take him!
And then I found out that this early boss was also gestalt. A monk/ninja, in fact. Maxed hide, Wis to AC, all good saves, etc. The DM went on, and I learned that this ninja/monk was also using his high-powered, high-LA race. It gives +10 to any stat and can be divided up in any way. There is also an obscene amount of natural attacks, etc. I am also assuming that it might have DR.
In essence, our campaign looks like it will be over before it begins. The DM remains certain that we will be able to defeat the ninja.
And thus, I turn to you, playground.
The party(approximately, I don't know for certain.)
Swordsage5//Monk1/Sorcerer4- Ascetic mage with a scythe. Striker/battlefield control(at least, that is the plan). Raven Familiar. Me.
Paladin3/LA+2//Ranger3/LA+2- I don't know too much about this guy other than he is pretty smart and has been playing a lot longer than I have.
Fighter3/LA+2//Ranger3/LA+2- I only very vaguely know him. Playing an angry troll, I believe.
And a fourth member of the party, my friend. He was originally going to play a Wizard//Psion, then a Bard//Psiblade, and now nobody can figure out what he is going to play. Are there any suggestions I should give him? I know he wants to play a bard-type guy.
So, with this type of a party, how could we possibly defeat this DM favored etherial menace? Spells? Strategy? Run away?
Any advice will be infinitely helpful.
What is the general party optimization level? Your character seems to be the most optimized, and still isn't that great. And what are your spells?
Also, I suspect DM fiat to be the solution.
The party(from what I can tell) isn't very optimized. I mean, fighter//ranger? What? Still, the DM(the only way I know the rangers) says that they are very good at optimization. I don't know whether to believe him. My friend isn't very good at optimizing, but plays very intelligently and makes up for the problems that causes.
I'm working on my spells, and I'm thinking:
Level 1:
Mage Armor
Magic Missle
Charm Person
Fist of Stone
Level 2:
Glitterdust
My maneuvers are based around movement and direct damage. I'm planning to pwn people with insightful strike for 1d20+15 damage.:smallbiggrin:
Any suggestions on the spells or optimization?
And believe me, I'm trying to get the DM to tone it down, but for all his storytelling skills...
There's a lot of missing data, but your parties forte looks to be HULK SMASH! while the BBEG's is all the fancy stuff - doing and resisting it. You want to fight him at high noon on a featureless plain if possible. Don't try anything fancy, just grind him down.
I'm worried that if we try to wear him down, the ninja will have us all dead before we manage to take more than a few rounds of his 5d6 sneak attack invisibility.
Perhaps if he was going for my normal AC of 25, we would be okay, but my flat-footed is only 14...:smallfrown:
Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-09, 08:05 PM
As far as your friend, what kind of Bard does he want to play? I might recommend Bard 5//Crusader 5 with Song of the White Raven or whatever the feat is, doing some sort of Lockdown/Crackdown might be beneficial. Give him some way to see invisibility, use Inspire Courage (and maybe some IC optimization) to get around the Ninja//Monk's likely high AC (and maybe a wand of wraithstrike or some other means of attacking his Touch AC), and just hold him in place. If you can swing the feats, I'd recommend EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knock-Down, and Song of the White Raven, but that would require Human and two flaws.
True. You'll need to glitterdust him to stop the invisibility. I wouldn't wager anything on him failing the save, but the save only stops the blinding, not the anti-invis effect.
mootoall
2010-12-09, 08:08 PM
Guess where he is, then glitterdust. Glitterdust glitterdust glitterdust. If he can't hide, he's screwed.
True. You'll need to glitterdust him to stop the invisibility. I wouldn't wager anything on him failing the save, but the save only stops the blinding, not the anti-invis effect.
Guess where he is, then glitterdust. Glitterdust glitterdust glitterdust. If he can't hide, he's screwed.
Would it still be enough to stop the ninja from just going onto the etherial plane and occasionally popping out to strike?
I'm worried about the ninja just one shotting each member of our party. The bruisers have low HD, and I can't see etherial things...
Something I might want to add is that I have stunning fist 2/day. I think we might be able to finish him in one round if I hit him with this and emerald razor.
Just a general optimization note: is snatch arrows worth taking a flaw for?
I don't have the book handy, but he can't attack while ethereal can he? This would seem to prevent +5d6 sudden strike attacks.
Edit: being able to strike ethereal creatures doesn't mean the reverse.
I don't have the book handy, but he can't attack while ethereal can he? This would seem to prevent +5d6 sudden strike attacks.
Edit: being able to strike ethereal creatures doesn't mean the reverse.
Oh! So if I hit him with glitterdust, we have 4 rounds to finish him off? That helps a lot as long as he doesn't start stalling.
But the best part of having a hack-and-slash type DM is that the NPCs don't really, you know, stall.
Starbuck_II
2010-12-09, 10:55 PM
Would it still be enough to stop the ninja from just going onto the etherial plane and occasionally popping out to strike?
I'm worried about the ninja just one shotting each member of our party. The bruisers have low HD, and I can't see etherial things...
Something I might want to add is that I have stunning fist 2/day. I think we might be able to finish him in one round if I hit him with this and emerald razor.
Just a general optimization note: is snatch arrows worth taking a flaw for?
8th level Ninjas can attack while ethereal (but limited times/day). Only a 10th level Ninja can go ethereal.
So he can't be a Monk/Ninja who is 10th level (Unless he is higher level total).
Gavinfoxx
2010-12-09, 10:59 PM
Uh, get flight, and throw a bunch of long range attacks at him from above??
Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-09, 11:00 PM
8th level Ninjas can attack while ethereal (but limited times/day). Only a 10th level Ninja can go ethereal.
So he can't be a Monk/Ninja who is 10th level (Unless he is higher level total).
He's a 10th level Monk//10th level Ninja. It's a gestalt game.
GLitter dust was a good choice. Your best bet is to try to stall him as much as possible while consistantly hurting him. Use shut down spells like Grease and/or a scroll of Web to keep the "I need to be mobile" types still. Entangle is great if you can figure a way of employing it with your party.
Uh, get flight, and throw a bunch of long range attacks at him from above??
I wish.
GLitter dust was a good choice. Your best bet is to try to stall him as much as possible while consistantly hurting him. Use shut down spells like Grease and/or a scroll of Web to keep the "I need to be mobile" types still. Entangle is great if you can figure a way of employing it with your party.
I'll look into a scroll of web or entangle as I have a bit of GP left. I'm thinking we'll probably have some decent range options with our fourth player, no matter what he's playing, and if all else fails I can use magic missile. The ninja probably won't have godlike health, so in an ideal situation in which everyone can land a hit or two, it could work out.
8th level Ninjas can attack while ethereal (but limited times/day). Only a 10th level Ninja can go ethereal.
Awww. If they can attack while ethereal, we're in trouble. Assuming a Wis of 22 or so, that will be 11 rounds per day? It would also be like a get-out-of-jail-free card for webs & glitterdust. All the ninja has to do is teleport out of the material plane for a few seconds and can walk out of the web. With glitterdust, the ninja can just dissapear for 4 rounds... I don't have the material handy, but I'm pretty sure it is something like that. If I blind him for 4 rounds and he takes 2 turns to kill each of us...
we lose.
If we attack for the short amount of time while the ninja is on the material plane(1 second or so) using delayed actions, we might be able to pull something off.
If my familiar(+10 to spot & listen or so) spots or hears him during the night, he might dissapear early, letting us buff & arm ourselves while wasting his rounds...
But it isn't something to bet on.
So, back to spamming glitterdust, I guess?
olentu
2010-12-09, 11:51 PM
i suppose you could look into the transdimensional spell feat or something like that. I am not recalling the exact text but I think that it might help or if I remember incorrectly it will not but it could not hurt to check.
Darrin
2010-12-10, 12:06 AM
Guess where he is, then glitterdust. Glitterdust glitterdust glitterdust. If he can't hide, he's screwed.
While this works quite well, there is a quirk to glitterdust: it outlines invisible creatures and gives you their location, but by RAW doesn't reduce the concealment or 50% miss chance. And if you haven't guessed by the number of "Glittderdust! Glitterdust!" responses by now, it's a common enough tactic that the NPC may have prepared a counter, such as a globe of invulnerability, a dispel magic effect, or a +80 Hide check.
You can negate the concealment completely with a faerie fire effect, such as the spell, Stormfire Ring (4000 GP, MIC p. 206), or Torchbug Paste (25 GP, Complete Scoundrel p. 120). The Stormfire Ring is actually the most fun... it also does 1d6 electricity damage (no save) for five rounds, 5/day. If you're willing (and able) to wait, that's 25d6 damage.
Your opponent might also hide before you can get the glitterdust off, or use decoys/illusions to get you to waste spells. Once he's hidden and got the Darkstalker feat, he can attack by summons, proxies, or other annoying tactics.
However, I think there's another counter to Darkstalker: 3rd level cleric spell helping hand. If the target is within 100', it takes only 1 round for the hand to pinpoint his location. If hidden/invisible, he'd still get total concealment (50% miss chance), but at least you know where to lob your glitterdusts. It's an evocation, not a divination, so I think it even works against mind blank, sequester, and imprisonment.
tyckspoon
2010-12-10, 12:08 AM
Attacking from etherealness will burn his Ki double-time- it takes 1 to use Ghost Step and then 1 more to use Ghost Strike to make the attack- as well as chewing into his actions; Swift to Ghost Step and then Move to Ghost Strike, as well as the Standard to make an attack, which means he isn't Full Attacking, which means he isn't Flurrying, which means, if he is attempting this tactic, at least you can be pretty certain you'll only have to eat one Sudden Strike a turn. For what that's worth.
In more useful suggestions: Get some means of concealment. You can't make precision attacks against targets that have concealment from you, no matter how little it is. So grab a scroll of Darkness, cast it on a rock, and carry it around. The 20% miss chance will benefit your enemy as well, but you'll be throwing a much greater weight of attacks than he'll be putting back, and it'll neuter his primary damage source.
Grelna the Blue
2010-12-10, 01:55 AM
Suggest the spell See Invisible for your buddy, so he can point out the area for you to Glitterdust . Then hit this guy with a few of your Magic Missile spells (already automatically transdimensional without a feat) modified with the feat Fell Drain, from Libris Mortis with some metamagic reduction cheesiness (it's only a +2 adjustment anyway).
Only a few of those ought to soften him up enough to be very little threat.
Escheton
2010-12-10, 02:01 AM
just use the dragonkiller pumped with true strike so you don't miss.
3d6 dex dmg once or twice will put a halt to his kung fu
cast blink first if he is being annoying with etherealness.
Ernir
2010-12-10, 02:06 AM
Readied actions will be your friend.
FelixG
2010-12-10, 06:03 AM
800 GP (less if you make it) for a scroll of dimensional anchor.
Use that and watch as the ninjas shtick is tossed out the window with the addition of webbing/tanglefoot bag and glitterdust
:smallbiggrin:
Why is your GM telling you this? /puzzled.
Arkeht
2010-12-10, 06:54 AM
True strike/ Ray of Exhaustion
He will have a high ac so true strike will land you an almost guaranteed hit,
Ray of Exhaustion if successful will give -6 to str. and dex. scores and will reduce him to half movement. If he passes his save it will make him fatigued in which case you can just repeat the process since the 2nd go will automatically make him exhausted.
It would mean forgoing Glitterdust until level 5 though which would also be extremely useful.
EDIT: also True Strike ignores the effect of concealment
Attacking from etherealness will burn his Ki double-time- it takes 1 to use Ghost Step and then 1 more to use Ghost Strike to make the attack- as well as chewing into his actions; Swift to Ghost Step and then Move to Ghost Strike, as well as the Standard to make an attack, which means he isn't Full Attacking, which means he isn't Flurrying, which means, if he is attempting this tactic, at least you can be pretty certain you'll only have to eat one Sudden Strike a turn. For what that's worth.
In more useful suggestions: Get some means of concealment. You can't make precision attacks against targets that have concealment from you, no matter how little it is. So grab a scroll of Darkness, cast it on a rock, and carry it around. The 20% miss chance will benefit your enemy as well, but you'll be throwing a much greater weight of attacks than he'll be putting back, and it'll neuter his primary damage source.
I have a beautifully cheesy way to keep him from sudden striking- child of shadows stance. As long as I keep moving, I have concealment. I'm also glad to hear that he'll be burning up his ki so quickly.
Why is your GM telling you this? /puzzled.
Because he can. That's the beauty of having a DM who can't keep his mouth shut. He wants to make sure that we appreciate getting killed. I'm sure he enjoys the resultant paranoia as well.
As far as your friend, what kind of Bard does he want to play? I might recommend Bard 5//Crusader 5 with Song of the White Raven or whatever the feat is, doing some sort of Lockdown/Crackdown might be beneficial. Give him some way to see invisibility, use Inspire Courage (and maybe some IC optimization) to get around the Ninja//Monk's likely high AC (and maybe a wand of wraithstrike or some other means of attacking his Touch AC), and just hold him in place. If you can swing the feats, I'd recommend EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knock-Down, and Song of the White Raven, but that would require Human and two flaws.
He likes this idea. Thanks a lot!
Jack_Simth
2010-12-10, 10:41 PM
The party(approximately, I don't know for certain.)
Swordsage5//Monk1/Sorcerer4- Ascetic mage with a scythe. Striker/battlefield control(at least, that is the plan). Raven Familiar. Me.
... what are you getting from Monk that you don't get from Swordsage? I'd be heavily inclined to suggest Swordsage-5//Sorcerer-5, unless you have specific reason not to.
Paladin3/LA+2//Ranger3/LA+2- I don't know too much about this guy other than he is pretty smart and has been playing a lot longer than I have.
Fighter3/LA+2//Ranger3/LA+2- I only very vaguely know him. Playing an angry troll, I believe.
And a fourth member of the party, my friend. He was originally going to play a Wizard//Psion, then a Bard//Psiblade, and now nobody can figure out what he is going to play. Are there any suggestions I should give him? I know he wants to play a bard-type guy.
You need a healer, and a trapmonkey, and he wants to play a Jack of All Trades and/or buffer?
That actually works out quite well.
Cleric//Ninja. Cleric gives Will, Fort, and Full Casting (including healing, which you're kinda short on). Ninja gives trapmonkey-stuff, and Wis-based powers.
So, with this type of a party, how could we possibly defeat this DM favored etherial menace? Spells? Strategy? Run away?
Any advice will be infinitely helpful.
Let's see....
1) You need to negate the Invisibility. FAST. Otherwise, he's got 1d10+Strength+5d6 Sudden Strike on a +7/+7/+2 attack routine (with other boosts); he's liable to instagib someone the first time he gets a full attack, and it'll be hard to avoid him getting the drop on you (although it's possible). Glitterdust (arcane) or Invisibility Purge (Divine) are your friends, as they'll get rid of the Sudden Strike. Oh yes, and that's assuming your opponent is using a medium-sized race, and has no strength bonus - not going to happen.
2) You need to limit his ability to make a full attack. Even if you do get rid of the Sudden Strike, there's liable to be a lot of damage in there regardless. Get ranged - soaking one AoO and one Charge is likely to be noticeably better than soaking a full attack. And if you spread out a bit, he's not going to be able to stop archers getting full attacks in on him (not that you'll have many attacks at 5th, so I suppose it really doesn't matter that much, does it?)
3) Knowledge Checks. Roll them, love them, figure out what his primary drawback is. It might be useful (but probably won't).
Starbuck_II
2010-12-10, 10:44 PM
... what are you getting from Monk that you don't get from Swordsage? I'd be heavily inclined to suggest Swordsage-5//Sorcerer-5, unless you have specific reason not to.
Acetic Mage doesn't work with Swordsage (since made before ToB). He gets to add Sorceror level to Monk for Monk AC bonus from level (and use Cha not Wis).
So he gets Wis (Swordsage) while in light armor
Or Cha (Monk) +1/5 levels to AC out of armor. Also can swift action, sacrifice a spell for hit/damage bonus.
Some DMs houserule that Swordsage works out of armor as well. Which would stack them (since it is now Cha + Wis instead of Wis twice).
Jack_Simth
2010-12-10, 10:51 PM
Acetic Mage doesn't work with Swordsage (since made before ToB).
Actually, it does - it just takes an extra feat (Improved Unarmed Strike). You might need the Unarmed Swordsage variant, but the Requirement line is: "Improved Unarmed Strike, ability to spontaneously cast 2nd-level arcane spells."
The bit on the AC is "If you would normally be allowed to add your Wisdom bonus to AC (such as for a unarmored, unencumbered monk)..."
OK, you might lose out on one point of AC, based on the "If you have levels in sorcerer and monk, those levels stack for the purpose of determining your AC bonus. " line, but seriously - that's one point of AC at your level, and caps off at 4 points of AC at 20th. Use the extra spell known to cast Shield if it bothers you.
Tvtyrant
2010-12-10, 11:52 PM
Hmmmm.... Have you considered See Invisibility and a save-or-suck like Hypnotic Pattern? You would need to roll high but you have a good chance of getting ten (2d4+4) and fascinating him. Obviously Glitterdust works well too, or Web. Basically See Invisibility isn't going to inform the guy he has been seen.
You could also use Fog Cloud, which offers concealment. Even though it lowers everyone's chance of hitting it removes sneak attack from the battle. Also good is Hideous Laughter or Obscuring Mist (which is the fog at a lower level). Essentially you want to lock him down so the team can deliver a beatdown.
Escheton
2010-12-11, 12:02 AM
You could always harpoon the bastard with trailing rope a few times.
You can't move much and gets lotta dmg. +1 ghost touch harpoon, or apply some ghost shellec or whatever if you expect etherealness.
Jack_Simth
2010-12-11, 12:16 AM
Hmmmm.... Have you considered See Invisibility and a save-or-suck like Hypnotic Pattern? You would need to roll high but you have a good chance of getting ten (2d4+4) and fascinating him. Obviously Glitterdust works well too, or Web. Basically See Invisibility isn't going to inform the guy he has been seen.
You could also use Fog Cloud, which offers concealment. Even though it lowers everyone's chance of hitting it removes sneak attack from the battle. Also good is Hideous Laughter or Obscuring Mist (which is the fog at a lower level). Essentially you want to lock him down so the team can deliver a beatdown.
... he's a fifth level whatever attacking a tenth level Monk//Ninja. Saves as a tenth level Monk. That's a +7 save bonus to overcome before stats/items/racial abilities. Is it possible to land a save-or-lose? Yes. Is it a high probability event? No.
However, I DO recommend hitting the guy with a Glitterdust as soon as possible - not for the blindness, but for the invisibility & Hide counter.
Let's see....
1) You need to negate the Invisibility. FAST. Otherwise, he's got 1d10+Strength+5d6 Sudden Strike on a +7/+7/+2 attack routine (with other boosts); he's liable to instagib someone the first time he gets a full attack, and it'll be hard to avoid him getting the drop on you (although it's possible). Glitterdust (arcane) or Invisibility Purge (Divine) are your friends, as they'll get rid of the Sudden Strike. Oh yes, and that's assuming your opponent is using a medium-sized race, and has no strength bonus - not going to happen.
2) You need to limit his ability to make a full attack. Even if you do get rid of the Sudden Strike, there's liable to be a lot of damage in there regardless. Get ranged - soaking one AoO and one Charge is likely to be noticeably better than soaking a full attack. And if you spread out a bit, he's not going to be able to stop archers getting full attacks in on him (not that you'll have many attacks at 5th, so I suppose it really doesn't matter that much, does it?)
3) Knowledge Checks. Roll them, love them, figure out what his primary drawback is. It might be useful (but probably won't).
1) Fortunately, he only has 5 rounds where he can go invisible & ghost touch at once, and it takes a full action. As long as we keep moving, he won't be able to use that combo. With normal invisibility, there is always glitterdust. After that, as long as there are more than two of us left, we should be able to finish him off. Well, I hope.
2)He probably won't be able to make a full attack unless he only uses normal invisibility and even then only if he was already standing next to the person, at which point we will all be screaming, "RUN AWAY!!"
Ranged isn't much of an option because the tanks only want to tank- archery is boring, apparently- and because my skirmishing build has no ranged ability whatever. My friend's build(almost certainly bard) is looking like the previously suggested build with the spiked chain and all.
And since the DM refuses to use a grid, range is difficult and slows down the game(he usually takes out a sheet of paper, draws a few dots, and writes the approximate distance between each character. As I said, very hack-and-slash DM'ing style.)
3)Knowledge? I never considered that before. What weaknesses would we learn about(potentially)? I can't think of any advice we could other than the DM smiling telling us to jump off a cliff. He has apparently decided that it is a good idea to kill off players for no reason in the early game...:smallfrown:
Jack_Simth
2010-12-11, 05:13 PM
1) Fortunately, he only has 5 rounds where he can go invisible & ghost touch at once, and it takes a full action. As long as we keep moving, he won't be able to use that combo. With normal invisibility, there is always glitterdust. After that, as long as there are more than two of us left, we should be able to finish him off. Well, I hope.
He gets UMD as a class skill, and has NPC wealth sufficient to get a wand of Greater Invisibility. Unless you've got his build right in front of you, you can't toss the possibility out out of hand. And do note that regular See Invisibility and Glitterdust will work against a Ninja's Ghost Step (as it's the invisibility state, unless he hops all the way to the Ethereal where he has problems striking at you ... but he can still strike from there, possibly well enough to deliver a CdG in your sleep) - which will keep most of the Sudden Strike from landing.
2)He probably won't be able to make a full attack unless he only uses normal invisibilityWhich is a 300 gp potion... and he's 10th. Then he uses the swift action to stay invisible once he's right up against you.
and even then only if he was already standing next to the person, at which point we will all be screaming, "RUN AWAY!!"
After at least one party member (possibly two or more, depending on a few thigns) has been insta-gibbed by a few solid blows with a 5d6 Sudden Strike on top of them.
Ranged isn't much of an option because the tanks only want to tank- archery is boring, apparently- and because my skirmishing build has no ranged ability whatever.
That's a dangerous liability. What do you do against an Air Memphit with one level of Fighter and a bow in open terrain?
My friend's build(almost certainly bard) is looking like the previously suggested build with the spiked chain and all.
And since the DM refuses to use a grid, range is difficult and slows down the game(he usually takes out a sheet of paper, draws a few dots, and writes the approximate distance between each character. As I said, very hack-and-slash DM'ing style.)
Ask him to break out a battle mat for this one. You'll need to be able to use tactics to live.
3)Knowledge? I never considered that before. What weaknesses would we learn about(potentially)? I can't think of any advice we could other than the DM smiling telling us to jump off a cliff. He has apparently decided that it is a good idea to kill off players for no reason in the early game...:smallfrown:Racial Energy resistances, for one. Immunity to fire comes with Vulnerability to cold (and vice-versa). He may or may not be immune to acid, paralysis, Slow, Tanglefoot bags, et cetera. These are things that are useful to know.
Hey... I am the friend who is thinking of going Bard... However, I am interested by that Ninja//Cleric... :smalltongue:
He gets UMD as a class skill, and has NPC wealth sufficient to get a wand of Greater Invisibility. Unless you've got his build right in front of you, you can't toss the possibility out out of hand. And do note that regular See Invisibility and Glitterdust will work against a Ninja's Ghost Step (as it's the invisibility state, unless he hops all the way to the Ethereal where he has problems striking at you ... but he can still strike from there, possibly well enough to deliver a CdG in your sleep) - which will keep most of the Sudden Strike from landing.
Which is a 300 gp potion... and he's 10th. Then he uses the swift action to stay invisible once he's right up against you.
After at least one party member (possibly two or more, depending on a few thigns) has been insta-gibbed by a few solid blows with a 5d6 Sudden Strike on top of them.
That's a dangerous liability. What do you do against an Air Memphit with one level of Fighter and a bow in open terrain?
Ask him to break out a battle mat for this one. You'll need to be able to use tactics to live.
Racial Energy resistances, for one. Immunity to fire comes with Vulnerability to cold (and vice-versa). He may or may not be immune to acid, paralysis, Slow, Tanglefoot bags, et cetera. These are things that are useful to know.
A few things to point out here...
First, our DM generally does NOT do potions. :smallmad: He had one campaign where we got "three potions where you drink them and get healed for 10 Hp" That's about as in depth as he gets.
Second, The knowledge check? yeah, no. Our DM does not care about resistances most of the time. At all. Ever. It is... ehh. Also, I think his "Uber race" as he calls it has immunity to most things, however these might be added as we think of them, too. And then he home rules, saying that "Oh hey... Monk is cool, and in real life i have heard this, so... a monk doesn't have to really sleep too much... or eat" oh, and that is another thing. No rations are ever needed. Also, no penalties for donning armor rapidly. "Hack and slash favoring much?" :smallfurious:
So yeah... Most of this is all hinging on having a very... questionable DM.
Last question. Can anyone help me out some with how I would build that ninja cleric?
Another question... How would Ninja//Druid do?
Wisdom to AC
Full saves
Ok BAB
Spells
Ki Power
Sudden strike
If I wanted to break everything... I could add in VoP and just piss people off... :smallbiggrin:
Would I be able to use Ki powers while wild-shaping? I so, this would be... Nuts.
Tvtyrant
2010-12-11, 08:12 PM
I actually like the Druid/Ninja, gives you a lot of hiding abilities and tracking abilities. Also good would be a Psionist/wizard.
If you go Druid remember to find some blindsense animals to allow you to attack the enemies ninja when he is invisible.
Jack_Simth
2010-12-11, 08:20 PM
Another question... How would Ninja//Druid do?
Wisdom to AC
Full saves
Ok BAB
Spells
Ki Power
Sudden strike
If I wanted to break everything... I could add in VoP and just piss people off... :smallbiggrin:
Would I be able to use Ki powers while wild-shaping? I so, this would be... Nuts.
Oh, the Vow of Poverty Druid//Ninja is rather strong. Wildshape into something with Pounce and many natural attacks (Like one of the cats, or one of the dinosaurs), use Swift-Action invisibility, and hit someone for absurd amounts of damage. Works quite well. In this specific case, a Dire Bat Animal Companion gets Blindsense, and where it's attacking lets you know where to drop a Faerie Fire.
But the level of party optimization I saw didn't suggest that it'd be a good idea.
I actually like the Druid/Ninja, gives you a lot of hiding abilities and tracking abilities. Also good would be a Psionist/wizard.The Psion//Wizard is less strong that you might think, due to the action economy. It's still far from bad, but it's less strong than you might think.
Flickerdart
2010-12-11, 08:54 PM
The Psion//Wizard is less strong that you might think, due to the action economy. It's still far from bad, but it's less strong than you might think.
Psions scoff at your action economy. They have even more ways than the Wizard of breaking it into tiny pieces.
Jack_Simth
2010-12-11, 09:18 PM
Psions scoff at your action economy. They have even more ways than the Wizard of breaking it into tiny pieces.
Depends a bit on level and cheese tolerance. With enough cheese, they can get literally infinite actions, shoot lasers at opponents from within a bubble of Force, and not run out of power points (ever). In which case, something with more passive abilities would go better on the Wizard side anyway.
But the default paradigm is standard/move/swift - at which point, the combination isn't as useful as you think.
Flickerdart
2010-12-11, 09:26 PM
Schism is cheese?
Oh, the Vow of Poverty Druid//Ninja is rather strong. Wildshape into something with Pounce and many natural attacks (Like one of the cats, or one of the dinosaurs), use Swift-Action invisibility, and hit someone for absurd amounts of damage. Works quite well. In this specific case, a Dire Bat Animal Companion gets Blindsense, and where it's attacking lets you know where to drop a Faerie Fire.
But the level of party optimization I saw didn't suggest that it'd be a good idea.
What? Respecting the balance of the party?
Yeah. Right. The only way to actually feel fulfilled in a game like this is to make the DM's favored NPC die in beautifully entertaining ways. Or at least as many insignificant NPCs as you possibly can...
Or not. But really, when you have a fighter//ranger with +2 or 3 LA, ANYTHING unbalances the optimization of the party.
That's a dangerous liability. What do you do against an Air Memphit with one level of Fighter and a bow in open terrain?
We get creative...
But I just found out that the paladin might go into range specialization, at which point our team will no longer completely fail.
If I feel the urge, at my next Swordsage level I can take some other maneuvers and have a ranged attack(albeit with a 1 full round recharge.)
Of course, to do this, the DM would have to be able to use creative strategy... GRRRRRRR. He's good with the story and has good ideas in general... but tactics... he just doesn't... it...fighter... GWAR.
Jack_Simth
2010-12-11, 10:41 PM
Schism is cheese?
If you've found a way to get it and use it effectively at 5th, where the OP is starting, very much so.
If you're at a level where it's a reasonable power, and you're not doing any other action-breaking things, it's a stronger power than many, but not overly bad unless your DM doesn't know how to optimize at all.
If you and your Fissioned Duplicate are both Schism'd up, there's a very likely a problem that needs to be dealt with.
If you're sharing your Schism via Affinity Field while you repeat-manifest an augmented Synchronicity (Complete Psionic), have three 6th level Followers pumping Bestow Power into you (shared through the Affinity Field), and have your Fissioned duplicate (or your Cohort) using the resulting action and power point explosion to manifest Burrowing Power Crystal Shards through the Telekinetic Sphere protecting you all, then your character needs a falling cow to the head rather badly.
What? Respecting the balance of the party?
Yeah. Right. The only way to actually feel fulfilled in a game like this is to make the DM's favored NPC die in beautifully entertaining ways. Or at least as many insignificant NPCs as you possibly can...
Or not. But really, when you have a fighter//ranger with +2 or 3 LA, ANYTHING unbalances the optimization of the party.
Eh, maybe. But after you've gone over how to make pun-pun work, you stop worrying about the most optimal character, and start looking at what will make things fun.
We get creative...
But I just found out that the paladin might go into range specialization, at which point our team will no longer completely fail.
If I feel the urge, at my next Swordsage level I can take some other maneuvers and have a ranged attack(albeit with a 1 full round recharge.)
Of course, to do this, the DM would have to be able to use creative strategy... GRRRRRRR. He's good with the story and has good ideas in general... but tactics... he just doesn't... it...fighter... GWAR.
K. As long as you're aware of the dangerous liability, and have something of a plan for it.
Strife Warzeal
2010-12-11, 10:54 PM
That Druid//Ninja sounds like something I want to use in a gestalt game (when I can find one). Any tips for it? Race, feats etc.?
Jack_Simth
2010-12-11, 11:15 PM
That Druid//Ninja sounds like something I want to use in a gestalt game (when I can find one). Any tips for it? Race, feats etc.?
Well, a couple of things...
1) It takes off at 5th (Wildshape), and reaches Cruising altitude at 6th (Natural Spell). Before then, it's normal Druid or Ninja stuff, for the most part.
2) It's hard to goof the build significantly unless you're trying. Really, it is. Race just barely matters - you'll want to avoid anything with a Con penalty, you want mental stat boosts over physical ones, and Darkvision is a plus - but you pretty much have to by trying to mess up the build. Stat priorities are Wis > Con > Int > rest. If you can sell your DM on the Anthropomorphic Bat (Savage Species), then you're golden.
3) Vow of Poverty is not optimal for it... however, it seriously cuts down on the paperwork (what does, and does not, operate in Wildshape), and so is a good thing ... unless you can't convince your DM to make an exception to the RAW issue that a Vow of Poverty character isn't permitted to have the *no cost* Druid Divine focus.
4) For real-time play (vs. Play-by-post), make sure to pre-stat several forms, to avoid bogging down gameplay. You want a 'stealth' form (e.g., a rat, cat, bat, or similar), a combat form (something with Pounce - a (Dire) Lion, Dire Tiger, Leopard, Deinonychus, Megaraptor, or similar - that's a Core listing, by the way), and a 'Social' form (Something that will go without comment in a city - a dog, a riding dog, a horse, show-bird, or similar).
5) Multiattack is very useful, as is Improved Multiattack and Improved Natural Attack (Claws). Really, though, if you take Natural Spell at 6th, you could take Skill Focus (Craft(Flower Arrangements)) for your other feats if you wanted, and you'd STILL rock.
Strife Warzeal
2010-12-11, 11:19 PM
Well, a couple of things...
1) It takes off at 5th (Wildshape), and reaches Cruising altitude at 6th (Natural Spell). Before then, it's normal Druid or Ninja stuff, for the most part.
2) It's hard to goof the build significantly unless you're trying. Really, it is. Race just barely matters - you'll want to avoid anything with a Con penalty, you want mental stat boosts over physical ones, and Darkvision is a plus - but you pretty much have to by trying to mess up the build. Stat priorities are Wis > Con > Int > rest. If you can sell your DM on the Anthropomorphic Bat (Savage Species), then you're golden.
3) Vow of Poverty is not optimal for it... however, it seriously cuts down on the paperwork (what does, and does not, operate in Wildshape), and so is a good thing ... unless you can't convince your DM to make an exception to the RAW issue that a Vow of Poverty character isn't permitted to have the *no cost* Druid Divine focus.
4) For real-time play (vs. Play-by-post), make sure to pre-stat several forms, to avoid bogging down gameplay. You want a 'stealth' form (e.g., a rat, cat, bat, or similar), a combat form (something with Pounce - a (Dire) Lion, Dire Tiger, Leopard, Deinonychus, Megaraptor, or similar - that's a Core listing, by the way), and a 'Social' form (Something that will go without comment in a city - a dog, a riding dog, a horse, show-bird, or similar).
5) Multiattack is very useful, as is Improved Multiattack and Improved Natural Attack (Claws). Really, though, if you take Natural Spell at 6th, you could take Skill Focus (Craft(Flower Arrangements)) for your other feats if you wanted, and you'd STILL rock.
Thank you, and the bolded part had me laughing till I couldn't breathe.
term1nally s1ck
2010-12-11, 11:27 PM
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868802/Druid_Handbook_revived
The Ninja will provide bonus abilities and tricks, but you'd focus on the druid stuff for most of it.
Jack_Simth
2010-12-11, 11:51 PM
Thank you, and the bolded part had me laughing till I couldn't breathe.
You're welcome. The really funny bit is that I'm dead serious about it.
Oh, and one thing I forgot:
If you are going the Vow of Poverty route, consider picking up Intuitive Attack (Book of Exalted Deeds) as one of your Bonus Exalted feats. Wis to attacks, when you're pushing Wis fairly heavily anyway.
Indeed... However, you could delay your level three feat and take natural spell at fifth... :smalltongue:
And from there... BROKEN!!!! HURRAY! Also, If you are going into this and want one form that covers most of it, go with leopard. Good combat, Good AC (With VoP, completely broken), good stealth, and okay speed. Also, You can jump on people and rape- I mean... Rake them till they die. :smallbiggrin:
term1nally s1ck
2010-12-12, 12:40 AM
Fleshraker does all that and has poison to go with it.
K. As long as you're aware of the dangerous liability, and have something of a plan for it.
I just remembered that I do have magic missile(damage) and glitterdust(how could any of us forget after the last page). But yeah. Still not completely useful. I'll look to make up for that at the next level.
I cannot find any templates for the Fleshraker... Are you sure it is under the "animal" subclass? If it isn't, no wildshape.
It should be noted that you will actually be substantially better w/o VoP if you have access to the MIC, and are a reasonably good optimizer. Monk's belt + other items w/ Wilding Clasps is good times.
term1nally s1ck
2010-12-12, 11:47 AM
MMIII, It's a medium animal.
Jack_Simth
2010-12-12, 01:24 PM
I cannot find any templates for the Fleshraker... Are you sure it is under the "animal" subclass? If it isn't, no wildshape.
It's not a template. As term1nally s1ck noted, it's in the Monster Manual III (page 40, specifically). Crazy-broken for a Druid, especially if you combine it with the Venomfire spell (Serpant Kingdoms - a Faerun-specific book - adds 1d6/level acid damage to the natural attacks of any critter that produces poison - which the Fleshraker does. Lasts 1 hour/level, and is a 3rd level spell.
So if you're a Druid//Ninja-6, in the shape of a Fleshraker Dinosaur, with Venomfire cast on yourself, you use Swift-action invisibility, Pounce on someone, attack them five times, deal 3d6 sudden strike on each attack that lands (in addition to the base damage of the attacks), possibly get a free trip attempt on them, a free grapple attempt, and a free pin attempt. And oh yes: Three of those five attacks also deal 6d6 acid damage. Plus a weak poison poison itself, (1d6 Dex primary and secondary, DC 14) on the three attacks with the Acid damage.
And as it's a Medium critter, it can go... pretty much anywhere you'd expect a human to be able to go.
It's a nasty, broken form. And if you really want someone to die, combine it with one of the Bit of the WereX spells (Spell Compendium), which technically stack with Wildshape.
Flickerdart
2010-12-12, 10:37 PM
I bumped into an interesting spell in the Spell Compendium that might help you. Corpse candle is a 3rd level wizard/sorcerer spell that allows you to reveal ethereal and invisible creatures in a 5ft radius around the candle. The candle also moves at 50ft per round, so you can chase the ninja around with it.
Thanks all, we at least survived the encounter. The DM decided that the ninja and his party(he somehow had a party with him, too... ARGH) were to be recurring characters and repeatedly referred to them as "us". Well, whatever. Thanks again.
EHHHHHHH. THAT WAS BS. TOTAL... BS. Wow... Add to the stupidity that my die hated me. Rolled VERY few numbers above 10. NOT FUN. And actually had most under 6. GAHHH. ADD IN BAD DM-ING AND IT WAS... GAHH.
Gavinfoxx
2010-12-13, 09:34 PM
So... what happened? Can we get a detailed description of what went down, what the DM did, what the players did, what the characters and party did?
I don't have a lot of time right now... Perhaps a little later. Mostly, the DM only offered one course of action, the fighter started tons of random fights by attacking anything that moved, out party at ecl 5 gestalt fought a CR 14 encounter, we almost died, he decided that us dieing would be boring, so he stepped in and "Saved the day" Oh hurray. :smallannoyed:
I'll give a slightly less... *cough* angry explaination in the four minutes I have...
We were told by a giant titan lady to go through a cave or she'd kill us. Sensing railroading, we all agreed. It isn't usually much fun to be squished. We reached the cave(containing an ancient monastary.) A goblin looked out of the doorframe, so our int 9 fighter decided to shoot it. It died. Badly. Another goblin looked out, apparently not learning a lesson. Our paladin decided to shoot that one as well. Sway and I looked on in horror. A few seconds later, we were left with two dead goblins and a menacing looking doorway. The fighter and paladin enter and are attacked by goblins. As soon as we look to be about to win, goblins drop from the ceilings. Soon, we're fighting 42 goblins in a narrow tunnel. Eventually, the fighter collapses the entrance and we're trapped inside.
We finish off the remaining goblins after a long debate about what we can see and what we can't, the basics of spellcasting, and the duration on the shield spell. An illusion appears and the DM tells us that it's "probably not an ambush."
We follow the illusion lady until we reach a door. The fighter opens the door. It's an ambush. What.
Part II coming soon to a forum near you.
Next time... I swear, I am going to boost hide and move silently, shoot off a concealing spell, and just sit and hide while our big Hack and slash people get mugged by stuff. And then just leave, not caring about what the titan lady might do, and go life a happy life of looting, stealing, hiding, and less randomly railroaded dungeon crawls. :smallannoyed:
Hmmmmm...
So, on that note, I would like to put in my link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9964420#post9964420) for some advice about the hideing/Stabing/Stealing types
Part II:
A ball of fire comes rolling down the 10-10 corridor. We all save and it only deals 1d6 damage. We see a wizard fleeing into this brightly lit room. The fighter summons a wolf from his ranger spell list and sends it off into the room. It spots the mage and claws her, dealing a bit of damage.
After this, the fighter charges in and is immediately covered in oil by a barbarian perched above the door. The barbarian takes out flint and steel.
After a bit of a skirmish, the party is inside the room. The barbarian never got a chance to start our fighter on fire, so we feel okay about fighting the mage, hexblade, and mounted barbarian inside. Then a hand appears out of nowhere and tries to grab the flint and steel. The fighter decides to attack it and the DM says that he must make a sunder check. He rolls high. Very high. The hand falls off. The DM shrugs and tells us he didn't want the ninja involved yet, but...
The ninja continues to burn ki which the DM isn't keeping track of, we maim the mounted guy's horse, and we all take a bit of damage. Just as everything is looking like it will be all right, the fighter gets sudden striked and finds himself at -8. The DM senses trouble and has the other side offer us a truce. We sigh and agree.
Bleh. A fun campaign so far, but definitely not without its flaws.
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