Elan's Happy Ending in Doubt?

[Sinfonian]

Honestly, I apologize if this has already been discussed, but the search function didn't show anything. This could be a topic already well discussed, if so, I'm sorry for being unoriginal. Additionally, this may well fall under the category of epileptic tree speculation.

I took a fresh look at #763 today and had a stark realization based on something that Tarquin said:

"The end of what, Son? The story? There is no end, there's just the point where storytellers stop talking."

After a moment of looking at this with fresh eyes, it occurred to me that this could be foreshadowing the debunking of one of the things most commonly held by the community: that nothing too bad could happen to Elan because he has been guaranteed a happy ending.

For those that don't want to look up the prophecy themselves:
The question he asked the Oracle was "Will this story have a happy ending?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html). The response was "Yes-for you, at least."

Tarquin's saying might indicate that it is entirely possible that Elan doesn't have the kind of plot armor that many people seem to believe him to have. For example, it is commonly held that nothing bad could happen to Haley because that would spoil Elan's guaranteed happy ending. This might well not be the case, so long as the story told by those later (which could be the Oracle's interpretation of "this story") stops at a place where Elan does seem triumphant.

I personally hope this isn't the case, but it might well fit with the way in which prophecy in the comic has worked in the past, i.e. never being straightforward. It seems like it might be a complication that the Giant may be setting up.

What say you, forumgoers? Do I just need to amp up the crazy pills, or might there be something to this?

[Dancing_Fox]

Well, while I like your idea that we could take Tarquin's advice, and apply it to Elan's timeline to define when his happy ending is, and cut the story there.

I just don't see that the ending of Elan's story should be any different to that of the end of the main story and the OotS. That just wouldn't seem to make narrative sense.

Agreed, he could die earlier, be fine with the circumstances under which that happend, and go to the happy, happy place.
Or he could go through trials and tribulations after the end of the main OotS story and finally, thirty years later, get his happy ending.

So can't discount it on logical terms.

It is more plausible though that he gets his happy ending at the end of the main story - if the common theory is true that the Oracle tells the truth.

Which doesn't of course prevent all kinds of very bad things from happening in the meantime. He was promised a happy ENDING. Not a happy path to the ending.

[Porthos]

If faced with a choice between taking Tarquin's word or the Oracle's word about the fate of a character, I think I'll take the safe bet and put my money on the founder of Lickmyorangeballshalfling. :smalltongue:

[Sinfonian]

Perhaps I expressed myself poorly.

I think that these new words of Tarquin give us a new way of thinking about the Oracle's prophecy. More specifically, about looking at the way different outcomes can be interpreted as a story, rather than as events themselves.

I am simply saying that Tarquin gives us a new framework through which to potentially look at Elan's promised happy ending and see that it might not be what we all have envisioned. I think that it would be unusual for the kobold to have given what seems to be a relatively simple answer to the question asked, as it seems that he did.

[eggynack]

I agree, especially given Rich's statement in the commentary that the Elan's prophecy won't turn out perfectly well.

[Porthos]

Perhaps I expressed myself poorly.

I think that these new words of Tarquin give us a new way of thinking about the Oracle's prophecy. More specifically, about looking at the way different outcomes can be interpreted as a story, rather than as events themselves.

I am simply saying that Tarquin gives us a new framework through which to potentially look at Elan's promised happy ending and see that it might not be what we all have envisioned. I think that it would be unusual for the kobold to have given what seems to be a relatively simple answer to the question asked, as it seems that he did.

The thing is, we already had the potential for subverting Elan's Prophecy when Durkon reacted with happiness over his fate. Rich even explicitly pointed out in commentary that he was potentially putting in a bit of doubt over that by showcasing Durkon's reactions. After all, if Durkon can be happy over arriving at his homelands dead, then maybe Elan will view a Happy Ending in some sort of unforeseen (by dramatic) way.

But the thing is, for all of the ways that Rich is twistier than a twisty thing full of twists from twistyvania, he still tends to play The Big Picture straight. More often than not. Miko imploded under the weight of her character flaws. Roy is overcoming his. Belkar got punished for his misdeeds and V (after learning a very harsh lesson) is trying to work on his. Elan and Haley have gotten together, and the plot is slowly but inexorably moving toward a resolution.

Yes, it is possible for Rich to pull a TWEEST and have Elan not get what we could see as a happy ending. It is possible. But I just don't see it. Narratively speaking, it would suck. Now I will certainly admit that the ending of Elan's Tale might not be as happy as one might expect. And there might even be a shadow over his ending that he isn't aware of (which is the Tarquin view of things - new villains will always arise later on)

But the main purpose, I feel, of Elan's Prophecy was to show for all of the doom, gloom, and angst, there is hope at the end of the rainbow. There is a good chance that, no matter what sorrows are found along the way, the story will have some sort of "happy ending". Or satisfactory ending, if one prefers. For Rich to subvert that in a major way?

Nah. Just don't see it. :smallsmile:

PS: I would also point out that both Haley's, Roy's and even Belkar's prophecies have turned out to be fairly straightforward. Sure, there was a bit of a laugh (and poking at reactions) at Belkar's Prophecy. But all of those have been fairly on the up and up.

Now I will definitely grant you that V's Prophecy was all sorts unstraightforward. And I will also grant you that Durkon's Prophecy will probably be subvertedThe Number One Fan Theory is that he returns as an Undead, possibly under the command of Team Evil.

But The Oracle has given straightforward answers. And I don't see why Elan's can't be as well.


I agree, especially given Rich's statement in the commentary that the Elan's prophecy won't turn out perfectly well.

He said no such thing in commentary. :smallsmile: He did say though that it was possible that it might not be as rosy as people might think. But he didn't say much beyond that.

[The MunchKING]

Well, while I like your idea that we could take Tarquin's advice, and apply it to Elan's timeline to define when his happy ending is, and cut the story there.

Heck HE said he had a happy ending a few pages later, when Belkar gave him an ultrasonic whistle. :smalltongue:

[Emo Samurai]

Simply put: the question was "this story." As in what the rest of the world believes to be true. That doesn't mean things will "actually" turn out well for Elan.

[Katana_Geldar]

Simply put: the question was "this story." As in what the rest of the world believes to be true. That doesn't mean things will "actually" turn out well for Elan.

Yes, but the happy ending is all about Elan.

[Felixc-91]

Heck HE said he had a happy ending a few pages later, when Belkar gave him an ultrasonic whistle. :smalltongue:that would be the lamest interpretation of happy ending ever. do you seriusly think that's what E's prophecy referred to?

[Porthos]

that would be the lamest interpretation of happy ending ever. do you seriusly think that's what E's prophecy referred to?

Paraphrasing commentary from WaXPs:

Rich has said, flat out, that the prophecy occurs at the end of the comic. He has also said that all that needs to happen for it to occur is for Elan to be quote pleased with it endquote.

Now who knows what Elan would be pleased with. Maybe sacrificing his life, while totally saving the World would make him happy. After all, he'd be sung about for generations. Or maybe it'd be something simple as saving Haley's life at the end.

Who knows?

But I think if people are looking for a way for Elan to be unhappy at the end, they might want to look elsewhere. :smallsmile:

From the same commentary, but this time about "what type of story OotS is":
On a related point, this same tract of commentary mentions that, at it's heart, OotS is still comedy-adventure and not a drama. Yes there can be periods of deep dark seriousness (the V arc and the Battle for Azure City). And, yes, there might be some tragedy at the end. But it's not going to be all doom and gloom when all is said and done.

Which is an important point to remember, I think.

...

Of course, if people are looking for drama, Rich also mentions that "not everyone in the story will be able to say the same" about having a happy ending. So you have that to hang your hat on, at least. :smallwink:

[Souhiro]

First of all, Elan asked "Will THIS STORY have a happy ending?" So, THIS Story, the story of the Order of Stick, had a begining and will have an end. The begining is when they start crawling dungeons (Or when they met and formed the order) and the end will when they slay Xikon and they disband (or when the order gets vanquished, or the Giant decides to quit)

So Elan can have a horrid death (I.E. he sees Vaarsuvius or another elf without the robes) lose Haley to Nale, and even sent into the Lower Planes because in the Upper Planes they don't like Dashing Swordmen, but his story with the Order of Stick will have INDEED a Happy Ending.


And vanquishing Xykon, torturing RedCloack to his painful death, and the obliteration of tons of hobbos can indeed be a happy ending for The Order and for most of the mortals, but I doubt that Xykon and Redcloack would like being toasted for eternity.

[Felixc-91]

Paraphrasing commentary from WaXPs:

Rich has said, flat out, that the prophecy occurs at the end of the comic. He has also said that all that needs to happen for it to occur is for Elan to be quote pleased with it endquote.

Now who knows what Elan would be pleased with. Maybe sacrificing his life, while totally saving the World would make him happy. After all, he'd be sung about for generations. Or maybe it'd be something simple as saving Haley's life at the end.

Who knows?

But I think if people are looking for a way for Elan to be unhappy at the end, they might want to look elsewhere. :smallsmile:

From the same commentary, but this time about "what type of story OotS is":
On a related point, this same tract of commentary mentions that, at it's heart, OotS is still comedy-adventure and not a drama. Yes there can be periods of deep dark seriousness (the V arc and the Battle for Azure City). And, yes, there might be some tragedy at the end. But it's not going to be all doom and gloom when all is said and done.

Which is an important point to remember, I think.

...

Of course, if people are looking for drama, Rich also mentions that "not everyone in the story will be able to say the same" about having a happy ending. So you have that to hang your hat on, at least. :smallwink:good, that's a right way to work an epic adventure. and losing people is acceptable, even preferable... they are in an epic fight and way over their heads. not losing someone would be unrealistic to an extreme.

[Sinfonian]

PS: I would also point out that both Haley's, Roy's and even Belkar's prophecies have turned out to be fairly straightforward. Sure, there was a bit of a laugh (and poking at reactions) at Belkar's Prophecy. But all of those have been fairly on the up and up.
...
But The Oracle has given straightforward answers. And I don't see why Elan's can't be as well.

You bring up a number of good points, especially about Durkon's reaction. I don't have any of the books, so I've never seen any of the commentaries before, so that was new to me. I was mostly trying to present something that I saw in a new light, given that our author had said something that might give it new context.

Off-topic, I just realized that unless Vaarsuvius started taking some supplements that we haven't seen on-panel that the Oracle's advice to Blackwing (while a throw-away joke) likely wasn't right at all.

[MightyTim]

Elan has shown remarkable ability to bounce back in the face of hardship (though the jury is still out on how he'll be able to cope with his dad being Evil). I'd always been of the mind that because of this quality, Elan's prophecy really doesn't tell us very much at all about what's going to happen (or what won't). Out of anyone in the order, I think that, as long as good wins in the end (of the strip), Elan would be most able to find the happiness through the collateral damage.

What I hadn't considered was the possibility of Elan's happy ending being his own death, as postulated by some people above. Come to think of it, "Will the story have a happy ending?" "Yes-For you, at least." Elan's part of the story would end with his death, if he didn't survive it. So logically, if Elan's death is done in a suitably dramatic fashion (I.e. in such a way that he is at peace with/happy about it), Elan's prophecy doesn't really even guarantee that he's going to see the end of the story as a whole.

So... what was my point again? Oh yeah, I just think that Elan's Happy Ending really doesn't take many possibilities off the table as far as misfortune that can befall the Order.

[eggynack]

First of all, Elan asked "Will THIS STORY have a happy ending?" So, THIS Story, the story of the Order of Stick, had a begining and will have an end. The begining is when they start crawling dungeons (Or when they met and formed the order) and the end will when they slay Xikon and they disband (or when the order gets vanquished, or the Giant decides to quit)



However, it can also be read another way. "Will this story have A happy ending." If you consider a story as having many endings, some sad and some happy, then it makes a level of sense. Nowhere is this more true then in OotS which has a ton of arcs. For example you could say that War and Xp's had a sad ending and thus the series as a whole has a sad ending. This is discounting the fact that it would be a pretty terrible prophecy as well as Porthos' assertion that this is ostensibly a comedic story.

[Vladislav]

it is entirely possible that Elan doesn't have the kind of plot armor that many people seem to believe him to have
That's what he wants you to think. It reminds me of the "ambiguity" surrounding Harry Potter's survival before Deathly Hallows came out. Of course there was no chance of Harry actually dying, but it made a great speculation topic for a while.

Belkar dies in-story, Durkon dies post-story, or possibly at the very end, Vaarsuvius barely survives and learns valuable life lessons, Haley and Elan live happily ever after, as do Roy and Celia. While the road may be long and winding, that's the ending we'll come to.

[Swordpriest]

Not to mention the fact that it would suck totally if everyone died and/or ended the story miserable. :smallsigh: I know it's a fad for stuff like that now -- probably something to do with the economic climate, as Belkar said :smallbiggrin: -- but the truth is that stories like that always leave a sour taste in the mouth. It's always most satisfying if at least someone comes out of the story with a modicum of peace and happiness after their travails.

And I think Rich is a good enough storyteller to realize that.

[Dr.Epic]

"The Story" is the story Rich is telling about the Order and the Gates, so yeah, Elan's gonna be fine. And if "the story" keeps going on, again, Elan's going to be fine.

[The MunchKING]

that would be the lamest interpretation of happy ending ever. do you seriusly think that's what E's prophecy referred to?

It fits with the idea that "A happy ending is just wherever you chose to stop the story". He chose to call that his happy ending, not the Oracle.

[Porthos]

Off-topic, I just realized that unless Vaarsuvius started taking some supplements that we haven't seen on-panel that the Oracle's advice to Blackwing (while a throw-away joke) likely wasn't right at all.

Rich has an out here as well though. While indeed ginkgo biloba is used as a memory supplement, it also used for by some people for a second purpose.

And that purpose can be roughly described as BOW-CHICKA-WOW-WOW! BOW-CHICKA-WOW-WOW! BOW-CHICKA-WOW-WOW! :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

[Red XIV]

The thing is, we already had the potential for subverting Elan's Prophecy when Durkon reacted with happiness over his fate. Rich even explicitly pointed out in commentary that he was potentially putting in a bit of doubt over that by showcasing Durkon's reactions. After all, if Durkon can be happy over arriving at his homelands dead, then maybe Elan will view a Happy Ending in some sort of unforeseen (by dramatic) way.
Honestly, I didn't find Durkon's reaction to be all that shocking. He is, after all, a Thor-worshiping dwarf. He would logically be expected to interpret that prophecy as "I die honorably in battle, go to the Lawful Good afterlife and have my body buried with my ancestors, just like every dwarf wants."

[Ender Wigin]

My brain says Rich would never intentionaly try to make his readers overthink this and just give Elan an ACTUAL happy ending, with him and his family issues resoved. My heart says, "Screw that! Elans gonna get stabbed off screen after the last victory of him you see in oots, whatever that may be".

Either thats the other way around or I'm just cruel. Maybe both. :smalltongue:

[infada]

huh??????????????