Do they need an edge? [3.5]

[The Pressman]

I have a party of 3rd level PCs playing NPC classes (4 of them), none of them magic users. What sort of edge, if it is necessary, should I give them? Edge being innate bonuses and the like, to be able to be competent.

Expert (Botanist)
Expert (Archaeologist)
Expert (Guide/Trapper)
Nomad (Trapper/Skinner/Leatherworker) (still need to find a class)

The campaign is set in a world that is sort of industrial revolution/medieval/fantasy, high magic, fairly challenging.

[TroubleBrewing]

Well, you sure haven't given us a lot to go on. What system are you using? What classes ARE they, if not those? What kind of campaign is it? How difficult will it be? What's the world like? Are they PC's or NPC's (you say they're both)?

[The Pressman]

Added the information (I think).

[Cespenar]

Brew Potion feat for the Botanist with some choice druid spells and some free craft xp.

A bonus to Use Magic Device and Decipher Script for the Archeologist, possibly giving him Scribe Scroll and some free craft xp as well.

Some Ranger/Druid related abilities for the Guide/Trapper, like Track, Wild Empathy, Animal Companion or Woodland Stride. Or give him the ability to craft traps.

Don't know much about the Nomad.

[Godskook]

An edge against *WHAT*?

Against other NPCs, with only non-adept npc class levels? No. But if you're fighting anything else, or if you're approaching CR, you should consider the party to be of an effective party level equal to half their actual party level.(So if they're level 4, treat them as having an EPL of 2, not 4). Admittedly, it won't be perfect, but a level 20 warrior is more comparable to a level 10 fighter than he is to a level 20 fighter(and that's only up 1.5 tiers).

Now, if you're tossing weirder stuff like Dragons, Mummies, or Allips at the party, then *YES*, they probably need massive help in order to defeat such foes played well.

I'm guessing this is a low-magic setting? Or at least on the PC side?(I.e., no magical classes, no magic items)

[The Pressman]

An edge against *WHAT*?

Against other NPCs, with only non-adept npc class levels? No. But if you're fighting anything else, or if you're approaching CR, you should consider the party to be of an effective party level equal to half their actual party level.(So if they're level 4, treat them as having an EPL of 2, not 4). Admittedly, it won't be perfect, but a level 20 warrior is more comparable to a level 10 fighter than he is to a level 20 fighter(and that's only up 1.5 tiers).

Now, if you're tossing weirder stuff like Dragons, Mummies, or Allips at the party, then *YES*, they probably need massive help in order to defeat such foes played well.

I'm guessing this is a low-magic setting? Or at least on the PC side?(I.e., no magical classes, no magic items)

No, it's fairly high magic, but sensible magic. Not flashy, and no really gamebreaking spells, but magic is very prevalent. Ubiquitous, even. With high background magic, that leads to interesting things in the center of the nation.

[Godskook]

No, it's fairly high magic, but sensible magic. Not flashy, and no really gamebreaking spells, but magic is very prevalent. Ubiquitous, even. With high background magic, that leads to interesting things in the center of the nation.

So how much magic do the PCs have access to?

[The Pressman]

So how much magic do the PCs have access to?

Minor magic items, at the start. They get one low-powered one at start, and all but one of them are non combat. The botanist has a specimen case/encyclopedia/pokedex, the archaeologist has a magical map, the guide has a merciful quarterstaff, and the nomad has some sort of amulet. I believe it has something to do with plentiful game, or water finding, or both.

[Godskook]

Minor magic items, at the start. They get one low-powered one at start, and all but one of them are non combat. The botanist has a specimen case/encyclopedia/pokedex, the archaeologist has a magical map, the guide has a merciful quarterstaff, and the nomad has some sort of amulet. I believe it has something to do with plentiful game, or water finding, or both.

Oh, ah. So its "Almost *NONE* related to surviving combat". Gotcha.

Unless you're pulling your punches, expect them to do consistently below their level.

A possible edge you can give them is "free vow of poverty", altered as such:
1.As if from first level
2.All bonus feats are of any kind they qualify for, instead of exalted
3.No need to take Sacred Vow or VoP as feats
4.None of the original VoP's negatives(they can still have wealth).

That'll bump them up to something more accurate of "level appropriate", and if you introduce the bonuses slowly(Ok, they're entitled to 3 feats at the moment, so I'll give them 1 now, and 1 each game session till they're caught up), they'll not feel much break in versimilitude.

[The Pressman]

That sounds eminently sensible.

[Godskook]

That sounds eminently sensible.

Oh, forgot the last change:

5.The PCs must, on the recovery of Godskook's watch, sing:

"All hail GK, All hail GK
OoooOooh GK can you seeeeeeee...."

[The Pressman]

Oh, forgot the last change:

5.The PCs must, on the recovery of Godskook's watch, sing:

"All hail GK, All hail GK
OoooOooh GK can you seeeeeeee...."

Lost your watch?

[Godskook]

Lost your watch?

I am the man who would be king of the train locker. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9NJ1ojCl7g)

[Aquillion]

Why are they playing NPC classes? That's the most important thing to answer. Are they looking for a challenge? Is part of the idea of the game that they're supposed to be non-adventurers forced to adventure?

Basically, is there a specific "feel" that you're going for, or a particular balance point? For example, why couldn't the guide/trapper be a Ranger? I assume there's a reason they're not playing a Ranger, but understanding that reason -- and knowing what sort of game you're trying to run -- is essential to giving advice on how you're going to balance it.

Personally, I would recommend against using NPC classes in a game that's intended to be "serious"; it's going to make things much harder to balance in general.

You might consider simply using a different system, if possible -- it might be that D&D isn't the best system for representing what you want to play. D&D is, generally, a system about people who traipse through dungeons killing dragons with swords and sorcery; it doesn't have any real mechanics for botany.

(However, do not play Nobilis, or your botanist will be severely overpowered.)

[molten_dragon]

I have a party of 3rd level PCs playing NPC classes (4 of them), none of them magic users. What sort of edge, if it is necessary, should I give them? Edge being innate bonuses and the like, to be able to be competent.

Expert (Botanist)
Expert (Archaeologist)
Expert (Guide/Trapper)
Nomad (Trapper/Skinner/Leatherworker) (still need to find a class)

The campaign is set in a world that is sort of industrial revolution/medieval/fantasy, high magic, fairly challenging.

Still could use some more information. What exactly are they supposed to be competent at? What sorts of challenges are they going to face? Will there be a lot of combat?

[Earthwalker]

It seems to me the players are playing NPC and you are looking for a method to turn them into player classes.

My advice would be either make them play, player classes.

Or make the edge in environment and not in the characters abilities.

For example if they end up searching some old ruins looking for something clues as to a lost civilization (Archeologist like this kind of thing) and encounter a group of Orcs that would be an appropriate fight for a group of lvl 3 adventurers then they would have to run. (Give them chances to get away) From then they would have to think of ways to take on the Orcs in an unfair fight.

Dropping rocks them from above or flooding the ruins or whatever else you and they can come up with. Be more generous withcrazy plans they try and focus less on the combat machanics.

Or as I say, just let them use player classes and play DnD.

[The Pressman]

Well, they're not starting out as adventurers, so I thought a player class would be overkill.

[molten_dragon]

Well, they're not starting out as adventurers, so I thought a player class would be overkill.

Then you've answered your own question. If they're not adventuring, then they don't need special bonuses or anything, they'll be fine as NPC classes. When they do start adventuring, you'll either need to do something to make them more powerful, or greatly tone down the challenges that they are facing.

[Zephyros]

Or you can use the highly cliched "I was an archaeologist, but after this dungeon I am an Archivist"

[Aquillion]

Well, they're not starting out as adventurers, so I thought a player class would be overkill.Don't worry about that. A level 1 adventurer is not that much more powerful than an NPC class.

More importantly, though -- giving them any levels in NPC classes is going to seriously make the game harder to balance. You're making big headaches for yourself for no reason. I assume you want them to become adventurers later? But they'll still have NPC levels, which will leave them permanently weaker than they're supposed to be for their level.

More than that, NPC classes are dull. They have no interesting abilities or powers. Since D&D is, partially, meant to be a game about using fun abilities and powers, this means that your game is going to be less fun. There won't be much difference between your players -- they'll be interchangeable, making it easy for one person to feel left out or useless because someone else constantly steps forward to do stuff. Division of powers is intended to avert that; it's an important game mechanic, which you won't have if everyone is an NPC class.

I recommend just choosing the PC class that's closest to what you want them to be, and maybe not giving them access to all their abilities until they've had a chance to "learn" them in-story (at no XP cost, though, since balance-wise it's stuff they're supposed to have already.) So start the tracker as a ranger who picks up their animal companion and fighting style in play.

[The Pressman]

Then you've answered your own question. If they're not adventuring, then they don't need special bonuses or anything, they'll be fine as NPC classes. When they do start adventuring, you'll either need to do something to make them more powerful, or greatly tone down the challenges that they are facing.

And this is what I was talking about. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[Tvtyrant]

You could always give them creeping PC classes; when they take PC classes they can class-change a few levels into that PC class each time they level. So an adept becomes a Cleric, Warrior gets backwards fighter feats, etc.

[molten_dragon]

And this is what I was talking about. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Well, the thing is, trying to give NPC classes a bunch of bonuses and abilities to make them as competent and useful as PC classes would be really difficult, and also pointless, since PC classes already exist.

I guess I don't get why you're opposed to them just playing PC classes.

[The Pressman]

Well, the thing is, trying to give NPC classes a bunch of bonuses and abilities to make them as competent and useful as PC classes would be really difficult, and also pointless, since PC classes already exist.

I guess I don't get why you're opposed to them just playing PC classes.

More for flavor than anything else, and I have them transitioning into PC classes as soon as they level (if they want).

[Tvtyrant]

I take it that they are like Onion Knights then? They have to take NPC classes to qualify for PC classes?

In that case you could set entry requirements for the PC classes and treat them as 20 level prestige classes.

[The Pressman]

No, just that that's when, in-game, they start adventuring.

[molten_dragon]

More for flavor than anything else, and I have them transitioning into PC classes as soon as they level (if they want).

Then here's my suggestion. If they're starting with NPC classes, don't give them a bunch of bonuses, just have them face appropriate challenges for an NPC class (more skill focused, light on the combat). Once they get PC classes, give them normal challenges.

[The Pressman]

Okay. And is the "1 level PC=2 levels NPC" still valid?

[grimbold]

i hope for their sake it is puzzle based and not combat based