Action points vs. Extra Feat

[maysarahs]

In a pathfinder game, one of the guys wanted to make an artificer, so the DM read up on ebberon, and now wants to include the action point system. I am not so much a fan, but I was wondering the advice Playgrounders would give regarding the choice between the two.

Information that might be pertinent:
we are starting out at level 10, I am an elven generalist BCer
other party members are an artificer (3.5 version pretty much plopped into Pathfinder, with the craft reserve removed. (the DM won't listen to my protests that this will unbalance the game)) and a cavalier

Your advice is appreciated, Thank you.

[Antonok]

I like the action point system personally. It doesn't unbalance the game, and it may give the players a chance against save or suck/save or die spells, or just in periods of bad luck. And you only get so many per level so you have to use them wisely. best part is only the pcs get them My group has been using it since we first got our hands on eberron. :smallbiggrin:

[Grendus]

I fail to see how an artificer without the craft reserve will unbalance the game. Without the craft reserve, he can't disenchant items, so he's basically a rogue with all the magic crafting skills. Unless this guy decides to focus on crafting scrolls, potions, and wants for every situation, odds are he'll do something like pick up a good weapon, maybe make a few scrolls for the most common situation your group can't handle, and go to town. It's not like he rolled a druid or something.

Action points are a fun mechanic. I don't think they'll screw up the game, once you know how to use them effectively they add a lot.

[maysarahs]

well, he effectively gets double the WBL because he crafts anything and everything he could want. We have to find existing items that do what we want, he just uses crafting guidelines to stat things up. I looked at his sheet, and he pretty much has a slotless version of everything I do. He doesn't lose experience for crafting, and can just make a wand of everything I prepare.

[Valameer]

Feats are boring.

Action points help your character succeed when you really want him to. They mitigate Save or Suck, and they encourage you to do thrilling heroic-type stuff.

I don't know why you'd have a problem with action points, as a PC. That's like having a problem with max HP at first level.

[Antonok]

well, he effectively gets double the WBL because he crafts anything and everything he could want. We have to find existing items that do what we want, he just uses crafting guidelines to stat things up. I looked at his sheet, and he pretty much has a slotless version of everything I do. He doesn't lose experience for crafting, and can just make a wand of everything I prepare.

He should still lose XP for crafting items. The craft reserve is there so he doesn't. crafting items without losing xp is.... ugh.... evil.

[maysarahs]

the DM and the player don't want the extra work of calculating experience (the dm awards levels ad hoc) I offered to do it myself, but then the player complains that I am just trying to nerf him (player comes up with crazy/stupid ideas/loves to troll, and thus we are occasionally at odds)

Back to the topic at hand, since we start at 10th level, does that mean that at 10th level we get 5*10+(25) action points?(for a total of 75?)

[alchemyprime]

the DM and the player don't want the extra work of calculating experience (the dm awards levels ad hoc) I offered to do it myself, but then the player complains that I am just trying to nerf him (player comes up with crazy/stupid ideas/loves to troll, and thus we are occasionally at odds)

Back to the topic at hand, since we start at 10th level, does that mean that at 10th level we get 5*10+(25) action points?(for a total of 75?)

Nope.

Action Points are a Per Level resource. I beleive it's 5 plus some derivative of your level per level. So if I have 5 AP at 1st level and I only use 2, the other 3 doesn't rollover.

They're like a bad cell phone contract: No roll over minutes!

EDIT: Woot! Wasn't Ninja'd!

[The Shadowmind]

Unless I'm mistaken there isn't an experience cost for item crafting in pathfinder. So the craft reserve would be removed, because the ability no longer does anything.

You don't even have to be a spellcaster to make wondrous items and magic weapons/armor. Just need Master Craftsman feat, and the appropriate craft feat.

[Antonok]

Theres a list that tells you how many you get at what levels. it goes something like this:

Character Action Point:
1st = 5
2nd–3rd = 6
4th–5th = 7
6th–7th = 8
8th–9th = 9
10th–11th = 10
12th–13th = 11
14th–15th = 12
16th–17th = 13
18th–19th = 14
20th = 15

Also you can roll more dice the higher lvl u are:

Character Level Action Point Dice (d6) Rolled
1st–7th = 1
8th–14th 2
15th–20th 3

[Fizban]

Action points are awesome, though the Eberron version is a little more restrictive and in character than the one in Unearthed Arcana. You mentioned a feat in the title but not in the post so I'm not sure what the offer is, but suffice to say that I would gladly pay a feat to use action points if they weren't already in the game. The ability to offset the randomness of your rolls is awesome, since usually randomness is what gets the PCs killed. Aside from that, read the action point related feats in the various Eberron books: you should find they are quite awesome. Action Surge, if nothing else, will give you more game breaking nova potential than any other ability as long as you save it for once every 4 or 5 fights.

Regarding crafting and experience points: no, it's not going to break the game. Especially since your DM doesn't want to track experience points heavily, it is more than likely that if he even fell behind a level, he would then slingshot ahead of the party from increased xp gain due to that lower level. In fact, from what you've told us, the joke's on him. He's wasting the price cut from crafting on making his items slotless, so he's not getting any real benefit. With the MiC upgrading guidelines and any amount of intelligent item planning, you should never run into problems with your item slots. In short, the fact that your DM and artificer don't feel like putting in the effort is having the exact opposite effect from unbalancing the game.

[Salbazier]

Likewise, I can't understand the complain that removing craft reserve will unbalance the game. Well, maybe it can, in the sense that the artificer will become weaker compared to others. And that for 3.5. PF, like stated above does not have XP cost. Not for spells nor item crafting. So, no harm for either side.

As for double WBL, what is the problem? Casters (and everybody else, if they pay extra cost) can do that. Making things is the artificer's whole stick. They got effective double WBL since without they got little else to do. He has to pay for everything. You got your spells for free. Just talk with him to make wands/scrolls that have different spells than you prepare.

[FelixG]

well, he effectively gets double the WBL because he crafts anything and everything he could want. We have to find existing items that do what we want, he just uses crafting guidelines to stat things up. I looked at his sheet, and he pretty much has a slotless version of everything I do. He doesn't lose experience for crafting, and can just make a wand of everything I prepare.

If he is a dedicated crafter why not just have him make things for you guys too? that's what my group does when I play artificers or craftsmen, they sell off their loot ask me to make something for them that will fit what they want and I get to work.

[molten_dragon]

Are you using the Eberron action point rules, or the Unearthed Arcana ones? Your OP leads me to believe the Eberron ones, but I thought I would ask.

The Eberron rules are decent, and probably worth a feat.

If by chance you are using the Unearthed Arcana rules, they are absolutely worth the cost of a feat. You can use them for a ton more stuff, including mimicking other feats, and most importantly for spellcasters, adding metamagic to spells without increasing the level or casting time.

[Hanuman]

I'm a fan of AP.

[Saintheart]

Likewise I like APs, especially for PbP RPG. Reason being that we do allow people to use action points to emulate feats they otherwise meet the prerequisites for, which gives folks a lot more versatility in what they can do. Very useful given your opportunities for changing feats come up rarely (at least, in real time) in that sort of situation.

[Gnaeus]

PF also has its own version of action points. They are called hero points, and are in the back of the advanced players guide. You get 1 + 1 every time you level, max of 3 unless you take feats to get more.

[GoatBoy]

Currently running a PF game in the Eberron world, and I recently statted up an Artificer to see how that would work.

1. Artificers need action points far more than other classes, because you can never be perfectly prepared for all situations that arise in combat, and artificers otherwise need a full minute for most of their infusions. Playing without them is a serious handicap.

2. The strength of the artificer as far as crafting items isn't the craft reserve, it's the fact that they can create anything without requiring the spells, and at two levels above what would be expected. PF lets other classes do this via feats, but not for spell trigger or spell completion items. So, say the party is trapped inside a deep hole and no one can get them out. As long as they can wait a day, the artificer of high enough level can simply create a scroll of fly.

3. Action points on their own are helpful, and become even more helpful as you level (2d6, drop lower at level 8, etc). But their real power is the feats which let you use them in other ways. Action Surge: extra standard action for 2 action points? YES PLS.

Remember that artificers are a tier 1 class... you could remove more than one of their abilities and they'd still be godly, if played right.