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View Full Version : Monk Variant - Serpent Style - 3.5 [PEACH]



Chells
2010-12-10, 01:30 PM
I know that UA and Dragon had some variants for monks that changed out the Bonus Feats but I was thinking of swapping out Flurry of Blows instead (or as well).
Flurry’s mechanics are:
1st level: +1 Attack. All attacks get -2
5th level: +1 to Hit with Flurries
9th level: +1 to Hit with Flurries
11th level: +1 Attack
This I was thinking was very Tiger School (Offense)

So here is my idea for a more defensive school.
1st level: Eyes in the Back of your Head (CWar p98)
Attackers who are flanking you do not receive a +2 attack bonus. You still are considered Flanked, so you can still be Sneak Attacked. This ability does not apply if you are Flat-Footed or deprived of your Dex.

5th level: Improved Uncanny Dodge (SRD)
Cannot be Flanked except by a Rogue at least 4 levels higher.

9th level: Close-Quarters Fighting (CWar p97):
You receive an Attack of Opportunity when a creature attempts to Grapple you, even if the creature has Improved Grapple or an ability that lets its start a Grapple without an Attack of Opportunity.
If you cause damage on your Attack of Opportunity, the Grapple attempt automatically fails unless the attacker has Improved Grapple or a similar ability. In this case, add you damage to the initial Grapple check to see if the creature starts its Grapple.
This Feat does not grant an extra Attack of Opportunity.

11th level: Leaf on the Wind (Custom) (Working title, was thinking how one can use mutilple oppents against each other)
You gain a +1 Circumstance bonus to your AC for every two opponent within your reach who are adjacent to each other or who would normally be flanking you. Each opponent can only be part of one pair. This ability does not apply if you are Flat-Footed or deprived of your Dex.

So how balanced is this?

If this seems workable then I may try out some other schools based on different ideas (Movement, AoO’s, Spellcasting, etc.)

gkathellar
2010-12-10, 02:21 PM
This might actually be a downgrade, in terms of power. I don't really know how Flurry's math breaks down, but it seems like full attacking is one of the very few things monks can do without completely sucking. The bonuses you're offering in return don't really solve any of the monk' countless problems, so yeah.

Roderick_BR
2010-12-10, 02:43 PM
Maybe select a set of free feats he can earn every few levels, like the ranger's combat style. A little help to the little guy is never too much. You *really* don't need to take away anything from him.

Very quick examples:
Tiger School (offensive style):
1st level: Powerful Charge (Miniatures Handbook)
6th level: Leap Attack (Complete Adventure)
11th level: Greater Powerful Charge (Miniatures Handbook)
16th level: Dire Charge (I know it's epic, but it shouldn't)

Then make others related styles with different feats.
Something for stealth, other for debuffing, immobilization, throwing...

Adamantrue
2010-12-11, 07:02 AM
If you were going to go with Feats, you could somewhat emulate Flurry while expanding versatility by subbing in something from the Two-Weapon Fighting tree.

1st: Two-Weapon Fighting (ignore prerequisites, but only without Armor)
5th: Two-Weapon Defense (ignore prerequisites, but only without Armor)
9th: Two-Weapon Pounce (ignore prerequisites, but only without Armor)
11th: Two-Weapon Rend (ignore prerequisites, but only without Armor)

This would reduce their Attack rolls by two & eliminate an extra attack at higher levels (and honestly, I'm not altogether happy with the 5th level choice). However, I would argue this has more synergy with other Monk features. Also note that I didn't specify that it requires special Monk weapons, so picking up other Weapon Proficiencies could enhance this a bit.

However, you seem more concerned on the Defensive aspect. Perhaps you would be interested in working with an existing Fighting Style (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les), and building on that.

For example, Cobra Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) combined with Elusive Target could be particularly helpful, and since you are considering giving up Flurry of Blows, Spring Attack may become more attractive. Add something a little more interesting that has some synergy, like perhaps Combat Focus Feats?

1st: Combat Focus in exchange for Flurry, Bonus Feat is Dodge
2nd: Bonus Feat is Mobility
5th: Combat Stability in exchange for +1 to Flurry
6th: Bonus Feat is Spring Attack, 6th level Bonus Ability
9th: Elusive Target in exchange for +1 to Flurry
11th: Bounding Assault (ignoring prerequisites) in exchange for Extra Flurry

This creates a Hit & Run offensive style, opens up the Combat Focus tree (Combat Defense & Combat Vigor could prove handy), and offers some unique Defensive maneuvers.

Also would work well thematically with something called "Serpent Style"...

true_shinken
2010-12-11, 10:15 AM
This is definitely weaker than flurry of blows.
Also, striking multiple times a round sounds like something a snake style should do. That's what Gen does in SF, at least.

Adamantrue
2010-12-11, 10:35 AM
I dunno. A "Snake" seems like it should be in-and-out evasive, more Hit & Run than rapid successions of strikes. Maybe include some sort of Poison use, to include more of the theme.

The only other "Serpent" style attack-mode would include Grappling, simulating the attack style of a Constrictor.

Chells
2010-12-16, 08:51 AM
Ok maybe Serpent Sytle is derailing me. I am looking for a combinations of abilities/feats that will enable to my monk to stand in the middle of a horde of monsters. The more guys around him the better he does. You've seen it in hundreds movies where the lone hero is surrounded on all sides and instead of being flanked to shreads he uses his enemies against themselves and each other. They tumble down around him while he spins away from thier strikes.

Now just ramping up his AC at the cost of his abilty to hit is not what I'm after either since he is not supposed to just be an untouchable target. He needs hit too. So no Combat Expertise, fighting on defense or full defense.

So how would you build it? I was going to leave the 1st and 2nd level feat Improved Grapple (enabling him to better handle being grabbed and dragged down) and Combat Reflexes (Anyone in the middle of a mob is going to get multiple opening for AoOs). That being said if your build needs either of the those feats feel free to swap them out.

How about this:
1st level: Improved Uncanny Dodge (SRD)
Cannot be Flanked except by a Rogue at least 4 levels higher.

5th level: Close-Quarters Fighting (CWar p97):
You receive an Attack of Opportunity when a creature attempts to Grapple you, even if the creature has Improved Grapple or an ability that lets its start a Grapple without an Attack of Opportunity.
If you cause damage on your Attack of Opportunity, the Grapple attempt automatically fails unless the attacker has Improved Grapple or a similar ability. In this case, add you damage to the initial Grapple check to see if the creature starts its Grapple.
This Feat does not grant an extra Attack of Opportunity.

9th level: Some sort of AoO feat like:
Exploit Adjustment: You may make an Attack of Opportunity on an opponent you threaten who takes a 5’ step from one square adjacent to you to another square adjacent to you.
or
Defensive Sweep: If an opponent begins his/her round adjacent to you and does not move for the entire round (including a 5’ Step), he/she generates an Attack of Opportunity for you just after his/her round ends.

or something origional like ... you can make an AoO against an opponent who flanks you but misses.

11th??? still thinking a +to AC the more guys you face. Come to think of it maybe it should be a deflection bonus instead of circumstance.

gkathellar
2010-12-16, 09:06 AM
Build questions are for the Roleplaying Forum. Ask over there.

Chells
2010-12-16, 09:10 AM
Build questions where you are using standard mechanics, sure. On the other hand it seems to me if you are replacing Flurry of Blows with a custom set of abilities then this is the right place to be.

Adamantrue
2010-12-16, 10:48 AM
Ok maybe Serpent Sytle is derailing me. I am looking for a combinations of abilities/feats that will enable to my monk to stand in the middle of a horde of monsters. The more guys around him the better he does. You've seen it in hundreds movies where the lone hero is surrounded on all sides and instead of being flanked to shreads he uses his enemies against themselves and each other. They tumble down around him while he spins away from thier strikes.

Now just ramping up his AC at the cost of his abilty to hit is not what I'm after either since he is not supposed to just be an untouchable target. He needs hit too. So no Combat Expertise, fighting on defense or full defense.

So how would you build it? I was going to leave the 1st and 2nd level feat Improved Grapple (enabling him to better handle being grabbed and dragged down) and Combat Reflexes (Anyone in the middle of a mob is going to get multiple opening for AoOs). That being said if your build needs either of the those feats feel free to swap them out.

How about this:
1st level: Improved Uncanny Dodge (SRD)
Cannot be Flanked except by a Rogue at least 4 levels higher.

5th level: Close-Quarters Fighting (CWar p97):
You receive an Attack of Opportunity when a creature attempts to Grapple you, even if the creature has Improved Grapple or an ability that lets its start a Grapple without an Attack of Opportunity.
If you cause damage on your Attack of Opportunity, the Grapple attempt automatically fails unless the attacker has Improved Grapple or a similar ability. In this case, add you damage to the initial Grapple check to see if the creature starts its Grapple.
This Feat does not grant an extra Attack of Opportunity.

9th level: Some sort of AoO feat like:
Exploit Adjustment: You may make an Attack of Opportunity on an opponent you threaten who takes a 5’ step from one square adjacent to you to another square adjacent to you.
or
Defensive Sweep: If an opponent begins his/her round adjacent to you and does not move for the entire round (including a 5’ Step), he/she generates an Attack of Opportunity for you just after his/her round ends.

or something origional like ... you can make an AoO against an opponent who flanks you but misses.

11th??? still thinking a +to AC the more guys you face. Come to think of it maybe it should be a deflection bonus instead of circumstance. In those movie scenes where a lone hero faces a horde, he usually outclasses them considerably in combat prowess. In D&D terms, he might have like a half-dozen levels on them. With that in mind, Combat Expertise in and of itself wouldn't be so horrible.

With that said, purely in terms of Feats, these are some of the things I'd consider in such a build (under those circumstances), regardless of Class choice.

Bounding Assault (requires Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack), Rapid Blitz usually isn't worth it, but you can still get good mileage out of a second attack.
Cleave (requires Power Attack), a choice that would normally be very game-specific instead of general purpose.
Combat Reflexes, you've already mentioned why. I might try to take advantage of this with Karmic Strike or Rolibar's Gambit, or perhaps some sort of Reach Weapon.
Elusive Target (requires Dodge and Mobility), a favorite of mine that counters a lot of basic combat situations.
Hold the Line (requires Combat Reflexes) I'm mentioning this because of how much Spring Attack has come up, and that it is a style that sets up Chargers. Its alright by itself, but if you can use it in combination with something else (Sidestep, Improved Trip), you can foil their charge.
Improved Trip (requires Combat Expertise), a single attack that sets up more, and slows them down.
Shock Trooper (requires Improved Bull Rush and Power Attack), its hard to ever argue with Shock Trooper, but Domino Rush could prove handy in this situation.
Whirlwind Attack (requires Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack), its handy to have if you are working on a Spring Attack playstyle, and in these specific circumstances.

Mongoose87
2010-12-16, 05:50 PM
Other than Improve Uncanny Dodge, none of those things provide much to help you in the middle of the crowd.

First, I'd throw Improved Toughness in there. Don't take anything away to compensate, it's not that great, but it'll help your MAD and d8 HD survive.

Next, I'd add either some fast-scaling DR, or some sort of ability to block attacks. Maybe allow making an opposed attack roll to block an attack, and each block counts as an AoO. Since you're a Monk, you've only got Medium BaB and no weapon enhancements, so you won't be all that good at it - that'll keep it from being OP.

Close Quarters Fighting isn't that much good to you, as not all that many enemies actually try to grapple.