Master Thrower: Trap or Trump? (3.5)

[Noedig]

As the title suggest, I'm out to discover if the Master Thrower is viable. How do you build one? Why is throwing something better than using a bow? Can it compete with the other classes? Etc.

Thanks Playgrounders!

[Ernir]

Apply carefully. Can be a trap that gets you stuck in one-trick-pony land, but it can do all kinds of nifty things, like doubling your number of attacks (Palm Throw).

Throwing has more support in 3.5 than archery, odd as it may be. Tome of Battle has a PrC dedicated to throwing, there exists a version of the Power Attack feat for throwers, and so on.

[Noedig]

Ok so how about building into it? Start with human rogue or ranger, and go from there? Maybe throw in a monk level. Get Brutal Throw, some returning/distance throwing weapons.

This PrC looks like it would be hard to mess up.

[Fouredged Sword]

A halfling rogue that focuses on throwing sneak attacks can be very powerful. You can get a trememdous number of attacks with twf-ing darts.

[Saint GoH]

My absolute favorite build involves this Master Thrower, if you'd like I can PM the nitty gritty, but basically you apply Dex to Damage 3 times, have sneak attacks, throw 2 daggers per attack at touch AC, and everytime someone gets hit by a dagger I get to make a trip attempt.

[Shyftir]

I find swashbuckler to be a good way in. It allows you to focus more on dex and int and not need strength as much as well as being very nice for skill points+full BAB. With a bit of work you can get into both Master Thower and Invisible Blade, this results in a pretty wicked combo as long as you focus on daggers. A must for such a build is a Gauntlet of Infinite Blades.

[AslanCross]

If you want to be a machine gun, take Master Thrower. If you want to be a guided missile launcher, take Bloodstorm Blade. Bloodstorm Blade is more powerful, strictly speaking, but Master Thrower works better with Dex-based builds. It's easier to go wrong with Master Thrower than Bloodstorm Blade.

[gorfnab]

Here are some Halfling Thrower builds I made for a friend a while ago. The first build is a simple one using limited resources. The second one is a more advanced build use more resources. The third one is bordering on crazy with many resources used. Because of Master Thrower each build is able to throw, at level 20, 16 daggers per round all as ranged touch attacks and most with a decent amount of sneak attack damage.
Halfling Thrower 1
Halfling
1. Rogue - Halfling Rogue RS - Point Blank Shot
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Precise Shot
4. Rogue - Halfling Rogue RS
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Two Weapon Fighting
7. Fighter - B: Weapon Focus Dagger
8. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
9. Master Thrower - Far Shot
10. Whisperknife - B: Rapid Shot
11. Whisperknife
12. Whisperknife - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - B: Improved Critical Dagger, Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade

Halfling Rogue Racial Substitution - Races of the Wild page 160
Whisperknife - Races of the Wild page 135
Swashbuckler - Complete Warrior page 11
Master Thrower - Complete Warrior page 58
Invisible Blade - Complete Warrior page 45

Master Thrower weapon triks - Palm Throw (level 8), Two With One Blow (13), Weak Spot (15)



Halfling Thrower 2

Strongheart Halfling
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Craven
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Two Weapon Fighting
7. Fighter - B: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
8. Fighter - B: Far Shot
9. Swordsage - B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand weapons, Shadow Blade
10. Swordsage
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
12. Master Thrower - Rapid Shot
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - B: Improved Critical, Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade

Strongheart Halfling from Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting page 17 or 18
Craven feat from Champions of Ruin page 17
Swordsage from Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords page 15
Shadow Blade feat from Tome of Battle page 32
Penetrating Strike Alternate Class Feature from Dungeonscape page 13


Halfling Thrower 3
Strongheart Halfling
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craven, Far Shot, 2x Flaws
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF(DS)
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swordsage - B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand weapons, Shadowblade
7. Swashbuckler
8. Fighter - Targeteer ACF - Vital Aim
9. Fighter - Targeteer ACF - Rapid Shot, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Swordsage
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
12. Master Thrower - Dead Eye (DragMag 304)
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - B: Improved Critical, Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade

Love of Nature flaw from Dragon Magazine #324 page 93
Loud Mouth flaw from Dragon Magazine #324 page 98
Targeteer ACF and Vital Aim from Dragon Magazine #310 page 39
Dead Eye feat from Dragon Magazine #304 page 84

[Kalaska'Agathas]

My absolute favorite build involves this Master Thrower, if you'd like I can PM the nitty gritty, but basically you apply Dex to Damage 3 times, have sneak attacks, throw 2 daggers per attack at touch AC, and everytime someone gets hit by a dagger I get to make a trip attempt.

Oh, do post it, will you?

[gorfnab]

Oh, do post it, will you?
Actually the 3rd Halfling Thrower build I posted can do almost all of that. The only difference I can see is that mine gets Dex mod to damage twice on ranged atttacks and Dex mod to damage once on melee. I think with his build he would be using the Hit-and-Run Tactics fighter Variant from Drow of the Underdark for the 3rd Dex mod to damage. Depending on how lenient your DM is you could pull that off with my build too if the DM would allow Targeteer and Hit-and-Run fighter variants to work at the same time.

[JaronK]

Halfling Skiprocks are virtually a must for this. They double your attacks (when there's two or more enemies), and are small enough to be doubled again.

JaronK

[elpollo]

Actually the 3rd Halfling Thrower build I posted can do almost all of that. The only difference I can see is that mine gets Dex mod to damage twice on ranged atttacks and Dex mod to damage once on melee. I think with his build he would be using the Hit-and-Run Tactics fighter Variant from Drow of the Underdark for the 3rd Dex mod to damage. Depending on how lenient your DM is you could pull that off with my build too if the DM would allow Targeteer and Hit-and-Run fighter variants to work at the same time.

I was under the impression that you could only apply an ability modifier to something once (minus the whole "Strength x 1.5" or whatever) as per the stacking modifiers rule (check the spoiler).


Modifiers
A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty.

Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

Modifier Types
Ability Modifier
The bonus or penalty associated with a particular ability score. Ability modifiers apply to die rolls for character actions involving the corresponding abilities.

Can someone explain how people are getting 2x/3x their dexterity to damage (or if it's an oversight on people's part)?

[Radar]

If you want to be a machine gun, take Master Thrower. If you want to be a guided missile launcher, take Bloodstorm Blade. Bloodstorm Blade is more powerful, strictly speaking, but Master Thrower works better with Dex-based builds. It's easier to go wrong with Master Thrower than Bloodstorm Blade.
It's even better to get both of those PrCs - they mesh very well with each other.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Well, there's this build here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5140212&postcount=11) by Keld Denar that mixes Bard, Warblade and Master Thrower.

[Ernir]

I was under the impression that you could only apply an ability modifier to something once (minus the whole "Strength x 1.5" or whatever) as per the stacking modifiers rule (check the spoiler).



Can someone explain how people are getting 2x/3x their dexterity to damage (or if it's an oversight on people's part)?

This refers to the name of the class feature/feat/stuff that allows you to apply the ability to something, not the ability itself.

For example, a Blackguard/Paladin of Tyranny multiclass character only gets his charisma bonus to saving throws once, because they both have the Dark Blessing class feature, which doesn't stack with itself. But if it were a Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny, the PoT's Dark Blessing would stack with the Hexblade's Arcane Resistance (with the caveat that the Hexblade ability doesn't apply to everything, but that's irrelevant to the discussion).

[elpollo]

This refers to the name of the class feature/feat/stuff that allows you to apply the ability to something, not the ability itself.

For example, a Blackguard/Paladin of Tyranny multiclass character only gets his charisma bonus to saving throws once, because they both have the Dark Blessing class feature, which doesn't stack with itself. But if it were a Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny, the PoT's Dark Blessing would stack with the Hexblade's Arcane Resistance (with the caveat that the Hexblade ability doesn't apply to everything, but that's irrelevant to the discussion).

Hmm, I'm not convinced. The SRD says "of the same type/from the same source" for non-stacking purposes, then lists Ability Modifiers as a type of modifier, which, to me, implies that they shouldn't stack.

I guess with the hexblade/PoT thing you could argue they stack (I say could when I clearly mean "could and would struggle to make a weak case out of it") as the hexblade's wording says they gain "a bonus equal to his charisma bonus", so the bonus is technically untyped, but I'd still be tempted to count these as ability bonuses. I realise that at this point I'm going more RAI than RAW, though, especially as the monk gains "her wisdom bonus to AC", although these could be oversights on the designers' parts.

I guess it all comes down to the wording of the various abilities granting the bonus, so if people can point me to the appropriate classes/feats I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong.

edit - I see one is Targeteer (so if someone could tell me the location of that) and one is a variant fighter from Drow of the Underdark (which I don't own so can't check), but if I can get that third dex-to-damage source that'd be great.

Ok, it seems that the Targeteer is the fighter variant in Dragon 310, so since I don't have access to any of this stuff if someone could just tell me I'm wrong that would be a lot easier.

Also I apologise for totally derailing this thread.

[Amphetryon]

Mommy_Was_An_Orc advocated Master Thrower as a solid entry method into Fochlucan Lyrist, back in the day at 339. It gets Gatling-Gun silly with Halfling Whisperknife, as well.

[Noedig]

Wow lots of posts!

Saint GoH, if you could pm me the nit and accompanying grit, that would be great.

Gorfnab, thanks for posting those builds. The first and second look to be the most doable, as I don't have access to Dragon Magazine, and my DMs disapprove of some of the material there in.

JaronK, what are Skiprocks? Where are they? They sound awesome.

[gorfnab]

Ok, it seems that the Targeteer is the fighter variant in Dragon 310, so since I don't have access to any of this stuff if someone could just tell me I'm wrong that would be a lot easier.

Also I apologise for totally derailing this thread.[/i]
Targeteer Fighter can choose the Vital Aim ability instead of feat. Vital Aim basically gets you Dex mod to damage with ranged attacks if your Dex mod is better than you Str and if the target is not immune to critical hits. Also your Str mod and Dex mod each have to be positive.

The Dead Eye (DragMag 304) feat gets you Dex mod to damage with ranged attacks with in 30ft.

[JaronK]

JaronK, what are Skiprocks? Where are they? They sound awesome.

Races of the Wild. If you're proficient, you can hit a second target after the first, at -4 to hit. You can do this with every hit. For obvious reasons, this is awesome. If you have full martial weapon proficiency, you can get them with Improved Weapon Familiarity on a Halfling, because they're a Halfling weapon. See also the Warsling for other interesting Halfling weapons. Same book.

JaronK

[Radar]

Races of the Wild. If you're proficient, you can hit a second target after the first, at -4 to hit. You can do this with every hit. For obvious reasons, this is awesome. If you have full martial weapon proficiency, you can get them with Improved Weapon Familiarity on a Halfling, because they're a Halfling weapon. See also the Warsling for other interesting Halfling weapons. Same book.

JaronK
If it's going to be a Halfling thrower, then Rock-Skipping Champion would make it just that more awesome - it's a perfect attack multiplier. It gets hilarious with flat damage bonus like Sneak Attack or Dragonfire Inspiration. It's not an official PrC, but really good.

[JaronK]

Wouldn't help with sneak attack, as it would probably count as a volley attack.

JaronK

[Hewhodrinksbeer]

I'm actually play testing a hobgoblin master thrower.
Instead I'm going the inhuman circus freak, which leads me to scout! 10 levels gives skirmish and blindsense. Current feats at LVL 9 leap of the heavens, acrobatic strike, dodge, mobility and spring attack
Lvl10 take point blank
Str14/dex20/con14/int14/wis14/cha11 are current lvl 9. Good rolls much?
Go monk 5 for combat reflexes precise shot weapon focus shuriken and stunning fist. Automatic 7 attempts to stunning fist per day.

Take leap attack and whirlwind attack, poisoned shuriken deaths all day

[Togo]

I'm quite fond of combining swashbuckler with Master-thrower with Chameleon.

[SPoilaaja]

Remember that you only get one set of sneak attack dice per attack roll, like for example if you are palm throwing. With palm throw, you should try to stack on other bonus damage sources, like knowledge devotion, factotum int to damage bonuses. Arguably craven could work since the bonus damage from the feat is not sneak attack damage per se: "when making a sneak attack, you deal an extra 1 point of damage per character level."

[Talionis]

I'm quite fond of combining swashbuckler with Master-thrower with Chameleon.

I'm interested... Tell me more.

[Togo]

Swashbuckler is a full BAB class, which you want to get master thrower as early as possible. It's also suitable for a high Dex build which you presumably have if you're looking to use palm throw, since palm throw doesn't allow you to use strength. And it gives insightful strike, which adds your int bonus to light weapons.

Combine with two levels of ranger to get started on the two-weapon fighting tree, and to get favoured enemy, and you are qualified for master thrower at 5th.

Then you go for chamleon. This is a great utility class, which helps stop the character from being such a one-trick pony. Since it gives you access to 'arcane' and 'divine' spellcasting rather than just cleric and sorc/wizard, you might as well fill up on all the interesting Ranger/paladin/assassin/wu jen spells that work well with ranged combat and melee. Because you went Swashbuckler, you have the int to use them. And the little used powers that immitate fighters do so by giving you a flat bonus to hit and to damage that stacks with everything. Normally that's trivial, but when you're rolling 8 attacks to attack 16 times on each of two opponents, every little helps.

Note that this is a low-op build. You end up good enough to shine, but not enough to make other characters feel redundant. It relies on common books, no dragon magazine, no questionable rulings. Things like targeteer, flaws, and halfling skip rocks help you even more.

The biggest problem with the master thrower is that you run out of feats quite quickly, because you want both the archery tree and the two-weapon fighting tree. The second problem is creatues that are immune to criticals, because you can't use critical hits to penetrate their DR. Favoured enemy (elementals) is a step in the right direction here, as are items like the spirit pouch. The third is magical weapons. When you're throwing 100s of daggers, getting them enchanted individually isn't an option. I'd suggest either modifying the manticore guantlets from the back of the magic item compendium to produce a suitable light weapon, or pursuading the DM to allow to enchant a guantlet of the infinite blades as if it were a weapon so it produces magical daggers.

The fourth is weight. Daggers are heavy, and your character probably has low strength. Consider a quiver of Elhonna, but bear in mind, you'll probably fill it!

[Artillery]

There is very nice synergy potential between Master Thrower and Bloodstorm Blade.

Build around a dex and int base. Throwing Rapier Two-handed at people for double PA damage against Touch AC. Swashbuckler/Warblade base.

Note: Rapier does not gain 1.5xstrength for two-handing it, that does not preclude it from getting double returns on Power Attack.

The other option is a Full Warblade base that focuses on str and int. Going Warblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower 5. This must likely would be throwing Falcion at people.

Both builds can make use of Lightning Kukri though the Dex based on would be better off and using Palm Throw and losing strength dmg will matter less.

Bloodstorm blade 4 makes every throwing build easier because you can make full iterative attacks with only your standard weapons.