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true_shinken
2010-12-10, 04:23 PM
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dnd_prc_20070403_bladsngr.jpg
Bladesinger (Elven Duskblade)
Elves were the first race to blur the line between spellcaster and warrior with their duskblade tradition - the perfect marriage between spell and blade. Within the powerful elven empire that first spawned the duskblades, however, there were different schools. One of those schools are the basis for the bladesinging technique.
Bladesingers are not interested on using their spells or fighting prowess as simple tools. A bladesingers blend of dance, swordplay and arcane magic is an art. The name may be misleading and many thought bladesingers were ome kind of bard, singing while they fight. A bladesinger art is much too different from a bard's, though. They fight as if dancing, making their weapons sing as they slash through the air - or the enemy.
The lack of heavier armor is compensated by increased speed and gracious, flowing movements.
A bladeser's deadly dance is surely beautiful to watch, but also very dangerous to confront.
Hit Die: d8
Requirements: To take a bladesinger substitution level, a character
must have the elf subtype and be about to take her 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th or 13th level of Duskblade.

Class Skills:
Bladesingers substitution levels have the same class skills of the standard Duskblade class, plus Balance, Perform (dance) and Tumble.

Class Features:
All the following are class features of the bladesinger substitution level.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bladesinger is proficient with all martial weapons and the elven thinblade. A bladesinger is also proficient with light armor (but not with shields).
Bladesong (Ex): A bladesinger is trained to focus his attention on his blade and on his opponent. When wielding a longsword, elven thinblade or rapier on one hand and nothing in the other and wearing light armor or no armor, a bladesinger gains both a dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to her Intelligence bonus and a competence bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to her Intelligence bonus.
This substitution feature replaces the Duskblade's armored mage (light) class feature. A bladesinger gains armored mage (light) instead of armored mage (medium) at 4th level.
Song of Celerity (Su): A bladesinger keeps on hand on his sword, trained on his opponent, and casts spells with his free hand. As a full-attack action, a bladesinger may make a single melee attack with a one-handed longsword, rapier or elven thinblade and cast a spell with a casting time of one standard action or less. This action does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
At 6th level, you can make an additional melee attack with a -5 penalty when you use Song of Celerity. At 11th level, you can also make a second additional melee attack with a -10 penalty. At 16th level, you can also make a fourth additional melee attack with a -15 penalty.
This substitution feature replaces the Duskblade's arcane channeling class feature.
Song of Fury (Su): At 7th level, a bladesinger improves on his blend of sword, blade and art. When using Song of Celerity, the duskblade may spend a spell slot as a free action to transform it into a Song of Fury. In a Song of Fury, all effects that would grant additional melee attacks with a longsword, rapier or elven thinblade during a full attack (such as the haste spell or a speed weapon) apply as if the bladesinger was performing a full-attack, thus granting additional attacks as normal. In addition, a Bladesinger can move his speed as a swift action during a Song of Fury. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. A Song of Fury lasts one round per level of the spell sacrificed.
This substitution feature replaces the Duskblade's armored mage (heavy shield) class feature.
Expanded Spell List (Ex): A bladesinger's training allows her to add a few spells not usually on the Duskblade list to his own spell list.
At 5th level, mirror image and blur are added to the 1st level Duskblade spell list. A bladesinger has one fewer spell 2nd level spell slot per day because of her focused training, however (only 1 2nd level spell at 5th level, for example).
At 9th level, haste and displacement are added to her 3rd Duskblade spell list. A bladesinger has one fewer spell 3rd level spell slot per day because of her focused training, however (only 1 3rd level spell at 9th level, for example).
At 13th level, greater mirror image and greater invisibility are added to her 4th level Duskblade spell list. A bladesinger has one fewer spell 4th level spell slot per day because of her focused training, however (only 1 4th level spell at 13th level, for example).

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spellcasting
1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Arcane attunement, bladesong|Same as Duskblade
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Song of Celerity|Same as Duskblade
4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Armored mage (light)|Same as Duskblade
5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Quick cast 1/day, expanded spell list|See text
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Song of Fury|Same as Duskblade
9th|+9/+4|+5|+2|+5|Expanded spell list|See text
13th|+13/+8/+3|+5|+2|+5|Expanded spell list|See text
[/table]
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OK, this is my first homebrew on this forum and I'd like to know what you guys think. I'm sure it needs some work.
Q&A
Why did you do this, Shinken?
I'm a big fan of gishes and of agile combatants, so it goes without saying how much I like the Bladesinger concept. The class has interesting history - it bland and weak in Tome and Blood, then the web enhancement made it a lot more powerful. Then came Races of Faerun with a similar version. Then Complete Warrior came and hit the Bladesinger very hard with a nerfstick.
So, I was thinking - Duskblades are elven in origin. They are armored gishes. How about making them unarmored/lightly armored? That would solve most issues.

gkathellar
2010-12-10, 05:07 PM
Formatting request: Less wall o'text.


Requirements: To take a bladesinger substitution level, a character must have the elf subtype and be about to take her 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 9th level of Duskblade.

Add 7th and 13th level, since there are class features then, too. You can probably drop 4th from the list, since weakened armor use is automatic.

Do you want this to be open to half-elves? Elf-subtype allows for that, I believe.

I'm not sure this section is needed at all, we all know how substitution levels work ... :smallbiggrin:


Class Skills:
Bladesingers substitution levels have the same class skills of the standard Duskblade class, plus Balance, Perform (dance) and Tumble.

Class Features:
All the following are class features of the bladesinger substitution level.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bladesinger is proficient with all martial weapons and the elven thinblade. A bladesinger is also proficient with light armor (but not with shields).

Finesse fighter. Dances around. Has a weapon with stats the rapier should have gotten. Understood.


Bladesong (Ex): A bladesinger is trained to focus his attention on his blade and on his opponent. When wielding a longsword, elven thinblade or rapier on one hand and nothing in the other and wearing light armor or no armor, a bladesinger gains both a dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to her Intelligence bonus and a competence bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to her Intelligence bonus.
This substitution feature replaces the Duskblade's armored mage (light) class feature. A bladesinger gains armored mage (light) instead of armored mage (medium) at 4th level.

Seems fair. You'll have a little less AC early on, but better reflex. Once you get Armored Mage (medium), though, you've got swordsage-level AC and good saves all around. Might be a little much, but it's better to keep a similar balance point at level 1 than it is to worry about small boosts at 4+.


Song of Celerity (Su): A bladesinger keeps on hand on his sword, trained on his opponent, and casts spells with his free hand. As a full-attack action, a bladesinger may make a single melee attack with a one-handed longsword, rapier or elven thinblade and cast a spell with a casting time of one standard action or less. This action does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
At 6th level, you can make an addition melee attack with a -5 penalty with Song of Celerity. At 11th level, you can also make a second additional melee attack with a -10 penalty. At 16th level, you can also make a fourth additional melee attack with a -15 penalty.
This substitution feature replaces the Duskblade's arcane channeling class feature.

That's interesting and again, probably more powerful than the original. Basically you can full attack and cast any spell you know, instead of being confined to touch spells. I don't know that iterative attacks really make it more powerful, though, so no worries with regards to that.


Song of Fury (Su): At 7th level, a bladesinger improves on his blend of sword, blade and art. When using Song of Celerity, the duskblade may spend a spell slot to transform it into a Song of Fury. In a Song of Fury, all effects that would grant an additional melee attacks with a longsword, rapier or elven thinblade during a full attack (such as the haste spell or a speed weapon) grants one extra melee attack, as if the bladesinger was performing a full-attack. In addition, a Bladesinger can move his speed as a swift action during a Song of Fury. A Song of Fury lasts one round per level of the spell sacrificed.
This substitution feature replaces the Duskblade's armored mage (heavy shield) class feature.

This is basically getting something crazy awesome for nothing. The difference between a heavy shield and light shield is 1 AC.


Expanded Spell List (Ex): A bladesinger's training allows her to add a few spells not usually on the Duskblade list to his own spell list.
At 5th level, mirror image and blur are added to the 1st level Duskblade spell list. A bladesinger has one fewer spell 2nd level spell slot per day because of her focused training, however (only 1 2nd level spell at 5th level, for example).
At 9th level, haste and displacement are added to her 3rd Duskblade spell list. A bladesinger has one fewer spell 3rd level spell slot per day because of her focused training, however (only 1 3rd level spell at 9th level, for example).
At 13th level, greater mirror image and greater invisibility are added to her 4th level Duskblade spell list. A bladesinger has one fewer spell 4th level spell slot per day because of her focused training, however (only 1 4th level spell at 13th level, for example).

Bonus spells. I see you can now qualify for swiftblade at level 9. :smallwink: The power level may actually even out with the original at level 13, due to the loss of full attack arcane channeling. Maybe.

Overall, a well thought-out boost to the duskblade's power. Power increases are not necessarily a bad thing, mind: with this, it's probably sitting near the upper end of Tier 3 now, instead of squarely in the middle as it was before. Given that's my favorite power zone, my only criticism is that you might want to tone down Song of Fury just a little. Good job.

true_shinken
2010-12-10, 05:53 PM
Formatting request: Less wall o'text.
Hm, I don't really know how I could do that :/


Add 7th and 13th level, since there are class features then, too. You can probably drop 4th from the list, since weakened armor use is automatic.
Ooops. Thanks for pointing that out.


Do you want this to be open to half-elves? Elf-subtype allows for that, I believe.
Exactly, I want it to be open to anything elf-blooded. My main experience with Bladesingers is from the avariel bladesinger in Years of Rogue Dragon, so I don't want any elves not being able to go for this.


I'm not sure this section is needed at all, we all know how substitution levels work ... :smallbiggrin:
Hm, you think I should cut it? The only real point is that it tells you that anything with the elf subtype qualifies.



Seems fair. You'll have a little less AC early on, but better reflex. Once you get Armored Mage (medium), though, you've got swordsage-level AC and good saves all around. Might be a little much, but it's better to keep a similar balance point at level 1 than it is to worry about small boosts at 4+.
Yeah, this bugged me as soon as I wrote it. At first, I wanted to change Reflex to the good save instead of Fortitude... but then I realized it would be pain to do that as a substitution level. A 'grace-like' bonus to Reflex saves was my best bet.




That's interesting and again, probably more powerful than the original. Basically you can full attack and cast any spell you know, instead of being confined to touch spells. I don't know that iterative attacks really make it more powerful, though, so no worries with regards to that.
The main point of balance is that it requires you to wield a weapon one-handed (quite subpar; goodbye x2 Power Attack and +50% Str bonus to damage) and you can't use a shield.



This is basically getting something crazy awesome for nothing. The difference between a heavy shield and light shield is 1 AC.
Yeah, this bugged me as well. Maybe I should drop a use of Quick Cast as well to balance it. Dunno. But one of the points of balance here is that Song of Fury makes you burn like crazy through spell slots - and a bladesinger has less spell slots than the standard duskblade.



Bonus spells. I see you can now qualify for swiftblade at level 9. :smallwink:
Yay! Isn't that amazing? ^^ As a sidenote, all this spells are commonly used by Taegan (the bladesinger from YoRD).


The power level may actually even out with the original at level 13, due to the loss of full attack arcane channeling. Maybe.
Standard Duskblade has a damage potential a lot higher (two-handed, Power Attack, full attack channeling). Bladesinger has more mobility and more buffs. I think Bladesinger is a bit more powerful... but not much.


Overall, a well thought-out boost to the duskblade's power. Power increases are not necessarily a bad thing, mind: with this, it's probably sitting near the upper end of Tier 3 now, instead of squarely in the middle as it was before. Given that's my favorite power zone, my only criticism is that you might want to tone down Song of Fury just a little. Good job.
Oh, thanks. ^^
Any suggestions on how to tone down Song of Fury? My first draft had it cause fatigue, but then I though it was too harsh.

gkathellar
2010-12-10, 06:04 PM
Right, wasn't thinking about the two-handed weapon thing. That's a sizable penalty, and important to remember.

I think I was reading Song of Fury incorrectly. I thought it was effectively doubling the number of extra attacks from spells and effects, but it actually just lets you get those on a Song of Celerity, right? It's probably fine in that case.

Shyftir
2010-12-10, 06:10 PM
My first response is that this is definitely weaker than straight Duskblade, but looking at it more I think you trade some damage potential for more flexibility. I can dig that.

Still losing Arcane Channeling is a big hit to the Duskblade, as I see that as the classes biggest draw. Song of Fury would be a serious problem if Arcane Channeling was still in, as it is, I don't really think its too bad.

Another thing to remember that is for a front-line character there is little draw to playing an elf or half-elf. You are looking at either a -2 to Con or the generally lackluster Half-elf racial features. (Of course this changes with certain elven sub-races.)

Generally a pretty good concept. The Complete Warrior bladesinger was very disappointing and I like the idea of a more mobile duskblade.

true_shinken
2010-12-10, 07:08 PM
My first response is that this is definitely weaker than straight Duskblade, but looking at it more I think you trade some damage potential for more flexibility. I can dig that.
Yeah, that was what I was going for.


Still losing Arcane Channeling is a big hit to the Duskblade, as I see that as the classes biggest draw. Song of Fury would be a serious problem if Arcane Channeling was still in, as it is, I don't really think its too bad.
Initially I was worried that Song of Celerity was going to end up stronger than Arcane Channeling. If you go straight Bladesinger, it won't be a problem. With multiclassing (specially with stuff like, say, Ur-Priest) this becomes a big deal. Maybe it should be restricted to Duskblade spells, even though arcane channeling isn't. I really dunno.


Another thing to remember that is for a front-line character there is little draw to playing an elf or half-elf. You are looking at either a -2 to Con or the generally lackluster Half-elf racial features. (Of course this changes with certain elven sub-races.)
I thought about that as a disadvatage initially but there are many ways around that so I decided to not take it into consideration.


Generally a pretty good concept. The Complete Warrior bladesinger was very disappointing and I like the idea of a more mobile duskblade.
Oh, thanks a lot!

Fortuna
2010-12-12, 02:56 AM
Before I even begin this, let me say that I've never read the Duskblade, nor seen one in action, so all of this is both theoretical and unreliable. Still, here goes.

Bladesinger (Elven Duskblade)
Elves were the first race to blur the line between spellcaster and warrior with their duskblade tradition - the perfect marriage between spell and blade. Within the powerful elven empire that first spawned the duskblades, however, there were different schools. One of those schools are the basis for the bladesinging technique.
Bladesingers are not interested on using their spells or fighting prowess as simple tools. A bladesingers blend of dance, swordplay and arcane magic is an art. The name may be misleading and many thought bladesingers were ome kind of bard, singing while they fight. A bladesinger art is much too different from a bard's, though. They fight as if dancing, making their weapons sing as they slash through the air - or the enemy.
The lack of heavier armor is compensated by increased speed and gracious, flowing movements.
A bladeser's deadly dance is surely beautiful to watch, but also very dangerous to confront.

Nice fluff. Finesse, agility, and unification are interesting themes to build a gish around.

Hit Die: d8
Requirements: To take a bladesinger substitution level, a character
must have the elf subtype and be about to take her 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th or 13th level of Duskblade.

Rhubarb.


Class Skills:
Bladesingers substitution levels have the same class skills of the standard Duskblade class, plus Balance, Perform (dance) and Tumble.

A rarely-useful skill, a useless skill, and a useful skill. No problem, since it's only the sub levels.


Class Features:
All the following are class features of the bladesinger substitution level.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bladesinger is proficient with all martial weapons and the elven thinblade. A bladesinger is also proficient with light armor (but not with shields).
So a free weapon (with, I assume, good stats). Do regular Duskblades get medium armor? If not, this is really quite good. If so, then this is nothing special.

Bladesong (Ex): A bladesinger is trained to focus his attention on his blade and on his opponent. When wielding a longsword, elven thinblade or rapier on one hand and nothing in the other and wearing light armor or no armor, a bladesinger gains both a dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to her Intelligence bonus and a competence bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to her Intelligence bonus.
This substitution feature replaces the Duskblade's armored mage (light) class feature. A bladesinger gains armored mage (light) instead of armored mage (medium) at 4th level.
Cool. This seems to be a minor drop in AC in exchange for a Reflex boost. The fact that you can't wear mithral heavy armor stings quite a bit, but that doesn't come in until much later. For now, it seems balanced.


Song of Celerity (Su): A bladesinger keeps on hand on his sword, trained on his opponent, and casts spells with his free hand. As a full-attack action, a bladesinger may make a single melee attack with a one-handed longsword, rapier or elven thinblade and cast a spell with a casting time of one standard action or less. This action does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
At 6th level, you can make an addition melee attack with a -5 penalty with Song of Celerity. At 11th level, you can also make a second additional melee attack with a -10 penalty. At 16th level, you can also make a fourth additional melee attack with a -15 penalty.
This substitution feature replaces the Duskblade's arcane channeling class feature.

Woah. That's really quite nice. No AoO? Pick up True Strike and laugh your little head off, that's what I say. You might want to limit it to avoid that, because personally, I would be uncomfortable with a character getting +20 to any one attack in a full attack (you don't specify an order in which the actions are taken).

Song of Fury (Su): At 7th level, a bladesinger improves on his blend of sword, blade and art. When using Song of Celerity, the duskblade may spend a spell slot to transform it into a Song of Fury. In a Song of Fury, all effects that would grant an additional melee attacks with a longsword, rapier or elven thinblade during a full attack (such as the haste spell or a speed weapon) grants one extra melee attack, as if the bladesinger was performing a full-attack. In addition, a Bladesinger can move his speed as a swift action during a Song of Fury. A Song of Fury lasts one round per level of the spell sacrificed.
This substitution feature replaces the Duskblade's armored mage (heavy shield) class feature.

So for virtually nothing (a point of AC at best, if you haven't got a different source of shield bonus), you gain a bonus attack combined with your True Strike of LOL. Or whatever. I'm seeing more and more potential for dipping around, using this as a chassis on which you pile, f'rinstance, Sneak Attack with any of the appropriate Strike spells, True Strike and Power Attack (saving both a feat and your AC), or probably other combos that don't spring to mind. Still, this by itself probably isn't game-breaking, since those combos can pick up with just the Song of Celerity.

Expanded Spell List (Ex): A bladesinger's training allows her to add a few spells not usually on the Duskblade list to his own spell list.
At 5th level, mirror image and blur are added to the 1st level Duskblade spell list. A bladesinger has one fewer spell 2nd level spell slot per day because of her focused training, however (only 1 2nd level spell at 5th level, for example).
At 9th level, haste and displacement are added to her 3rd Duskblade spell list. A bladesinger has one fewer spell 3rd level spell slot per day because of her focused training, however (only 1 3rd level spell at 9th level, for example).
At 13th level, greater mirror image and greater invisibility are added to her 4th level Duskblade spell list. A bladesinger has one fewer spell 4th level spell slot per day because of her focused training, however (only 1 4th level spell at 13th level, for example).

Some neat spells there. I like this.

Summary: I'm worried by the things that Song of Celerity makes possible with a little dipping, either into or out of this class. You may want to limit its power quite a bit.

true_shinken
2010-12-12, 12:11 PM
Summary: I'm worried by the things that Song of Celerity makes possible with a little dipping, either into or out of this class. You may want to limit its power quite a bit.

Yeah, I'm also worried about this. The fact that Song of Celerity restritcs you to the least advantageous weapon style (one weapon on one hand, nothing in the other) was supposed to be kind of balancing point, but I still don't know. I made it scale based on Duskblade level exactly to make dipping less of a problem (you could dip Bladesinger on a Rogue build to get sneak attack, but you'd be basically restricting yourself to a single attack).
True Strike + Song of Celerity sounds really powerful at first, but remember that Bladesinger gains no damage bonuses whatsoever; he needs to get those from spells. If you do use True Strike + Song of Celerity, that's almost a guaranteed hit, but for low damage.

Thanks for the input, I really apreciate it.

fireinakasha
2010-12-12, 04:48 PM
Ooo ooo I love this! Great substitution levels, I might have to make a build around this.

As for comments: at first I was distressed about losing arcane channeling, but then I thought about it some more, and I really love Song of Celerity. I really love this, now that I've thought about it, and I don't think it's broken. My reasoning is that a) avoiding AoOs isn't that big a deal, since any decent caster could otherwise just 5 foot step until he can auto-succeed concentration to cast defensively, and b) a lot of really powerful spells could just be quickened, allowing for a full attack anyway, without song of celerity but with power attack. If you're really worried about balance issues when this substitution is used as a 3 level dip, you could amend Song of Celerity to only be usable with spells from the duskblade list. Dipping with rogue wouldn't become unbalanced, because you'd be losing casting levels and full BAB in exchange for not full sneak attack.

One piece of advice for you - consider clarifying the wording on Song of Fury. I realize now that it says that extra attacks from haste apply when you're making a full attack with Song of Celerity, but the way it's worded it took me a second to work that one out. I could see ways that someone skimming over it would instead think that it said haste gave you two extra attacks, instead of one.

I love this, for sure. IMO, it's a better implementation than the Bladesinger PrC (at least, I'd rather play this). And it means that in order to play a duskblade/swiftblade, I just have to convince my DM to accept this homebrew, instead of the more liberal interpretation of Extra Spell. :smallbiggrin:

true_shinken
2010-12-12, 05:01 PM
Ooo ooo I love this! Great substitution levels, I might have to make a build around this.
Wow, that is awesome! I'd love to know how this plays.


If you're really worried about balance issues when this substitution is used as a 3 level dip, you could amend Song of Celerity to only be usable with spells from the duskblade list.
I just don't know what to do here. A Bladesinger going into, say, Suel Arcanamach sounds nice, as does a Bladesinger/Spellthief build. You already have plenty of incentive to stay in Duskblade because of the way Song of Celerity scales. Limiting it to the Duskblade spell list would mean multiclassing would be mostly a non-option. I just don't know, really. Duskblade 3 (or 4)/Wizard X is still looking very very powerful in my mind.


One piece of advice for you - consider clarifying the wording on Song of Fury. I realize now that it says that extra attacks from haste apply when you're making a full attack with Song of Celerity, but the way it's worded it took me a second to work that one out. I could see ways that someone skimming over it would instead think that it said haste gave you two extra attacks, instead of one.
You're right, someone else pointed this out. I just clarified the wording and I believe it's a little more clear now. Thanks for the advice. ^^


I love this, for sure. IMO, it's a better implementation than the Bladesinger PrC (at least, I'd rather play this). And it means that in order to play a duskblade/swiftblade, I just have to convince my DM to accept this homebrew, instead of the more liberal interpretation of Extra Spell. :smallbiggrin:
Duskblade/Swiftblade is an old dream of mine to be sure.

fireinakasha
2010-12-12, 05:29 PM
I just don't know what to do here. A Bladesinger going into, say, Suel Arcanamach sounds nice, as does a Bladesinger/Spellthief build. You already have plenty of incentive to stay in Duskblade because of the way Song of Celerity scales. Limiting it to the Duskblade spell list would mean multiclassing would be mostly a non-option. I just don't know, really. Duskblade 3 (or 4)/Wizard X is still looking very very powerful in my mind.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. The multi-classing options are too cool to limit it, like you say, and as for Duskblade 3/Wizard X; consider what I said earlier, about how easily full casters can do the same thing. Also, while it would allow a Wizard to attack and cast whatever powerhouse spell he wants, also consider that most of the spells that could really break this will make physical attacks with a weapon kind of pointless, anyways ("you hit him with a sword and then death spelled him? why'd you bother with the sword?"). And he wouldn't get scaling iterative attacks.

In the end, Song of Celerity is basically just "make an attack (or a full attack, if you're single classed) and auto-quicken a spell". Not over powered, but still pretty cool.

Fortuna
2010-12-12, 06:39 PM
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. The multi-classing options are too cool to limit it, like you say, and as for Duskblade 3/Wizard X; consider what I said earlier, about how easily full casters can do the same thing. Also, while it would allow a Wizard to attack and cast whatever powerhouse spell he wants, also consider that most of the spells that could really break this will make physical attacks with a weapon kind of pointless, anyways ("you hit him with a sword and then death spelled him? why'd you bother with the sword?"). And he wouldn't get scaling iterative attacks.

In the end, Song of Celerity is basically just "make an attack (or a full attack, if you're single classed) and auto-quicken a spell". Not over powered, but still pretty cool.

Not quite true. You can use Song of Celerity ad cast a Quickened spell in the same round, which is honestly what really worries me. For a three level dip, you can cast two spells and make an attack, which seems a little too powerful for my liking.

true_shinken
2010-12-12, 06:47 PM
Not quite true. You can use Song of Celerity ad cast a Quickened spell in the same round, which is honestly what really worries me. For a three level dip, you can cast two spells and make an attack, which seems a little too powerful for my liking.
But it's an attack for low damage. 1d8+Str, that's about it. Though I'm pretty sure there is a way to break this, I just haven't found it yet.

fireinakasha
2010-12-12, 07:46 PM
But it's an attack for low damage. 1d8+Str, that's about it. Though I'm pretty sure there is a way to break this, I just haven't found it yet.

This. Also, bear in mind that there is nothing preventing the original Duskblade from doing the same thing. In fact, since arcane channeling is only a standard action, you could cast a quickened spell as a swift action, cast a spell with a move action casting time, and then cast another spell and attack, as your standard action. That's three spells per turn, while Song of Celerity (a full round action) is only two.

Also, an actual quickened spell uses a slot four levels higher. So sure, you can fling two spells plus an attack in one round, but one of those spells is a low level spell in a high level slot. You'd be burning up an awful lot of high-level spell slots for less potent effects, and since you'd be giving up levels of Wizard to do this, you wouldn't have as large an amount of high level spells to burn through.

Draz74
2010-12-13, 12:24 AM
Also, an actual quickened spell uses a slot four levels higher. So sure, you can fling two spells plus an attack in one round, but one of those spells is a low level spell in a high level slot. You'd be burning up an awful lot of high-level spell slots for less potent effects, and since you'd be giving up levels of Wizard to do this, you wouldn't have as large an amount of high level spells to burn through.

This. I don't think you'll see many Duskblade 3 / Wizard X builds using Quicken Spell and Song of Celerity in conjunction, because any Wizard X who cares about Quickening their spells won't stand for losing three caster levels.

Unless the Wizard is using metamagic reducer cheese, of course ... but that's really more a problem with metamagic reducers than with this Duskblade.

(Unless ... Ultimate Magus? But that's not really a martial class, so I'm not sure it getting to make an attack is very significant. Someone who knows UM better than me should look into it, though.)