Monks - quick fix or major rewrite?

[JonestheSpy]

So, it's pretty much universally acknowledged that the Monk class is just flat-out badly designed and doesn't hold its own too well in most parties (Crow's recent beginning-to-epic party analysis is an excellent example of this). Lots of folks have suggested various fixes, from the fairly minor to Fax Celestis's major revamp complete with tons of optional powers, a Ki point pool, etc.

Curious as to the preferences of folks who do opt for changing the character when playing (either as a DM or as a player hoping to convince your DM on the modifications...)

Myself, I think it can be kept pretty simple. Full BAB, quicker bonus AC progression, Flurry as a standard action instead of full-round, an option to substitute Wisdom for Strength for Attack bonus, maybe one or two other tweaks. Of course, I tend to run games on the low-power, low magic side, so a monk's other abilities have more of a chance to shine.

Opinions?

[Aharon]

In the campaign I DM, an NPC is a Tomes-Monk found here (http://code.google.com/p/awesometome/downloads/detail?name=Tome 0.6.1.pdf). It is a major rewrite with lots of powers.

[Marnath]

I find it unlikely you haven't heard it suggested, but for completionist sake I will mention that unarmed swordsage is supposed to be a good fix. I wouldn't know, as I've never tried it.

[Ravens_cry]

Though still as MAD as a Hatter, Monks get effective full BAB and CMB and CMD as class features, which helps make things less a flurry of whiffs, increased skill points, as well as a Ki pool in Pathfinder. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk)
It makes them at least workable in fairly low optimization games.

[Saph]

The Pathfinder Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk) is okay. Not a powerhouse, but the monk in our party managed to impress the other players last session. (Took a Huge elemental from 2/3 HP to dead in one full attack. Even with damage reduction, 6 attacks per round hurts.)
Monk/Ninja attack!

[Doughnut Master]

Full BAB helps a lot. You can actually hit things, hooray!

For AC, we're trying an interesting little trick in our campaign: With Improved Evasion, the Monk no longer has an AC, but rolls a reflex save to dodge attacks. Anything that normally affects AC goes into the reflex save. (Just don't double count Dex bonus). It makes things pretty exciting.

Side note:
With full BAB: Monk/Barbarian---> Hella fun.

[Kobold-Bard]

Full BAB
Flurry At the End of a Charge
All Wis Stuff is now based on Dex
Quivering Palm is usable 1/day/5HD
Slow Fall is now Feather Fall>Something (maybe Cloud Walking)>Flight
Usually give them a Soulblade type weapon boost
Misc stuff like making TotS&M into a sort of (Ex) charm/animation effect, depending on what they talk to.

Either that or use a Tattoed Monk Base Class someone on the boards made.

[Kylarra]

One novel fix that I've heard of is simply giving them the PsyWar progression (admittedly the Tashalatora feat is also a "fix" and a decent one, but this would just make it inherent).

[Callista]

Full BAB is a quick fix that I've seen work quite well. I didn't bother to houserule it last time I ran a game, but I'll add it to the list next time I do.

[Elfin]

I know I've been beaten to the punch, but...unarmed swordsage. It's really a very clean and simple fix.

[Tiki Snakes]

I know I've been beaten to the punch, but...unarmed swordsage. It's really a very clean and simple fix.

You have infact been Swordsaged by Marnath. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

Tashalatora and USS are the quickest fixes. Which is quicker depends on whether you understand ToB or psionics more easily.

[AnswersQuestion]

This form (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Monk,_Tome_(3.5e_Class))is pretty nice, too.

[molten_dragon]

I don't bother fixing them, I just ask people to play a swordsage instead.

[Kurald Galain]

Absent the Tome of Battle, playing an unarmed fighter or barbarian also works.

[Ravens_cry]

This form (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Monk,_Tome_(3.5e_Class))is pretty nice, too.
Ack! The Dand Wiki, get it away, get it away! Unclean, unclean!

[Elfin]

You have infact been Swordsaged by Marnath. :smallwink:

Quite.
I can, though, vouch for its effectiveness, having seen one in play.

[Runestar]

Guess not even greater whallop can save the monk, attractive as 12d8 fists may be. :smallamused:

Myself, yeah, I just use a swordsage.

[JonestheSpy]

Yeah, yeah, mention monk and a crowd of folks chime in Swordsage, just like if anyone discusses dwarves you get a chorus of people declaring how much they hate elves. I'll just file those as votes for "major rewrite".

Mixing in some kind of psychic warrior stuff would be cool - the two do synergize quite well and seem like two sides of the same coin, really.

Another single tweak that could make the high level monk a lot more fun: make the Dimension Door ability a move action instead of a standard one. Bamf!

[Godskook]

Guess not even greater whallop can save the monk, attractive as 12d8 fists may be. :smallamused:

Thing is, the RAW fixes(Tashalatoran, UASS) are both quite capable of getting level 20 monk damage, so the attraction of 12d8 fists isn't an attraction to monk-unique ability.

[Eldariel]

Another single tweak that could make the high level monk a lot more fun: make the Dimension Door ability a move action instead of a standard one. Bamf!

More. Than. Once. Per. Day.

I tossed together a Monk Rewrite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85892) long ago which you could really file under "minor rewrite"; what it does is give Monk full BAB, ability to always Flurry when attacking, Pounce later on and extra uses of the normally daily abilities (Teleport, Etherealness, etc.). Seemed sensible enough. But really, it's just a limited version of Psionic Monk 'cause let's face it, fluff-wise Monk == Psionic.

Only difference is that it was printed before Psionics were in print and thus instead of being Psionic, it's a weird magical melee thingy (really, Monk is a Magical Warrior as written; just doesn't get much of the Magic-part). So yeah, easy rewrite: give it Psychic Warrior power progression. Feel free to remove now-redundant abilities like Slow Fall, Wholeness of Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Empty Body and so on; all of them can be done better with Powers, and are effectively just excess lines of text anyways. Done.


So I'd vote "quick fix" but with the cave-at that the fix would be rather comprehensive; just simple. "Add X, Remove X, Y and Z" or "Give More Of Everything". Or yeah, Unarmed Swordsage; it's the exact same "Magical Warrior" archetype, but it's designed competently. Instead of getting few spells 1/day, it has its own unique, clearly magical and yet different ability set to draw upon.

[Runestar]

I like the idea of building upon its stunning fists ability. For example, quivering palm could consume say, 2-3 stunning fist uses per activation, instead of being usable just 1/week? I think there should also be another ability which targets will, so monks have a recourse when facing foes with good fort saves.

I feel they should be able to just dim-door at-will as a move action (but they can still act after moving). Maybe at higher lvs, they can dim-door as a swift action, effectively letting them move and still full-attack. Hey, if swordsages can do it...

I suppose it isn't too much hassle to request for a greater magic weapon/fang buff from the party caster, but I would rather they also get +1 enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes every 4 lvs or something. Amulet of mighty fists is just way too costly. :smallmad:

What do you all think of the decisive strike variant in PHB2? I like how it reduces the time spent on rolling multiple attacks, even though it seems weaker than flurry (especially since it does not stack with haste). :smalltongue:

[T.G. Oskar]

I like the idea of building upon its stunning fists ability. For example, quivering palm could consume say, 2-3 stunning fist uses per activation, instead of being usable just 1/week? I think there should also be another ability which targets will, so monks have a recourse when facing foes with good fort saves.

Well, the thing is that Quivering Palm has to be divorced from Stunning Fist because the 3.5 version of the Monk separated the stunning attack class ability from the class itself and added that to the Stunning Fist ability. Meaning that, if you replace Stunning Fist at 1st level, you couldn't use Quivering Palm.

Once per day, with the option of expending Stunning Fist attempts, though, is quite reasonable enough. It makes those whom use Stunning Fist a bit more useful, while keeping quivering palm usable by any monk. The big problems in here with Quivering Palm (at least) are: 1/week, needs a Fort save, requires succeeding on the attack. Perhaps you can make it Str-based, or Wis-based if having Stunning Fist.


I feel they should be able to just dim-door at-will as a move action (but they can still act after moving). Maybe at higher lvs, they can dim-door as a swift action, effectively letting them move and still full-attack. Hey, if swordsages can do it...

Technically, you can move and attack with Abundant Fist. It just requires the Sun School tactical feat!

...Erm, yeah. Dim Door at will is something that, aside from Swordsages (whom supposedly have a recharging method that takes 1 full round action that's not Adaptive Style), something like that was anathema to devs at the beginning of 3.5 and still touchy for late devs. Most people, though, have suggested "half-speed steps", or the ability to move more than 5 ft. as a free action once per round, usually up to half your land speed (which would stack with the Monk's enhancement speed, meaning you can move quite freely and flurry). Dim Door as a swift action means you can strike someone from around 100 ft. or more with a flurry...which even barbarians would claim as broken; let alone shadow-pouncers whom essentially do something like that already.


I suppose it isn't too much hassle to request for a greater magic weapon/fang buff from the party caster, but I would rather they also get +1 enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes every 4 lvs or something. Amulet of mighty fists is just way too costly. :smallmad:

Again: early dev's idea. They thought that a magical weapon without the enhancement was enough, and that the Amulet would be something that they'd easily find, much like they thought that Clerics (or Druids) would buff them out of friendship, instead of becoming CoDzillas.


What do you all think of the decisive strike variant in PHB2? I like how it reduces the time spent on rolling multiple attacks, even though it seems weaker than flurry (especially since it does not stack with haste). :smalltongue:

It's debatable. It's weaker than flurry in that it only allows one attack, but a Tash monk with spiked chain and a AoO set-up exploits that really easily. Basically, it's to Flurry of Blows what Power Attack is to pouncer builds; it multiplies the damage these can do. Except, of course, that you need to have brutally good stats anyways.

[Lord.Sorasen]

One.. Well, not really a fix, but a way around things that I haven't seen mentioned yet, is to take just a couple monk levels and then go ahead with something you find more fitting... I should mention that Complete Adventurer gave a slew of new monk/whatever cross classing feats for this exact purpose.