3.5 Villain level

[TinselCat]

I am planning on creating a 3.5 campaign from scratch. It will have potentially 3-5 PCs. They will start low-level, but not all the way at level 1. I'm planning on starting them at level 4, but that might change depending on the recommendations I get.

In designing the main villain and his minions, I need to know what level to start them at. There is one big bad, and somewhere between 3-4 lesser villains, all working together. 'Lesser' here means 'more than enough to kill the party at their starting level', but by no means are they on par with the big bad.

This campaign is designed to last a long time, and by killing the big bad, it will probably be the end of the campaign. No, it's not the only goal of the PCs, but it is a solid achievement and an appropriate place to end, if that is what we want to do.

By no means do I want this to become an epic level campaign, none of us are experienced enough to try that.

So, I would ask for recommendations for the levels of the big bad and the lesser villains. The big bad will be probably some kind of magic-user, and the others will be split even. I'll probably make one a bard for grins and giggles.

One more thing to note: these will be 3.5 basic classes only, PCs and NPCs. I might allow some branching out (prestige classes? haven't decided) later in the campaign, but for the sanity of my players, I'm keeping it simpler.

Thanks for the help from all you more experienced players and DMs.

[Saph]

The best way to answer this is to look at how the CR system works.

The party are supposed to be able to routinely defeat something of CR equal to their level. A CR between +1 and +3 above than their level is a challenging fight. A CR of +4 is an even match - as in, a 50% chance of a TPK. A CR of +5 or higher is generally hopeless.

Assuming that you want the climactic battle with the BBEG to be very difficult, the point at which the PCs will start to be able to take on the BBEG is about when his CR is +4 higher than their level.

So if you have the following setup:

BBEG: 18th-level (CR 18)
Lesser Villain 1: 15th-level (CR 15)
Lesser Villain 2: 14th-level (CR 14)
Lesser Villain 3: 13th-level (CR 13)
Lesser Villain 4: 12th-level (CR 12)

then the PCs will be able to start taking on the lesser villains at about levels 8-9, and should be able to confront the BBEG at levels 14-15.

So to figure out what level you need the BBEG to be, you first need to figure out what level you want the PCs to be when they fight him. Note also that you can have the BBEG gain a couple of levels during the campaign, but probably not too many (you want the players to feel like they're catching up on him).

[TinselCat]

Excellent! Now that I know what to consider/look for when picking the levels, it'll be much easier. I think that example setup is a great place to start. 14th-15th level is around early 7th level spells...gives them some good saves and opportunities to collect feats/weapons/useful things and optimize their strategy.... Thanks!

[awa]

i would advise against using cr to try and determine this. A level 20 wizard is far more dangerous then a multi class samurai monk. but as a rough guide you should decide at what level you want the game to end and then make the final boss a couple levels higher then that.

personally i dislike the sorting algorithm of evil i prefer to make all the final boss top men relatively similar in power but. say the first time they fight one of them it is one of them vrs the whole party. The next one has some minion back up so its him and his minions vrs the party. and after that the villains have taken notice of the party so they send two of them to fight the party at once you get the idea.

[TinselCat]

That's interesting to consider. I do like the sorting algorithm of evil because it's fairly reasonable: the lesser bosses were all hired/recruited at different times, from different circumstances, and are very distinct people. They will be different levels, but the players won't have to take them down in any particular order. They'll have the smarts to do research and I'll make sure to have them gain information on their respective levels. (i.e. they'll learn in passing that Guy X is stronger than Guy Y but they both defer to Guy Z). I won't strong-arm them into any particular order, but the opportunities they are presented with will probably be ranking them weakest to strongest.

But I like the idea of stacking the numbers of the encounters. The circumstances there will depend on how the players try to manipulate the terms of the encounter, but I can definitely arrange some fun for them to deal with.

[Grelna the Blue]

It's probably unnecessary to mention this, but keep in mind they don't actually have to fight or thwart the minions upon first encountering them. The more interaction they've had, the more real these NPCs will be to them. The 6th level players in my game have actually gone on a couple minor quests for one of the minions (a half-dragon Cleric11/Fighter2) of my campaign's BBEG. They don't know that Warfather Blackscales is a minion of anybody--they just think he's freaking huge and scary and are glad he's on their side. :smallamused:

[Godskook]

Here's the setup I'm working with in my RL game(spoilered in case my PCs come through):

1.Tarrasque(upgraded) is a vital part of the ecosystem that has been forcibly removed by NPCs, who created a city around his body, since nobody is high enough leveled to kill him.

2.Said city, Kintarra, produces many high-level NPCs who all have different goals, but a singular uniting factor. ECL 8-14.

2a.Among them is a "guardians of the runes" police force that actively work to make sure the runes that made the Tarrasque defeatable stay in place, lest he get out. The 'grunts' of this force are optimized dragonborn warforged barbarian/totemists, ECL 6, and that's the grunts. These guys are hot on the PCs' tails under mistaken pretense, and I'm hoping for an 'incident' in terms of my fun, and hoping not for PC survivability. They *will* take the PCs alive if possible.

2b.Dominic Alheera, a level 14 wizard, who specializes in planar and teleportation magics. He is originator of the ritual that brought the PCs into this setting, and views them as guinea pigs in an experiment he was 'forced' to run by the guys who blackmailed him into scribing the ritual. Conveniently, his experiment, if successful will bring him revenge for that slight. If the PCs ever meet with him, he'll tear the magic from their bones forcefully, in order to learn what fascinating things he can.

3.The Heralds of Oblivion is mindflayer organization whose goal is to bring about the Emerald Legion. They're not going to 'get' there, but this'll give them plenty of interaction for the PCs to deal with. And admittedly, if the PCs fail to pose a threat, a low-grade legionairre or two would be a fun component to the setting.

4.The Dragons are a greedy, survivalist group who, for the first time in millenia, lack a predator(Big-T, above). They can now grow older and wiser, allowing them to further pursuits other than "survival of the species". The power-grap is epic, and is only just beginning. The common-folk aren't even well-versed in Dragon-lore since until now, their low-profile is what kept them alive long enough to procreate. The PCs are about to go face a low-CR(CR 5-8 ish) one right now who is making claim to territory, including a goblin tribe.

5.The Wakers of the Beast, a true cult, who is obsessed with freeing the powerful Tarrasque in the most immediate(and thus disruptive) way possible. The PCs will likely oppose them simply on the principle of "let's move the civilians first", but I never know.

6.A small-time jewel theif, a bard by the name of Isaiah Mustafa. He's an ECL 3 Bard, intent on get-rich quick schemes. The players were foolish enough to leave him not only alive, but to his own devices, and now he's conspiring to kill the men who ruined his 'luck'. While originally planned as a minor speed-bump, he's now developing into the group's first or second little bad evil guy.

Party ECL? 2, at the moment(started at level 1). However, I gave them 3 'temp HD'(now only 2), that give full BAB, good saves, and maxed HP, but no skills/feats. This was the 'cushion' so that I could toss a wolf-pack at them without worrying about the "but that's a CR 5 encounter!" factor. Its helped with the survivability of the low levels, and made narrative sense in-game too. And since it'll evaporate by the time they're level 4, it gives me a steady learning curve to work in how challenging things are without outright killing the party. (At first, the damage doesn't seem so bad, but then they realize that healing is in incredibly short supply at level 2).

[Runestar]

Do note however, that past lower-mid levels (as early as lv7+), npcs using solely class lvs tend to have inflated crs (ie: they may not be as challenging as their cr lets on).

This disparity varies somewhat from class to class, but as a rule of thumb, I would recommend cr=2/3 class lvs for non/partial-casters. Casters face another issue (lack of hp), so you may want to take advantage of the non-associated class rule to make them more sturdy.

[TinselCat]

So I'll need to put the non-casters at a higher class level than the casters. That's very doable. And providing the casters with shielding minions with high hit dice should also be very easy. Or adding Toughness a few times. Or just sticking a caster and non-caster mini-boss in the same room together. Got it.