A Question about Sigil [3.5]

[CockroachTeaParty]

I ask anyone more knowledgeable about Sigil, the Outlands, or the Great Wheel in general:

What exactly does it take to reach Sigil? What spells are needed? What knowledge?

What would you say is a fair Knowledge (the planes) DC to know that Sigil exists?

Would Plane Shift allow access to Sigil, or would you simply arrive off-target in the Outlands?

What's the most accurate, fastest method for traveling there?

(This is assuming the standard 3.5 setting [Greyhawk])

[arguskos]

What exactly does it take to reach Sigil? What spells are needed? What knowledge?
Note that my responses are based on the older understanding of Sigil, since it was barely mentioned in 3.5.

Sigil cannot be reached directly by Plane Shift. You need to find a known portal to the City of Doors, something easily accomplished by those who know who to talk to about planar travel, since Sigil is decently well known.


What would you say is a fair Knowledge (the planes) DC to know that Sigil exists?
Between 20-30, IMO. Depends on how heavily the planes feature in your games, really.


Would Plane Shift allow access to Sigil, or would you simply arrive off-target in the Outlands?
No, it doesn't. Sigil can't be directly ported into, save through a portal linking there directly.


What's the most accurate, fastest method for traveling there?
Find a portal there. The best way to do this is to find the Infinite Staircase, and ask a traveler on the Stairs which way is the closest door to Sigil. Alternatively, go to Union or the City of Brass and pay someone there to tell you where a known, stable portal is to Sigil.

EDIT: Understand, I'm not trying to be flippant, it's just that most of this was left to the DM to determine. Portals to the City of Doors can take almost any form you want, and are intended to be known by those in the know. A portal to Sigil would be a well-guarded thing on the Prime Material, since Sigil is a useful place to have to fall back on. On the planes, it's far easier to get to Sigil, since inter-planar travel is so very common.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Hmm... Seems like one of those 'difficult at first, but easier once you get the hang of it' kind of things.

What about Union? Isn't it its own demiplane? Could you simply Plane Shift there?

I'm asking this because I'm trying to figure out a method for characters away from civilization, but with access to Plane Shift, to go to any large extraplanar destination with a multitude of useful shops, stores, services, etc., the better to spend ill-gotten gains.

[arguskos]

Hmm... Seems like one of those 'difficult at first, but easier once you get the hang of it' kind of things.

What about Union? Isn't it its own demiplane? Could you simply Plane Shift there?
As far as I'm aware, Union has no such prohibition on shifting into it. Sigil has a unique "you can't do this" exemption. Could be wrong though. *shrug*


I'm asking this because I'm trying to figure out a method for characters away from civilization, but with access to Plane Shift, to go to any large extraplanar destination with a multitude of useful shops, stores, services, etc., the better to spend ill-gotten gains.
Possible solution: A mercane trader, this one known for deals like the following, ports to *them* with a deal. He'll serve as their proxy buyer for gear in Union/Sigil, but he charges a premium. He will take their cash and deliver their gear, but it's slightly more expensive than average (say, 5-10%). The mercanes know the value of patronizing powerful people. :smallwink:

Another possible solution: Shift to the Elemental Plane of Fire, go to the City of Brass, and pay someone to tell you the location of a known and stable portal to Sigil's Great Marketplace is. Shift to that location, go through, do your shopping, leave, and Shift back to wherever you are.

Also... how do they have Plane Shift but not Teleport? :smallconfused:

[CockroachTeaParty]

Also... how do they have Plane Shift but not Teleport? :smallconfused:

They're level 9. The cleric has access to Plane Shift (earlier than arcane casters), and the arcanist is a sorcerer (no 5th level spells yet).

[arguskos]

They're level 9. The cleric has access to Plane Shift (earlier than arcane casters), and the arcanist is a sorcerer (no 5th level spells yet).
Kinda surprised they didn't buy a few scrolls of teleport, just for critical moments. *shrug* Oh well. That's what Sigil is for! XD

[CockroachTeaParty]

Kinda surprised they didn't buy a few scrolls of teleport, just for critical moments. *shrug* Oh well. That's what Sigil is for! XD

They were shipwrecked on an island, and were level 5 and much poorer before the journey began (they're playing Savage Tide).

Soon they'll have access to Teleport, but they're itching to spend some of their treasure.

[arguskos]

They were shipwrecked on an island, and were level 5 and much poorer before the journey began (they're playing Savage Tide).
Oh. Yeah, ok, that's a fair point then!


Soon they'll have access to Teleport, but they're itching to spend some of their treasure.
Yeah, I'd roll with either shifting to the City of Brass and going from there (details can be found in the Planar Handbook on the City of Brass, I recommend it as a good source of info on that planar city), or handwaving that some nearby ruin or town or something or whatever has a hidden portal to the Infinite Staircase that is triggered by some random heirloom of the PCs (or some other little trinket). The Staircase is a hella good adventure magnet too.

Also, worth noting is that one cannot shift OUT of Sigil (teleportation and plane shifting don't work at all in the city), so to leave they'll basically have to get out the way they came in.

[classy one]

If you are a DM, you can make anything a portal.

IIRC you need a portal and a key. The portal is usually a threshold of some kind. The key is more specific. It can be an item, an emotion, a thought, literally anything. Basically, the portal maybe well known, but it doesn't mean everyone crossing it will be taken to Sigil.
Also, most portals are not permanent or even two-way. This means even if you do know of a portal and the key for Sigil that you aunt's friend's roomate used 1 month ago, doesn't mean you can waltz in there and do the same.

All of this is set up so that the only way to reliably get to Sigil is if your DM wants to to go their. This is all 2ed fluff from the campaign settings. There is an little known 3.0 spell found in the Stronghold builder book called create portal, and it literally let's you create portals. It doesn't mention Sigil however, so it should be assumed that the outlands would nullify the spell.

[Xefas]

I'm asking this because I'm trying to figure out a method for characters away from civilization, but with access to Plane Shift, to go to any large extraplanar destination with a multitude of useful shops, stores, services, etc., the better to spend ill-gotten gains.

Since your main questions have already been answered, I just want to point out that there are other places to go shopping than Sigil. Sigil is probably the best, but there are alternatives.

Mercuria (The First Heaven), for instance, is described in the Planescape Campaign Setting as being a massive hub of trade throughout the planes. Anyone was welcome to come and ply their business, though with roaming legions of archons, one can assume swindling, con artistry, or the darker trades (slaves, souls, etc) would be less prevalent there.

If you do want some of the shadier stuff, Dis (The Second Hell) is certainly going to have it. I don't know if 3rd edition changed whether you could Plane Shift to higher/lower levels of the planes than the primary one, but if it's like 2nd ed, you can't. Still, if you have lots of cash to spend, I imagine it wouldn't be hard to secure paperwork to travel from the Gates of Hell straight to Dis (which, depending on your party composition, it might be hilarious for them to realize that they're welcome guests of Hell if they're there to stimulate the economy with vast piles of adventurin' loot).

[arguskos]

Even though I'm hardly the OP, I just LURVE ME SOME PLANAR STUFFZ!

Since your main questions have already been answered, I just want to point out that there are other places to go shopping than Sigil. Sigil is probably the best, but there are alternatives.
Oh, indubitably. There's a few places arguably better than Sigil too, such as the City of Brass (for slaves, since it has a massive slave market, last I checked) and Union (which apparently has a larger population and is entirely dedicated to trade, whereas Sigil is not).

Sigil's just the easiest to deal with and the least questioning of the average adventurer's "oh, uh, we just slaughtered two entire societies worth of goblinoids and took their stuff, you cool with buying it?" reasoning behind their loot acquisition. :smallcool:


Mercuria (The First Heaven), for instance, is described in the Planescape Campaign Setting as being a massive hub of trade throughout the planes. Anyone was welcome to come and ply their business, though with roaming legions of archons, one can assume swindling, con artistry, or the darker trades (slaves, souls, etc) would be less prevalent there.
To be fair, there's a lot of things you can't get in Mercuria. For instance, you'd have issues acquiring any weapons with enchantments deemed "hazardous" or "potentially foul" by the natives. Further, they'd probably dislike buying the potentially evil stuff the adventurer's want to sell. Of course, if you need holy ANYTHING, there's no better market in the planes!

Also, The Seven Mounting Heavens has like the coolest currency ever, chime bells, crystals that tinkle and jingle when jostled about, meaning that you're musical as you walk around. Awesome. :smallcool:


If you do want some of the shadier stuff, Dis (The Second Hell) is certainly going to have it. I don't know if 3rd edition changed whether you could Plane Shift to higher/lower levels of the planes than the primary one, but if it's like 2nd ed, you can't. Still, if you have lots of cash to spend, I imagine it wouldn't be hard to secure paperwork to travel from the Gates of Hell straight to Dis (which, depending on your party composition, it might be hilarious for them to realize that they're welcome guests of Hell if they're there to stimulate the economy with vast piles of adventurin' loot).
Actually, there's a different fiendish market I'd suggest, one a bit more amenable to travelers. Dis, while functional, is a bit too paranoid and hard to traverse, what with the walls being dangerously heated and all that.

Instead, if you're in the mood for sin, go hit up Azzagrat, the triplicate realm of Grazz't, Demon Prince. The city is known for being quite friendly to adventurer's willing to spend coin, and is an excellent locale to purchase... less than savory objects.

[Tvtyrant]

I would suggest not going to either the Abyss or Hell at level 10; your still easy pickings at this point. If you want shopping for really evil items I would suggest the fields of Ghenna. They specialize in selling to the highest bidder, and they produce Blood War weapons for the other fiends.

Hell is actually safer then the Abyss though; they aren't in the business of breaking contracts, while the demons are.

[arguskos]

Hell is actually safer then the Abyss though; they aren't in the business of breaking contracts, while the demons are.
Interestingly enough though, Azzagrat is pretty safe. Grazz't recognizes the benefit of adventurer patronage, and demands they be left relatively alone.

Damn I love Grazz't, that magnificent bastard. :smallamused:

[CockroachTeaParty]

I just realized that while they could get to an extraplanar shopping spot with Plane Shift, they would be unable to return to the island with any reliability (arriving 5 to 500 miles away, potentially in the ocean, etc.). So I'll have to think of something else... A guide to a portal, perhaps, or a mercane... or perhaps a guy in a blue trench coat that inexplicably appears next to blue torches, and says nothing but "What are ya buyin'?' and 'What are ya sellin'?"

[Xefas]

Further, they'd probably dislike buying the potentially evil stuff the adventurer's want to sell.

Actually, I'd think direct representatives of Celestia would be especially inclined to buy all of your unholy greatswords, necronomicons, and assorted orphan-powered doomsday weapons specifically because either:

1) They can cleanse it and turn it into, if not a holy analogue, then at least a non-evil version of the item.
2) If it cannot be cleansed they can safely dispose of it or stick it in a hidden vault somewhere so it isn't going back into the hands of the forces of evil.

I mean, why would they want you to go to the Lower Planes to sell your evil stuff? It'll just go right back to being used for evil.


Instead, if you're in the mood for sin, go hit up Azzagrat, the triplicate realm of Grazz't, Demon Prince.

This suggestion wouldn't happen to have anything to do with your personal preference for demons, would it? :smalltongue:

Don't listen to him! Sure, it's more convenient to get to, but do you really want to be funding that side of the Blood War? And while Dis may be a place of insufferable heat where the floor you walk upon is near-molten iron, at least it doesn't hold the dubious honor of highest density of venereal disease per square inch that Azzagrat does.

[Tvtyrant]

Or you could do it as a Fairy Fey February Fair. The Fey create a bunch of Magnificent Mansions after plane shifting to the island and sell a lot of goods from across the cosmos. The reason they are on the island is to test if there is a market. If so it will be made permanent, if not they move on.

Essentially its a cross planar trade expo. Make it so there are tents selling everything; halfcelestial/halffiendish creatures bred for sale as novelties, Decanters of Endless Water, magic tickets that shift you to major cities across the planes (Plane Tickets :smallwink:), magic weapons and bowls that make food and everything you can imagine, and its all horribly overpriced.

Remember, the money is always right!

[arguskos]

I just realized that while they could get to an extraplanar shopping spot with Plane Shift, they would be unable to return to the island with any reliability (arriving 5 to 500 miles away, potentially in the ocean, etc.). So I'll have to think of something else... A guide to a portal, perhaps, or a mercane... or perhaps a guy in a blue trench coat that inexplicably appears next to blue torches, and says nothing but "What are ya buyin'?' and 'What are ya sellin'?"
I stand by the Infinite Staircase.


I mean, why would they want you to go to the Lower Planes to sell your evil stuff? It'll just go right back to being used for evil.
Cause the Lower Planes will pay you decent amounts of cash money, whereas the Upper Planes are going to offer to take it from you in exchange for not "purifying" your "wicked" soul. Those archons... not very gentle, let me tell you what.


This suggestion wouldn't happen to have anything to do with your personal preference for demons, would it? :smalltongue:
Hey, look, if you're gonna use stuff I told you in confidence, we can't be partners! :smallyuk::smalltongue:


Don't listen to him! Sure, it's more convenient to get to, but do you really want to be funding that side of the Blood War? And while Dis may be a place of insufferable heat where the floor you walk upon is near-molten iron, at least it doesn't hold the dubious honor of highest density of venereal disease per square inch that Azzagrat does.
Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of you lying so damn much. Every blood knows that Azzagrat doesn't hold that honor, Malcanthet's realm does. :smallwink: Grazz't just visits there. A lot. >_> :P

[Jothki]

I just realized that while they could get to an extraplanar shopping spot with Plane Shift, they would be unable to return to the island with any reliability (arriving 5 to 500 miles away, potentially in the ocean, etc.). So I'll have to think of something else... A guide to a portal, perhaps, or a mercane... or perhaps a guy in a blue trench coat that inexplicably appears next to blue torches, and says nothing but "What are ya buyin'?' and 'What are ya sellin'?"

Is there any reason they'd want to return to the island instead of any other arbitrary spot, in any other arbitrary prime material plane?

Man, that'd be a nasty thing to do to a DM.

[arguskos]

Is there any reason they'd want to return to the island instead of any other arbitrary spot, in any other arbitrary prime material plane?
Hate to burst a bubble here, but, there is a snag with using Plane Shift to go to alternate Primes. See, Plane Shift has a specific focus component, one that almost no one actually remembers, and that actually gets around the spell component pouch issue (and Eschew Materials, which only obviates material components, not foci). Plane Shift requires that you have a small metal rod, made of an emblematic material to the place you're going to. Metal rods don't fit in pouches (meaning that, by the definition of spell component pouches given on the SRD, they aren't in said pouch of stupidity) and you need a specific one for a Prime Material you've never been to.

Good luck. :smalltongue:

Also, this is why I like getting Plane Shift as a spell-like ability. Spell-like's don't require material/focus components. :smallcool:

[hangedman1984]

The best way to do this is to find the Infinite Staircase

Pardon my ignorance, but the infinite staircase?

[Claudius Maximus]

I think Princess Peach has one.


Hate to burst a bubble here, but, there is a snag with using Plane Shift to go to alternate Primes. See, Plane Shift has a specific focus component, one that almost no one actually remembers, and that actually gets around the spell component pouch issue (and Eschew Materials, which only obviates material components, not foci). Plane Shift requires that you have a small metal rod, made of an emblematic material to the place you're going to. Metal rods don't fit in pouches (meaning that, by the definition of spell component pouches given on the SRD, they aren't in said pouch of stupidity) and you need a specific one for a Prime Material you've never been to.

Good luck. :smalltongue:

Also, this is why I like getting Plane Shift as a spell-like ability. Spell-like's don't require material/focus components. :smallcool:

I think the rods in question do in fact fit in a spell component pouch, simply because there's no information contradicting that general rule. What says that it as to be the same kind of "rod" used for magic items (Which are admittedly 5 pounds)?

[arguskos]

Pardon my ignorance, but the infinite staircase?
Exactly what it sounds like. :smallwink:

The Infinite Staircase is a planar phenomena that is quite literally an infinite staircase with portals alongside its length going anywhere and everywhere. It's said that if you search long enough along it, you'll find your heart's desire somewhere on the infinite landings.


I think the rods in question do in fact fit in a spell component pouch, simply because there's no information contradicting that general rule. What says that it as to be the same kind of "rod" used for magic items (Which are admittedly 5 pounds)?
When was the last time you held something referred to unequivocally as a "rod"? Was it under a few inches in length? I really doubt it. Common sense tells us an object worthy of the title of "rod" has some length to it. In fact, the definition of "rod" makes reference to a number of other objects, all lengthy and typically slender. Still, bigger than a belt pouch. Just some common sense, is all.

Besides, the stupid catch-all of "Spell Component Pouches have everything" is boring. One should have to work to get to an alternate reality dammit.

Basically, it's arguable as to the size of the Plane Shift foci. I personally err on the side of "go find one dammit", but that's just me.

[Claudius Maximus]

Rods can be of any size. I hear you even have some little ones in your eyes. From the spell I get the impression it's more like a small tuning fork, perhaps as if to tune into the proper plane.

In any case it doesn't bother me if you play it your way, and the idea of searching for particularly rare metals might be interesting. I'm just saying it's not RAW-guaranteed that they're too big for the pouch.

[arguskos]

In any case it doesn't bother me if you play it your way, and the idea of searching for particularly rare metals might be interesting. I'm just saying it's not RAW-guaranteed that they're too big for the pouch.
Oh, of course it's not RAW-guaranteed, but then, a surprisingly small amount of things are RAW-guaranteed. Silly RAW, being SO TERRIBLY written. I miss AD&D sometimes. :smallsigh:

[Tvtyrant]

Actually, I find that I really like the Plane Tickets idea. Essentially a magic item that combines Plane Shift with an exact location; it works twice, once there and once back. Sold to merchants and nobles so they can vacation/trade in other planes, it allows rich but low level people to go across the planes.

Plane Tickets are created primarily by Clerics for pilgrimage purposes, and Wizards to sell to the rich. While a Plane Ticket will not protect those who use them, they are extremely desirable as they last forever and are far cheaper then actually hiring a high level Cleric or Wizard. For practical reasons Sorcerers rarely make Plane Tickets, though they sometimes use their charisma to sell them (after buying them from that slug of a wizard on Batguano Way in Sigil, you know!) and make a nice 20% profit.

[stainboy]

If you want information on Sigil, I highly recommend you try to find the books from the Planescape box set. Uncaged: Faces of Sigil is good too if you can find it. Sigil was written in 2e as a campaign setting and has a lot of flavor that 3e can't get across in the space allotted.

If you want a planar super-city where the party can buy magic items but don't want it to become a major focus of the campaign, do not let them go to Sigil. Seriously, anywhere else.

[Amiel]

Between 20-30, IMO. Depends on how heavily the planes feature in your games, really.

I think such may be a tad too high, given the near ubiquity of Sigil and its multiversal encompassing and somewhat sordid reputation, it's rather more well known any of its contemporaries, the City of Brass, Dis, et al.
IMO, a DC 15 - 20 Knowledge planes check would be appropriate.


If your games heavily feature the Planes, you may even want to drop that DC down to 10.

[Coidzor]

Isn't there some planar city of undead where the living are welcome to visit but have to become Necropolitans in order to stay there permanently? I almost want to say Moil, but I believe that's connected to Vecna and Acererak. That seems like another potential planar market/place that would know how to get to Sigil.

And if you have anyone who wants to become a Necropolitan...


Hate to burst a bubble here, but, there is a snag with using Plane Shift to go to alternate Primes. See, Plane Shift has a specific focus component, one that almost no one actually remembers, and that actually gets around the spell component pouch issue (and Eschew Materials, which only obviates material components, not foci). Plane Shift requires that you have a small metal rod, made of an emblematic material to the place you're going to. Metal rods don't fit in pouches (meaning that, by the definition of spell component pouches given on the SRD, they aren't in said pouch of stupidity) and you need a specific one for a Prime Material you've never been to.

...Wait, can you return home without one or do you have to pack one to get yourself home with as well, because, well, they don't have one if they don't fit into spell component pouches what with having been shipwrecked at level 5s... Could find one conveniently though, I'll admit.


Damn I love Grazz't, that magnificent bastard. :smallamused:

You read his book (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066206/quotes)? :smallamused:

[faceroll]

Isn't there some planar city of undead where the living are welcome to visit but have to become Necropolitans in order to stay there permanently? I almost want to say Moil, but I believe that's connected to Vecna and Acererak. That seems like another potential planar market/place that would know how to get to Sigil.

And if you have anyone who wants to become a Necropolitan...



...Wait, can you return home without one or do you have to pack one to get yourself home with as well, because, well, they don't have one if they don't fit into spell component pouches what with having been shipwrecked at level 5s... Could find one conveniently though, I'll admit.



You read his book (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066206/quotes)? :smallamused:

In 3.5, Moil was a city of necromancers that got pulled into the Negative Energy plane. Now it's a rotting city haunted with dead creatures and scavenged by the powerful for ancient necromantic lore.

[Amiel]

In 3.5, Moil was a city of necromancers that got pulled into the Negative Energy plane. Now it's a rotting city haunted with dead creatures and scavenged by the powerful for ancient necromantic lore.

Yes, it's a city associated with Orcus, or rather the petulance and jealously of Orcus. Moil was initially turned to the worship of the Goat, but its populace decided to venerate more benevolent gods. Orcus would have none of that, in his spite and rage, he cast that city into a shadowed demiplane, forever separated from the light of the sun and warmth. It was that day that Moil died.

[hangedman1984]

When was the last time you held something referred to unequivocally as a "rod"? Was it under a few inches in length? I really doubt it. Common sense tells us an object worthy of the title of "rod" has some length to it.

must..not..make..joke

[Eldan]

Why? Do you often see a rod shorter than a handful of inches? :smallamused:

[Urpriest]

Given how the Savage Tide turns out, Azzagrat would actually be a pretty decent city for the players to frequent, and the DM could come up with a secret reason why they're safer there than most planar travelers.

[hewhosaysfish]

This is assuming the standard 3.5 setting [Greyhawk]

Isn't Sigil from the Planescape setting, not Greyhawk?

[Urpriest]

Isn't Sigil from the Planescape setting, not Greyhawk?

In 3.5, Sigil is generic D&D. And Greyhawk exists in the Planescape setting anyway.

[Eldan]

Not only that, but back in AD&D 2E, it was canonically in every setting. It had, amongst other things, Shadow Elves, people from Dark Sun, the gods of Faerun, Duke Rowan Darkwood from Greyhawk, Vecna, of course... and many more. Including a lot of real world gods.

[panaikhan]

I loved Sigil in 2e. As a DM, I've used it as a couple of plot hooks - the party 'stumble' across a portal to the City of Doors without even realizing it, and have a wild adventure getting home.
I've never had a party actually want to get there, however. The whole idea of the place is down to DM fiat, so, as has already been said, it can be as easy or as hard as you like to get to - or get from :smallamused:

-edit- for 'across' above, read 'through'...