Gestalt Bard//ToB

[Kalaska'Agathas]

So, a friend of mine mentioned that he wants to try running a gestalt Pathfinder campaign, but he's limiting us to using only base classes. I was inspired by Cyrano de Bergerac and wanted to go for something simple, so I thought I'd roll a Bard//Crusader or Bard//Warblade combination, using Song of the White Raven to get some serious IC/DFI going. Apart from that, though, I'm not sure what to do with the build.

I'd like to focus on Melee in combat, and on spells and skills out of combat. I could go the lockdown/crackdown route, but I wanted to use Snowflake Wardance which basically limits me to non reach weapons. Also, I'd like to go the Weapon Finesse route, if possible, for flavor reasons. Since we're using the Pathfinder version of the Bard, I think I'd like to get the feat Versatile Performance (from Complete Adventurer) and Versatile Performer (the class ability) to free up a bunch of skill points. I want to focus my skills on the Acrobatics, Stealth, and Social sets, though it would be nice to have UMD and Knowledges in there too.

As far as house-rules go, we're using Bardic Music as it was in 3.5, that is, I get one use per Bard level per day, rather than one round of use per Bard level per day. Also, Power Attack and Deadly Aim let you choose to reduce your to-hit beyond one, instead of forcing you to.

All books are available, though if something has been officially updated for Pathfinder we're using the Pathfinder version.

Edit: Oh, and we're using a Pathfinder 25 point buy to generate stats.

[AslanCross]

Warblade would definitely work better than Crusader. Song of the White Raven isn't really necessary since its use is mostly for stacking Bard and Warblade levels, but you don't need to do so due to gestalt.

Focusing on Diamond Mind maneuvers for offense will allow you to multiply your damage from Inspire Courage.

Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting) gives your bard increased bonuses from Inspire Courage.

There's a problem with Snowflake Wardance, though: It only works with slashing weapons. It will not work with a rapier, so you might have to drop Dexterity and increase your Strength instead. However, that free feat slot for Weapon Finesse can instead go to Power Attack. While you will have to wield a longsword in one hand to make Snowflake Wardance work, you can still get a decent damage bonus by burning your attack bonus increases for Power Attack. If you hit with Ruby Nightmare Blade, you can get some serious damage.

[gorfnab]

Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8 // Crusader 20 - 9th level spells, full BAB, full maneuvers. Also here is the Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0).

[dgnslyr]

There's a problem with Snowflake Wardance, though: It only works with slashing weapons. It will not work with a rapier, so you might have to drop Dexterity and increase your Strength instead. However, that free feat slot for Weapon Finesse can instead go to Power Attack.

Or, you know, just use a light martial slashing weapon. A shortsword is the first weapon to spring to mind, or a kukri, if it tickles your fancy.

Warblades are very fun characters, there's not a whole lot you can do wrong with them.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Warblade would definitely work better than Crusader. Song of the White Raven isn't really necessary since its use is mostly for stacking Bard and Warblade levels, but you don't need to do so due to gestalt.

Focusing on Diamond Mind maneuvers for offense will allow you to multiply your damage from Inspire Courage.

Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting) gives your bard increased bonuses from Inspire Courage.

There's a problem with Snowflake Wardance, though: It only works with slashing weapons. It will not work with a rapier, so you might have to drop Dexterity and increase your Strength instead. However, that free feat slot for Weapon Finesse can instead go to Power Attack. While you will have to wield a longsword in one hand to make Snowflake Wardance work, you can still get a decent damage bonus by burning your attack bonus increases for Power Attack. If you hit with Ruby Nightmare Blade, you can get some serious damage.

I may not need SotWR, but getting IC as a 2 times my Bard level sounds nice, don'cha think? You're right about Weapon Finesse and Snowflake Wardance though. I'll need to see if my DM is willing to let the latter work on Rapiers - if not I'll definitely go with the Longsword + Power Attack route. I was thinking of going for Power Attack anyhow, as far as I can tell it works just as well with a Rapier as it does with a one handed Longsword.


Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 2/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8 // Crusader 20 - 9th level spells, full BAB, full maneuvers. Also here is the Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0).

That's what I would go with, if we were allowed PrCs.


Or, you know, just use a light martial slashing weapon. A shortsword is the first weapon to spring to mind, or a kukri, if it tickles your fancy.

Warblades are very fun characters, there's not a whole lot you can do wrong with them.

I'd like to be wielding a proper sword, is the issue (proper in this case meaning Rapier or Longsword - and if I could use them with Snowflake Wardance it'd be a Falchion or Greatsword).

What are the relative merits of Crusader v. Warblade? Either would get me all good saves, and Warblade gives better hit dice, but Crusader gives Steely Resolve. Is the decision between being a dedicated tank v. being a more damage focused build? If that's the case I'd rather go for damage over tanking, as I'll be wearing effectively light armor for my whole career, unless I shell out for Battle Caster. This is especially the case if I can get my DM to let Snowflake Wardance apply to Rapiers (as I'll be going for Weapon Finesse and a high dex).

[gorfnab]

What are the relative merits of Crusader v. Warblade?
If you're going with Bard on the other side of the gestalt going Crusader will keep your build SAD (primarily Cha focused). You said you're not able to use prestige classes but how about maybe going mostly Crusader and splashing in 2 or 3 levels of Warblade? This may give you some more versatility and depending on when you take these levels you could cherry pick the best Warblade maneuvers :cough: Iron Heart Surge :cough:

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Hmmm, I hadn't thought about dipping Warblade while sticking to mostly Crusader. I'll have to play around with that.

My main concern is that Crusader seems to be much more of a Tank class, and I'd rather be more of a damage dealer than a Tank.

Also, this is a relatively low-op game, so I don't need to be particularly powerful on my own to keep up. I figure optimizing IC is okay, since everyone benefits.

The rest of the party is as follows: Halfling Cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier)//Marshall, Elf Barbarian//Rogue, Half-Elf Fighter//Paladin, Dwarf Inquisitor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor)//Ranger. The Halfling is probably the most optimized out of all of us, as she's focusing on power attacking with a Lance (she's no ubercharger, but she's definitely a charger), the Barbarian wields a Greataxe (and that's about all I know of him), I don't know much about the Half-Elf, but I presume she's focusing on mounted combat, and the Dwarf is focusing on dealing damage to his favored enemies. I would like to focus on dealing damage, buffing the party, and skills (as previously mentioned).

[Draz74]

The Crusader's CHA-based features are actually really minimal. I vote for going straight Warblade.

[Mongoose87]

I'd go Warblade, with a few late-level dips in Crusader. Crusader has decent maneuvers known, so you could pick up some pretty good Devoted Spirit maneuvers, and they'd wouldn't interfere with your Warblade maneuvers readied.

EDIT: Unless you want to try Dual-Stance. That looks pretty sick.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Yeah, Stance Mastery seems pretty darn good. And I expect this campaign to go to level 20 and beyond, so I'd even be able to pick it up. I'm leaning towards Warblade, I think, unless someone can come up with a compelling reason to go Crusader.

[Mongoose87]

Well, the ability to stab one guy and get a Heal upon yourself is pretty groovy.

[AnswersQuestion]

For a bard gestalt, crusaders don't have much going to them. Warblades will make more of the non-maxed-but-good int score than the crusaders will for their cha abilities. So it boils down to maneuvers.

Warblades have less maneuvers and a worse recovery mechanic, but they have maneuvers that fit your concept better (namely, diamond mind as a whole). Also, go with scimitars and get Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) instead. They qualify for snowflake wardance, the pre-requisites overlap with Snowflake Wardance, and if you ever get something saying "use a piercing weapon", you qualify for it too. It also lets you drop str to a minimum.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

For a bard gestalt, crusaders don't have much going to them. Warblades will make more of the non-maxed-but-good int score than the crusaders will for their cha abilities. So it boils down to maneuvers.

Warblades have less maneuvers and a worse recovery mechanic, but they have maneuvers that fit your concept better (namely, diamond mind as a whole). Also, go with scimitars and get Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) instead. They qualify for snowflake wardance, the pre-requisites overlap with Snowflake Wardance, and if you ever get something saying "use a piercing weapon", you qualify for it too. It also lets you drop str to a minimum.

Hmmm, that looks really good, actually. How would it interact with Slippers of Battledancing, though? Ok, so far this is what I'm looking at:
Classes: Warblade 20//Bard 20
Feats:
1st level feat: Versatile Performer
Murky Eyed: Versatile Spellcaster
2nd Flaw (any recommendations?): Weapon Finesse
Human Bonus Feat: Dervish Dancer
3rd level feat: Song of the White Raven
5th level feat: Power Attack
5th level Warblade Bonus feat: ? (Maybe Improved Initiative)
7th level feat: Snowflake Wardance
9th level feat: Knowledge Devotion
9th level swap Inspire Greatness: Song of the Heart
9th level Warblade Bonus feat: ? (Maybe Combat Reflexes)
11th level feat: Words of Creation
13th level feat: ? (Maybe Deadly Aim)
13th level Warblade Bonus feat: Traded for the Mobile Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter#TOC-Mobile-Fighter) ACF's Rapid Attack
15th level feat: ? (Maybe Mounted Combat)
17th level feat: ? (Maybe Ride by Attack)
17th level Warblade Bonus feat: ?
19th level feat: ? (Maybe Spirited Charge)

Any changes you think I should make?

[Mikka]

You can make an incredibly mean character by going:

Bard(1 3 for song of the heart])/Hexblade(4)/Paladin of Tyranny(2-3)/Binder(5+)

With improved binding, doomspeak, alternative class feature from hexblade , binding the right two vestiges and having tyranny aura you give your opponents -10 to all saves and various other things. at the same time with doomspeak you can make that penalty another -10 to -20!!! With a caster helping you you can seriously throw down some hurt.

This leaves the other side: Crusader, now getting alot out of Cha (Paladin, Hexblade, Binder) crusader is the better choice, you stack these levels with bard so you inspire courage like a level 20 char eventually which is a quite handy improvement.

OR! you could go all sorcerer (or wizard) and your opponents will be nearly helpless to resist your save or suck / die / explode / incinerate / turn to dust etc.

Most abilities on the first side of the gestalt are super supportive/enhancing of your capabilities or ruining to the opponents or just passive bonuses (vestiges bonus abilities, passive +cha to saves, - to enemy saves etc, and with LOTS of swift abilities you can fire away without wasting too many actions)

[Kalaska'Agathas]

You can make an incredibly mean character by going:

Bard(1 3 for song of the heart])/Hexblade(4)/Paladin of Tyranny(2-3)/Binder(5+)

With improved binding, doomspeak, alternative class feature from hexblade , binding the right two vestiges and having tyranny aura you give your opponents -10 to all saves and various other things. at the same time with doomspeak you can make that penalty another -10 to -20!!! With a caster helping you you can seriously throw down some hurt.

This leaves the other side: Crusader, now getting alot out of Cha (Paladin, Hexblade, Binder) crusader is the better choice, you stack these levels with bard so you inspire courage like a level 20 char eventually which is a quite handy improvement.

OR! you could go all sorcerer (or wizard) and your opponents will be nearly helpless to resist your save or suck / die / explode / incinerate / turn to dust etc.

Most abilities on the first side of the gestalt are super supportive/enhancing of your capabilities or ruining to the opponents or just passive bonuses (vestiges bonus abilities, passive +cha to saves, - to enemy saves etc, and with LOTS of swift abilities you can fire away without wasting too many actions)

That would be a mean character build, however, I'm trying to build something more along the lines of the eponymous hero from Cyrano de Bergerac, so I think Bard 20//Warblade or Crusader 20 is more like what I'm looking for. The other thing is, our DM would like us to dip as little as possible, if at all. Finally, I'm looking for a distinctly good-guy type build, so Paladin of Tyranny is right out.

I figure Bard makes for a good 'semi-passive' side, as it gives good skills, spells, and IC takes only a free action to maintain. I plan to focus on IC and maneuvers in combat, so I should be fine as far as action economy goes.

One thing I've noted is that I will be relying, for the most part, on single strikes for damage. I know it doesn't work by RAW, but would Spring Attack be a good investment, if my DM were to allow it to work with Standard Action Strikes? The only problem I see with it is it would either be very late blooming or it would push my feats back by three. Also, I'm not so sure about Dervish Dance - I was planning on using a Buckler to up my AC, and I wouldn't be able to with the feat as written. Also, my DM is willing to let Snowflake Wardance work with Rapiers, so I may not need Dervish Dance anyhow.

[Keld Denar]

One nice thing about going Crusader is Aura of Chaos. Every time you roll max damage on a die, reroll it. With Dragonfire Inspiration, you'll be rolling a lot of d6s. Thats a ~16% increase in DFI damage, not to mention other dice.

Unfortunately, Crusader attacks are nearly exclusively strikes. If you want to take the biggest advantage of DFI, you want more than one attack per round.

Of course, Warblade gets you more attacks. Dancing/Raging Mongoose give you 2-4 more attacks per round while TWFing, and Time Stands Still is pretty badass.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Ok, so I think I'm gonna go with Warblade. Also, my DM is allowing Rapiers to work with Snowflake Wardance, so instead of using a scimitar and Dervish Dance I'll be using a Rapier. What maneuvers and stances should I focus on? I don't really have the feats to do TWFing effectively (do I?) and I don't know that I have the stats for it with a 25 point buy (and everything else I want to do).