charisma and melee?

[Origomar]

is there any class that is built around having fairly high charisma(can also be using like a bow just not magic) or are there any feats or anything that make charisma help in combat situations?

[HunterOfJello]

First of all you want to check out the X Stat to Y Bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) thread.


On there you'll likely find a very good Bard feat called Snowflake Wardance from the book, Frostburn. It allows bard to turn into melee monsters and add their Charisma bonus to attack while wielding a one-handed slashing weapon.

If you prefer ranged weapons then Charming the Arrow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a) can be a useful feat to add your Charisma bonus to ranged attack with bows. The prerequisite is that you have to be Fey, which isn't too bad if you have access to the Unseelie Fey template from the Dragon Compendium.

~

Also, Crusaders use charisma for a few things and Paladins are famous for their ability to add their charisma bonus to all of their saves.

[AslanCross]

The core paladin? Granted it's not so good at it, but Charisma is its primary stat.
The feat Divine Might eats up a Turn Undead use to allow you to add Charisma to melee damage for one turn.

[Flickerdart]

If you look at the X stat to Y bonus thread, you'll see that Charisma is the easiest stat to stack on everything. With some judicious dipping you can get CHA to AC a few times (Battledancer, Mystic Wanderer, Paladin variant to name a few), at to attack and damage at least once (Slippers of Battlendancing and Gauntlet of heartfelt Blows). A Bardadin (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=187753) (though this particular build uses no Bard levels at all) gets you both the Paladin and Bard bases for most of those.

[Townopolis]

Knights, Marshals, Paladins, Crusaders, and Bards can all make for decent melee that makes use of charisma.

Using the core paladin is usually considered a trap, but there are lots of variants that don't suck as much. There is also a sublime marshal floating around the interwebs that combines the marshal class with some Tome of Battle maneuver use to create a good melee class. The knight is often considered in need of a variant or some improvement, but I don't know of any variants right now. The core bard becomes decent with the addition of a few splatbooks (snowflake wardance is in Frostburn. Dragon Magic is another good one for melee bards), while crusader is fine out of the box (it's in the Tome of Battle).

[Flickerdart]

The Knight is a fine class for the first few levels, and its 3rd level ability is great for any battlefield control meleeist. It just doesn't do much besides draw aggro.

[Eldariel]

The core paladin? Granted it's not so good at it, but Charisma is its primary stat.
The feat Divine Might eats up a Turn Undead use to allow you to add Charisma to melee damage for one turn.

Actually, it's Cha to Damage. One of my personal favorites on arcane archer types with Sacred Exorcist.

[Otherworld Odd]

Well, aside from everything that's already been said (and they would be your better options), feinting-based rogue?

You may like it, but I hated it. I hated it both times my dm made me play one and he let me feint as a free action.

[Frenchy147]

I'm not sure because I don't have it in front of me right now but I think there's a couple of cha based feats in PH2.

I think the feinting ones are in there too, but maybe I'm mistaken.

[Origomar]

Well, aside from everything that's already been said (and they would be your better options), feinting-based rogue?

You may like it, but I hated it. I hated it both times my dm made me play one and he let me feint as a free action.

i tried that, my guy was not very good either but i really did not optimize at all

[Adamantrue]

Getting beyond the Class (as that has been pretty well covered by now), and into the Feats some more. I also may be in error with the RAW (some confirmation would be nice), but this has all held true in my groups.

There are lots of Fear-based Feats that can work well on the battlefield. Kiai Shout & Greater Kiai Shout are on the weaker end, but under-rated in my opinion, as they can clear out a goblin horde swarming the party. Daunting Presence & Frightful Presence are a step upwards, but have their own limitations. I'd say the best one (for non-Barbarians) is Intimidating Strike. Combined with Imperious Command & Never Outnumbered (skill trick), it should prove pretty slick. If you are involving a Barbarian, check out Intimidating Rage, Imperious Command, and Never Outnumbered.

Goad is pretty good for group-based tactics, provided you have the defenses and hit points to take a beating. It does allow for a single attack, so you aren't paralyzed while doing it.

[FMArthur]

The Iaijutsu Focus skill provides decent Charisma-to-damage returns and the Iaijutsu Master PrC doubles up on that like crazy (also giving Charisma to Initiative). Generally I prefer the Skill Knowledge feat to make it possible, but a dip in any class that has it in-class at least lets you achieve max ranks in it (and the Able Learner feat can let you take ranks at in-class cost, but Iaijutsu Focus just isn't worth forcing a race, feat and class on the character).

If you have at least 18 Charisma, a Marshal can be good. Its main reason for existing is providing its Charisma as a variable bonus to everyone within 60ft (including self) and that's really all it does, so I generally avoid it unless I'm going all-out in charisma (+4 racial). It can give it to any one type of ability check and that ability's skills, so for example you can get it to Dex to boost the party's Initiative check and then switch to Charisma to double your charisma bonus to Intimidate and Iaijutsu Focus in battle. It can also add the bonus to one type of save or to damage on charges or to damage on flanking attacks. It is garbage if your Charisma isn't phenominal, though. But Succubus Marshals? They can really change the battle. :smallamused:

The Hellreaver prestige class in FCII can get bonuses to attack, damage, and defenses in similar fashion to Factotums, but over about 10 levels instead of the first 2, and instead of spending points from a fixed pool to get Charisma to these things, they spend points from a Charisma-sized pool to get fixed bonuses to them, which isn't even as good.

[Greenish]

Kiai Shout & Greater Kiai Shout are on the weaker end, but under-rated in my opinion, as they can clear out a goblin horde swarming the party.Plus the former is requirement for Singh Rager, and the latter comes as a bonus feat for it. It's a pretty decent melee PrC, IMO.

[FMArthur]

I caution you not to overlook taking 10 levels of Samurai as an intimidator because 30ft radius demoralization seriously rocks. You actually have to be in melee range to intimidate normally and Never Outnumbered or Instantaneous Rage do a poor job of AOE or ranged demoralization by comparison. With a Samurai, using the right feats and build you can bring everyone in 30ft of you to Panicked and Cowering with two move actions. By level 12 if you just use Avenging Executioner to do it as a move action instead of going to Samurai 15.

Something like Samurai 10/Avenging Executioner 2 with Dreadful Wrath and Imperious Command is enough to abuse fear to its fullest on a melee chassis, really. If you wanna do Rage stuff, take a level of Ronin to keep Samurai abilities while you take Barbarian.

[Zaq]

I've played a "CHA TO EVERYTHING" bard before, and it was a blast. Go Killoren, from Races of the Wild. They have a smite attack (among other things, that's +CHA to your to-hit, CHA times per day, no more than 1/hour), and they're Fey, so they qualify for Charming the Arrow (which was linked to earlier). Add on Snowflake Wardance and you're already using CHA for melee rolls (you may want Extra Music at low levels) and ranged rolls. There's also plenty of bard spells that let you use your charisma for various things (like Whirling Blade or Ruin Delver's Fortune). Then you can use whatever standard melee bard tricks you prefer (IC optimization, Dragonfire Inspiration, Slippers of Battledancing once you can afford 'em, Songblade, Song of the White Raven, whatever).

You can also use the Lord of the Dance trick (for which I claim no credit)—there's a very interesting spell in the Spell Compendium called Undersong. It's a level 1 bard spell that lasts for 10 minutes per level. Through whatever means you deem appropriate, get this spell on you as close to constantly as you can. (Custom items, persisting shenanigans, just dedicating a lot of slots to it, or whatever). It allows you to make a Perform check in place of a Concentration check. This is hilarious when you get Diamond Mind maneuvers involved, since a lot of them are based on your Concentration checks. Since Perform is CHA-based, you are indeed using your charisma for these things (such as replacing saving throws with a Concentration Perform check, replacing your damage roll with a Concentration Perform check, making a Concentration Perform check to do double damage with your attacks, and so on). There are two main ways to do this. The first, which is probably more optimal, is to take a few levels in Warblade, which qualifies you for the very useful Song of the White Raven feat. The other way is to take a few levels in [preferably Unarmed to save on IUS] Swordsage, which, while you won't get SotWR, allows you to take the Ascetic Mage feat from Complete Adventurer, which allows you to add your CHA bonus to your AC. Fun times.

[Dimers]

Less-than-serious suggestion (highly unoptimized and depends on your definition of "no magic"):

A melee character, no magic, bonuses from Cha? If you start at level 6 or higher, take the Battle Sorcerer class and spend your spells on Arcane Strike, a CW feat. +(spell level) to hit and +(spell level)d4 damage on all melee strikes with one weapon for a round. Hexblade and bard also get bonus spells based on Cha, so they qualify -- but you have to wait until a higher level to get the feat.

:smallwink:

Only slightly more serious suggestion: Tattooed Monk with a bellflower tattoo. Add your Cha mod to any of your stats, once per day per two PrC levels. It's flexible and occasionally impressive, and it'd work okay (excepting the feat requirements for PrC entry) for someone who has really high Cha anyway.

[fireinakasha]

If your DM is willing to consider homebrews, you could check out this Swashbuckler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155012) remix.

[Optimator]

Combat Panache from the PHB II would fit well in a cha-based melee build.

[Blackfang108]

In 4e, There's the Inspiring Warlord, Thaneborn Barbarian, Artful Dodger Rogue, The Cha-Paladin Builds, and the Dex-Cha Assassin.

Except the Cha paladin is pretty much exactly what you ask for: Cha for attacks, Melee Weapon usage.

All of the other builds mentioned have CHA as a secondary stat.

[Psyren]

The core paladin? Granted it's not so good at it, but Charisma is its primary stat.
The feat Divine Might eats up a Turn Undead use to allow you to add Charisma to melee damage for one turn.

Pathfinder Paladin is even better, eschewing wisdom entirely.

[JaronK]

If you want overkill, Iajuitsu Master wins at this. Up to 9*cha to damage when using Iajuitsu Focus. A build like Unseelie Fey Human Hexblade 4 (Dark Companion variant)/Paladin of Tyranny 3/OA Samurai 1/Iajuitsu Master 10/X2 lets you do incredible charisma based damage while also dramatically lowering the saves of any enemy near you and simultaneously boosting your own saves into the stratosphere, to the point where it becomes a good idea for party members to drop nukes directly on top of you while enemies surround you.

JaronK

[Thurbane]

Stunning Surge (MIC) and Sudden Stunning (DMG2) are good weapon enhancements for a CHA based melee type. This comes with my usual disclaimer that I consider Sudden Stunning broken good, and that (with no RAW to back me up) I consider Stunning Surge to be the fixed/nerfed version of Sudden Stunning.

[Stallion]

If you want overkill, Iajuitsu Master wins at this. Up to 9*cha to damage when using Iajuitsu Focus. A build like Unseelie Fey Human Hexblade 4 (Dark Companion variant)/Paladin of Tyranny 3/OA Samurai 1/Iajuitsu Master 10/X2 lets you do incredible charisma based damage while also dramatically lowering the saves of any enemy near you and simultaneously boosting your own saves into the stratosphere, to the point where it becomes a good idea for party members to drop nukes directly on top of you while enemies surround you.

JaronK

Two monk. Because having Mettle and Evasion just puts the cherry on the cake.

[FMArthur]

I'd pay 25000gp to avoid taking Monk levels, personally. You don't want to delay Iaijutsu Master and while you actually have 7 levels left because IM, practically speaking, ends at 5, you might want to get some way to make sure you can use IF reliably.

[Volthawk]

If you want overkill, Iajuitsu Master wins at this. Up to 9*cha to damage when using Iajuitsu Focus. A build like Unseelie Fey Human Hexblade 4 (Dark Companion variant)/Paladin of Tyranny 3/OA Samurai 1/Iajuitsu Master 10/X2 lets you do incredible charisma based damage while also dramatically lowering the saves of any enemy near you and simultaneously boosting your own saves into the stratosphere, to the point where it becomes a good idea for party members to drop nukes directly on top of you while enemies surround you.

JaronK

Hmm, maybe Blackguard 2 at the end for Cha to saves again? It's called Dark Blessing, not Divine Grace, and both are untyped, so it should work.

[true_shinken]

Plus the former is requirement for Singh Rager, and the latter comes as a bonus feat for it. It's a pretty decent melee PrC, IMO.
Singh Rager is solid indeed. Oh, the times when pouce was somewhat hard to get. Then came Complete Champion and ruined everything.



In 4e, There's the Inspiring Warlord, Thaneborn Barbarian, Artful Dodger Rogue, The Cha-Paladin Builds, and the Dex-Cha Assassin.

Except the Cha paladin is pretty much exactly what you ask for: Cha for attacks, Melee Weapon usage.

All of the other builds mentioned have CHA as a secondary stat.
Yeah, that's very relevant for 3.5 :smallsigh:

Arcane Duelist is a good way to get Charisma to AC.
Really, just check the X stat to Y bonus thread and cherry pick what you want.