Why do so many people assume Tarquin is so weak/Tarquin is a fighter-type? [Archive]

Drolyt

2010-12-11, 01:00 AM

These are two related questions about presumptions I honestly don't get. Reading a variety of threads leads me to conclude that most people think Tarquin is a non-epic fighter-type. Firstly I think he is probably epic. I mean, the guy conquered 11 nations in 8 months and it took 26 to take him out. And he survived to become the leader of an adventuring party. All that was several years ago, before Elan and Nale were born (he has baby Nale with him when he explains his new plan to his party). He now rules one-third of the continent, and even if most of that is cunning there has to be a lot of fighting, especially since he acts in the capacity of general. He managed to disarm Elan without breaking a sweat or getting a scratch and thought it was all good fun. His stated knowledge of "many obscure fighting techniques", more or less proven by his knowledge of pun-dueling. He also seems to know Girard, and I doubt a former member of the Scribble would stand for what Tarquin was doing if he knew, so Tarquin can obviously defend himself. Finally, there is the matter of the roaches in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) strip. I imagine Tarquin's party/empire is one of the factions. If so, it would be anti-climactic if he wasn't able to hold his own.

As for his class, both Elan and Nale are Gish types (albeit poorly optimized ones). I would think Tarquin had a Eldritch Knight style PRC. One that allows him to wear armor. Indeed, seemingly the only reason most people suppose Tarquin is a fighter is that he wears armor, but he could easily have some feat or PRC for that. Also, in the strip where his party is introduced there seems to already be a sword and board fighter.

blazingshadow

2010-12-11, 01:46 AM

his proficiency in fighting leads ppl to believe he is a single classed melee type though he might have prestiged once or twice. defeating elan isn't that much of an acomplishment as he is an unoptimized multiclass character that can barely do semicompetent fighting. he doesn't have to be epic to conquer nations if you have a high charisma and some bluff and are over level 12 so that you are stronger than most everybody else in the world

Zevox

2010-12-11, 02:20 AM

Absolutely nothing Tarquin has done indicates him to be even very high level, much less epic. He has shown exceptional leadership and planning skills, not personal combat skills. All we've seen of those is that he defeated Elan, by defending himself and then disarming him - not a difficult feat, especially given his apparent knowledge of how to negate the one ability Elan has that makes him halfway competent in a fight. Given how incredibly rare epic level characters are, it's a huge, illogical leap to assume he is epic.

He also seems to know Girard, and I doubt a former member of the Scribble would stand for what Tarquin was doing if he knew, so Tarquin can obviously defend himself.
This is making huge assumptions that we have no evidence for. All we know about Tarquin's knowledge of Girard is that he knows what he looked like when he was younger. That's it. We have no idea how he knows that, whether they ever met, etc. To assume they actually clashed and claim this as evidence of Tarquin's personal combat prowess is totally illogical.

Finally, there is the matter of the roaches in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) strip. I imagine Tarquin's party/empire is one of the factions. If so, it would be anti-climactic if he wasn't able to hold his own.
And again, assumptions. Tarquin and friends may be one of the sides, or they may not (depends on if they get involved in the struggle over the Gates I'd say). Even if they are, Tarquin does not need to be a huge personal threat to be a player. His cunning and leadership abilities would allow that, plus he has five other adventurer allies. Heck, Nale is no huge threat personally, and has less resources and allies than his father by far, yet he is definitely one of the sides.

As for Tarquin's class, again, you're making huge illogical leaps. Nale and Elan's classes have no bearing on Tarquin's. The best current guess is that he is a Fighter because of what we have seen of him - he wears heavy (or at least medium, not really easy to tell the difference given the art style) armor and has only shown himself to fight using weapons. We've seen him use a dagger against Elan and fight sword-and-board against Nale in a flashback. We haven't seen him do anything with magic, either arcane or divine, nor use any special abilities of any class.

Could he be epic or something like an Eldritch Knight? Yes. But we have absolutely no reason to believe he is either of those at this time. The best we can say is he is likely at least middling in levels (to be able to disarm Elan) and the class that best fits what we've seen him do so far is Fighter.

Zevox

Drolyt

2010-12-11, 03:03 AM

First I must apologize, I am aware that even given all the circumstantial evidence I gave we don't have solid reason to believe Tarquin is epic level or that he is something other than a single class melee fighter. My point is that we don't have any evidence to believe otherwise either, so I don't get why people make assumptions.

his proficiency in fighting leads ppl to believe he is a single classed melee type though he might have prestiged once or twice. defeating elan isn't that much of an acomplishment as he is an unoptimized multiclass character that can barely do semicompetent fighting. he doesn't have to be epic to conquer nations if you have a high charisma and some bluff and are over level 12 so that you are stronger than most everybody else in the world
Only part I really disagree with is Elan. Elan has absurd Charisma. He is a Bard, which while not super strong gives him a variety of very good abilities, and a Dashing Swordsman, which from what we've seen pumps his melee abilities near to that of a single class fighter. Moreover, we have evidence that the Order of the Stick is at least 13th level (see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html)) and probably higher by now. Even if Elan isn't as strong as a straight Fighter and Tarquin is I can't see him winding that handily without at least 2-3 levels on Elan, so while Epic is not necessary here 12 is really stretching it, Elan would have won easily against a level 12 straight fighter, and if Tarquin is in fact a gish of some sort he would have to be even stronger to defeat Elan without even resorting to magic.

Absolutely nothing Tarquin has done indicates him to be even very high level, much less epic. He has shown exceptional leadership and planning skills, not personal combat skills. All we've seen of those is that he defeated Elan, by defending himself and then disarming him - not a difficult feat, especially given his apparent knowledge of how to negate the one ability Elan has that makes him halfway competent in a fight. Given how incredibly rare epic level characters are, it's a huge, illogical leap to assume he is epic.
While it is true he negated Elan's abilities somewhat, Elan is at least 13th level pc, and even a straight warrior (not fighter) should deal some damage to a character of equal level, while Tarquin was unscratched. While it may be a leap to assume Tarquin is epic, I am simply arguing it is a leap to assume he is not. My gut tells me he is, and I don't think that is illogical to assume that, nor do I see how it is a leap.

This is making huge assumptions that we have no evidence for. All we know about Tarquin's knowledge of Girard is that he knows what he looked like when he was younger. That's it. We have no idea how he knows that, whether they ever met, etc. To assume they actually clashed and claim this as evidence of Tarquin's personal combat prowess is totally illogical.

How is it illogical to conclude that a character who knows the whereabouts of a very powerful epic illusionist whom neither the Sapphire Guard nor the Order of the Stick could locate must be reasonably powerful?

And again, assumptions. Tarquin and friends may be one of the sides, or they may not (depends on if they get involved in the struggle over the Gates I'd say). Even if they are, Tarquin does not need to be a huge personal threat to be a player. His cunning and leadership abilities would allow that, plus he has five other adventurer allies. Heck, Nale is no huge threat personally, and has less resources and allies than his father by far, yet he is definitely one of the sides.
I know I'm making assumptions; so is anyone who claims he is not epic level. However, I don't think I am making assumptions when I say he is one of the sides. It is very heavily implied at this point.

As for Tarquin's class, again, you're making huge illogical leaps. Nale and Elan's classes have no bearing on Tarquin's. The best current guess is that he is a Fighter because of what we have seen of him - he wears heavy (or at least medium, not really easy to tell the difference given the art style) armor and has only shown himself to fight using weapons. We've seen him use a dagger against Elan and fight sword-and-board against Nale in a flashback. We haven't seen him do anything with magic, either arcane or divine, nor use any special abilities of any class.
How is that an illogical leap? There is obviously something thematic going on there, and I simply think it likely that he has some arcane skills. I'm not saying I know that for sure.

Could he be epic or something like an Eldritch Knight? Yes. But we have absolutely no reason to believe he is either of those at this time. The best we can say is he is likely at least middling in levels (to be able to disarm Elan) and the class that best fits what we've seen him do so far is Fighter.
Zevox
We do have some reason, and I have presented those arguments. My point was that in other discussions people have explicitly or implicitly assumed that he was not, when we have no evidence whatsoever about his capabilities at this point. I have absolutely no idea why you feel the need to repeatedly call my arguments illogical instead of actually pointing out flaws in them, nor can I agree that they are in fact illogical, though you may disagree with them. I don't take kindly to attempts to use phrases like "totally illogical" to sound more intelligent and impressive or to discredit someone's argument and I am not certain why you seem so emotional about the topic; perhaps I am misreading your post or you did not intend it that way, but it comes off as very harsh and confrontational.

Gnome Alone

2010-12-11, 03:15 AM

I figure Tarquin has at least a little magic, since he "liquefied" every man in his first wife's tavern. I take that to mean he either melted them with some kind of spell, or had some kind of macabre pseudo-medieval hand-operated blender and way too much time on his hands.

Edit: Hmm, on the other hand, wands.

Gettles

2010-12-11, 03:20 AM

I figure Tarquin has at least a little magic, since he "liquified" every man in his first wife's tavern. I take that to mean he either melted them with some kind of spell, or had some kind of macabre pseudo-medieval hand-operated blender and way too much time on his hands.

Edit: Hmm, on the other hand, wands.

I think in this case it meant that he had them liquidated which is to say killed.

(Reread the comic in question and realized that he did in fact say "liquefy".

littlekKID

2010-12-11, 03:33 AM

Absolutely nothing Tarquin has done indicates him to be even very high level, much less epic. He has shown exceptional leadership and planning skills, not personal combat skills. All we've seen of those is that he defeated Elan, by defending himself and then disarming him - not a difficult feat, especially given his apparent knowledge of how to negate the one ability Elan has that makes him halfway competent in a fight. Given how incredibly rare epic level characters are, it's a huge, illogical leap to assume he is epic.

This is making huge assumptions that we have no evidence for. All we know about Tarquin's knowledge of Girard is that he knows what he looked like when he was younger. That's it. We have no idea how he knows that, whether they ever met, etc. To assume they actually clashed and claim this as evidence of Tarquin's personal combat prowess is totally illogical.

And again, assumptions. Tarquin and friends may be one of the sides, or they may not (depends on if they get involved in the struggle over the Gates I'd say). Even if they are, Tarquin does not need to be a huge personal threat to be a player. His cunning and leadership abilities would allow that, plus he has five other adventurer allies. Heck, Nale is no huge threat personally, and has less resources and allies than his father by far, yet he is definitely one of the sides.

As for Tarquin's class, again, you're making huge illogical leaps. Nale and Elan's classes have no bearing on Tarquin's. The best current guess is that he is a Fighter because of what we have seen of him - he wears heavy (or at least medium, not really easy to tell the difference given the art style) armor and has only shown himself to fight using weapons. We've seen him use a dagger against Elan and fight sword-and-board against Nale in a flashback. We haven't seen him do anything with magic, either arcane or divine, nor use any special abilities of any class.

Could he be epic or something like an Eldritch Knight? Yes. But we have absolutely no reason to believe he is either of those at this time. The best we can say is he is likely at least middling in levels (to be able to disarm Elan) and the class that best fits what we've seen him do so far is Fighter.

Zevox

Dammit, Zevox, how comes you always say what I wanna say, only better wirrten and longer than I have the patience to wirte (and with less smiles :smalltongue:)

Ranzear

2010-12-11, 03:37 AM

Edit: Hmm, on the other hand, wands.

He does mention having a handy stock of magical items, and even the Oracle has been shown savvy to keep a few around for sake of not being a caster.

Zevox

2010-12-11, 03:55 AM

While it is true he negated Elan's abilities somewhat, Elan is at least 13th level pc, and even a straight warrior (not fighter) should deal some damage to a character of equal level, while Tarquin was unscratched.
Which tells us only that he has a pretty good AC... for someone fighting a Bard who likely doesn't have much of a strength score. Elan's BAB is likely only +10 right now (+9 for being definitely a 13th level Bard, one more assuming Dashing Swordsman is full BAB), and his Rapier's enhancement is only another +3. Not all that impressive outside of the lower levels.

Tarquin, meanwhile, likely has some nice magic items and armor for his AC (he was going to give away a Ring of Regeneration - plainly expensive magic items are not something he lacks for), and was probably using total defense for another +4 (or 6 on the off chance he has 5 ranks in tumble) given he doesn't seem to strike back. So him having good AC is completely unsurprising and tells us nothing about his level.

While it may be a leap to assume Tarquin is epic, I am simply arguing it is a leap to assume he is not.
And I would argue that assertion is dead wrong. Epic levels are not something commonly reached - it is never a leap to assume someone is not epic unless there is good evidence that they are. There is not here.

My gut tells me he is, and I don't think that is illogical to assume that, nor do I see how it is a leap.
It is illogical, as we have no actual evidence pointing to him being epic, and your "gut" telling you otherwise doesn't change that one bit. By definition, "gut" impressions are not based on logic, they're just reflexive reactions.

How is it illogical to conclude that a character who knows the whereabouts of a very powerful epic illusionist whom neither the Sapphire Guard nor the Order of the Stick could locate must be reasonably powerful?
First, we do not know that he knows Girard's whereabouts - again, we know only that he can give an accurate description of what Girard looked like when he was younger. Second, because there is no correlation between personal combat prowess and how much you know about any given person.

However, I don't think I am making assumptions when I say he is one of the sides. It is very heavily implied at this point.
I'd disagree. While it's possible, we simply don't know if he will get involved in the conflict over the Gates or not.

How is that an illogical leap?
Because the classes of people related to you have nothing to do with what class you are. Hence why Roy is not a Wizard even though his father is, or why V is not a Ranger even though her parents were.

My point was that in other discussions people have explicitly or implicitly assumed that he was not, when we have no evidence whatsoever about his capabilities at this point.
It is true that we have scant evidence of his capabilities at this point, but assuming that they are closer to the minimum possible than to the maximum is not a bad assumption to make. Quite the contrary, it is the safer, more reasonable assumption to make.

I have absolutely no idea why you feel the need to repeatedly call my arguments illogical instead of actually pointing out flaws in them
The fact that they are illogical is a flaw in them. The fact that there is no correlation whatsoever between several things you attempt to put forth as evidence and what you claim they are evidence of is what makes them illogical, and I have pointed out where that is the case - e.g. Nale and Elan's class being presented as evidence of Tarquin's, or assuming that Tarquin knowing what Girard looks like means the two have fought and Tarquin was able to hold his own and that he is thus high or epic level. Because of this, your arguments by and large simply make no sense, which is a pretty bad flaw.

I don't take kindly to attempts to use phrases like "totally illogical" to sound more intelligent and impressive or to discredit someone's argument and I am not certain why you seem so emotional about the topic; perhaps I am misreading your post or you did not intend it that way, but it comes off as very harsh and confrontational.
You are misreading my statements then, as I am not attempting to come off as emotional, harsh, or confrontational, but am simply pointing out the rather significant problems I see with your arguments.

Zevox

Kish

2010-12-11, 07:44 AM

electricbee

2010-12-11, 08:06 AM

Shale

2010-12-11, 08:58 AM

Not necessarily higher level, just tougher in a fight. Elan, in a one-on-one duel with somebody who can neutralize his Dashing Swordsman bonus to damage, is about as threatening as a dire marmoset.

Bulzeeb

2010-12-11, 10:38 AM

While it is true he negated Elan's abilities somewhat, Elan is at least 13th level pc, and even a straight warrior (not fighter) should deal some damage to a character of equal level, while Tarquin was unscratched. While it may be a leap to assume Tarquin is epic, I am simply arguing it is a leap to assume he is not. My gut tells me he is, and I don't think that is illogical to assume that, nor do I see how it is a leap.

It's implied that the full damage bonuses from Elan's puns were blocked by Tarquin's counter-puns, leaving Elan just a weak bard. In addition, the argument could be made that even if Elan could have landed a few hits on Tarquin in terms of game mechanisms, for the sake of plot he did not in order to demonstrate the futility of such attempts.

Anyway, it seems to me that your thought processes have two main flaws. The first is that you seem to equate power and intelligence, when the two are not necessarily related. Remember Shojo, brilliant manipulator who also knew significant details about the other gates and their leaders, yet died in a single slash? Tarquin could have easily done all he needed without also being strong, much as his namesake, Grand Moff Tarkin, had a higher position than Darth Vader despite being much weaker than him. Tarquin conquered with his armies, not with his weapons.

The second flaw is that you are accusing others of making the mistake of "assuming", so it's okay for you to assume differently. But you're forgetting that while yes, it is a bit of an assumption to assume that Tarquin is a non-epic fighter, based on the evidence provided so far, it is the likeliest answer. Is it possible that further evidence will reveal that that assumption is false? Sure, but it's illogical to hold as true some other assumption which is not as likely.

Swordpriest

2010-12-11, 10:51 AM

As for the "liquefy" comment, that's easily done without magic, too.

1. Obtain barrel.
2. Place mixture of water and quicklime therein.
3. Stuff in body, place lid on top.
4. Wait.
5. Pour out liquified corpse into garden soil.

Gross, but effective, and something that a Level 1 commoner could do without magic. :smallbiggrin:

jidasfire

2010-12-11, 11:35 AM

Well, here's my 2 cents (adjusted for inflation):

While I can understand everyone's desire to be cautious in guessing here, since the comic has a mighty tendency to zig when the readers expect a zag, I think it's at least safe to assume that Tarquin is not epic, as that would throw off the balance of the world, where the Epic types are the Order of the Scribble and Xykon, but at least somewhat high level, probably in the 15-18 range. Why, you ask? For one thing, while a general could just sit on the sidelines and let his soldiers do all the work, Tarquin also spent a long time as an adventurer, which, as the comic states, tends to bump one's levels up rather quickly. His leveling has probably slowed down a lot since founding his nations, but that doesn't mean he lacks it from before. Also, you'll notice that even though his first empire got taken down, he survived, which is more than can be said of most Western dictators. Chances are, if he was personally weak, he'd have been assassinated before his empire was toppled. Second major reason is, even if Tarquin isn't one of the "sides," and my guess is he probably isn't, he's still the current major villain of this arc of the story, and sure he's Elan's foe, but if he could simply be bounced by Roy right out of the gate, that wouldn't present much of an interesting challenge. Sure, he also has his party, but I'd be extremely surprised if Tarquin himself wasn't some sort of credible threat. The Order needs levels if they're ever gonna beat their real enemies, and my vague understanding of 3.5 rules leads me to believe you don't really get much XP from weaker foes.

Of course, this is all speculation on my part, but seeing as everyone is guessing at this stage, I find it's best to guess using logic. And if I'm wrong? Well, it's the internet. No one will remember. :smalltongue:

Drolyt

2010-12-11, 12:20 PM

And I would argue that assertion is dead wrong. Epic levels are not something commonly reached - it is never a leap to assume someone is not epic unless there is good evidence that they are. There is not here.
I disagree completely. Your logic would work perfectly if we took some random person off the street; the odds of that person being epic would be equal to the proportion of epic characters in the setting. Instead we have a character who we know is at least as strong as the Order of the Stick, rules one third of a continent, and is seemingly set up as a major villain. At that point all bets are off.

It is illogical, as we have no actual evidence pointing to him being epic, and your "gut" telling you otherwise doesn't change that one bit. By definition, "gut" impressions are not based on logic, they're just reflexive reactions.
I never claimed my gut reaction to be an argument in and of themselves. Evolution has put much effort into making sure the gut gives good instincts, but of course they can be wrong. I think the bigger problem here is that my evidence (rule of drama, authority equals asskicking, in the blood) are all out of universe arguments you refuse to accept.

Because the classes of people related to you have nothing to do with what class you are. Hence why Roy is not a Wizard even though his father is, or why V is not a Ranger even though her parents were.
First, and I'm not saying I doubt you I simply don't remember, when is it revealed who V's parents are? As for Roy, in fact his relations did have that effect. He came from a long line of Fighters and had an ancestral sword to prove it. His father was the anomaly. Again, there is no in universe reason for Elan and Tarquin to share class types, but there is a thematic reason.

It is true that we have scant evidence of his capabilities at this point, but assuming that they are closer to the minimum possible than to the maximum is not a bad assumption to make. Quite the contrary, it is the safer, more reasonable assumption to make.
See, I don't see how assuming they are closer to the minimum is the safer more reasonable assumption to make.

The fact that they are illogical is a flaw in them. The fact that there is no correlation whatsoever between several things you attempt to put forth as evidence and what you claim they are evidence of is what makes them illogical, and I have pointed out where that is the case - e.g. Nale and Elan's class being presented as evidence of Tarquin's, or assuming that Tarquin knowing what Girard looks like means the two have fought and Tarquin was able to hold his own and that he is thus high or epic level. Because of this, your arguments by and large simply make no sense, which is a pretty bad flaw.
My point is that stating they are illogical instead of or in addition to actually pointing out logical flaws serves no purpose. I would argue that they do make sense, and I think the disconnect here is that I make out of universe arguments involving story conventions rather than in universe ones.

You are misreading my statements then, as I am not attempting to come off as emotional, harsh, or confrontational, but am simply pointing out the rather significant problems I see with your arguments.

Zevox
Then I apologize for suggesting otherwise.

...

"Non-epic"="so weak." Your argument that Tarquin should be epic apparently consists of "you can't prove he isn't." And you actually typed "I don't get why people make assumptions" with a straight face? You're the one making huge assumptions here. Saying "my gut tells me" doesn't make something not an assumption.
While it is true that I have no proof Tarquin is epic, I'm not really trying to convince others he is. I simply was trying to argue that we shouldn't assume he isn't until further evidence presents itself.

As for the other part of the question, why do people think Tarquin is a fighter type, maybe because he wears plate and all the skills he's demonstrated so far are combat skills? You know...because all the actual evidence we have so far points that way, nonevidence like "his sons are a bard and a tri-classed faux-bard and I don't think fighters are nearly cool enough for him to be one of them" aside?
Again, we are dealing with a story. "his sons are a bard and a tri-classed faux-bard" is pretty decent evidence in my book. Also, remember that Tarquin raised Nale, so he may have influenced his abilities. Finally, one point I forgot to mention in my original post is that sorcery/bardic magic runs in the blood, which is good evidence Tarquin may have arcane magic.

Anyway, it seems to me that your thought processes have two main flaws. The first is that you seem to equate power and intelligence, when the two are not necessarily related. Remember Shojo, brilliant manipulator who also knew significant details about the other gates and their leaders, yet died in a single slash? Tarquin could have easily done all he needed without also being strong, much as his namesake, Grand Moff Tarkin, had a higher position than Darth Vader despite being much weaker than him. Tarquin conquered with his armies, not with his weapons.
I understand Tarquin could very well not be epic. I simply presented some of his accomplishments in an effort to show that him being epic isn't unreasonable.

The second flaw is that you are accusing others of making the mistake of "assuming", so it's okay for you to assume differently. But you're forgetting that while yes, it is a bit of an assumption to assume that Tarquin is a non-epic fighter, based on the evidence provided so far, it is the likeliest answer. Is it possible that further evidence will reveal that that assumption is false? Sure, but it's illogical to hold as true some other assumption which is not as likely.
I don't hold the other assumption as true, my only argument is that it is at least as likely.

Orzel

2010-12-11, 12:27 PM

If I were to guess the level and classes, I would have little evidence to use. We never seen him seriously fight for more than a panel. All we really have is that Tarquin is strong enough to survive being overthrown violently, duel Current Elan without his prc bonus without a scrath, fight the first version of the Linear Guild and survive (he would have mention if someone died and had to be rezzed), and still be useful to a cleric who can cast Blade Barrier.

That make him very likely level 10 with at least some levels in a full BAB class OR at least a couple levels over Elan/Nale. This is the most that can be inferred without jumping throuugh many hoops. Of course this doesn't say much.

Zevox

2010-12-11, 12:43 PM

I disagree completely. [...] Instead we have a character who we know is at least as strong as the Order of the Stick,
We know nothing of the sort. As I pointed out, what we know about Tarquin could well have him as lower level than the Order. All we've seen him do is defend himself against and then disarm Elan, the former of which requires only a high AC (which is not dependent on level unless you're a monk, but rather on equipment), the latter of which does not require him to be more than middling level and a fighter-type, with good strength and/or a magic weapon.

rules one third of a continent, and is seemingly set up as a major villain.
Neither of which necessarily mean anything at all for his level, but rather have demonstrated his skill at leadership and planning.

Really, the only reason him being epic is even an option is because he's a former adventurer, and adventurers tend to level up much more rapidly than anyone else (as jidasfire quite reasonably pointed out - try checking his post for a much more rational take on Tarquin's potential level, though I don't agree with everything he says). But since we know nothing about his adventuring days we cannot say what level he reached at that time, and what we've seen of him most certainly does not point to him being epic.

I never claimed my gut reaction to be an argument in and of themselves.
Then why even post it?

I think the bigger problem here is that my evidence (rule of drama, authority equals asskicking, in the blood) are all out of universe arguments you refuse to accept.
No, the problem is that your "evidence" simply does not logically lead to the conclusions you put forth.

First, and I'm not saying I doubt you I simply don't remember, when is it revealed who V's parents are?
On the Origin of PCs, if memory serves (my own copy of it has been lent to a friend just at the moment, but I'm pretty sure it was mentioned when her background was explained for the "Iron Mage" show).

Again, there is no in universe reason for Elan and Tarquin to share class types, but there is a thematic reason.
Except that there is not. Elan and Nale are similar for thematic reasons, due to Nale's "evil opposites" theme with the Order (and also because Nale's multiclassing making him an overcomplicated Bard makes for good irony with his stated belief that Bards are underpowered). Tarquin has no connection to that theme, however, so there is no reason to assume that his children's classes mean anything at all for his.

See, I don't see how assuming they are closer to the minimum is the safer more reasonable assumption to make.
...because that's simple logic? Ever heard of Occam's Razor - the scientific principle which basically states that, all else being equal, the simplest answer to any given question is best? Well, the simplest answer to what any given character's level is is always the minimum that can be shown to be necessary for what they are capable of.

Also, remember that Tarquin raised Nale, so he may have influenced his abilities.
Considering we know he told Nale that Bards are underpowered yet Nale still would up basically an overcomplicated Bard-equivalent, that seems like quite the stretch.

Finally, one point I forgot to mention in my original post is that sorcery/bardic magic runs in the blood, which is good evidence Tarquin may have arcane magic.
Or that their mother may. You know, the one who has been seen singing in a Bard-like manner in a flashback (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)? Or it could be a further-back ancestor. Not everyone in a family needs to have levels in a spontaneous casting class simply because that family is capable of developing those abilities.

Zevox

Drolyt

2010-12-11, 12:59 PM

Really, the only reason him being epic is even an option is because he's a former adventurer, and adventurers tend to level up much more rapidly than anyone else (as jidasfire quite reasonably pointed out - try checking his post for a much more rational take on Tarquin's potential level, though I don't agree with everything he says). But since we know nothing about his adventuring days we cannot say what level he reached at that time, and what we've seen of him most certainly does not point to him being epic.
I don't see how it most certainly does not point to him being epic.

Then why even post it?
Not sure.

No, the problem is that your "evidence" simply does not logically lead to the conclusions you put forth.
See, we disagree on this. I suppose we just have to agree that we disagree, because we don't seem to be convincing each other.

On the Origin of PCs, if memory serves (my own copy of it has been lent to a friend just at the moment, but I'm pretty sure it was mentioned when her background was explained for the "Iron Mage" show).
I'll check that out later, thanks.

Except that there is not. Elan and Nale are similar for thematic reasons, due to Nale's "evil opposites" theme with the Order (and also because Nale's multiclassing making him an overcomplicated Bard makes for good irony with his stated belief that Bards are underpowered). Tarquin has no connection to that theme, however, so there is no reason to assume that his children's classes mean anything at all for his.
Hmm, I disagree, but you have a valid point.

...because that's simple logic? Ever heard of Occam's Razor - the scientific principle which basically states that, all else being equal, the simplest answer to any given question is best? Well, the simplest answer to what any given character's level is is always the minimum that can be shown to be necessary for what they are capable of.
Occam's Razor is a useful tool, but it is not irrefutable logic. It applies, essentially, to describing a very complex system where two or more theories would work equally well given the evidence. In this case we have insufficient evidence to even form a theory, so using Occam's Razor would not lead to a more likely answer. At any rate that is assuming your statement about the simplest answer being the minimum level given what they are capable of is correct.

Considering we know he told Nale that Bards are underpowered yet Nale still would up basically an overcomplicated Bard-equivalent, that seems like quite the stretch.
Nale is shown to be an idiot, Tarquin a genius. It is reasonable to assume Nale didn't get whatever Tarquin was teaching him.

Or that their mother may. You know, the one who has been seen singing in a Bard-like manner in a flashback (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)? Or it could be a further-back ancestor. Not everyone in a family needs to have levels in a spontaneous casting class simply because that family is capable of developing those abilities.

Zevox
True, I'm simply presenting possibilities here.

Zevox

2010-12-11, 01:13 PM

I don't see how it most certainly does not point to him being epic.
Because none of the evidence we have does point to him being epic.

At any rate that is assuming your statement about the simplest answer being the minimum level given what they are capable of is correct.
Why would that be in doubt? By definition, the simplest explanation is the one with the least prerequisites, which would most easily logically explain what we've seen a character do.

Nale is shown to be an idiot, Tarquin a genius. It is reasonable to assume Nale didn't get whatever Tarquin was teaching him.
Which would be an argument for Nale's classes not reflecting on Tarquin's, no?

Zevox

Jallorn

2010-12-11, 01:22 PM

I'm just going to make one short argument here:

It's safest to assume that a character is only as powerful as they have been shown to be. Yes, they could be stronger, and in this case, I do think Tarquin is a few levels above Elan, but there is no really solid evidence that he is in fact epic.

Occam's Razor, I think it's called, the simplest answer is usually correct.

Wikiality

2010-12-11, 02:56 PM

Why do people think Tarquin is some variation of a fighter class? Mostly because there have been several panels showing Tarquin wielding axes, swords, shields, and daggers, but there has yet to be one showing any casting ability. Also, Malak's stated attitude towards healing his party makes it highly likely that Tarquin doesn't possess any divine spellcasting abilities. All this suggests a class with a melee focus.

Besides, Tarquin doesn’t need casting abilities to follow the trend established by his sons. When you think about a bard or a multiclass fighter/rogue/sorcerer, you think about great versatility; and while Tarquin might not have a class that gives him the same range of options, he has shown great flexibility already. Being able to wield several different weapons and being able to counter an obscure combat style all suggest that.

As for the idea of Tarquin being weak, I've only seen one poster --an obvious troll-- call Tarquin a weakling. The rest tend to argue about what level he is and where he ranks in comparison to other characters. Personally, I think he is a higher level than the OotS, but there is no definitive evidence either way.

Drolyt

2010-12-11, 03:07 PM

Deliverance

2010-12-11, 03:59 PM

Burner28

2010-12-11, 04:04 PM

(Though I fully expect Rick to continue writing Tarquin in a way that makes it impossible to narrow down his level or abilities too much - given that Tarquin is being written as an enigmatic magnificent bastard with no qualms about outright lying or shading the truth, he can only lose in impact on the readers by being made more knowable).

We only saw him lie once

Kish

2010-12-11, 04:11 PM

That all depends on granting his Lawful Evil concept of lying more weight than it really deserves.

Legalistic phrasing aside, he's as morally culpable for deceiving the Ambassador as he would be if he had said, "Of course the troops are there to help you!" And his entire current existence is a lie. His supposedly serving the Empress of Blood is a lie, the Empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears are lies. He is made of deception and would turn into smoke and blow away if Durkon cast True Seeing at him--metaphorically speaking, of course.

Burner28

2010-12-11, 04:14 PM

Of course while he does mislead, there is no reason not to assume that he simply don't just tells the truth, but in an unconventional way.

Deliverance

2010-12-11, 04:59 PM

We only saw him lie once
We saw him giving two explanations that cannot both be true for how he got to where he is not (725 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html) and 758 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html)). We saw him mislead the ambassador. We have been told by him that he runs his whole life based on deceiving the world.

Pardon me if I consider him an untrustworthy narrator, who lives a lie, and who is liable to lie whenever it serves him better than telling the truth - and vice versa.

Heck, we don't know if he has told the truth about anything of importance since the things he has told us have not been corroborated by anybody or have not been checked. We do have his own word for running the biggest swindle around, though, but perhaps he is lying even about that. :smalltongue:

Emo Samurai

2010-12-11, 05:40 PM

In my experience, epic-level characters are usually really weird. Like they'll have a spell that makes them grow to colossal size so they can beat down dragons, or be actually able to turn into a dragon at will, or they'll build a machine that'll kill you if you don't know the codes, which are written down on illegible notes scattered through an enormous castle that looks like a carved egg, or they'll be wild mages who can teleport you into Dream World with a misfired Ignite spell and have an evil psionic warrior twin brother who lives in a magic mirror and switches places with him periodically. Or they'll be like Xykon, who kills powerful wizards just to take their sweet-looking crowns, and that's not even that quirky, so he's low twenties at best. Tarquin just doesn't have enough idiosyncrasies. Sure, he can deconstruct crappy hero stories, but that makes him MORE normal than the people who listen to them, not less.

Zmflavius

2010-12-11, 05:55 PM

Of course while he does mislead, there is no reason not to assume that he simply don't just tells the truth, but in an unconventional way.

Well technically, that's lying by omission. Telling the truth, just not all of it.

Burner28

2010-12-11, 05:59 PM

Telling the truth, just not all of it.

Exactly.. Perfectly Lawful behaviour

Kish

2010-12-11, 06:21 PM

Perfectly Lawful Evil behavior. Also known as "lying."

Burner28

2010-12-11, 06:24 PM

Perfectly Lawful Evil behavior. Also known as "lying."

Actually, if a chaotic character can hypothetically by DnD rules lie and still remain Good, then why can't a lawful character tell the truth in a unconventional way and remain Good by Dnd terms?:smallconfused:

Kish

2010-12-11, 06:33 PM

Actually, if a chaotic character can hypothetically by DnD rules lie and still remain Good, then why can't a lawful character tell the truth in a unconventional way and remain Good by Dnd terms?:smallconfused:
What does that have to do with Tarquin?

Burner28

2010-12-11, 06:36 PM

Hold on, you got a good point. We are most likely getting out of topic. Emm..... Well, he isn't epic level.

hamishspence

2010-12-11, 06:39 PM

We saw him giving two explanations that cannot both be true for how he got to where he is not (725 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html) and 758 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html)).

Malack could have "found him and offered him a job"- specifically because he's been instructed to do it that way by Tarquin after The Plan was laid out.

Deliverance

2010-12-11, 08:20 PM

Malack could have "found him and offered him a job"- specifically because he's been instructed to do it that way by Tarquin after The Plan was laid out.
That would require accepting that "he found me" is a truthful presentation of a series of actions that go "I found him, told him my plan, and told him to find me once he had a job (something I left up to him rather than planning myself despite me being the schemer)", since laying out the plan required Tarquin to find Malack first, and that furthermore Malack lost track of Tarquin after being specifically instructed by Tarquin in what he should do and had to find Tarquin again rather than correspond with him via a channel of communication that any sensible magnificent bastard would have created. (Or he could just have asked Malack to memorize sending once he had a target, which wouldn't require Malack to find Tarquin in order to report in as instructed).

No... While it is possible to construct a hypothetical situation in which #725 and #758 are both absolutely true, I think I'll stick with my theory that "Tarquin lied in at least one one of the two descriptions of how he ended up in business here". :smallbiggrin:

Emo Samurai

2010-12-11, 08:34 PM

Let's compare Tarquin to Xykon.

Xykon we KNOW to be an epic-level character, probably low-epic. At what scale and with how much ease does he act? He gets a subordinate that he can cow into abject obedience to effortlessly take over an entire nation of hobgoblins by himself, then uses that army that he built up overnight to wipe out the capital of one of the most stable and powerful countries in the world. And even though his subordinate is the leader of this people, Xykon threatens both him and everyone else in this nation and the only reaction is hastened obedience. He repeatedly hints, with great credibility, that he could kill them all just for laughs.

Tarquin is definitely a badass, I will admit that, but he labors in fear of enemies that Xykon could probably crush without much effort. I highly doubt that a village could have chased Xykon away even while he was human. Judging from their respective pasts, there is just no comparing their power levels. At most, he's 2, maybe 3 levels above Roy, but I won't give him anything more.

cho_j

2010-12-11, 09:36 PM

All that was several years ago, before Elan and Nale were born (he has baby Nale with him when he explains his new plan to his party).

Wait, I'm confused by that sentence. First of all, "several years ago" would be when Nale and Elan were teens... I assume you meant MANY years ago? Secondly, I think having baby Nale with him means the whole conquering the continent phase of Tarquin's life began AFTER the kids were born. Indeed, I thought it was what he did after the divorce. At least, that's how I read strip 751 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html). Elan asks if he left their family "just to go conquer a new country," so obviously the family must have existed prior to T's conquests.

I know, that was relatively minor, but I felt it might help clear some things up for this discussion to continue (or, if I'm totally wrong, someone please explain what I misread).

Drolyt

2010-12-11, 10:08 PM

Wait, I'm confused by that sentence. First of all, "several years ago" would be when Nale and Elan were teens... I assume you meant MANY years ago? Secondly, I think having baby Nale with him means the whole conquering the continent phase of Tarquin's life began AFTER the kids were born. Indeed, I thought it was what he did after the divorce. At least, that's how I read strip 751 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html). Elan asks if he left their family "just to go conquer a new country," so obviously the family must have existed prior to T's conquests.

I know, that was relatively minor, but I felt it might help clear some things up for this discussion to continue (or, if I'm totally wrong, someone please explain what I misread).
You didn't misread anything, I messed up. Looking back at 725 and 758, he must have decided to conquer the western continent immediately after the divorce, and then came up with his plan to rule secretly almost immediately after that, because Nale was a baby in both cases (unless I'm misunderstanding the art). In that case Tarquin may have adventured with his party before his failed conquests rather than after. And yes, I did mean many rather than several.

KillItWithFire

2010-12-11, 11:33 PM

epic level characters are people that are, well epic. In order to pass from 0th level (which is not easy in of itself) into the epic levels you need to perform some sort of epic feat. Somthing the bards write about.Tarquins plan for ruling the desert, while clever is not epic material. The order of the Scrible is responisble for locking away a god-killing abomination. Until Tarquin performs something like that, he is not epic. I am of the opinion that he is of a higher level than Elan seeing as he was already an established party leader and adventurer when Elan and Nale were born. That being said I put Tarquin at 14-16. Mostly a melee class. Probably fighter as a fighter is the only class I know of proficent in the wide range of weapons we've seen Tarquin use. Elan when denied his only compotent ability was defeated by a melee oriented class that has one or two levels on him and a whole bunch of magical equipment easily at his disposal. Yeah I'm not surprised.

EDIT: Is there really a concrete definition on the word several? I could see 30 or so years be several.

Deliverance

2010-12-12, 08:30 AM

EDIT: Is there really a concrete definition on the word several? I could see 30 or so years be several.
Well, the concrete definition is "more than one, distinct from each other", which indeed does cover 30 or 711 or three-billion-and-nine, but it is common usage to use "several" when some other inexact quantifier doesn't more accurately express the general range.

As an example, a value around 30 would be more accurately narrowed down by any of the following: "dozens" (which gives a lower range of 24 and no theoretical upper range but it is seldom used for more than four dozen since "scores" come into play then) or even better "more than a score" (people will read that as more than one score, less than two).

"Scores" is seldom used for numbers higher than a hundred, since any number that you know is at least a three-digit quantity and probably not a four-digit quantity is "hundreds" (unless you think it is less than 200, in which case it might be "more than a hundred".

And so on and so forth. If something happened roughly 130-150 years ago, you'd likely use "seven-score" rather than "more than a hundred" unless your intention was as making a generic "very long time ago that doesn't matter" comment.

--------------

If you don't even know a general range of the quanitity being discussed, you are left with "few", "several", "many", etc in which case usage depends on context. Tage age as an example. 30 years are "many" years when talking about events in the lifetime of a single person but can more accurately be described as "several" if taking a historical view not focused on the individual and might be "few" in a grand sweep of history that analysed trends rather than events.

Note: There are dialects in which "several" is colloquially used to mean "a great many". In those 30 years in the lifetime of a man would almost certainly be described as "several".

Drolyt

2010-12-12, 08:31 AM

KillItWithFire

2010-12-12, 08:42 AM

Um... by your definition, how is Xykon epic? He has failed at pretty much everything he's done so far, it is just that he's gotten really strong in the process.

Have you read SoD? neither have I but
He messed up Lirans gate pretty bad, and Liran was epic

That aside he is the main villian of the comic and his goals could engulf the entire universe insted of just one desert. Ruling a kingdom does not make you epic. By that logic Shojo was epic. Royalty is something that sort of comes from BEING epic. Not the other way around.

Drolyt

2010-12-12, 10:17 AM

Have you read SoD? neither have I but
He messed up Lirans gate pretty bad, and Liran was epic

That aside he is the main villian of the comic and his goals could engulf the entire universe insted of just one desert. Ruling a kingdom does not make you epic. By that logic Shojo was epic. Royalty is something that sort of comes from BEING epic. Not the other way around.
Oh, Xykon is definitely epic. He owned Lirian and Dorukan in SoD (I have read it). But he was epic before that, and we have no evidence of him doing anything but running around being a cliched homicidal maniac until Redcloak came along.

KillItWithFire

2010-12-12, 11:07 AM

Oh, Xykon is definitely epic. He owned Lirian and Dorukan in SoD (I have read it). But he was epic before that

I have not read SoD and I did not know he was epic before that. Does it explicity state that or are you assuming that based on his sheer power alone?

That point aside, do you honestly think Tarquin is of comparable power to Xykon? Somehow I think we would have heard of Tarquin prior to this if he was epic.

RecklessFable

2010-12-12, 11:11 AM

RE: Tarquin's Epicness:
That whole fight proves little, unfortunately, because in D&D Defense has little to do with level except for some classes. His AC could have been in the Elan "needs a 20 to hit" range even as a commoner with magic items fighting defensively.

That being said, his expoits have certainly generated a LOT of XP. He is, almost certainly, a few levels higher than The Order of the Stick based on XP and age alone. Epic? Not necessarily...

Oh, and I vote for levels of Marshal. Motivate Charisma would be useful for him. And maybe a dip into a class that has UMD?

I'm sure his full power will become apparent at an appropriately dramatic moment! :smallbiggrin:

RE: Tarquin's alignment:
He claims to not believe in alignment, but he is clearly in the lower left corner of the box (LE). He creates order in a naughty way.

Hake

2010-12-12, 11:37 AM

I have a few wild theories about Tarquin as well but it doesn't seem too big a leap to assume he is this "gish" type. The main reason for the assumption (not a strong case but eh) is Nale's build. Tarquin has already stated that he was raising Nale to be "ruthless and efficient" also given that Tarquin has been adventuring himself it doesn't seem like a stretch to say he dropped a few hints on what classes Nale should take. Nale's massive ego and habit of making things needlessly complicated he simply deviated from his father's suggestions.

As far as not seeing much of Tarquin's combat abilities it just seems to fit what kind of villain he is. Tarquin withholds information dealing only as much damage as necessary (ex. comic 756 when he backstabs an ally even though the "weepies" were already guarranteed to win and comic 722 where he could have easily beaten elan, v, and haley in a fight).

The only things that suggest Tarquin isn't "epic" are the Captain (and potential future bride) injuring Tarquin after learning of his betrayal and the possibility of Tarquin having powerful armor and items that could have put him over the edge against Elan.

Shale

2010-12-12, 11:50 AM

I have not read SoD and I did not know he was epic before that. Does it explicity state that or are you assuming that based on his sheer power alone?

He took out the two primary spellcasters of the Order of the Scribble toe-to-toe, and both had reached epic levels decades before he found them.

Drolyt

2010-12-12, 11:52 AM

I have not read SoD and I did not know he was epic before that. Does it explicity state that or are you assuming that based on his sheer power alone?
I don't remember it ever stating he was epic. I could be wrong, but I think the first definitive proof of his epicness is when he starts casting epic spells. If I remember right (SoD spoiler)
Xykon is randomly killing off Paladins, probably some outpost of the Sapphire Guard. Redcloak just happened to be there for the same reason, with a small army. Xykon handles the whole fort by himself. Redcloak convinces him to join up for the gate plan, and they spend a lot of time searching and find Lirian's gate. They hold their own against Lirian and her allies, but she creates a poison that robs people of spells. Redcloak is immune because of the Crimson Mantle, and turns Xykon into a Lich in order to make him immune as well. Then they defeat Lirian, and latter they defeat Dorukan. So yeah I think Xykon was already epic when he met Redcloak, but I'm not certain. He had previously defeated Roy's dad's mentor, and that should not have been easy.

That point aside, do you honestly think Tarquin is of comparable power to Xykon? Somehow I think we would have heard of Tarquin prior to this if he was epic.
I don't think he is, but he might be. Nobody really knew who Xykon was in universe, or the Order of the Scribble for that matter. Epic types seem to be good at keeping a low profile in the Order of the Stick.

Edit: I guess my point here was that you said being epic entailed doing epic things, but as far as I can tell Xykon was epic when he met Redcloak but up until that time he didn't do anything epic at all.

Deliverance

2010-12-12, 11:57 AM

The only things that suggest Tarquin isn't "epic" are the Captain (and potential future bride) injuring Tarquin after learning of his betrayal and the possibility of Tarquin having powerful armor and items that could have put him over the edge against Elan.
Really, REALLY?

In a game system where epic characters are by design supposed to be extremely rare, the base assumption must surely be that a character isn't epic unless he is revealed to be by his actions or by word of god - not that he has epic levels unless proven otherwise.

So the approach should be to look for things that suggest he is of epic levels. Nothing of the sort has been observed in OOTS until now.

As for the idea that Tarquin either has to either be epic level or have powerful armour and items in order to give him an edge against Elan, words fail me.

Elan is, in game terms, not a particularly strong melee combatant for his level. He was an exceptionally weak melee combatant until he got his dashing swordsman level(s), and the bonuses provided by DS only apply under certain circumstances.

We haven't seen any indication that Elan, with DS applying, are in the same melee category as Roy or Belkar when they are fighting without magical items, to take two non-epic characters we have seen fighting in the strip, and when he was fighting Tarquin he didn't get his DS bonus.

Drolyt

2010-12-12, 12:02 PM

In a game system where epic characters are by design supposed to be extremely rare, the base assumption must surely be that a character isn't epic unless he is revealed to be by his actions or by word of god - not that he has epic levels unless proven otherwise.

So the approach should be to look for things that suggest he is of epic levels.
See, this is where I disagree. The base assumption, by my mind, should be "I have no clue". The approach should be to look for both things that suggest he is epic level, and things that suggest he is not, and until we have sufficient evidence to not make assumptions. I lean towards him being epic, but I admit I might be wrong.

Volthawk

2010-12-12, 12:04 PM

I highly doubt that a village could have chased Xykon away even while he was human.

If you're referring to the the people who kicked him out of his empire, that wasn't just a village. It was a coalition of 26 nations. He'd also taken over 11 kingdoms.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html)

KillItWithFire

2010-12-12, 12:37 PM

I don't remember it ever stating he was epic. I could be wrong, but I think the first definitive proof of his epicness is when he starts casting epic spells. If I remember right (SoD spoiler)
Xykon is randomly killing off Paladins, probably some outpost of the Sapphire Guard. Redcloak just happened to be there for the same reason, with a small army. Xykon handles the whole fort by himself. Redcloak convinces him to join up for the gate plan, and they spend a lot of time searching and find Lirian's gate. They hold their own against Lirian and her allies, but she creates a poison that robs people of spells. Redcloak is immune because of the Crimson Mantle, and turns Xykon into a Lich in order to make him immune as well. Then they defeat Lirian, and latter they defeat Dorukan. So yeah I think Xykon was already epic when he met Redcloak, but I'm not certain. He had previously defeated Roy's dad's mentor, and that should not have been easy.

From my limited understanding of SoD plot I had come to the conclusion that he had become epic around the time he became a lich and defeated Lirian.

Edit: I guess my point here was that you said being epic entailed doing epic things, but as far as I can tell Xykon was epic when he met Redcloak but up until that time he didn't do anything epic at all.

I have a sourcebook somewhere around here that deals with the rules for epics characters.... (rifles through a extremely disheveled room and collection of books) Aparantly the DMs guide has a section on the epic transition however my copy is on loan to my groups current DM. Complete Warrior however states that there must be some sort of reason for becomming epic and gives 3 sort of general examples.
1. defeating a legendary oppenent or group
2. A major accomplishment (Jason assembleing the Argonauts and finding the golden fleece)
3.being the wielder a legendary weapon (excalibur)

As far as I know Tarquin has done none of these. His power may be noteable but once you get past 15th level your power is significant and you are a pretty big deal. Epic is something different entirely. It is something special and while yes power is a hallmark of being epic it is not all that it is.

Kish

2010-12-12, 12:38 PM

See, this is where I disagree. The base assumption, by my mind, should be "I have no clue".
That would make sense, if the adventuring population was something like evenly split between epic and non-epic adventurers.

In real-world terms, substitute "a billionaire" wherever you have "epic."

martianmister

2010-12-12, 12:47 PM

1. defeating a legendary oppenent or group
2. A major accomplishment (Jason assembleing the Argonauts and finding the golden fleece)
3.being the wielder a legendary weapon (excalibur)

Conquering of 11 nations isn't counts?

hamishspence

2010-12-12, 01:03 PM

No... While it is possible to construct a hypothetical situation in which #725 and #758 are both absolutely true, I think I'll stick with my theory that "Tarquin lied in at least one one of the two descriptions of how he ended up in business here". :smallbiggrin:

It actually works quite well-

Step 1- Outline Plan.
Step 2- each member seeks out a possible "sucker" to rule behind.
Step 3- the group "finds each other" again- assesses the suckers, chooses 3, and assigns two members to each chosen sucker.

Tarquin and Malack, assigned themselves to Malack's chosen sucker.
Carry on from there.

Deliverance

2010-12-12, 01:10 PM

See, this is where I disagree. The base assumption, by my mind, should be "I have no clue".

That is a good sign of an open mind. It is also not an assumption about Tarquin's level, since it is not an assumption at all but a statement of fact about your own thought processes - in other words, your statement is the fertile field on which one can erect an assumption.

To quote, "An assumption is a proposition that is taken for granted, as if it were true based upon presupposition without preponderance of the facts."

The "base assumptions" are the quick-and-dirty assumption made at the start of the examination of facts that remain in force until supplanted by more fully fledged assumptions. They are often very broad, used to categorize, or based on either probabilities or statistics. If it is believed that A is more likely than ~A in the system examinded all else being equal, then the base assumption is A.

KillItWithFire

2010-12-12, 02:47 PM

Conquering of 11 nations isn't counts?

While impressive it just doesn't seem like epic material to me.

Which is my entire argument. Tarquin is most certainly powerful and high level characters tend to be that way. What I'm saying is that I very much doubt that Tarquin is epic but that doesn't mean he can't be impressive.

Morty

2010-12-12, 02:53 PM

Conquering of 11 nations isn't counts?

Anywhere else, perhaps. But on the Western Continent nations come and go, conquered and re-conquered.

hamishspence

2010-12-12, 03:01 PM

Now, yes- but was it that bad 20-odd years ago?

How much of the reputation for countries changing hands a lot, is due to his activities over the last 20 years?

And is conquering 11 nations a bit more unprecedented than conquering one or two before being overthrown?

Drolyt

2010-12-12, 03:42 PM

I have a sourcebook somewhere around here that deals with the rules for epics characters.... (rifles through a extremely disheveled room and collection of books) Aparantly the DMs guide has a section on the epic transition however my copy is on loan to my groups current DM. Complete Warrior however states that there must be some sort of reason for becomming epic and gives 3 sort of general examples.
1. defeating a legendary oppenent or group
2. A major accomplishment (Jason assembleing the Argonauts and finding the golden fleece)
3.being the wielder a legendary weapon (excalibur)
In the Epic Level Handbook that is presented as a variant rule to make becoming epic more meaningful than simply gaining another level. It is supposed to be optional, and I have no idea why Complete Warrior would word it as if it weren't a variant. Generally, to become epic you either need to do something class specific (in which case conquering 11 nations might count depending on Tarquin's class) or complete some sort of quest everyone has to take to become epic. All in all we have no reason to assume those rules are in place in the Order of the Stick, and it is quite possible Xykon and the Order of the Scribble simply had a lot of xp.

That would make sense, if the adventuring population was something like evenly split between epic and non-epic adventurers.

In real-world terms, substitute "a billionaire" wherever you have "epic."
Right, if we take a random person off the street it would be wrong to think it very likely he was a billionaire. But Tarquin is the equivalent of someone we know runs a multinational, it is just a matter of how rich he is.

Conquering of 11 nations isn't counts?
Depends on The Giant's rules for epic levels in Order of the Stick.

That is a good sign of an open mind. It is also not an assumption about Tarquin's level, since it is not an assumption at all but a statement of fact about your own thought processes - in other words, your statement is the fertile field on which one can erect an assumption.

To quote, "An assumption is a proposition that is taken for granted, as if it were true based upon presupposition without preponderance of the facts."

The "base assumptions" are the quick-and-dirty assumption made at the start of the examination of facts that remain in force until supplanted by more fully fledged assumptions. They are often very broad, used to categorize, or based on either probabilities or statistics. If it is believed that A is more likely than ~A in the system examinded all else being equal, then the base assumption is A.
This all makes good sense. Still, I don't think we have enough information on Tarquin to make even quick and dirty assumptions.

Now, yes- but was it that bad 20-odd years ago?

How much of the reputation for countries changing hands a lot, is due to his activities over the last 20 years?

And is conquering 11 nations a bit more unprecedented than conquering one or two before being overthrown?
I honestly never thought of it this way. I had assumed the Western Continent was always like that, but the alternate possibility, that Tarquin and Co. caused that, and that Tarquin had conquered 11 normal nations, would change things dramatically. That said I doubt it, especially given his excuse that uniting the Western Continent would bring peace, a pretty lame excuse if Tarquin caused all the wars. As for how common it is to conquer 11 nations, I had assumed it was unprecedented from the way the guys in the prison talked about it. Maybe that is why I tend to think of Tarquin as higher level.

KillItWithFire

2010-12-12, 03:52 PM

In the Epic Level Handbook that is presented as a variant rule to make becoming epic more meaningful than simply gaining another level. It is supposed to be optional, and I have no idea why Complete Warrior would word it as if it weren't a variant. Generally, to become epic you either need to do something class specific (in which case conquering 11 nations might count depending on Tarquin's class) or complete some sort of quest everyone has to take to become epic. All in all we have no reason to assume those rules are in place in the Order of the Stick, and it is quite possible Xykon and the Order of the Scribble simply had a lot of xp.

The section delt on Epic warriors and how one would become one. Listing Beowulf and Arthur as examples. I've always seen epic level as something that was meaningful, else why would it be epic as opposed to "21st level" and I'll admit this is the first time I've seen it as a variant rule as opposed to just taking off the epic tag and saying that there is no level cap.
EDIT: If you own complete warrior check page 149.

Even if we go by power alone, Tarquin conquered with armies. While that proves that he is a successful general it does not prove he is epic. Epic is a sort of thing where you have to assume them innocent until proven guilty and the only demonstration we have seen thusfar of Tarquins power is of him defeating Elan in a one-on-one, which Roy could do. Is Roy epic? Tarquin is certainly powerful, both as a leader and as a soldier but epic? That is a very bold claim that you can't just throw around without serious proof.

Emo Samurai

2010-12-12, 06:48 PM

If he were anywhere Xykon's level of power he'd go around crushing whole armies with his right fist. Everything he has earned so far was by plotting and generally avoiding the whole problem of personal power.

And as has been said before, Roy could crush Belkar, and Belkar has yet to face a melee fighter he couldn't easily beat aside from Roy and Miko and the blue half-dragon.

Deliverance

2010-12-12, 07:18 PM

This all makes good sense. Still, I don't think we have enough information on Tarquin to make even quick and dirty assumptions.

How about this. "What we have seen in the OOTS prior to reaching the Empire of Blood"

Most people in the D&D are non-epic.
Most adventurers in D&D are non-epic.
Most adventurers we have seen in the OOTS world where levels can be estimated are non-epic.
Most opponents of the OOTS in the OOTS world we have seen where levels can be estimated are non-epic. (In fact, there is only one of them who is epic)
Most of the people in the OOTS world we have seen where levels can be estimated and they are of epic level are dead.
The number of characters known to be currently active in the OOTS world (and not spirits acting for the higher powers) and who are known to be of epic level is one, Xykon. (Girard might still be alive and if he is he might well be epic level increasing the number to two, but we don't know whether this is the case)

Practically any subset of the people of the OOTS world we care to examine, which would include Tarquin &co, contain zero known epic characters before the OOTS reaches the western continent.

Given these observations, it is natural to make the base assumption when a new character is introduced that "he is non-epic like all the others and my guesses as to what he is capable of will follow from this assumption" and to believe that until there's evidence to the contrary.

Sure, you can choose to say "I refuse to make any base assumptions", but if you do you cannot in the same breath raise the "he is probably epic because I think he is awesome and he has done a lot of awesome things (that are not level-related)" argument. At least not without appearing as if you do have some base assumptions about his level after all. :smallbiggrin:

As a silly example, when I walk down the street and see a car I never saw before I do not avoid it because it might carry a car bomb. I assume it doesn't because where I live most cars do not contain bombs (or rather, they haven't until now), but I really have zero evidence either way as to whether that specific car contains a bomb.

In that situation I make an assumption that may very well be proved wrong upon further examination, but in order to act I need to make assumptions where I do not have knowledge and I base my assumption (in this case) on statistics.

Drolyt

2010-12-12, 08:20 PM

How about this. "What we have seen in the OOTS prior to reaching the Empire of Blood"

Most people in the D&D are non-epic.
Most adventurers in D&D are non-epic.
Most adventurers we have seen in the OOTS world where levels can be estimated are non-epic.
Most opponents of the OOTS in the OOTS world we have seen where levels can be estimated are non-epic. (In fact, there is only one of them who is epic)
Most of the people in the OOTS world we have seen where levels can be estimated and they are of epic level are dead.
The number of characters known to be currently active in the OOTS world (and not spirits acting for the higher powers) and who are known to be of epic level is one, Xykon. (Girard might still be alive and if he is he might well be epic level increasing the number to two, but we don't know whether this is the case)

Practically any subset of the people of the OOTS world we care to examine, which would include Tarquin &co, contain zero known epic characters before the OOTS reaches the western continent.

Given these observations, it is natural to make the base assumption when a new character is introduced that "he is non-epic like all the others and my guesses as to what he is capable of will follow from this assumption" and to believe that until there's evidence to the contrary.

Sure, you can choose to say "I refuse to make any base assumptions", but if you do you cannot in the same breath raise the "he is probably epic because I think he is awesome and he has done a lot of awesome things (that are not level-related)" argument. At least not without appearing as if you do have some base assumptions about his level after all. :smallbiggrin:

As a silly example, when I walk down the street and see a car I never saw before I do not avoid it because it might carry a car bomb. I assume it doesn't because where I live most cars do not contain bombs (or rather, they haven't until now), but I really have zero evidence either way as to whether that specific car contains a bomb.

In that situation I make an assumption that may very well be proved wrong upon further examination, but in order to act I need to make assumptions where I do not have knowledge and I base my assumption (in this case) on statistics.
I can't really argue with your reasoning, but I still think there is a good probability that he is epic. After all, we don't know of any epic characters in the most war torn area of the world, and who better thematically than Tarquin (not that there [I]has[/I to be epic characters on the Western Continent, but with all that war you'd think you'd have a lot of high level characters). Also, it is heavily implied (if not known for sure) that Girard and the halfling woman are still alive, and they should both be epic.

Zmflavius

2010-12-12, 10:20 PM

I can't really argue with your reasoning, but I still think there is a good probability that he is epic. After all, we don't know of any epic characters in the most war torn area of the world, and who better thematically than Tarquin (not that there [I]has[/I to be epic characters on the Western Continent, but with all that war you'd think you'd have a lot of high level characters).

While I see what you're saying, the fact is that south of the Elves, the amount of war, rather than creating lots of Epic characters, actually tends to kill them off faster. It's been made clear that people have a habit of not lasting long in the western continent, because of the war, and this applies to the rulers as well. The rulers who got xp through the wars usually tend to die because the next people who show up manage to get them killed, wasting the xp gained from their killing. Furthermore, most of the killing is done through clashes of armies of grunts, so not much xp makes its way back to the rulers anyhow, and the chances of grunts getting levels are minimal to none.

Tyndmyr

2010-12-13, 03:32 AM

I think the rules of dramatic convention, along with the request that Elan come back in a few years push for Tarquin being significantly higher level than Elan. While this doesn't necessarily make him epic, it does push him in that direction.

I would agree with this. Rules of drama thus dictate that he's far more powerful than Elan....ie, higher level. Yes, we're all aware that power isn't a direct correlation with level, but in OOTS world, there's a pretty strong correlation.

We do know that Tarquin has the requisite mental stats to be a caster. Cha especially, though I see no lack of int either. This isn't proof, but it's a necessary prereq to being a caster.

He also does have a demonstrated solid knowledge of tactics. Therefore, he'd certainly know the value of magic.

He has no compunction against using magic in general, as shown by his stash of magic items.

He also knows a bit about casting in general. See, "mage does not know teleport". This isn't an indication of being a caster himself, but it does hint at ranks in spellcraft or knowledge(arcana).

Therefore, he has the ability to learn it, the knowledge of it's value, and no other countering beliefs. This leaves open the strong possibility that he has some magic.

On the flip side, he does wear armor. This is hardly a show stopper, but it does indicate that he probably has some martial prowness. I could easily see eldritch knight or some similar gish build in there.

Edit: We can reasonably expect that whatever class he is has a fair amount of skill points. IE, he's not a single classed fighter. The guy clearly has amazing social skills and at least solid knowledge skills. His charisma is apparently high, sure, but this does eliminate some of the more traditional melee options. Heavy Fighter, barbarian seem highly unlikely. Paladin does as well, for alignment reasons. Keep in mind that OOTS is heavily core biased, so the build isn't likely to be too obscure.

Red XIV

2010-12-14, 10:31 PM

I honestly never thought of it this way. I had assumed the Western Continent was always like that, but the alternate possibility, that Tarquin and Co. caused that, and that Tarquin had conquered 11 normal nations, would change things dramatically.
I would say the chances of Tarquin and company having caused the Western Continent's reputation for constantly-overthrown kingdoms to be somewhere close to zero. After all, it was that reputation that drew Tarquin to the place to begin with. He wanted a kingdom and heard it was easy to take over one there, but quickly fell victim to more of the same. That's why he's going with his current plan, where an array of puppet rulers are the ones with the bullseye on their backs. As I recall, it was said that the Western Continent has been like this for centuries, long before Tarquin's group were even born.

Drolyt

2010-12-14, 11:11 PM

Tyndmyr

2010-12-15, 12:07 AM

I have to agree with you, but the idea that he caused the current state of affairs is a lot more badass. Of course we could take a middle ground, where the region was always unstable but the new country every year thing is due to Tarquin.

Thats sort of how I see it. A pretty unstable area to begin with, but once he and his pals moved in...it only got worse. At least, on the surface.

Niveus Candidus

2010-12-15, 01:36 AM

I would say the chances of Tarquin and company having caused the Western Continent's reputation for constantly-overthrown kingdoms to be somewhere close to zero. After all, it was that reputation that drew Tarquin to the place to begin with. He wanted a kingdom and heard it was easy to take over one there, but quickly fell victim to more of the same. That's why he's going with his current plan, where an array of puppet rulers are the ones with the bullseye on their backs. As I recall, it was said that the Western Continent has been like this for centuries, long before Tarquin's group were even born.

While it was alleged to be easy to conquer nations on the continent, I would like to know exactly how such things are measured. Likewise, conquering one nation, and conquering 11 in 8 months is another matter entirely. We know it took the combined might of 26 countries to oust him, meaning whatever he did in those few months were enough to fend off a significant collision of (Presumably) existing armies.

When I read Ian Starshine's description of our favorite general's initial reign of terror, it seemed to directly subvert Tarquin's humility at being defeated. Or, better said: "`OK,' said Judiciary Pag again, `so we won.' He paused and chewed a little gum. `We won,' he repeated, `but that's no big deal. I mean a medium-sized galaxy against one little world,"

Dalek-K

2010-12-15, 06:03 PM

Why is he epic? Because it would be epic that Elan's father was that strong meaning that Elan would have to become epic in order to beat him thus raising the drama... Of course Elan not being epic but defeating his father would be very dramatic also.

So for rules of D&D I would say Tarquin could be around level 19-20 BUT for the sake of the dramatic he would be 21+..... Of course you get XP for roleplaying and I'm sure Tarquin has done enough roleplaying in his life for quite a few people. I would go as far as to wonder if he had an item that boosted dramatic encounter xp thus raising him to epic levels XD *

* no proof but I so want to make a bard that has that can get that item...

KillItWithFire

2010-12-15, 09:12 PM

I have to agree with you, but the idea that he caused the current state of affairs is a lot more badass. Of course we could take a middle ground, where the region was always unstable but the new country every year thing is due to Tarquin.

Wait, so badassery is a criteria for facts now? This is not a compromise it's a written work with it's own literary events. Us wishing something were true an us agreeing that it would be cool won't make it happen. That being said, I find it much more likely that Tarquin did not cause the current state of affairs. The fact that he took over 20+ nations in 8 months tells us nothing more than the fact that he is a good general an aparantly was initially aggressive with his tactics. Nothing we didn't already know. He's above average for certain, but when above average can include levels 16-20 and epic is a pretty special thing, I see little evidence of him being epic as oppose to high level.

Drolyt

2010-12-15, 09:27 PM

Wait, so badassery is a criteria for facts now? This is not a compromise it's a written work with it's own literary events. Us wishing something were true an us agreeing that it would be cool won't make it happen. That being said, I find it much more likely that Tarquin did not cause the current state of affairs. The fact that he took over 20+ nations in 8 months tells us nothing more than the fact that he is a good general an aparantly was initially aggressive with his tactics. Nothing we didn't already know. He's above average for certain, but when above average can include levels 16-20 and epic is a pretty special thing, I see little evidence of him being epic as oppose to high level.
I wasn't making an argument there, I said I agree it is unlikely he caused the current state of affairs, though I did point out may may well have aggravated the situation. Saying something would be cool isn't the same as saying must be that way.

That said, many of the posters here are treating Order of the Stick as if it were real. The fact that something would be badass is evidence in this case. Rich Burlew is a storyteller, a great one in my opinion, and like any great storyteller he doesn't let things like probability get in the way of telling a good story.

Deliverance

2010-12-15, 10:52 PM

That said, many of the posters here are treating Order of the Stick as if it were real. The fact that something would be badass is evidence in this case. Rich Burlew is a storyteller, a great one in my opinion, and like any great storyteller he doesn't let things like probability get in the way of telling a good story.
Fair enough. Let's say it is evidence. The question then arises, "what is it evidence of?"

Let me for the sake of argument immediately reverse your and show how one can use Rich's strong storytelling and Tarquin being badass as evidence of Tarquin being weaker rather than stronger than the OOTS.

(To me) It is more impressive narratively when antagonists, who are not personally more powerful than the protagonists but are good at using the resources they have at their disposal, manage to provide a real challenge for the protagonists to overcome than when the protagonists overcome antagonists who are personally powerful, since the latter often relies on the protagonists taking advantage of some weakness carefully inserted in their strengths to render them null and void when it matters.

And Tarquin is a Magnificent Bastard. For Magnificent Bastards, being badass isn't really about personal power levels but about how they use the power they have. (This actually goes for most characters in fiction, but it is especially pronounced for the manipulative types)

As such, Tarquin's badassery does not to me imply a narrative need for high or epic levels. In fact, it would be likely to weaken the narrative since the story of a mid-level adventurer, who abandoning his adventuring career attempts to seize destiny by its throat by cutting out a kingdom of his own, succeeds spectacularly in his conquests against people much of the same power level as himself, but fails to hold it and retreats in ignomy only to learn from the episode and return with a plan to hold through subterfuge what he failed through main force, is to me a stronger story than the one that follows a high-level adventurer doing the same with much less danger to his own life involved and more skillpoints and special abilities to his name (hence more resources to apply to the situation on hand).

To put it more simply, perhaps, a character of the Magnificent Bastard type often gets weaker in reader appeal the more personally powerful he gets unless the opposition he faces grows proportionally more powerful as well. His strength as a character comes from manipulating others, both those weaker and stronger than himself, as part of his grand designs while taking real risks. Reduce the risks and reduce the man.

So yes, being badass is evidence. It is clearly evidence of the opposite of what you took it as evidence for, but it is evidence...

....

Or perhaps not. Perhaps it is all in the assumptions. Thinking "the Author is a good storyteller, and I like the story, so the things that have not been clarified are probably the way I think they should be in a good story since we think alike" is a very common thing to do when reading a story, but it is ill suited to be touted as evidence for why things should be a certain way. :smallsmile:

tribble

2010-12-15, 11:21 PM

Which tells us only that he has a pretty good AC... for someone fighting a Bard who likely doesn't have much of a strength score.
:smallannoyed::smallmad::smallfurious:
What is the one thing, the ONE, SINGULAR, MECHANICAL THING, that we are explicitly told the Dashing Swordsman PrC does?

It allows the user to substitute his Charisma score for his strength. Therefore, all your conjecture on what the combat abilities of Elan and/or Tarquin are based on erroneous premises.

Zevox

2010-12-15, 11:28 PM

:smallannoyed::smallmad::smallfurious:
What is the one thing, the ONE, SINGULAR, MECHANICAL THING, that we are explicitly told the Dashing Swordsman PrC does?

It allows the user to substitute his Charisma score for his strength. Therefore, all your conjecture on what the combat abilities of Elan and/or Tarquin are based on erroneous premises.
Two corrections:

First, what we were told is that Dashing Swordsman lets him substitute charisma bonus for strength bonus to damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html), not attack.

Second, you'll note Tarquin's counter-punning during his fight with Elan. Remember what Elan said about that afterward: "You - you blocked my puns! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html)" Seems like that means Tarquin's counter-punning was neutralizing the effects of that Dashing Swordsman ability anyway, so even if it did add charisma to attack and not just damage, Elan would still be relying on his strength score for attack during that fight. Heck, the post I was quoting in the post you quoted even mentioned that, since I had just pointed that out to Droylt then.

Zevox

Deliverance

2010-12-15, 11:32 PM

:smallannoyed::smallmad::smallfurious:
What is the one thing, the ONE, SINGULAR, MECHANICAL THING, that we are explicitly told the Dashing Swordsman PrC does?

Something other than you think it does, apparently. :smallbiggrin:

It allows the user to substitute his Charisma score for his strength. Therefore, all your conjecture on what the combat abilities of Elan and/or Tarquin are based on erroneous premises.
No, it does not. The one thing we have been told explicitly is that dashing swordsman allows the user to substitute his charisma score for his strength for damage purposes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html) while wielding a rapier.

Damage purposes. Not to-hit.

Zevox is entirely right to focus on Elan's strength when considering whether Elan can hit Tarquin's AC. If he had been talking about how hard Elan could hit, the charisma bonus would be relevant, but he wasn't.

EDIT: Outposted. Drat.

Drolyt

2010-12-15, 11:38 PM

Fair enough. Let's say it is evidence. The question then arises, "what is it evidence of?"

Let me for the sake of argument immediately reverse your and show how one can use Rich's strong storytelling and Tarquin being badass as evidence of Tarquin being weaker rather than stronger than the OOTS.

(To me) It is more impressive narratively when antagonists, who are not personally more powerful than the protagonists but are good at using the resources they have at their disposal, manage to provide a real challenge for the protagonists to overcome than when the protagonists overcome antagonists who are personally powerful, since the latter often relies on the protagonists taking advantage of some weakness carefully inserted in their strengths to render them null and void when it matters.

And Tarquin is a Magnificent Bastard. For Magnificent Bastards, being badass isn't really about personal power levels but about how they use the power they have. (This actually goes for most characters in fiction, but it is especially pronounced for the manipulative types)

As such, Tarquin's badassery does not to me imply a narrative need for high or epic levels. In fact, it would be likely to weaken the narrative since the story of a mid-level adventurer, who abandoning his adventuring career attempts to seize destiny by its throat by cutting out a kingdom of his own, succeeds spectacularly in his conquests against people much of the same power level as himself, but fails to hold it and retreats in ignomy only to learn from the episode and return with a plan to hold through subterfuge what he failed through main force, is to me a stronger story than the one that follows a high-level adventurer doing the same with much less danger to his own life involved and more skillpoints and special abilities to his name (hence more resources to apply to the situation on hand).

To put it more simply, perhaps, a character of the Magnificent Bastard type often gets weaker in reader appeal the more personally powerful he gets unless the opposition he faces grows proportionally more powerful as well. His strength as a character comes from manipulating others, both those weaker and stronger than himself, as part of his grand designs while taking real risks. Reduce the risks and reduce the man.

So yes, being badass is evidence. It is clearly evidence of the opposite of what you took it as evidence for, but it is evidence...
A fair argument. You may be right.

....

Or perhaps not. Perhaps it is all in the assumptions. Thinking "the Author is a good storyteller, and I like the story, so the things that have not been clarified are probably the way I think they should be in a good story since we think alike" is a very common thing to do when reading a story, but it is ill suited to be touted as evidence for why things should be a certain way. :smallsmile:
Now now, I admit The Giant doesn't think exactly like I do. Nor do I claim to be a great storyteller like he is; I think I might be a pretty good one, but I am young and I don't have any published works to back up that claim, so I could be wrong. It is also true that I may be allowing my own preconceptions, or my desire for the direction of the story, to cloud my judgment. All that said, I don't remember using it as evidence. I did mention the authority equals asskicking trope, which The Giant has subverted at least once (twice if you count the OotS, since V seems to be the most powerful in the group while Roy is the leader) as well as the rule of drama, which suggests that if Tarquin is not epic then he should at least be a serious threat to the Order otherwise. As you have pointed out, his immense intellect and knack for strategy could serve that purpose even if he were weaker than the Order, but that would be very difficult to pull off effectively. Tarquin has been made to be a magnificent bastard, but the number of would be magnificent bastards that ultimately fail at being magnificent is probably greater than true magnificent bastards like Lionel Luther, Lex Luther, David Xanatos, The Master, etc.

KillItWithFire

2010-12-16, 04:07 PM

There are more ways to be a threat than just being dangerous in a one-on-one fight. From what we've seen of Tarquin, he's dangerous mostly because of his resources not his combat skills. Elan is mid-level, the whole order is mid-level. This means that even if we just talk about combat strength Tarquin can still be threat as a high level character as opposed to one that's epic. Also keep in min that Tarquin isn't alone, he's got a whole party with him likely the same level that he is. A party of high level (not nessicarily epic as we've seen no proof of that) PCs with all the resources an armies of 3 empires against a party of mid-level PCs? That is still quite a threat without going epic.

MReav

2010-12-18, 03:52 PM

I assume he's a fighter type because he fits in with the other class-types even less (I assume the 3.5 warlord counts as fighter-type). I assume he's not epic because of Malack actually. Malack had stated he hadn't entertain a cleric of equal standing in some time, which I assume puts his level on par with Durkon, give or take a level, and since lizardfolk are an ECL+3 race, and most adventuring parties are the same level, that would mean Tarquin would be about 3 levels higher than the party, and the party is what, 13-15th level?

And not epic does not equal weak.

Drolyt

2010-12-18, 04:20 PM

And not epic does not equal weak.
The "weak" part was in reference to claims that he was actually weaker than the Order. Admittedly he doesn't have to be epic to not be weak, but I still think epic is a strong possibility.

MReav

2010-12-18, 04:40 PM

The "weak" part was in reference to claims that he was actually weaker than the Order. Admittedly he doesn't have to be epic to not be weak, but I still think epic is a strong possibility.

I don't think he's weak, but he's not epic, and as a likely fighter type, he's probably boned when facing V or Durkon due to Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards and CODZilla respectively.

My money would be on him against Elan, Roy, Belkar, and Haley, unless Haley scores something to bypass his armor and a chance to get a bunch of sneak attacks right off the bat.

Drolyt

2010-12-18, 04:54 PM

I don't think he's weak, but he's not epic, and as a likely fighter type, he's probably boned when facing V or Durkon due to Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards and CODZilla respectively.

My money would be on him against Elan, Roy, Belkar, and Haley, unless Haley scores something to bypass his armor and a chance to get a bunch of sneak attacks right off the bat.
See, I doubt that he will be fighting the Order any time soon. If he doesn't become a contender for the gates, then I imagine Elan will come back and defeat him after the main quest. I could be wrong, and my thoughts on this are probably coloring my perception of Tarquin's abilities, so there you go.

MReav

2010-12-18, 11:31 PM

See, I doubt that he will be fighting the Order any time soon. If he doesn't become a contender for the gates, then I imagine Elan will come back and defeat him after the main quest. I could be wrong, and my thoughts on this are probably coloring my perception of Tarquin's abilities, so there you go.

I'm not implying that they're going to fight, I'm simply stating my opinion that Tarquin would likely not be able to take on Durkon or V due to them being primary spellcasters, but he would likely beat any other member of the Order (short of a cheese happy Haley) and implying that I don't think he's got too many levels on his theoretical opponents.

Drolyt

2010-12-18, 11:47 PM

I'm not implying that they're going to fight, I'm simply stating my opinion that Tarquin would likely not be able to take on Durkon or V due to them being primary spellcasters, but he would likely beat any other member of the Order (short of a cheese happy Haley) and implying that I don't think he's got too many levels on his theoretical opponents.
Okay, but even on that assumption I'm not sure. V and Durkon have some level of power yes, but they are both very poorly optimized: V is an Evoker and Durkon is a healbot. Assuming Tarqiun has a few levels on them he would probably win, especially since he seems to be far more intelligent than anyone in the order and well versed in combating a variety of opponents.

SPoD

2010-12-19, 12:15 AM

Zevox is entirely right to focus on Elan's strength when considering whether Elan can hit Tarquin's AC. If he had been talking about how hard Elan could hit, the charisma bonus would be relevant, but he wasn't.

Except that there is little reason for anyone to be using a rapier if they aren't taking Weapon Finesse, an idea that is implied by his fancy Zorro-style writing in stone. Which would make it Elan's Dexterity, not Strength, that mattered. And I think we can all agree that Elan's Dex is probably higher than his Strength.

So, Elan probably has a better chance to hit than some are giving him, even if I would agree that he's not seriously combat optimized, even with Dashing Swordsman.

Kish

2010-12-19, 12:54 AM

Assuming Tarqiun has a few levels on them he would probably win, especially since he seems to be far more intelligent than anyone in the order
Really, now. He's far more intelligent than Elan. In other words, he can fly well enough to get over a bar which is sunken into the floor.

Drolyt

2010-12-19, 01:07 AM

Really, now. He's far more intelligent than Elan. In other words, he can fly well enough to get over a bar which is sunken into the floor.
What do you mean? All accounts point to Tarquin being a genius, at least tactically and strategically. His plan for the Western Continent, his knowledge of obscure fighting techniques, everything points to him being far more intelligent, effective, and efficient at what he does than the Order (or Team Evil for that matter).

SPoD

2010-12-19, 01:14 AM

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree. Roy never even considered trying to come up with a list of spells his archenemy could cast until one was handed to him, while Tarquin deduces such information about Vaarsuvius, a recent acquaintance, from unrelated conversation. With regards to tactical or strategic thinking, Tarquin is miles ahead of anyone in the OOTS. Anyone in the strip, really, except maybe for Redcloak.

Being clearly smarter than Elan does not negate the possibility that he is smarter than other people, too.

Deliverance

2010-12-19, 08:41 AM

Except that there is little reason for anyone to be using a rapier if they aren't taking Weapon Finesse, an idea that is implied by his fancy Zorro-style writing in stone. Which would make it Elan's Dexterity, not Strength, that mattered. And I think we can all agree that Elan's Dex is probably higher than his Strength.

So, Elan probably has a better chance to hit than some are giving him, even if I would agree that he's not seriously combat optimized, even with Dashing Swordsman.
There is every possible reason for using a rapier as Elan even without Weapon Finesse! It has style! It is dramatic! It has dramatic potential in ways that a common sword just doesn't match. It also doesn't weigh as much (which admittedly is a consideration that is practically nonexistent in D&D's reality).

The rapier might not be the preferred weapon of anybody without Weapon Finesse amongst those who make choices based on efficiency or merely competency, but since when has Elan been in that group?

...We are talking about the person who invested skill points in playing a kazoo, in case his music was ever required, when he couldn't use his arms. Elan's choices are not for mortal man to fathom.

Like you I can see his ability to write his name in stone (:smallcool:) with a flurry of blows of his rapier early in the story as a an evidence of Weapon Finesse (possibly chosen for that specific reason), but that is contrasted with Elan showing a very low level of combat proficiency in the strips of that time, where the order was considerably lower level and inherent stat bonuses to-hit would have been (from a purely mechanical point of view) more dominant in comparison between party members than it was later considering how BAB develops by levels.

So I'd replace the probably in "Elan probably has Weapon Finesse" with a possibly.