[build advice] Psychic Rogue/Elocater

[SylvanPrincess]

Yet again, i'm here asking for build advice. i am so undecided as to what to be, please forgive me, once the game starts ill likely disappear for a long time....

so i was falling in love with the psychic rogue,http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b and decided to see what might fit with it prc-wise. now this wasnt an exhaustive search, there may be more options out there, but the prc i think fits super well is the elocater(xph p143).

with only losing 3 caster levels (still top powers for psyRogue), it offers lots of bennies, like super flanking, teleporting and hit and damage bonuses for hitting a target struck by a team mate. psyRogue 10 only gives 4d6 sneak attack, but your only likely to have 2d6 until elocater 10, which gives you accelerated action. using a full attack with accelerated action give you one extra attack with any weapon, at the highest bab, and with any modifiers appropriate for the situation. that means sneak attack damage again, and possibly your +6 opportunistic strike as well.

thoughts? too weak? it does get some sweet powers too, which i havent begun to think through for combos

[SylvanPrincess]

if i could somehow get more sneak attack into this it would be cool, but i feel its still decent

and here is the elocater
http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/elocater

[Ernir]

For a "general purpose" build, I'd stick with the Psychic Rogue. The Elocater has its niche uses, but you really should be building specifically around those if you want the class for some reason.

[true_shinken]

Psychic Rogue/Elocater is a plane-hopping ninja. It's awesome. Very, very awesome.

Extra sneak attack is good - if you really really want more sneak attack, you could go with Lurk instead of Psychic Rogue.

Really, PsyRogue/Elocater is solid enough. And just plain awesome.

[Draz74]

First of all, I recommend you link to this Elocator reference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/elocater.htm) rather than the one you linked. Better web site.

Otherwise ... I say go for it, and don't worry too much about the quantity of your sneak attack dice. You're a skill monkey, not a dedicated Damage-Per-Round machine, and that's fine, with the number of other cool tricks you get. Besides, adding more damage in many other ways is easy if that's what you end up needing.

[erikun]

PsyRogue/Elocater will be a lot better than something like Psion/Elocater.

The biggest issue I forsee is starting as an Elocater and becoming worse off at whatever your Rogue was doing. The PsyRogue is more than just powers, and uses both skills and sneak attack to be effective as well. The Elocater seems to support sneak attack well enough, but you don't want to end up taking Elocater and find that you can't progress the skills you've been good at up until then.

Beyond that, the Elocater looks fun and it does not appear to be a liability. Be careful with assuming that the 10th level ability will be used all the time, though, given that it's only useable for 5 rounds/day.

[Crow]

Something that may be useful for this build is the feat...that I can't remember the name of.

Basically it allows you to re-roll any 1's that you roll with your sneak attack damage dice. If you can't manage to squeeze any more sneak attack into the build, it provides a very nice boost.

Hopefully somebody will be along to give the actual name and source for that feat!

edit: Deadly Precision maybe?

[Da Beast]

Psy rogue going into elocator will lose sneak attack, take a hit to manifesting and lose out on skill access, all for the cost of three terrible feats. Unless your DM will let you ignore feat requirements or give the class a bit of a boost I'd skip it.

[Flickerdart]

Something that may be useful for this build is the feat...that I can't remember the name of.

Basically it allows you to re-roll any 1's that you roll with your sneak attack damage dice. If you can't manage to squeeze any more sneak attack into the build, it provides a very nice boost.

Hopefully somebody will be along to give the actual name and source for that feat!

edit: Deadly Precision maybe?
Craven is much better, because it gives a substantially larger net bonus that's multiplied on a critical hit.

[Crow]

Craven is much better, because it gives a substantially larger net bonus that's multiplied on a critical hit.

I'm not familiar with that one.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not familiar with that one.
Champions of Ruin. +character level to sneak attacks, -2 on saves VS fear.

[Crow]

Champions of Ruin. +character level to sneak attacks, -2 on saves VS fear.

Holy crap, that is a ridiculous feat.

[Flickerdart]

Why? It's pretty tame compared to some of the stuff out there, it has a drawback, it scales with level instead of immediately giving you its power...if anything, it's what other feats should aspire to be.

[SylvanPrincess]

Psy rogue going into elocator will lose sneak attack, take a hit to manifesting and lose out on skill access, all for the cost of three terrible feats. Unless your DM will let you ignore feat requirements or give the class a bit of a boost I'd skip it.

its that bad? you make it seem horrible lol :( i wouldnt say the build is focused on sneak attack as much as it is attacking sneakily :D

[bondpirate]

I'd go Rogue8/Ardent2/Elocator10 and focus on bow uses. Rogue for umd and other class skills. Ardent for 3 mantles. Elocater for mobility (though I agree with removing the feat taxes). Use wand of Hunter's Mercy on a bows stacked with crit bonuses for different types of encounters and can get 1d8 from the bow +4d6 from precision +damage or effects from 'on critical hit' abilities. Sure it's once a round, but teleporting behind a caster and deafening, slowing and taking 50%+ of their health away is pretty sweet.

Remember the skill monkey motto. "I am a skill monkey. My job is to do what others can't. It is to lie, cheat and steal my way through life. I am not a Fighter. I am not a damage factory. It is not my job to produce it. I am not a Healer. I have better uses for diamonds than raising the dead. Unless it is my own. Nor am I a Wizard. There are easier ways to get what I want without reshaping reality. My payment is far richer than high damage. It is not payed with good intentions. It is not found in a book, unless it literally "is" in a book. It is payed with diamonds, and other shiny trinkets. Mmmn, shiny... where was I, oh yeah, I am a skill monkey."

Sniff, truer words were never been spoken since. Grand Master Shien really new his words well back at the Rogue's Guild.

Go pure psychic rogue for more effectiveness long run. Even if it is more fun to have Scorn Earth as an Elocater. Unless your in a super optimized party, go Elocater and have fun.

[Flickerdart]

The problem with that arrangement is that you get no top-level powers at all. Since you lose 3 levels in Elocater, you need at least 10 more manifester levels. Rogue 4/Ardent 6/Elocater 10 with Practiced Manifester gets you up to ML17, meaning 9th level powers.

[bondpirate]

I should have expanded on my thought process.

Going PsyRogue10/Elocater10 is far inferior to PsyRogue20 because the abilities lost by far do not outweigh what's gained. Looking outside the manifesting levels, the PsyRogue 'special abilities' and more sneak attack are superior on paper. When you factor in manifesting, then you can not only mimic, but replicate most of the abilities otherwise given up from the opportunity costs. SylvanPrincess, based on what she wants from the combo, will probably be happy going pure since the class is rather well balanced.

Going Rogue/Ardent/Elocater does something different in it's approach to the skill monkey. Standard Rogue gives more skill points and umd. Ardent gives mantles. Mantles, even without manifesting levels, are awesome and give plenty of defence. The mantle's manifesting powers are pretty limited and more a splash of awesome instead of diving in head first to manifesting. Elocater is to support mobility mostly and alternate skills, plus flavor. Elocater wins the flavor war hands down between the two. The problem though is you need to be far more optimized in terms of equipment to have the same level of effectiveness.

Also, the Ardent's 9th level abilities for the most useful mantles are not the best, so it doesn't really require aiming to gain them. So more Ardent isn't really required.

Thinking back on it, the combo above is mad and uses wis instead of int like the psyrogue. While I personally don't care about getting every spell possible and having the highest DCs. Having fun is best though, so even if it isn't the most optimized setup. If you have an idea for a character. Go for it.

Or go Lurk10/Elocater10 that's pretty good to.

[Flickerdart]

Right, yeah, but ignoring the Ardent's powers is wasting the one thing that makes the class great. You at least want enough levels to get Schism ad use it reliably so you can fire off powers and fight at the same time.

[Draz74]

Something that may be useful for this build is the feat...that I can't remember the name of.

Basically it allows you to re-roll any 1's that you roll with your sneak attack damage dice. If you can't manage to squeeze any more sneak attack into the build, it provides a very nice boost.

Hopefully somebody will be along to give the actual name and source for that feat!

edit: Deadly Precision maybe?

For goodness' sake, no. Deadly Precision is a terrible, awful feat. If you do the math, it adds an average of +0.417 damage per sneak attack die.

[Crow]

For goodness' sake, no. Deadly Precision is a terrible, awful feat. If you do the math, it adds an average of +0.417 damage per sneak attack die.

Gimme a break, I didn't know about the Craven feat, which will now be my feat of choice. :) Besides, +.4 isn't per die isn't that bad for a TWF rogue.

[true_shinken]

Gimme a break, I didn't know about the Craven feat, which will now be my feat of choice. :) Besides, +.4 isn't per die isn't that bad for a TWF rogue.

Do note PsyRogues still have bad Will saves. This and a -2 against fear effects means you could spend most of the time in combat crouched in a corner mumbling incomprehensible words if you are against a savvy target.

[Draz74]

Gimme a break, I didn't know about the Craven feat, which will now be my feat of choice. :)
Doesn't matter. :smallsmile: Even if Craven didn't exist, I would never spend a feat on Deadly Precision. There are way too many better feats out there, sneak-attack-enhancing or otherwise.

(E.g.: Martial Stance (island of blades); Shadow Blade; Telling Blow; Martial Stance (assassin's stance); Staggering Strike ...)


Besides, +.4 isn't per die isn't that bad for a TWF rogue.

Eh, disagree. You have to have +5d6 sneak attack before Deadly Precision becomes as good as Weapon Specialization. And hopefully you know that feat is underpowered (especially by Level 9, when you might have +5d6 sneak).

[Psyren]

Do note PsyRogues still have bad Will saves. This and a -2 against fear effects means you could spend most of the time in combat crouched in a corner mumbling incomprehensible words if you are against a savvy target.

Prevalence of fear effects is campaign-dependent, and a normal rogue would be pretty screwed there too. At least the PsyRogue can pick up Empty Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/emptyMind.htm) if she feels they will be a problem.

[Ernir]

Don't want to make it look like you're being ganged up on, Crow, but the reason I wouldn't ever take the Deadly Precision feat is that there is a magic item that does the same trick. Bracers of Murder, from Drow of the Underdark. Allows you to reroll ones on SA dice, increases the save DCs of Death Attacks if you have the ability, and provides an attack and damage bonus against flat-footed opponents. All for 8000 GP.

[true_shinken]

Doesn't matter. :smallsmile: Even if Craven didn't exist, I would never spend a feat on Deadly Precision. There are way too many better feats out there, sneak-attack-enhancing or otherwise.
Depends on the build, really. +0.4 per die is pretty solid in an Master Spellthief Unseen Seer build, dropping CL 46 Hunter Eyes around. That's almost as many extra damage as Craven and you can be immune to fear, no problems.
But yeah, otherwise it's a pretty crappy feat.

[classy one]

Elocator may not be the most optimized PrC but I certain think it is the most fun. Psyrogue is INT based so you still should have no problem with skill ranks, able learner can make all skills class skills but is for humans only.

Some feats you'll want
Craven: already mentioned and the best of the bunch. -2 on will save against fear isn't too bad since you have good will saves
Deadly precision: reroll any 1's on sneak attack damage.
Sacred strike: roll d8s instead of d6's
Hidden talent: astral contruct. You want a flanker and extra actions during combat right? AC so you can flank without cooperation from you party. Hidden talent let's you get it at level 1 too as opposed to EK.

[Psyren]

Do note that for Hidden Talent you will need Cha 11 anyway, even though you'll use your Int score to manifest whichever power you'll learn. Not that a Psyrogue would dump Cha anyway; it's just something to keep in mind if your stat roll/point buy is low.

Having said that, Astral Construct is a great power in general, and even better for a Psyrogue/Elocater so you can trigger both SA and OS.

[true_shinken]

Prevalence of fear effects is campaign-dependent, and a normal rogue would be pretty screwed there too. At least the PsyRogue can pick up Empty Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/emptyMind.htm) if she feels they will be a problem.
Oh, I didn't mean that a PsyRogue was more vulnerable to it than a Rogue, absolutely. I said still, as in, a Psychic Rogue does not have a Will save better than a Rogue's.
Again, I have to point out - using a feat that gives you a vulnerability is like asking 'pretty please, oh sir DM, please exploit this vulnerability every once in a while so that that damage bonus is not free'. But that's just my view as a DM, others of course might disagree. YMMV.

[true_shinken]

Craven: already mentioned and the best of the bunch. -2 on will save against fear isn't too bad since you have good will saves

Except you don't get good will saves from PsyRogue.

[Psyren]

Oh, I didn't mean that a PsyRogue was more vulnerable to it than a Rogue, absolutely. I said still, as in, a Psychic Rogue does not have a Will save better than a Rogue's.
Again, I have to point out - using a feat that gives you a vulnerability is like asking 'pretty please, oh sir DM, please exploit this vulnerability every once in a while so that that damage bonus is not free'. But that's just my view as a DM, others of course might disagree. YMMV.

Ah, but that can be a good thing :smallsmile: Having an idea of what your DM is sending your way lets you prepare for it. It's like a free Contact Other Plane!

[Draz74]

Indeed -- just take Martial Study (Moment of Perfect Mind)! :smallwink:

Actually, wait, on second thought, don't even bother with the feat ... just buy the Ring.

[true_shinken]

Indeed -- just take Martial Study (Moment of Perfect Mind)! :smallwink:

Actually, wait, on second thought, don't even bother with the feat ... just buy the Ring.

Did someone order the cheese? I have a nice pile of cheddar here. :smallbiggrin:
Nah, just kidding. It's pretty acceptable. It even fits the 'cautious' feel the Craven feat evokes.

[classy one]

Except you don't get good will saves from PsyRogue.

Pretty sure Elocator does.

[SylvanPrincess]

Pretty sure Elocator does.
{table=head]Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save
+0|+2|+2
[/table]

[true_shinken]

Pretty sure Elocator does.

Just because you're right doesn't mean I'm wrong! BWAHAHAHAHA! Wait, I'm not making any sense, am I...?

[SylvanPrincess]

Just because you're right doesn't mean I'm wrong! BWAHAHAHAHA! Wait, I'm not making any sense, am I...?

i once thought i was wrong, but i was mistaken.

:smallbiggrin:

[classy one]

{table=head]Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save
+0|+2|+2
[/table]

Looks like someone owes me an apology /smug

I personally played a psywar/rogue/Elocator and had a blast but that was before I knew of psychrogue. That said, I think human race and a 2 level dip into fighter or psywar will be needed to get all the feat in.
I have a different concept of what optimizing means. Elocator for me is about mobility and hit and run tactics, not dealing 238d6 of damage in one round. Elocator is great fun because it provides you all the tools to be very mobile and fast, so you can devote most of your feats to things like able learner, craven, and maybe speed of thought.
I personally liked my Elocator the best and I think you will too.

[true_shinken]

Looks like someone owes me an apology /smug
but but I already did that


Elocator for me is about mobility and hit and run tactics, not dealing 238d6 of damage in one round.
This. So much this.
It might not be the strongest choice power-wise, but playing cat and mouse with your big heavy hitters is just so fun.

[classy one]

but but I already did that

I accept!!!!


This. So much this.
It might not be the strongest choice power-wise, but playing cat and mouse with your big heavy hitters is just so fun.
Capricious step with a reach weapon is just too fun. Add stand still and nothing hits you. Ever.

How about sidestep charge with improved trip? Trip with AoO provided by sidestep charge, land them on the floor, run away. Not optimal but oh so funny against BSF.

[SylvanPrincess]

placed in homebrew.

im not trying to create a whole new class, merely adapt something already there.

[true_shinken]

What do you think of this adaptation of the psyRogue- the Psychic Ninja.
You should probably post this in the homebrew forum.

[SylvanPrincess]

You should probably post this in the homebrew forum.

but its directly related to the topic *sniff* want to compare it to the psyrogue as an entry for elocater, or even if its doable alone. ill move it though if you want. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

What do you think of this adaptation of the psyRogue- the Psychic Ninja.

I was working on a "Psychic Ninja," though that's not the name I was going to use. Based on my own alpha build, here are my thoughts about this one:

1) I find ki and psionics to be redundant (just like WotC did while designing 4e.) You also double the player's bookkeeping by tracking both a PP reserve and ki pool. I would simply fluff their psionics as ki.

2) A Psionic Ninja should have the Lurk's psi progression - i.e. 6th level powers, 20 PK and 127 PP. (A ninja should be, if anything, more of a caster than a Psywar is, or at least equal.) You can balance it by cutting the sneak attack progression in half, but having the other half be psionic sneak attack.

3) Thanks to the powers, there's no real need for an AC bonus - removing this will bring it in line with the Psywar, who gets MWP, Heavy Armor and shield proficiency and bonus feats as his compensation for not having Trapfinding and the other Psyrogue goodies.

4) Rather than the various ki abilities, a tweaked list of Lurk augments can represent "jutsus" that the ninja can employ. Like Lurk augments, these jutsus would be primarly (Ex) with a couple of (Su) abilities included.

5) Their powers should of course come from both the Psyrogue and Lurk lists, along with some of the goodies from later sources e.g. Secrets of Sarlona.

6) Give it evasion much sooner - even Lurks get it earlier than 12 (i.e. 9) but Psyrogues get it at 2.

EDIT: And yes, this should be in homebrew.

[SylvanPrincess]

I was working on a "Psychic Ninja," though that's not the name I was going to use. Based on my own alpha build, here are my thoughts about this one:

1) I find ki and psionics to be redundant (just like WotC did while designing 4e.) You also double the player's bookkeeping by tracking both a PP reserve and ki pool. I would simply fluff their psionics as ki.

2) A Psionic Ninja should have the Lurk's psi progression - i.e. 6th level powers, 20 PK and 127 PP. (A ninja should be, if anything, more of a caster than a Psywar is, or at least equal.) You can balance it by cutting the sneak attack progression in half, but having the other half be psionic sneak attack.

3) Thanks to the powers, there's no real need for an AC bonus - removing this will bring it in line with the Psywar, who gets MWP, Heavy Armor and shield proficiency and bonus feats as his compensation for not having Trapfinding and the other Psyrogue goodies.

4) Rather than the various ki abilities, a tweaked list of Lurk augments can represent "jutsus" that the ninja can employ. Like Lurk augments, these jutsus would be primarly (Ex) with a couple of (Su) abilities included.

5) Their powers should of course come from both the Psyrogue and Lurk lists, along with some of the goodies from later sources e.g. Secrets of Sarlona.

6) Give it evasion much sooner - even Lurks get it earlier than 12 (i.e. 9) but Psyrogues get it at 2.

EDIT: And yes, this should be in homebrew.

moved it to homebrew. thing is tho, im not trying to create a whole new class like youre suggesting, merely cut and paste one class into an existing class. also, left the abilities where they're granted on the ninja class in CA. i like your ideas though :) the only thing i will change is making ki powers cost pp