What book is shivering touch in?

[stabbitty death]

:smallconfused: what it says on the tin. what book is shivering touch in?:smallconfused:

[Greenish]

Frostburn, or "It's Cold Outside".

[Grelna the Blue]

Frostburn, yes.

One thing about that spell, though, that I think bears mention.

When people call it the dragonkiller (because 3d6 Dex damage vs big scaly things with an average Dex of 10 would usually seem like a one-shot winner) they are ignoring the fact that dragons are immune to paralysis. Page 304 of the PHB states in the ability damage and ability drain text blocks that a creature that has its Dex reduced to 0 is paralyzed. Hence, dragons cannot be reduced to 0 Dexterity. Of course, most creatures aren't immune to paralysis (or to cold, which would also protect) so it still IS an utterly broken spell, absurdly overpowered for its level.

[Gorgondantess]

Frostburn, yes.

One thing about that spell, though, that I think bears mention.

When people call it the dragonkiller (because 3d6 Dex damage vs big scaly things with an average Dex of 10 would usually seem like a one-shot winner) they are ignoring the fact that dragons are immune to paralysis. Page 304 of the PHB states in the ability damage and ability drain text blocks that a creature that has its Dex reduced to 0 is paralyzed. Hence, dragons cannot be reduced to 0 Dexterity. Of course, most creatures aren't immune to paralysis (or to cold, which would also protect) so it still IS an utterly broken spell, absurdly overpowered for its level.

Yes, dragons can be reduced to 0 dexterity. They aren't immune to that. They just aren't paralyzed by it.

[Grelna the Blue]

Yes, dragons can be reduced to 0 dexterity. They aren't immune to that. They just aren't paralyzed by it.

I could see that. Regardless, they'd be impaired (well, aside from those of them with the cold subtype), but by no means made helpless by this spell, which could be a nasty surprise for anyone who didn't know that dragons aren't subject to such easy takedowns.

[olentu]

I could see that. Regardless, they'd be impaired (well, aside from those of them with the cold subtype), but by no means made helpless by this spell, which could be a nasty surprise for anyone who didn't know that dragons aren't subject to such easy takedowns.

The thing is that as an entirely separate effect of having zero dex


Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.

[hamishspence]

Is "paralysed" a specific rules thing, whereas "helpless" is something any being, (including a sleeping being) can have?

If so, then it can still be "helpless" even if not "paralysed".

That said, the SRD does phrase Dex 0 as "paralysed" rather than specifically "helpless"

The text for helpless says:

Helpless
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.

[ericgrau]

Uh oh... try googling "site:www.giantitp.com shivering touch" for this debate already hashed out with both sides for your reading enjoyment. Then decide for yourself, because there never was a clear answer either way. Basically it comes down to one rule saying "paralyzed" and another rule in a different section "can't move" (b/c no dex is the inability to move) and whether or not you consider the "can't move" to be another way of saying "paralyzed" or vis versa.

But explaining away an OP spell is the needlessly complicated way to handle it. As are cold war escalations of nukes/ultimate defenses. Just fix or disallow the spell and problem solved. Make it an ability penalty that can't reduce an ability score below 1, and as a clarification - more interpretation than new rule - do so even if another effect further reduces dex (entangled, fatigued, etc.). That's how other ability hurting spells were fixed in the past.

[olentu]

Er yeah my rules quote is straight from the srd as well so you know explicitly helpless.

[pinwiz]

Er yeah my rules quote is straight from the srd as well so you know explicitly helpless.

When this issue was debated in the past, people cited several different apparently conflicting sources from the SRD, so while your quote is correct, others are conflicting in some peoples' interpretation.

Read up on the past threads on this issue like a previous poster suggested and you will see what i mean.

[Mikeavelli]

The "Paralyzed" quote (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm) also straight from the SRD under Ability damage and Ability drain.

But yeah, it's an overpowered spell and one of the very few I've outright banned in my games.

[Angry Bob]

What's the duration in the spell description for? The time the damage lasts? It gives you a touch attack for this many rounds?

[olentu]

When this issue was debated in the past, people cited several different apparently conflicting sources from the SRD, so while your quote is correct, others are conflicting in some peoples' interpretation.

Read up on the past threads on this issue like a previous poster suggested and you will see what i mean.

I don't see what the problem is neither of the sources say the other is incorrect. One says paralyzed so they are paralyzed and one says helpless so they are helpless. No problem at all.

[Angry Bob]

What's the duration in the spell description for? The time the damage lasts? It gives you a touch attack for this many rounds? I just feel like it's a waste of time to make a new thread just for that.

[ShriekingDrake]

What book is it from? It is from the Book of Fine D&D Cheeses.

[Incanur]

I Hate Dragons, page 187.

[pinwiz]

I don't see what the problem is neither of the sources say the other is incorrect. One says paralyzed so they are paralyzed and one says helpless so they are helpless. No problem at all.

I agree with you, but the problem comes with creatures immune to paralysis. Which description do you take, the one that causes paralysis or the one that says helpless?

I'm not an expert on the subject, I was just pointing out that some people have an issue with the two sources.

[olentu]

I agree with you, but the problem comes with creatures immune to paralysis. Which description do you take, the one that causes paralysis or the one that says helpless?

I'm not an expert on the subject, I was just pointing out that some people have an issue with the two sources.

You take both because both are applied. Immunity to one condition does not give immunity to the other.

[Grelna the Blue]

What's the duration in the spell description for? The time the damage lasts? It gives you a touch attack for this many rounds? I just feel like it's a waste of time to make a new thread just for that.

As written, the touch attack lasts for 1 round/level and it does not end at its first successful use. The ability damage lasts until healed normally through time and/or Restoration.

Seriously, though, not a good spell. It breaks the game in a way that should require a few feats and maybe a PrC in conjunction to accomplish.

[Tael]

Ah yes, now I remember my my DM only uses White or Silver dragons.

[TurtleKing]

One thing dragons do have going for them is Spell Resistance. So to use Shivering Touch you have to overcome their Spell Resistance first. So most dragons if hit by this spell would have trouble against it, but if the dragons know about this they can shore up their defenses against such a spell. The smart thing for any creature is to see where their weaknesses are and compensate, reduce the weakness, or even turn that weakness into a strength.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

This is partly why Scintillating Scales (SpC 181) is a must-have in every dragon's repertoire. There are ways to get around resistance/immunity, high touch AC, and high SR quite quickly, but at that point you're a Mailman who deals with dex damage instead of HP damage.

[true_shinken]

As written, the touch attack lasts for 1 round/level and it does not end at its first successful use. The ability damage lasts until healed normally through time and/or Restoration.
It does not end!?!?!?!?!
Man! That's huge! Can't believe I missed that! Maybe I really will have to ban this spell.