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jokejoking
2010-12-11, 05:35 PM
I don't know the technicals but is there an online guide that starts at the very beginning? Thanks.

Siosilvar
2010-12-11, 05:43 PM
The d20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) has most of the rules for 3.5 edition D&D.

Many of the more important rules (experience, treasure tables and wealth by level) are left out, but it's a decent player's guide to the game.

Urpriest
2010-12-11, 05:47 PM
The d20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) has most of the rules for 3.5 edition D&D.

Many of the more important rules (experience, treasure tables and wealth by level) are left out, but it's a decent player's guide to the game.

Doesn't it cut out most of the explanationy-bits though? I had the impression it doesn't have, for example, the steps of character creation.

OP: Which edition? The comic is based on edition 3.5, but the one currently being published is edition 4. Edition 3.5 is very popular on this forum, but edition 4 is often regarded as easier to learn.

Godskook
2010-12-11, 05:48 PM
I don't know the technicals but is there an online guide that starts at the very beginning? Thanks.

I learned a *lot* about the game just by researching the SRD in conjunction with the comic.

Comet
2010-12-11, 05:49 PM
The d20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) has most of the rules for 3.5 edition D&D.

Many of the more important rules (experience, treasure tables and wealth by level) are left out, but it's a decent player's guide to the game.

It's a really dry read, though.

I'd personally recommend simply picking up the Player's Handbook from a nearby gaming store and reading it through. That should explain what the game is about well enough and won't set you back too much money-wise.

The rules can be found online, in the SRD that Siosilvar linked above, but you probably won't find reading that very exciting as it's got nothing but rules and numbers in it. The physical books are the best way to get into the game, I think.

Callista
2010-12-11, 05:59 PM
You can find the PHB in many libraries; you'll usually have to do an inter-library loan, but it can be found. Also, you can find it in used bookstores. (You'll want a hard copy of the PHB; PDFs will do for other books, but a laptop at the gaming table is distracting, and the PHB is the reference you'll be using most. If it comes down to it, of course you can print out the SRD, but the book is sturdier and easier to handle than a binder full of paper.)

Go ahead and read through it; get the gist of the mechanics. It's easier if you start at low levels because the characters will have a lower number of abilities to worry about.

Godskook
2010-12-11, 06:02 PM
but a laptop at the gaming table is distracting

As a man incredibly fond of my laptop, and only having .pdfs, I can say that I don't get too distracted by the laptop at the gaming table. My players do, *a little*, but as much myself.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-11, 06:02 PM
I don't know the technicals but is there an online guide that starts at the very beginning? Thanks.

It's not exactly an online guide, but I would recommend searching for a Meetup Group (http://www.meetup.com/) in your area dedicated to rpgs, and see if they have a 3.5 game running (I presume, since you've been inspired by the comic, you'd like to play the edition it is based on). I believe it was the 2e AD&D Player's Handbook that says that the easiest way to learn D&D is by playing.

The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) is a great resource because it contains almost everything necessary to play 3.5, especially for players. That way you don't need to shell out on books right away, at least for most things.

Zeofar
2010-12-11, 07:01 PM
I'd also recommend just reading the Player's Handbook through, or the SRD if you can't get a hold of it. Just so you know, though, the comic is essentially based on 3.5 rules, so you're going to be seeing something very different if you try 4e instead.

Aron Times
2010-12-11, 07:05 PM
Note that 3.5 as depicted in OotS is quite different from actual 3.5 play. An actual 3.5 Xykon, being the highest-level character in the world and a lich on top of that, can easily take over the world by himself. Spellcasters are just that overpowered in 3.5.

Prime32
2010-12-11, 07:11 PM
Note that 3.5 as depicted in OotS is quite different from actual 3.5 play. An actual 3.5 Xykon, being the highest-level character in the world and a lich on top of that, can easily take over the world by himself. Spellcasters are just that overpowered in 3.5.Correction: intelligent spellcasters are overpowered. Most OotS characters have made horrible build choices.

I mean, Xykon considers meteor swarm his best combat spell. It can't kill a man half his level even when fired directly into his chest.

Starbuck_II
2010-12-11, 08:57 PM
Correction: intelligent spellcasters are overpowered. Most OotS characters have made horrible build choices.

I mean, Xykon considers meteor swarm his best combat spell. It can't kill a man half his level even when fired directly into his chest.

Except Belkar he didn't take a bad build.
He put everything in Str/Dex/Con meaning low points for Wis/Cha, but not that a bad for melee combatant.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-11, 09:09 PM
And Elan is fairly optimized, taking Dashing Swordsman to run as much as he can off of his 18 Charisma and all.

Psyren
2010-12-11, 09:13 PM
I learned about d&d from neverwinter nights, baldur's gate etc. That's the best way to learn at your own pace imo

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-11, 09:15 PM
Except Belkar he didn't take a bad build.
He put everything in Str/Dex/Con meaning low points for Wis/Cha, but not that a bad for melee combatant.

Belkar is a halfling in a melee combat class, took a very poor animal companion, and is ignoring his spells entirely due to low wisdom. His build choices are terrible.

OP, you're going to see a lot of nonsense on this forum about what's overpowered and how to do things a certain way, but you should know that most of it is pretty unusual compared to actual play. We indulge in a lot of crazy stuff and thought exercises due to a having a lot of experience with the game. I suggest picking up a PHB, finding a group, and playing the game pretty straight at first.

Of course, if you have any questions about the game or its rules, the playground will be happy to help you.

Yora
2010-12-12, 07:57 AM
I agree with everyone else. You probably should get a copy of the Players Handbook. The Dungeon Masters Guide and the Monster Manual don't have any unseful information that is not in the SRD.

J.Gellert
2010-12-12, 08:09 AM
I learned about d&d from neverwinter nights, baldur's gate etc. That's the best way to learn at your own pace imo

This, and it doesn't require other players, so you don't have to go looking for a group if you aren't comfortable enough yet.

Strawberries
2010-12-12, 08:21 AM
Well, and there is also the play by post section (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=51) of this very forum, if you'd like to start playing but can't/aren't confortable in finding a face-to-face group.

I learned just with the SRD and asking there for newbie-friendly games. The people there have been amazing.

Btw, my pm box is open should you have questions. :smallsmile:

Serpentine
2010-12-12, 08:28 AM
The d20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) has most of the rules for 3.5 edition D&D.

Many of the more important rules (experience, treasure tables and wealth by level) are left out, but it's a decent player's guide to the game.Huh? No treasure tables? Then what's this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/treasure.htm#tableTreasureValuesperEncounter) and these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemDescriptions)? Do you mean something else?

I find just making a character sheet and reading up the information around each part to be quite helpful.

yldenfrei
2010-12-12, 08:34 AM
Same situation with me. OotS made me want to play PnP. I've been reading the d20srd site on and off for years.

There is, however, the matter of my acquaintance with Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2. And by acquaintance I mean I've downloaded and finished more than 20 custom modules for NWN2, also delving deep into the Kaedrin's PrC Pack custom content.

So, dear sirs and madams, what's the damage? How hard will it be for me to shift to PnP? Will I ever be able to make my very first Character Sheet? And will it avoid dying ignominiously on its first adventure? :smalleek:

KillItWithFire
2010-12-12, 08:39 AM
Frankly it's not that hard. I've never played NWN but I can't imagine it would do anything but help. Of course you all read the comic and I myself have had my own understanding of the game increased quite a bit by reading it and I was already familiar with the rules before hand. v4 is easier to learn but personally I don't recomend it as it feels to combat orientied. If that's your style hey, go for it. 3.5 though is my personal fav so my suggestion would be to pick up the 3 source books (player's handbook, DM guide, Monster manuel) find a nice group and someone who would make a nice DM and maybe start off with a ready-made adventure.

Dr.Epic
2010-12-12, 08:43 AM
The way I learned is that someone taught me the basic rules of combat and told be a d20 is the die you use for pretty much everything except HP and damage. Aside from that, I picked up everything else by playing. My advice, just try and find a local gaming group that will have you. There's also the recruiting section for games on these forums.

raitalin
2010-12-12, 10:49 AM
As far as learning with computer games Temple of Elemental Evil is far and away the truest adaptation of 3.5 rules to computer.

Kurald Galain
2010-12-12, 10:56 AM
Note that 3.5 as depicted in OotS is quite different from actual 3.5 play. An actual 3.5 Xykon, being the highest-level character in the world and a lich on top of that, can easily take over the world by himself. Spellcasters are just that overpowered in 3.5.

I would say that 3.5 as depicted in OOTS is pretty close to actual 3.5 play, and that theoretical optimization as discussed on these forums is the only place where the highest-level lich automatically takes over the world.

Lateral
2010-12-12, 11:09 AM
Meh, even in realistic play, an epic caster needs absolutely no optimization to take over the world. PAO into an exact visual (but not mental) replica of an emperor, assassinate the emperor in his sleep and dispose of the body, take his place, win. It doesn't happen in campaigns because nobody does, but it's easily done with three spells (PAO, teleport, any SoD). At epic levels, you have epic spellcasting. Seriously, there's nothing you can't do easily with epic spellcasting.

@V: Yeah, Durkon has really surpassed gimping. V, though, kind of moved from totally un-op to decently buff-botly. (S)he's an evoker who banned Conjuration, though, so you can't get much. (S)he'd probably get a lot more mileage out of Shadow Conjuration and Polymorph, though.

Urpriest
2010-12-12, 11:13 AM
I would say that 3.5 as depicted in OOTS is pretty close to actual 3.5 play, and that theoretical optimization as discussed on these forums is the only place where the highest-level lich automatically takes over the world.

Eh, the characters (Vaarsuvius and Durkon at least) are aware of the Tier system. They're getting closer to forumite playstyle.

Kurald Galain
2010-12-12, 11:27 AM
Eh, the characters (Vaarsuvius and Durkon at least) are aware of the Tier system. They're getting closer to forumite playstyle.

"Forumite playstyle" includes frequent requests to play e.g. monks and blaster wizards. Don't assume that the average player optimizes much.

Greenish
2010-12-12, 11:27 AM
I mean, Xykon considers meteor swarm his best combat spell. It can't kill a man half his level even when fired directly into his chest.I think Xykon considers Meteor Swarm his funniest combat spell. He's not above actually trying when the situation warrants it, there just aren't that many situations that would.

That said, Belkar's combat prowess seems surprising. Ranger/barb TWF with two light weapons and a small race?

Fri
2010-12-12, 11:30 AM
I learned Dnd from icewind dale 2 (3.0 though, but it's really close enough) then neverwinter night.

Just make sure to turn on the dice roll caption or whatever it's called.

Godskook
2010-12-12, 11:33 AM
Huh? No treasure tables? Then what's this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/treasure.htm#tableTreasureValuesperEncounter) and these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemDescriptions)? Do you mean something else?

I find just making a character sheet and reading up the information around each part to be quite helpful.

These tables:
wealth by level
experience by level

When I started doing play by posts, I had no idea on either of these, and had to look them up. Fortunately, google has WBL, and experience by level is easier to calculate.

Urpriest
2010-12-12, 11:35 AM
"Forumite playstyle" includes frequent requests to play e.g. monks and blaster wizards. Don't assume that the average player optimizes much.

I'm not. The average player also wouldn't use the phrase "Tier envy".

Kurald Galain
2010-12-12, 11:38 AM
I'm not. The average player also wouldn't use the phrase "Tier envy".

And neither would the average OOTS strip. That this is a one-panel joke rather than a common occurence pretty much contradicts your point.

Psyren
2010-12-12, 12:11 PM
Same situation with me. OotS made me want to play PnP. I've been reading the d20srd site on and off for years.

There is, however, the matter of my acquaintance with Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2. And by acquaintance I mean I've downloaded and finished more than 20 custom modules for NWN2, also delving deep into the Kaedrin's PrC Pack custom content.

So, dear sirs and madams, what's the damage? How hard will it be for me to shift to PnP? Will I ever be able to make my very first Character Sheet? And will it avoid dying ignominiously on its first adventure? :smalleek:

Not difficult at all. My chosen focus of study (psionics) isn't even featured in any of the CRPGs, but it didn't take me long to pick up on it, or to get to the point that I can give advice to others. It's more about wanting to learn than anything else.

NWN teaches you a lot of the basics:
- Attack bonuses (both base and other)
- Special attacks (Power Attack, Knockdown, Combat Expertise etc.)
- Types of attack (Regular, Touch, Ranged, Ranged Touch) and iteratives
- AC bonuses (types, sources, stacking rules etc.)
- Vancian and spontaneous casting
- DCs and skill checks (both opposed and flat)
- HP, critical hits, critical misses
- Weight and encumbrance
- Speed and Time; the turns/rounds/minutes/hours system
- Free/Immediate/Swift/Move/Standard/Full-round actions

and so on.
The pitfalls you have to watch for are the differences. It took me a while to grasp the differences between "Lore" and the various Knowledge skills, for instance, or why the "Discipline" and "Parry" skills weren't in PnP... and grappling isn't present in NWN at all so you'll still have to wrap your head around those rules. (AoOs, at least, are.)

Mongoose87
2010-12-12, 01:46 PM
I think Xykon considers Meteor Swarm his funniest combat spell. He's not above actually trying when the situation warrants it, there just aren't that many situations that would.

That said, Belkar's combat prowess seems surprising. Ranger/barb TWF with two light weapons and a small race?

He has the Shadow Blade feat.

Fri
2010-12-12, 02:19 PM
And the topic starter won't understand 75% of what's talked in this topic.

Anyway, I remember another game. Temple of Elemental Evil game crpg. get all of the official and unoffical patch, play in easy and/or get some walkthrough, turn on the dice caption, there, that should self-teach you dnd well. Don't play it unpatched, because it's horribly buggy

Fitz10019
2010-12-12, 02:49 PM
I came to PnP by way of Baldur's Gate and NWN. They can do a lot to familiarize you with most of the rules and terminology.

Note this, though: remember how difficult it was to transition from Baldur's Gate, where you controlled the whole party, to NWN where you had one cohort and he/she didn't follow commands very well? Multiply that by 1000, and you come close to what it's like to play with other real people (who won't follow your orders either). Play NWN online if you haven't already. Learning rules from Baldur's Gate is fine, but it can create a false baseline if you think you decide the actions of each party member.

+1 to the Meetup Group suggestion. I moved from NYC to a small town in Germany, and Meetup is how I pulled a new gaming group together.

Prime32
2010-12-12, 02:59 PM
Note that balance in CRPGs is... somewhat different from the standard game. As well, some PnP options are nigh-impossible to model.

Imagine what NWN would be like if you could fly. Or, when you're a spellcaster faced with an enemy immune to magic standing on a bridge, you could disintegrate the bridge.

And that's the least of it.

Mongoose87
2010-12-12, 03:01 PM
Note that balance in CRPGs is... somewhat different from the standard game. As well, some PnP options are nigh-impossible to model.

Imagine what NWN would be like if you could fly. Or, when you're a spellcaster faced with an enemy immune to magic standing on a bridge, you could disintegrate the bridge.

And that's the least of it.
Not to mention the vast improvement melee fighters have, when they can always full attack.

Prime32
2010-12-12, 03:09 PM
Not to mention the vast improvement melee fighters have, when they can always full attack.IIRC, not only does D&D Online let fighters always full attack, successive attacks are at a +5 bonus rather than a penalty.

Mongoose87
2010-12-12, 03:09 PM
IIRC, not only does DDO let fighters always full attack, successive attacks are at a +5 bonus rather than a penalty.

Wat


Is that a bug?

Tvtyrant
2010-12-12, 03:32 PM
Wat


Is that a bug?

Nope, its needed. CR is crazy in that game; I soloed my first CR 13 monster at level 4, and at level 7 I had to solo a CR 20 elemental. A caster does okay, but a melee character gets ruined in those fights.

Afterall golems suck in a melee fight.

Prime32
2010-12-12, 03:42 PM
DDOHeh. There's one lv3 adventure I was soloing as a rogue with an iron defender companion (marketplace, tons of spiders). The hall to the final boss contained acid traps and a rust monster. Hitting it with ranged weapons was proving difficult, and by the time I'd whacked it to death with clubs my companion was dead while my own health was getting low. Opposite the door to the final boss's room I detected a secret door. I opened it, figuring it was a rest area.

A troll came out. :smallannoyed:

Goober4473
2010-12-12, 03:49 PM
I would also suggest just picking up the Player's Handbook and giving it a read.


Wat


Is that a bug?

There are no combat rounds in DDO, so they just replaced the iterative attacks system entirely to fit better with real-time. Iterative attacks aren't so much extra attacks, since they don't improve your attack speed very much (I forget if they improve it at all even; they might not), as much as they are combos (fighting game style).

Knaight
2010-12-12, 03:59 PM
Rerailing directed straight at the OP:
D&D is only one of many games in the role playing game genre, as such I would reccomend taking a look at others. Other games frequently explain aspects of roleplaying much better than D&D, as well as having mechanics that are similar enough to give an entrance into D&D. Good free games to start with include Fudge, Fate, GURPS Lite, Savage Worlds Basic, and Nemesis.

flabort
2010-12-12, 04:26 PM
I have a suggestion, too. It's not quite an RPG... it's one of the spiritual succesors, war games.
Since it differs by a huge bit, it can't teach you a specific system (such as D&D), but it's a great help.

If you've got a bunch of spare lego around, Brik Wars (http://www.brikwars.com/) is a nice free game to start with. Or, if you've got no lego, you can substitute. so long as it's similar.
The system itself is based mostly on d6s, as opposed to d20s, and has some d10s, too, but those will be the only dice you need.

Not as helpful advice as Knaight's advice, probably, but it might help.

WinceRind
2010-12-13, 12:10 AM
Meh, even in realistic play, an epic caster needs absolutely no optimization to take over the world. PAO into an exact visual (but not mental) replica of an emperor, assassinate the emperor in his sleep and dispose of the body, take his place, win. It doesn't happen in campaigns because nobody does, but it's easily done with three spells (PAO, teleport, any SoD). At epic levels, you have epic spellcasting. Seriously, there's nothing you can't do easily with epic spellcasting.

@V: Yeah, Durkon has really surpassed gimping. V, though, kind of moved from totally un-op to decently buff-botly. (S)he's an evoker who banned Conjuration, though, so you can't get much. (S)he'd probably get a lot more mileage out of Shadow Conjuration and Polymorph, though.

I dunno about that, a considerably powerful leader in a world where magic OBVIOUSLY exists would go to some lengths to defend himself, no?

Like hiring spell casters, having magical wards everywhere and what not. Antimagic Field and various spells that screw up Teleportations do exist.

I think the main problem in your line of reasoning is that in a magical world, where the existence of magic so obviously and powerfully exists, you should expect people to know about magic as much as players. A commoner might not know anything about magic aside from "there are those wizards that do crazy **** and summon fire and monsters at will!" but an educated and powerful ruler (and he'd have to be that, else he would get killed off before the player even got there. Denying magic in the average high-magic setting would be like denying the existence of gravity, fire-arms and cars in real life.)
would have either the knowledge or the resources to anticipate most of that sort of thing.

WinceRind
2010-12-13, 12:13 AM
I would also suggest just picking up the Player's Handbook and giving it a read.



There are no combat rounds in DDO, so they just replaced the iterative attacks system entirely to fit better with real-time. Iterative attacks aren't so much extra attacks, since they don't improve your attack speed very much (I forget if they improve it at all even; they might not), as much as they are combos (fighting game style).

I must also add that in some cases, they do not improve your attack speed at all... Some animations in the game, at least back when I played it, would actually slow you down a great deal. I think monks did some kind of a backflip attack on their 3rd iterative (although might be 4th or whatever) that was much slower then the usual strike, with no real benefit.

Also, if my memory doesn't fail, I think the BAB in DDO worked in a reversed order. Your first attack would get the lowest bonus, and the later attacks would get greater and greater bonus to hit until you reached whatever counter you had.

But I might be wrong...

Serpentine
2010-12-13, 01:58 AM
These tables:
wealth by level
experience by levelI know those aren't there, but the post to which I was replying specifically mentioned treasure tables as being absent, when I use them on a regular basis.

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-13, 02:08 AM
Yeah, there are also a lot of helpful examples missing, including some nice visual aids. I think it might be a lot harder to figure out some of the more technical rules about squares and such without them. This is one of the reasons I suggest a real PHB if the OP can get one.

Endarire
2010-12-13, 02:17 AM
You can read Handbooks (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=22.0). Many of them are funny!

I recommend Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards: Being a GOD (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394).

Tvtyrant
2010-12-13, 02:22 AM
Lol, one of the handbooks is for a Sha'ir class; he attributes it to Dragon Magazine and doesn't even mention the AD&D book its from! I tell yas....

Mongoose87
2010-12-13, 02:36 AM
I think handbooks are a little advanced for someone who hasn't ever played the game.

Psyren
2010-12-13, 02:47 AM
I think handbooks are a little advanced for someone who hasn't ever played the game.

Handbooks let you know what a class is capable of, often in an entertaining format. I think even people who haven't played a game of D&D can appreciate them.

Prime32
2010-12-13, 07:43 AM
Lol, one of the handbooks is for a Sha'ir class; he attributes it to Dragon Magazine and doesn't even mention the AD&D book its from! I tell yas....You can't use an AD&D class in 3.5 :smalltongue:

Knaight
2010-12-13, 08:51 AM
I have a suggestion, too. It's not quite an RPG... it's one of the spiritual succesors, war games.

Predecessors actually, war games predate RPGs by centuries. Even ignoring the dubious borderline cases like Chess, wargames can be traced back to the 1800's easily.