Darkstalker

[Black_Zawisza]

The Darkstalker feat, from Lords of Madness:

"When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. You cannot hide in plain sight unless you have that ability as a class feature. In addition, you can fl ank creatures that have the all-around vision special quality."

At about what level does it become necessary to have Darkstalker in order to hide effectively? Is 11 early enough? Is 16?

[herrhauptmann]

I'd say the earlier the better.
But waiting until level 11 or so shouldn't be too bad.

Best suggestion, open up your monster manual to the ranking of monsters by CR. Check the CR 10-14 monsters, if it seems like a good number of them (at least a third) have blindsight, scent, blind/tremorsense, then it might be a good idea to get it by level 11.

If you're in a game where the monsters tend towards themes (trolls, underground, mountainous, demons), then check to see if that particular subset has a good proportion with those abilities.

[Flickerdart]

Do note that Darkstalker does nothing against some common vision modes such as Mindsight, which anything with telepathy can pick up with a feat. If your DM is fond of using mind-seeing creatures then you're kind of boned.

[Incanur]

Mind blank stops Mindsight.

[Flickerdart]

a) It does no such thing.
b) Even if it did, it's an 8th level spell. Mindsight can come into play as early as 1st level (Puppeteers and Pseudodragons are just two of the CR1 monsters with Telepathy).

[druid91]

And players can get it as early as 5th level.

[Incanur]

a) It does no such thing.

The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it.

I suspect that covers Mindsight.


b) Even if it did, it's an 8th level spell. Mindsight can come into play as early as 1st level (Puppeteers and Pseudodragons are just two of the CR1 monsters with Telepathy).

True enough. On the other hand, how likely is that unless the DM is specifically worried about sneaky PCs? It's a tsochar feat, after all. Not really something that's supposed to be everywhere.

[Flickerdart]

Mindblank covers "spells or effects". Mindsight is a feat. Your move.

[Claudius Maximus]

We had some big debates on this in the ToS, where Mindsight vs. Darkstalker was a frequent occurrence. I don't recall the exact arguments but I'm fairly certain we reached the conclusion that Mind Blank does not protect you from Mindsight, even though it really ought to.

Touchsight is another exotic sense that beats Darkstalker. It's a pretty decent power overall so beware psionic types who might have it.

[Flickerdart]

Why would there be arguments? Mindsight and Darkstalker are from the same book. Darkstalker does not point out Mindsight as one of the things it blocks. Therefore, it doesn't block it intentionally, RAI and RAW.

[Incanur]

A feat is a device under certain definitions of the word. :smallwink: But believe y'all have had this argument before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138299).

[faceroll]

Do note that Darkstalker does nothing against some common vision modes such as Mindsight, which anything with telepathy can pick up with a feat. If your DM is fond of using mind-seeing creatures then you're kind of boned.

Mindsight and Lifesense are exceedingly rare. I don't think they're included in the stats blocks of any NPC or vanilla monster. Actually common vision modes Darkstalker does a lot for. Touchsight might be a little more common, but I don't think I've seen that in any stats blocks.

[JaronK]

On Mindsight: by RAW, it sees through mental immunity and Mindblank, because it just says you see stuff and doesn't list any problems with such spells and protections. By RAI, it's stopped by mental immunity, since the same book Mindsight was printed in mentions that Elder Brains, who see using telepathy much like Mindsight, don't like undead because they can't see them that way.

So, do what you will with that information.

As for Darkstalker, even some low level animals have scent. I tend to take it by level 3 if at all possible on any stealth character.

JaronK

[Escheton]

Mindsight basically picks up ambient thoughts and uses it to pinpoint location.
Mindblank prevent ambient thoughts from leaking. And stops anyone from prying your mind.
Darkstalker allows you to hide from creatures with alternative means of sight/detection. Obscure ones not mentioned.

[Flickerdart]

Mindsight basically picks up ambient thoughts and uses it to pinpoint location.
Mindblank prevent ambient thoughts from leaking. And stops anyone from prying your mind.
Darkstalker allows you to hide from creatures with alternative means of sight/detection. Obscure ones not mentioned.
Nothing in what you just said is part of the actual rules.

[Incanur]

On Mindsight: by RAW, it sees through mental immunity and Mindblank, because it just says you see stuff and doesn't list any problems with such spells and protections.

Not so fast. Mightsight unambiguously fulfills one or more of the categories mind black sets out (detecting or gaining information about the target). It's a device in the sense of a technique or trick (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/device).

[Flickerdart]

Using plain English definitions for game terms is always doomed to failure and smacks of intentional misinterpretation.

[JaronK]

Not so fast. Mightsight unambiguously fulfills one or more of the categories mind black sets out (detecting or gaining information about the target). It's a device in the sense of a technique or trick (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/device).

...okay, I'll give you that's clever. But do you have any other examples of "device" used in D&D this way? I would have assumed this is referring to items. Then again, D&D rarely uses "device" anyway...

JaronK

[Incanur]

But do you have any other examples of "device" used in D&D this way? I would have assumed this is referring to items. Then again, D&D rarely uses "device" anyway...

Is there a RAW definition of "device"? Perhaps in the back of the PHB?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

By RAI, it's stopped by mental immunity, since the same book Mindsight was printed in mentions that Elder Brains, who see using telepathy much like Mindsight, don't like undead because they can't see them that way.

Actually, the mind flayer entry says illithids fear undead as well, and illithids don't all have Mindsight. In the Elder Brain's case, since Mindsight doesn't detect mindless creatures, and many undead are mindless, I'm guessing that refers to the mindless undead being immune to detection; "cannot be psionically detected" might simply refer to there being no detect undead power.

[Zaq]

And players can get it as early as 5th level.

Third, actually. A Good Incarnate can grab Shape Soulmeld: Shedu Crown at first level, bind it to his or her crown chakra at second level (thus gaining telepathy with a range of 100 feet), and then take Mindsight at third level. This isn't wholly optimal (since it eats your crown chakra and a bind slot every day that you want mindsight), but if you just want to be the party radar at any cost . . .

[faceroll]

Not so fast. Mightsight unambiguously fulfills one or more of the categories mind black sets out (detecting or gaining information about the target). It's a device in the sense of a technique or trick (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/device).

If you use that broad of a definition, Mind Blank also prevents you from using your eyes or ears to detect the target.

[Incanur]

If you use that broad of a definition, Mind Blank also prevents you from using your eyes or ears to detect the target.

Maybe, but a weird tsochar feat sounds a lot more like a trick to me than simply using your natural sensory abilities. Until somebody comes up with a RAW definition of device, who knows? Also, the extent that folks use eyes and ears to "detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts" is questionable. But perhaps the spell does protect you from diplomancy - that would be interesting.

[JaronK]

Actually, the mind flayer entry says illithids fear undead as well, and illithids don't all have Mindsight. In the Elder Brain's case, since Mindsight doesn't detect mindless creatures, and many undead are mindless, I'm guessing that refers to the mindless undead being immune to detection; "cannot be psionically detected" might simply refer to there being no detect undead power.

Yes, but one of the given reasons is immunity to psychic detection, and while zombies and skeletons are mindless, most undead are not mindless at all.

JaronK

[Incanur]

Hey, is there any way to make yourself mindless? That would also stop Mindsight. :smallwink:

[tyckspoon]

Maybe, but a weird tsochar feat sounds a lot more like a trick to me than simply using your natural sensory abilities. Until somebody comes up with a RAW definition of device, who knows? Also, the extent that folks use eyes and ears to "detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts" is questionable. But perhaps the spell does protect you from diplomancy - that would be interesting.

Well, they're certainly used to "detect... or read emotions"- a person's tone of voice, facial expressions, and body language are the primary means of understanding how they're feeling, 'cause most of the time they certainly won't just tell you.

[Incanur]

Well, they're certainly used to "detect... or read emotions"- a person's tone of voice, facial expressions, and body language are the primary means of understanding how they're feeling, 'cause most of the time they certainly won't just tell you.

Detecting the physical manifestations of emotions in facial features isn't the same thing as detecting the emotions themselves.

[JaronK]

Hey, is there any way to make yourself mindless? That would also stop Mindsight. :smallwink:

Die, and have your friend cast Animate Dead?

JaronK

[Incanur]

Die, and have your friend cast Animate Dead?

With small size, high Dex, and the right items, you could sneak well without any ranks. Take that, mindbenders! You'll never see it coming.

[JaronK]

IIRC Mindsight is blocked by an inch of lead. So just sneak around in a lead box, much like Solid Snake. Should work well...

JaronK

[Incanur]

Various divination spells are block by lead, but where does it say Mindsight or telepathy suffers the same fate?

[JaronK]

I thought it said that. I could be wrong. In which case, screw it, just be a Dread Necromancer, summon a massive swarm of zombies and skeletons, and go flush the mindsighter out!

JaronK

[Flickerdart]

Zombies and skeletons are notorious for being easy to spot without needing to resort to mindsight, though.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Basically Mindsight detects thought emanations. You are picking up on what they are broadcasting, not trying to enter into their minds. Thus, anything that keeps it from leaving your head should block it.
The Empathy power for instance allows no save, because its simply picking up on what is being broadcasted. Mindblank, however, keeps you from receiving anything via Empathy.
Thus Mindblank appears to be both protecting the mind and suppressing its broadcasting. You are effectively enclosing your brain within a mental wall. Nothing comes in, nothing goes out.

That is how I as a DM would rule it and its supported through both crunch and fluff.

[JaronK]

Zombies and skeletons are notorious for being easy to spot without needing to resort to mindsight, though.

The idea is to just run over the guy with mindsight in a wave of zombies and skeletons. He can't detect you when he's dead.

JaronK

[Flickerdart]

Yeah but he can just Hide from Undead and stand there making faces at them til he gets bored and leaves.

[bannable]

Yeah but he can just Hide from Undead and stand there making faces at them til he gets bored and leaves.

Unless they have Lifesight...

[JaronK]

They won't have that if they're mindless.

But I do love that feat.

JaronK

[Draz74]

A Third Eye: Conceal item will arguably hide you from Mindsight:


This power protects against all mind-affecting powers and effects as well as information-gathering by clairsentience powers or effects (except for metafaculty)

Of course, it's too expensive to afford before, like, Level 19. And one could argue that the item description goes on to clarify that the intent of the item was to duplicate psionic mind blank, which presumably doesn't block Mindsight any better than arcane Mind Blank.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Except Mindsight isn't mind-effecting or clairsentient to my knowledge. You are a receiver, picking up what's being broadcasted.

From what it says you are not hiding your thoughts with the third eye. You're just keeping anyone from getting inside. Mindsight doesn't even touch the mind any more than a radio is reaching out to the broadcaster.