Meteor Swarm fix?

[dragonsamurai77]

Meteor Swarm is a terrible spell with awesome fluff. How can it be fixed?

[Tvtyrant]

Make all of the damage force damage? Then it ruins ghosty things :P

Or make it so there isn't a save at all.

[olelia]

AOE Save or die that's reflex based? I mean...come on...your getting hit by f'ing meteors.

[Godskook]

How about:


1 meteor/caster level(no cap)

1 meteor/5 caster levels may target an individual target.(no cap)(Maybe based on size?)*

And if that's not enough, make it concentration, max 1 round/level.

Keeping everything else the same, you'd have a really nice army killer spell, that'd also deal significant damage against

*Keep in mind that the burst from different meteors can still hit the same target, but he'd get the save for the additional damage.

[Greenish]

Everyone in the area (even people with resistance or immunity to fire) take the full damage, and have to save vs. 1d4 rounds daze. No save for the primary target.

[Aron Times]

Meteor Swarm deals an average of 112 damage if all four meteors hit, which is roughly similar to most 9th-level manuevers. Basically, it's not that Meteor Swarm is weak; it's that Time Stop and Shapechange and Gate are broken.

Most of the direct-damage spells in 3.5 are the ones that are actually balanced. The game is balanced if fighters fight, rogues sneak, clerics heal, and wizards blast.

[Prime32]

Meteor Swarm deals an average of 112 damage if all four meteors hit, which is roughly similar to most 9th-level manuevers. Basically, it's not that Meteor Swarm is weak; it's that Time Stop and Shapechange and Gate are broken.

Most of the direct-damage spells in 3.5 are the ones that are actually balanced. The game is balanced if fighters fight, rogues sneak, clerics heal, and wizards blast.
Eh... most blasting spells are behind what a barbarian can deal out damage-wise.

[Dralnu]

The low-mid level blasting spells are in line with what PHB melee do (outside of lance charges I guess). They've got Power Attack, you've got Empower Metamagic, everybody wins.

I haven't tested it, but I think that Meteor Swarm's damage is in line with what unoptimized PHB melee do at the high levels. I think the ideal spot is where it does a bit more than what normal PHB melee do, just because it's a 9th level spell and you won't be chucking it every round.

Once melee get optimized with outside sources and all that junk, blasters can get just as lethal if not moreso. But yeah, at that point you're never going to use meteor swarm.

[Lateral]

How about:


1 meteor/caster level(no cap)

1 meteor/5 caster levels may target an individual target.(no cap)(Maybe based on size?)*

And if that's not enough, make it concentration, max 1 round/level.

Keeping everything else the same, you'd have a really nice army killer spell, that'd also deal significant damage against

*Keep in mind that the burst from different meteors can still hit the same target, but he'd get the save for the additional damage.

I like this. I like this a lot.

[Eldariel]

The low-mid level blasting spells are in line with what PHB melee do (outside of lance charges I guess). They've got Power Attack, you've got Empower Metamagic, everybody wins.

I haven't tested it, but I think that Meteor Swarm's damage is in line with what unoptimized PHB melee do at the high levels. I think the ideal spot is where it does a bit more than what normal PHB melee do, just because it's a 9th level spell and you won't be chucking it every round.

Once melee get optimized with outside sources and all that junk, blasters can get just as lethal if not moreso. But yeah, at that point you're never going to use meteor swarm.

Slightly buffed (10 min/level+ buffs of lower level slots) PHB Barbarian should have ~300+ damage a turn on 20 without all that much work (two-hander, 34+Enlarge+Grtr Rage strength, +5 weapon (GMW) with ~+9d6 (+9) worth of abilities, Haste [from Boots of Speed] & maybe Heroism or so). Accounted for Weapon Focus and Improved Crit since those are likely to be present, but not for Improved Trip or so since I didn't feel like it. It's about 330 on a full attack against AC 40; DR 15/- would cut it down to about 260. Movement damage would be terrible (maybe 90 or so), unless the character has Mounted Combat-feat line with Spirited Charge (which, let's face it, every Core Melee should since that's the only efficient way of moving and attacking), in which case it should come at least close to 300 even after movement.

Maximized Meteor Swarm is 192 in an AoE with Ref for ½ and quadrupled Fire Resist + quadrupled DR. Assuming Meta Rod access, the damage itself is fine (and a nice AoE too), just the type and efficiency of resists is the issue. Fire Resist 30 (from Resist Energy, a level 2 spell at 10 min/level and on every full caster list) alone cuts 120 points of damage out of it, and that's on a failed save. Of course, metamagicked lower level spells would add up but Core lacks metamagic for damage spells beyond Empower or Maximize spell and as they don't stack well, you can't really get that much mileage out of higher level slots for lower level damage spells.

[Temotei]

Meteor Swarm deals an average of 112 damage if all four meteors hit, which is roughly similar to most 9th-level manuevers. Basically, it's not that Meteor Swarm is weak; it's that Time Stop and Shapechange and Gate are broken.

Most of the direct-damage spells in 3.5 are the ones that are actually balanced. The game is balanced if fighters fight, rogues sneak, clerics heal, and wizards blast.

Maneuvers can be recovered in the same day they're used fairly easily. Spells take special means to do that--especially with high-level spells.

[Godskook]

@Eldariel, far as I know, DR does *NOT* apply to spells. Iirc, this was one of the major causes for an uproar when Complete Psionics was released and the book said that powers *did* suffer from DR.


I like this. I like this a lot.

Thanks

[Eldariel]

@Eldariel, far as I know, DR does *NOT* apply to spells. Iirc, this was one of the major causes for an uproar when Complete Psionics was released and the book said that powers *did* suffer from DR.

Last I checked, if spells did bludgeoning, slashing or piercing damage, they were subject to DR while not otherwise. Far as I know, it's a matter of damage types and nothing else.

[Godskook]

Last I checked, if spells did bludgeoning, slashing or piercing damage, they were subject to DR while not otherwise. Far as I know, it's a matter of damage types and nothing else.


A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction) A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.

Did you check there?

[Eldan]

I'd stack a few additional debuffs on it. Dazed has been suggested. Perhaps also deafness (from the explosion) and knocked prone (from the blast wave)?

[Eldariel]

Did you check there?

Apparently not. Fair enough. So few spells have phys damage type components that it just hasn't come up often enough for me to remember it, I suppose.

[Escheton]

It's not the spell that does the damage right? The spell summons meteors, the meteors deal bludge damage, to which DR applys.

[Tvtyrant]

stats

The only problem with this is you need to be able to make a full round attack to do that kind of damage, while the spells don't. Its kind of like Harm; compared to a melee damage dealer who is full attacking it doesn't match up, but you can move and then cast Harm on someone, and it does 75 damage on a failure. In this case Meteor Swarm doesn't require you to be close to them or be set up for a full round attack; outside of core you get pounce versus Maw, but why would you use it outside of core? In core its a reasonable spell. Not Gate good, but it also doesn't tank 1,000 xp.

[Godskook]

It's not the spell that does the damage right? The spell summons meteors, the meteors deal bludge damage, to which DR applys.

Nope. Not even then. First of all, you're trying to force things against RAW(the wording was a blanket statement). Second, assuming we want to go down that rabbit hole of logic, Meteor Swarm is SR: Yes, which means a golem is outright immune to the bludgeoning damage involved, not just the [Fire] damage. Since the bludgeoning damage is part of the 'spell', and not a byproduct, it *still* plows through DR.

[Curmudgeon]

It's not the spell that does the damage right? The spell summons meteors, the meteors deal bludge damage, to which DR applys.
Nope. Meteor Swarm isn't a Summoning spell; it's Evocation: you create the magical fiery whammy out of nothing, and that's how the damage gets done. DR doesn't apply.

[Runestar]

Meteor Swarm deals an average of 112 damage if all four meteors hit, which is roughly similar to most 9th-level manuevers. Basically, it's not that Meteor Swarm is weak; it's that Time Stop and Shapechange and Gate are broken.

Except that fire resistance ends up applying 4 times, and allows for up to 4 ranged touch attacks or reflex saves, in addition to sr. That's a lot of ifs. You would have to be very lucky to see at least 3 get through. So in reality, you might end up doing only as little as 30-40 damage.

Not to mention the time wasted rolling all those dice. :smallyuk:

Have you seen the deadly sunstroke spell from complete mage? lvd6 fire damage (fort half), possibly fatigues/exhausts the targets, extra damage against undead/plants.

[Curmudgeon]

Except that fire resistance ends up applying 4 times, and allows for up to 4 ranged touch attacks or reflex saves, in addition to sr. That's a lot of ifs. You would have to be very lucky to see at least 3 get through. So in reality, you might end up doing only as little as 30-40 damage.
You're assuming only one creature is in the target area. Meteor Swarm affects a 40' radius sphere with each of the 4 6d6 fire explosions, on top of the 4 2d6 bludgeoning damage attacks against the creature at the center each time. If the enemies are spread out then this spell gives you useful options.

Have you seen the deadly sunstroke spell from complete mage? lvd6 fire damage (fort half), possibly fatigues/exhausts the targets, extra damage against undead/plants.
Deadly Sunstroke affects creatures within a 60' diameter spread (30' radius), so only covers 56% the area of Meteor Swarm even if you drop all 4 meteors on the same target.

It's a tradeoff. If you know the target has fire resistance, then fewer individual attacks will give you a better total yield. Of course, Energy Substitution is probably the better option here anyway. :smallwink:

[Forum Explorer]

I think just removing the fire damage would go a long way to fixing it. Not even make force damage just make something like plain physical damage. Still the idea of adding additional effects would help too.

[WeLoveFireballs]

If you are looking for a single target spell check disintegrate but anything with an area is going to be less useful against one guy than the single target spells.

Seriously people need to stop saying this is up just because a barbarian can do more to one person. This spell is meant to kill armies not beat bosses.

[Eldariel]

The only problem with this is you need to be able to make a full round attack to do that kind of damage, while the spells don't..

Well, that depends; the only way for non-casters to move and deal good damage in Core is mounted charging but that works really well, actually; 3x damage is just all kinds of hot. Of course, shapeshift magic grants Pounce but that's a different ballpark entirely, already.

[Runestar]

Yeah, but when will a lv17+ wizard ever face armies of mooks? Most of the time, you will be pitted against cr-equivalent foes in a small enclosed room. So the large blast radius may not be that useful if the enemies aren't really that spread out and you can't zap them without catching your own party in the blast radius.

Plus, at higher lvs, just about every foe can be expected to have sr, decent reflex saves and some degree of fire resistance. I suppose a point can be made in that with checks being made 4 times, some meteors have to get through, so you should be always assured of doing some damage, unlike other spells like fireball, which are all or nothing.

[WeLoveFireballs]

All or nothing?

[Runestar]

All or nothing?

In terms of sr.

Sorry for not elaborating earlier.

[Amiel]

It's rather odd that said spell mandates spell resistance, what exactly is the target resisting, and similarly, fireball will make more sense if it allowed for energy resistance or immunity; to make them viable choices, evocation spells really shouldn't allow for spell resistance (but that's another kettle of fish).

I'd say that perhaps removing the need for spell resistance may be an idea.
Another would be to have the meteors deal bludgeoning and fire damage per caster level.

[Greenish]

If you are looking for a single target spell check disintegrate but anything with an area is going to be less useful against one guy than the single target spells.

Seriously people need to stop saying this is up just because a barbarian can do more to one person. This spell is meant to kill armies not beat bosses.This has the same problem as, say, Great Cleave - you're using your limited resources for defeating enemies you could defeat anyway. I'd rather prepare some fireballs and save 9th level slots for something that can be used against real threats.

Plus, at higher lvs, just about every foe can be expected to have sr, decent reflex saves and some degree of fire resistance.Though, wasn't reflex the save that scaled slowest at higher levels? I remember seeing the stats somewhere.

[ScionoftheVoid]

How about this:

Meteor
Evocation [Fire, Earth]
Level: Wiz/Sorc 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: Standard action
Range: Long (400ft+40ft/level)
Area: 40ft radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex halves; see text
Spell Resistance: No
Flames and destruction fall from the sky, incinerating the red mist that is left of your foes.
Creatures and unattended objects within the spell's area take 1d6 fire damage per caster level, creatures and unattended objects in the 20ft radius spread of the spell's area take 1d8 bludgeoning damage per caster level and are knocked prone unless they are of at least Huge size, in which case they may remain standing if they succeed a Strength check with a DC of twice this spell's caster level. Anything this spell deals fire damage to continues to burn for one hour per level at a rate of 1d6 fire damage per round (Reflex negates for one round), this burning can only be stopped by total immersion in water or by being targetted by a spell with the [Water] descriptor whose caster suceeds a caster level check with a DC of the caster level of this spell. Line of effect for this spell may be drawn from anywhere in the spell's range.

Meteor Swarm
Evocation [Fire, Earth]
Level: Wiz/Sorc 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: Full-round action
Range: 1 mile/caster level
Area: 40ft radius spread
Duration: 1 round/2 levels
Saving Throw: Reflex halves; see text
Spell Resistance: No
You begin the ritual necessary to cast the spell, close your eyes, and see fire.
As Meteor, except as follows. You may create one Meteor per round as a free action during the duration of this spell. You need not have line of sight to an area you effect with this spell, but you must be able to either visualise the location (if an appropriate location is not within the spell's range that turn's Meteor is wasted without effect) or specify a location relative to you (for example, one mile north and three to the west, or ten miles straight ahead and two to the left. Locations outside of the spell's range waste that turn's Meteor without effect).

Are those appropriate to the power level you're thinking of?

From this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172151&highlight=meteor) thread.

[Godskook]

How about this:


From this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172151&highlight=meteor) thread.

That strength check is outright ridiculous. The Tarrasque couldn't make it unless it was CL 17 or 18(Not likely, since +2 CL is *easy* by ECL 17), and he rolled a 19 or 20. And why are smaller characters deprived the strength check entirely? Just make them roll it at a penalty. Say something like strength check equal to spell DC with a -4 penalty for each size category less than huge and a +4 for each higher.