Elder scrolls V: Skyrim [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Gralamin

2010-12-12, 01:39 AM

:smallsigh:

That's not what Deus Ex Machina means. "God as Machine" refers to some outside agency that had been previously unmentioned showing up to solve the plot.

That is not what Dues Ex Machina means, but is one possible meaning. Let's go with a common ground definition of what Wikipedia uses to stop a semantics argument, shall we?

A deus ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object.
Turning into a dragon is a new ability, never before mentioned, indicated, or even foreshadowed. So it definitely is an Dues Ex Machina in that an outside force.

That's not how Oblivion ends. Akatosh is mentioned in many places and the link between the Septum line and the Amulet of Kings and Akatosh is touched upon early in the game.

Having paid close attention, read the book that comes with the game (or just the collector's edition? I dunno, I just got the collector's edition), and read 90% of the books in the game, I do not remember anything more then "Septum line is linked somehow to Akatosh, the Amulet of Kings is said to be linked to."

In fact, the Elder scrolls Wiki only goes so far to say:

Akatosh was involved in the forging of the Covenant with the new Empire of humanity, and his blood was mystically joined with Alessia and her heirs. The Amulet of Kings was the primary token of this patronage, and it allowed the new Empire of Cyrodiil to benefit from the stabilizing influence of White Gold Tower, maintaining the barrier between Mundus and the Planes of Oblivion.
That is all we know about this Covenant. No turning into a dragon, no indication that anything else was involved except the Amulet of Kings helped stop Oblivion gates from opening. Turning into an Avatar of a God is not of the power level of most deals of this sort of nature, whether in the Elder scrolls or other media. Thus it is a new ability never hinted at or mentioned, and way out of scope with any other indicated ability.

It can't qualify as a Deus Ex Machina on even the most basic of levels.
See above.

Was it a particularly good ending? No it wasn't, I agree with that, but "bad" endings are not automatically Deus Ex Machina.

Strawman. I am arguing this specific ending is a Dues Ex Machina, not all bad endings are. Nothing in my post states this applies to any more then this game, thus this is a jump of logic, and fallacious on your side.

Gorgondantess

2010-12-12, 01:45 AM

Well, that doesn't really say much. But Skyrim probably means more generic landscapes, unless they get really creative.

I'll be back to playing Morrowind.

Amen, my friend.:smallsigh:

The problem with that trailer is that it's all sound and no substance. It tells us almost nothing about the game but "fantasy epic". And from bethesda, I don't want "fantasy epic", I want huddled in a corner at level 1 hiding from the grossly overpowered enemy you stumbled into, be it a deathclaw or a daedroth.

ninjalemur

2010-12-12, 05:25 AM

Are those the akaviri?

Eldan

2010-12-12, 07:19 AM

According to the Elderscrolls Wiki, it will be a direct sequel. Not good news, especially as I never finished Oblivion in the first place.

As for the dragon being Akaviri... Tosh Raka is a dragon, sure, but as far as I know, the Tiger Dragons aren't linked to Skyrim at all.

However, I would certainly pay good money for Elderscrolls: Akavir.

Naga-vampires, Snow demons, the Monkey People and Rakshasa as playable races? Yes, please.

pffh

2010-12-12, 07:22 AM

Well lets just hope we get some more interesting environment and monsters then generic medieval Europe this time around.

Oh and no bloody autoleveling enemies!

2010-12-12, 07:28 AM

IIRC, Emergent sold off Gamebryo, so there's a chance Bethesda may have to go with something else.No, its been confirmed (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-11-23-rumour-elder-scrolls-5-in-the-works) that its Gamebryo. So look forward to cities made up of tiny zones and characters that have potatoes for faces. The inevitably dire dialogue and characterisation will not be engine related

Eldan

2010-12-12, 07:28 AM

They could just pretend that Oblivion never happened and make the imperial province a jungle again...

Triaxx

2010-12-12, 07:48 AM

Alessia was one of the ancestors of the Imperial line, and only one of Alessia's blood could wear the amulet.

Oh, and I don't mind the Auto-leveling enemies, once the game is modded, such as OOO, where they CAP the leveling of the enemies. Or F3.

dsmiles

2010-12-12, 08:08 AM

I am intrigued. I'll probably get it, since I love both Morrowind and Oblivion, but we'll see.

ninjalemur

2010-12-12, 04:22 PM

. The inevitably dire dialogue and characterisation will not be engine related

Stop right their criminal scum!

VanBuren

2010-12-12, 04:24 PM

Stop right their criminal scum!

Obligatory link is obligatory. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_2Jduxc2P8)

No, its been confirmed (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-11-23-rumour-elder-scrolls-5-in-the-works) that its Gamebryo. So look forward to cities made up of tiny zones and characters that have potatoes for faces. The inevitably dire dialogue and characterisation will not be engine related

OBJECTION!

Both Matt Grandstaff (http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1148218-new-engine/page__st__40__p__16786625#entry16786625) and the Bethblog Twitter (http://twitter.com/Bethblog/status/14010984884604929) say otherwise!

t's an all new graphics and gameplay engine internal to BGS, and it looks incredible

We can't wait to show you more

Seeing lots of speculation about #tesv game engine. It's brand new... and it's spectacular!

2010-12-13, 06:20 AM

OBJECTION!

Both Matt Grandstaff (http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1148218-new-engine/page__st__40__p__16786625#entry16786625) and the Bethblog Twitter (http://twitter.com/Bethblog/status/14010984884604929) say otherwise!I stand corrected then. Events have clearly overtaken me

VanBuren

2010-12-13, 06:37 AM

I stand corrected then. Events have clearly overtaken me

To be fair, they're being less than straightforward about it, so we should still prepare for the worst. AFAIK, Gamebryo is just a graphics rendering engine, so we might still end up with all the same problems anyway.

Eldan

2010-12-13, 06:45 AM

So, when can we actually see the game, then?

Also, I started reading up on the Skyrim lore. Apparently, there are a few interesting things they could be doing, if they don't decide to kick it all out of the window again.

shadow_archmagi

2010-12-13, 06:48 AM

Saw thread title, thought it was a VS thread for a second before I realized what Skyrim was.

(It is not a viking robot)

Eldan

2010-12-13, 06:52 AM

Hmm.

Viking Mecha..

Can we build a third Numidium in Skyrim? That would be cool. I totally would have joined Dagoth Ur if he allowed me to rebuild his into a mecha and drive it around.

Vizzerdrix

2010-12-13, 06:59 AM

I just want my medium armor and spears back. Please :smalleek:
and maybe a throwing knife, or a crossbow by chance? I... I'm willing to do anything for them. Anything...:smallfrown::smallredface:

Eldan

2010-12-13, 07:00 AM

Kzickas

2010-12-13, 07:13 AM

I think the best thing they could do for a TES game would be to focus more on the sandbox part of the game.

For exemple, in Oblivion you have the Dark Brotherhood quests that involve murdering people. The murders in those quests function completly differently from murdering any other NPC in the game, both in possible methods and likelyhood of being caught by the guards. In a game that's supposed to be a wide open sandbox that's a horrible design philosophy, what they should have done is to focus on creating mechanics that make it possible to assassinate NPC and then make the Dark Brotherhood quests teach/showcase those mechanics.

So essentially I don't think they've used their medium very well

Eldan

2010-12-13, 07:14 AM

Good point, actually...

I like the Brotherhood's poisoned apples. I just never got an NPC to eat one.

Jane_Smith

2010-12-13, 07:28 AM

Wishlist for TES 5;

1: Morrowind's skills, including medium, unarmored, enchanting, etc, with oblivion's skill perks.

2: ENCHANTING THAT CAN BE DONE WITHOUT HAVING TO DO 10-12 FLUCKING QUESTS IN A ROLE AND BEING FORCED TO JOIN A GUILD TO DO. I miss being a self-enchanter... q.q Its stupid having to play a orc warrior or something and being forced to join the mages guild just to get a bloody enchanted weapon!

3: Better bodies/faces. Is it sad morrowind had better character models then oblivion? Seriously... as stated prior, potatoe heads much?

4: Make the player the hero, not some random mook 193939191. : / Didnt work in oblivion, learn from your mistakes.

5: No more leveling monsters. Bosses or major enemys, like the BBEG are fine, but having level 105 goblins is redonkulus.

6: Pets, cohorts, and/or mercenarys. Make the game give you more companions. I miss the old mercenary from morrowind: tribrunal, and the pack rat... oh mr. fluffy, how i miss you. :smallfrown:

7: Mounted combat. Gimme. At the very least, with ranged weapons. Or spears...

8: FLYING SPELLS. Cause mages dont need no friggin' stairs. -dusts off robes and hat-

9: Forgot - Two-weapon fighting. o_o

That is all.

Eldan

2010-12-13, 07:32 AM

Honestly, I really only want one thing:

An interesting world. Seriously. Add some intrigue back in. Make the different guilds and organizations plot against each other. Add in a few dozen interesting locations. Modders could do it, why can't you? And most of all: give us the mysticism back. The Elder Scrolls have a huge mythology, and I want to feel it again. Warring cults. Shrines to strange gods. Mysterious spirits.

shadow_archmagi

2010-12-13, 07:44 AM

Ha!

Didn't you know axes, clubs, hammers and staves work all exactly the same? And spears and crossbows totally don't exist. At all.

In more serious news: I doubt they'll add more complexity back to the system. But the skill level perks in Oblivion were nice idea.

I think Dwarf Fortress had the best system, where there are individual weapon skills as well as generalized "Fighter, Striker, Dodger" skills, so that a swordsman who picks up an axe isn't totally helpless, but will be less successful than a swordsman with a sword.

Kzickas

2010-12-13, 08:02 AM

I read an article a while back about either Prototype or Infamous that had some pretty good thoughts about making sandbox games, but now I can't find it :smallfrown:

Edit: Found it: http://www.thealexandrian.net/archive/archive2010-05.html, at the bottom. Most of it's not really relevant to TES especially since they don't use procedurally generated quests. But some of it is.

Little Bo Peep

2010-12-13, 09:56 AM

No, its been confirmed (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-11-23-rumour-elder-scrolls-5-in-the-works) that its Gamebryo. So look forward to cities made up of tiny zones and characters that have potatoes for faces. The inevitably dire dialogue and characterisation will not be engine related

To the contrary, dear Om.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/106063-Bethesda-Ditching-Old-Tech-for-New-Elder-Scrolls-Game

To quote:

A tweet from the official Bethesda Twitter feed said the developer had seen a lot of speculation about the technology that Skyrim would use, and confirmed that it would run on a "spectacular" new engine. When pressed on whether "new" meant entirely new, or some new version of GameBryo, Bethesda community manager Nick Breckon said that "new" meant a brand new, internally created, "gameplay/graphics engine."

Dragor

2010-12-13, 09:59 AM

I really should note whether my girlfriend is logged in or not when I post. The above post was mine, for recognition. :3

Eldan

2010-12-13, 10:03 AM

Ah, I don't care how it looks. For my tastes, games really don't need to be any shinier. I want to know what it plays like.

Kzickas

2010-12-13, 10:07 AM

In my opinion technical quality is not the same as prettyness, IMO Morrowind was prettier than Oblivion because it had better art direction/art (compare npc in the two, dwemer ruins vs. Ayleid ruins, etc)

Emperor Ing

2010-12-13, 10:11 AM

Hmm, ME 3 teaser trailer and TES 5 all come out within a few days of each other?

I AM VERY HAPPY! :D

Psyren

2010-12-13, 10:40 AM

I don't give a damn where it's set, I just want a character advancement system that doesn't punish me for doing what my character is supposed to be good at.

I've taken to mentally dropping the "Major Skills" tag, replacing it in my head with "Flaws", and putting there the skills that my character almost never touches.

For example, on my Breton mage, I didn't have a single magic skill as a major skill. It worked extremely well.

Here's my second request of Bethesda; please let us craft our own spells WITHOUT needing to bull**** our way through every backwater mage guild on the continent. And if you must force this rite of passage on us, at least make the quests somewhat related to the school of magic in question. Thank you

pffh

2010-12-13, 10:44 AM

Speaking of guilds lets hope you can't become a master of a guild without even having to touch the relevant skills.

"Rarr I are archmage smash crush axe death"

Psyren

2010-12-13, 11:13 AM

To the contrary, dear Om.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/106063-Bethesda-Ditching-Old-Tech-for-New-Elder-Scrolls-Game

To quote:

Correct, GameBryo is finally out.
Of course, that doesn't mean that their in-house thing will be any better. :smallsigh:

Why they just didn't go with Source is beyond me, especially since they love the physics traps so much.

Speaking of guilds lets hope you can't become a master of a guild without even having to touch the relevant skills.

"Rarr I are archmage smash crush axe death"

I actually got tickled by that - my Orc Barbarian forcing the mage council to cower in fear, Daedric Battleaxe strapped to the back of his robes.

sihnfahl

2010-12-13, 11:22 AM

No really, it's concrete evidence that Bethesda still knows how to make a game. Or maybe I've just lost my marbles. :smalltongue:
Keep the marbles in the bag at the moment.

It's not a Bethesda game until people play through and find the bugs.

You know, like quests not flagging as completed? Items disappearing from follower's inventory when a quest event temporarily isolates them from you?

boj0

2010-12-13, 11:32 AM

Incomplete dialogue trees only accessible by getting in the source code? :smallwink:

Like any Bethesda game, I'm expecting a metric-ton of raw potential for the mod community to get a kick out of.
Oh, and vikings :smallbiggrin:

Penguinizer

2010-12-13, 11:37 AM

I'm hoping the setting is more interesting than Oblivion. Morrowind was a fun game, if a bit slow at times.

It's not an Elder Scrolls game if your primary form of movement isn't bunnyhopping.

Kzickas

2010-12-13, 11:42 AM

I hope they get a decent stealth system this time around. The fighting and magic in Oblivion was decent, but sneaking sucked. That and a workable level/enemy system (I'd prefer fixed world, but I doubt I'll get it)

Psyren

2010-12-13, 11:44 AM

It's all right if some enemies scale... but more importantly, scaling should be a function of time, not your own level. i.e. if you dawdle too much, your enemies grow stronger, which is expected. You are then encouraged to train up your major skills quickly as you travel in order to keep up, rather than ignore them until you're ready to level with triple-5s.

Somebloke

2010-12-13, 12:06 PM

I really, really am looking forward to this game. I loved Morrowind and thought Oblivion was okay, but somewhat generic and a bit bland. But I have to beg Bethesda, beg them, with the soul of my first-born on offer if they fulfill their end of the bargain,

Fix the

****ING

skills/levelling system!

I don't want to have my rogue character spend half an hour every level crouching behind a town guard every level in order to get the skill points to be effective. I don't want to have to select as major skills all of the skills I don't want to use so that I'm at level 10 half an hour later and being beaten up by passing moths. I don't want most of the class options presented as Canon choices selected to me by the game to be utterly incompetent at anything (hello bard). I don't want to self-cast 'self-fatigue-1-1sec' spells 1000gazillion times over every level to function as an evoker.

...

Oh, and a more evocative atmosphere a la Morrowind would be nice.

Maeglin_Dubh

2010-12-13, 12:22 PM

I just want my medium armor and spears back. Please :smalleek:
and maybe a throwing knife, or a crossbow by chance? I... I'm willing to do anything for them. Anything...:smallfrown::smallredface:

This. The ability to somewhat counter spellcasters with throwing weapons in Morrowind made it possible to be a true Mage-Slayer.

Valameer

2010-12-13, 12:50 PM

Playing through Morrowind, I correctly guessed that the next game would be set in Cyrodiil just by all the rumors of unrest in the that province.

Playing through Oblivion, I correctly guessed that the next game would be set in the Summerset Isles just by all the rumors of un...

Wait, what? Skyrim!?

I'm torn.

Both Morrowind and Oblivion rank on my top 10 favorite games. I'm interested in getting a Skyrim game eventually, but I can't see how much different Skyrim will be than Daggerfall and Oblivion.

I was REALLY looking forward to Summerset. Strange, exotic, and full of wonder. A dramatic opposite to the very normal and human lands of Cyrodiil.

Skyrim feels like it has been done already. Daggerfall had around a third of Skyrim included in it's setting. Morrowind had Solstheim, both of which gave us a good feel for how things are in Skyrim.

I want something different. Summerset, Black Marsh, Elsweyr, heck even Akavir. Just not Hammerfell or Skyrim, they've been featured in enough games already.

Ah, whatever. If my computer can run it, I'll probably enjoy it enough.

Eldan

2010-12-13, 01:09 PM

Actually, thinking back now, I liked the atmosphere in Bloodmoon. If they can make it like that, I'm happy, despite the not-very-special landscape. It still had ice caves, and glaciers, and underwater tunnels and peaks to climb.

Kris Strife

2010-12-13, 01:18 PM

How about spells that don't look like different colored balls of light or glowing hands? :smallyuk:

boj0

2010-12-13, 01:21 PM

What rating do you think Bethesda's going for? Morrowind was rated T (in the States) and was still fantastic, Oblivion got an M (apparently because of the "possibility" that hackers could add a nude mod by breaking the game code); but it didn't feel like an M, more like a hard T.

They have shown an ability to do M well with Fallout, but will they go all-out in Skyrim? Blood soaked werewolves and Nord curses abound? Decapitations? (ooh add Bloody Mess as a weapon perk!)

warty goblin

2010-12-13, 01:24 PM

Correct, GameBryo is finally out.
Of course, that doesn't mean that their in-house thing will be any better. :smallsigh:

Why they just didn't go with Source is beyond me, especially since they love the physics traps so much.

Source would be a terrible, terrible choice for an open world game. Works great for games with levels, which TES is anything but.

A better option would be the engine Bohemia Interactive uses for the ARMA games. It's capable of rendering gobstopperingly stupid amounts of terrain and AI over serious distances, the latest version is even pretty good at interiors. Of course I don't think they license it out, and it'd probably melt a console anyways.

Eldan

2010-12-13, 01:28 PM

How about spells that don't look like different colored balls of light or glowing hands? :smallyuk:

Well, mods have taken care of that. Like they have of pretty much all the problems of Oblivion, apart from the boring story. But at least they made exploration interesting again, so I could at least have fun dungeoncrawling.
I never finished the main quest of Oblivion, or even got very far in it (I brought Martin to the secret fortress of the Blades, then stopped caring), but I still liked parts of the game.

If Skyrim has a good modding tool but is otherwise bland, I'll do the same I do with many games: wait half a year until it's cheap, then mod the hell out of it.

Triaxx

2010-12-13, 01:44 PM

But... but, I just learned how to work the old construction set. *bangs head*

Spend as much time on the CS as you do the main plot that no one is going to play, or even remember.

Because it could be stupidly hard even playing a level 1 game.

Psyren

2010-12-13, 01:50 PM

Source would be a terrible, terrible choice for an open world game.

You mean like an MMO? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindictus)

Terry576

2010-12-13, 02:28 PM

You mean like an MMO? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindictus)

Wait doesn't Vindictus use the Valve engine? I could've sworn that they state that on their homepage. Nevermind, I'm an idiot. Valve developed Source.

Besides, it's pretty decent for any given MMO, particularly when you compare it to the other games Nexon has created. But it's a pretty damn good engine for an open world game. You break boxes, the environment interacts with the characters and the enemies, and it's fairly nice. But back on topic. My real problem for Skyrim is this:

No matter what, it will not be as good as Nehrim.

That's right. Nehrim, the mod. Nehrim, the fully voice-acted Oblivion mod, in german. Which makes it feel more immersive somehow. The game where you actually feel fear without your console. I worry that Skyrim can't live up to that.

And guys? Do you really think Bethesda will keep the leveling system that ninety percent of the players bitched about, and when that one awesome mod came out for it, the creator was praised to the heavens? You REALLY expect that?

You guys are total pessimists.

And yet I'm still looking forward to Skyrim.

Comet

2010-12-13, 02:35 PM

Nehrim is, indeed, the only thing I consider good about Oblivion. If it weren't for that one total conversion, I'd think that Oblivion was a failure and a huge waste of everyone's time.

I thought that Oblivion had killed all my enthusiasm towards Elder Scrolls, but somehow this trailer has gotten me sort of excited again. Must be the music, combined with the promise of dragons, vikings and the chosen hero DRAGONBORN. It all seems like the sort of stuff that one could find in some obscure Norse rock opera or something, which could make for a really cool game.
And the news about them building a new engine is well received. The Oblivion thing was only good for terrain and even there it was sort of limited. Returning to the topic of Nehrim, which is excellent if you did not know, I'm surprised they managed to make such an immersive story out of such a lackluster engine.

Eldan

2010-12-13, 02:36 PM

Always been a pessimist, always will be. But a happy one. :smalltongue:

Psyren

2010-12-13, 02:45 PM

Didn't Morrowind use the same bass-ackwards leveling system as Oblivion, where focusing on your Major skills pumped your levels up too quickly and made the game harder? Why was that game lauded while Oblivion was lambasted?

I enjoyed Morrowind (once I got the levelling down) just like I'm enjoying Oblivion, but it seemed like the same problem to me; I feel like I'm missing something.

Wait doesn't Vindictus use the Valve engine? I could've sworn that they state that on their homepage. Nevermind, I'm an idiot. Valve developed Source.

And here is Vindictus in action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAMnvpNVEB8)

Eldan

2010-12-13, 02:46 PM

As far as I remember, the world didn't really scale with you in Morrowind. There were areas that would pretty much kill you on level one, and others you could breeze through on level 30.

Which I liked.

And is it just me, or do the graphics of Vindictus look absolutely horrible?

Terry576

2010-12-13, 02:52 PM

And here is Vindictus in action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAMnvpNVEB8)

I... I'm confused. Are we mocking Vindictus or praising it? I thought it was pretty fun. Part I hate is how there is only one town.

Dogmantra

2010-12-13, 02:59 PM

Didn't Morrowind use the same bass-ackwards leveling system as Oblivion, where focusing on your Major skills pumped your levels up too quickly and made the game harder? Why was that game lauded while Oblivion was lambasted?

A few random spawn lists were levelled but other than that, Addamasartus for example had the same few bandits in it, and that Wizard dude's best spell was still Weakness to Common Disease no matter how high a level you were. In Oblivion every single thing was scaled to your level. Including quest rewards.

Also putting Major Skills as something that you intended to use a lot did mean you couldn't be as high a level in the end but that wasn't really a big deal given that pretty much the only things that scaled with level were health and attributes.

Psyren

2010-12-13, 03:28 PM

I... I'm confused. Are we mocking Vindictus or praising it? I thought it was pretty fun. Part I hate is how there is only one town.

I'm simply pointing out how you can make an open-world game with the Source engine. (MMOs are open-world by definition.)

I won't comment on the execution, having never played it.

A few random spawn lists were levelled but other than that, Addamasartus for example had the same few bandits in it, and that Wizard dude's best spell was still Weakness to Common Disease no matter how high a level you were. In Oblivion every single thing was scaled to your level. Including quest rewards.

Also putting Major Skills as something that you intended to use a lot did mean you couldn't be as high a level in the end but that wasn't really a big deal given that pretty much the only things that scaled with level were health and attributes.

Ah, that makes much more sense now, thank you. I can see how Oblivion exacerbated the levelling issue.

fimzo

2010-12-13, 04:03 PM

Wait, if it's a sequel to Oblivion, they aren't saying that Oblivion's plot never happened and that Cyrodiil is still a jungle. Why did they have to change that in the first place? Exotic, unusual places are much more interesting than stereotypical medieval. I hope the game's more like Morrowind, which I still play (and am, incidentally, playing right now).

Emperor Ing

2010-12-13, 04:09 PM

All I want to see

Updated graphics. This is gonna happen either way. :P

Varied level design. The closest thing we have to that in Oblivion is geomerging of out-of-place objects. Why do all ayleid ruins/imperial fort ruins/caverns/whatever have to look exactly the same?

Fighting: There's only so many ways to kill enemies and it gets repetitive after a while. Improving weapon varieties as well as increasing player ability to get creative would be great, I would suggest getting creative in spellcasting and bringing back crossbows/thrown weapons. Maybe make going crazy with dual-wielding an option. Forget going for a teen rating, LET THERE BE BLOOD AND GORE!! Dismemberment a la the Deadly Reflex mod (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqnLhuvEOIA) would be wonderful.

TL;DR, more options for combat.

Fixed leveling system. I like the XP-based leveling in Fallout 3, Bethesda might wanna take a hint from that, but I would avoid copy-pasting it.

Level Scaling. DO NOT WANT!!! At level 1 the world is infested with rats and legendary ruins are filled with wimpy skeletons with a low level zombie boss fight. I'd be okay with enemies scaling a little bit, but i'd prefer there just to be places that would be suicide for a low-level character to get to.

Scaling loot. DO NOT WANT!!! At level 1 everyone has iron whatever. By level 25, almost everyone has Daedric Weapons/Armor. Daedric armor is supposed to be Ebony armor (which is ridiculously expensive/rare/whatever) with the soul of a daedroth in it. Obviously, kind of a big thing. What I want is to make it so Daedric Armor/Weapons isn't as easy as going to a marauder hole at level 21+ and beating up a few baddies. Make it REALLY special, like special loot at the end of a super quest or a high-end quest for a legendary armorsmith/demonologist (daedrologist?)

Enemies: They can only kill me in 3 ways. Hitting me until I die, shooting at me with arrows, or flinging painful but easy to dodge spells. Yeeeeah...they need better tactics. Big time.

fimzo

2010-12-13, 04:15 PM

Terraoblivion

2010-12-13, 04:45 PM

Except for Arena which went to all provinces, there has been no Elder Scrolls game set in Skyrim. Daggerfall took place around the Iliac Bay, which is the body of water separating High Rock and Hammerfall. The closest you ever get to Skyrim in it is the Wrothgarian Mountains, which is in the western part of the Western Reach which is the borderlands between High Rock and Skyrim, but traditionally considered part of the former.

fimzo

2010-12-13, 05:31 PM

Solstheim, from the Bloodmoon expansion for Morrowind, is almost in Skyrim. It's mostly Nordic architecture and culture, and has huge ice-capped mountains and frozen lakes.

Emperor Ing

2010-12-13, 05:40 PM

Bethesda made Fallout 3. I agree, it's a good leveling system, and I hope they use it, if not something better. Also, the scaling loot and enemies was better in Morrowind, Oblivion's predecessor. It was still there, but to a lesser extent, and some things were fixed (like Daedric armor).

I mentioned fallout 3 because I know bethesda made it. I liked the leveling and ability system from that game, so I just mentioned they should take hints from it.

Arbitrarity

2010-12-13, 05:46 PM

I'm simply pointing out how you can make an open-world game with the Source engine. (MMOs are open-world by definition.)

I won't comment on the execution, having never played it.

Well you're wrong. It's not open-world. There is one town, and a bunch of instantiated linear quest levels that appear to be very similar and built in a normal Sourcey fashion. It reminds me of Mass Effect 2, with the entire "a bunch of fixed levels and a central hub to choose them from", except with no story, no real voice acting, grind, a bizarre gear system, fighter style gameplay rather than shooter, and absurdly high health bosses. Oh, and limited destructible environments that often act in a ridiculous fashion.

Psyren

2010-12-13, 05:58 PM

Well you're wrong. It's not open-world. There is one town, and a bunch of instantiated linear quest levels that appear to be very similar and built in a normal Sourcey fashion. It reminds me of Mass Effect 2, with the entire "a bunch of fixed levels and a central hub to choose them from", except with no story, no real voice acting, grind, a bizarre gear system, fighter style gameplay rather than shooter, and absurdly high health bosses. Oh, and limited destructible environments that often act in a ridiculous fashion.

I suspect your definition of open-world is rather arbitrary. :smallwink:

Anyway, it's open enough for me, just like ME2 was open enough for me.

Arbitrarity

2010-12-13, 06:01 PM

Not open world enough for Elder Scrolls. There's a big difference between Elder Scrolls open and Mass Effect 2 open in terms of engine requirements.

Eldan

2010-12-13, 06:06 PM

Yeah. Elder Scrolls open means that I can take out a map of a game world and see forty places I want to see just because of their names alone. That I can finish the basic control tutorial, and then just get a weapon, a suit of armour and walk into any direction I want, for hours, and always find something interesting.

Maeglin_Dubh

2010-12-13, 06:08 PM

I loved Bloodmoon.

Solstheim Castle was also amazing.

warty goblin

2010-12-13, 06:15 PM

I suspect your definition of open-world is rather arbitrary. :smallwink:

Anyway, it's open enough for me, just like ME2 was open enough for me.

Pretty much any definition is arbitrary, that doesn't stop some of them from being more meaningful than others. The usual definition of 'open world' in games is just what it sounds like: A single, large, and continuous landscape in which the player is free to move with a minimum of physical constraints. Oblivion is an open world game, Mass Effect 2 is not, if anything ME 2 is a hub based title wherein you use a central clearing house to determine your next destination.

Insofar as I'm aware, it would be between difficult and impossible to do an open world game with Source, it simply isn't built for it, since it seems to rely on discrete loading points instead of streaming content.

fireinakasha

2010-12-13, 06:19 PM

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-12-13, 06:23 PM

Um...I went back to playing Mass Effect 2 so I've got it out of the way and I can play this new game before Mass Effect 3 comes out. :smallredface:

I've got a lingering suspicion that the player character will not be the Dohvakiin talked about in the trailer though. The character is specifically identified as male, and that would eliminate the possibility of female player characters.

fireinakasha

2010-12-13, 06:37 PM

I've got a lingering suspicion that the player character will not be the Dohvakiin talked about in the trailer though. The character is specifically identified as male, and that would eliminate the possibility of female player characters.

Well technically, the scrolls identify the character as male. A lot of people in Tamriel also thought the Nerevarine would be a dark elf, but just how many khajits do you think have destroyed Dagoth Ur?

Eldan

2010-12-13, 06:43 PM

VanBuren

2010-12-13, 06:45 PM

Suedars

2010-12-13, 06:58 PM

I did.

...

It was Oblivion. True story.

You n'wah!

Eldan

2010-12-13, 06:58 PM

warty goblin

2010-12-13, 07:06 PM

Side note since Mass effect has been mentioned...

I've thought about getting Mass Effect 1. It's nice and cheap at the moment. The question, however, is: Is it better than Dragon Age? Dragon Age, I thought, started well, was pretty interesting, actually, but then turned into an tedious grin of endless hordes of near-identical quasi-orcs. Is Mass Effect better in that regard?

I'd say it's several times better, honestly. I actually finished Mass Effect, and got about halfway through a second playthrough. Shepard might not be the most interesting of people, but he/she's a hell of a lot more interesting than the charisma black hole you play as in Dragon Age.

edit: ME only gets tedious if you do all the side missions, so don't. Most of them aren't brilliant anyways, and the game is easy enough on normal difficulty that you don't need to grind for loot and experience.

Eldan

2010-12-13, 07:10 PM

Hmm. Might buy it, then. Saw it for 15$ yesterday.

And honestly, if I ever have to do something like those dwarven mines again...

VanBuren

2010-12-13, 07:13 PM

I'd say it's several times better, honestly. I actually finished Mass Effect, and got about halfway through a second playthrough. Shepard might not be the most interesting of people, but he/she's a hell of a lot more interesting than the charisma black hole you play as in Dragon Age.

edit: ME only gets tedious if you do all the side missions, so don't. Most of them aren't brilliant anyways, and the game is easy enough on normal difficulty that you don't need to grind for loot and experience.

It's fine even if you do the side missions. It's only tedious if you explore all the planets. Don't. Just go straight to side mission locations and then get off the planet.

You n'wah!

Is Morrowind's story superior? Yes. But I found the interface and gameplay just infuriating. IMO, Oblivion is far more user-friendly, and frankly just more fun to play.

pffh

2010-12-13, 07:27 PM

Hmm. Might buy it, then. Saw it for 15$ yesterday.

And honestly, if I ever have to do something like those dwarven mines again...

Eugh the deep road is the only reason dragon age only got one playthrough from me but yeah ME is not nearly as grindy. In fact I don´t think it ever felt grindy.

Now ME2 probing system eugh never again.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-12-13, 07:32 PM

Well technically, the scrolls identify the character as male. A lot of people in Tamriel also thought the Nerevarine would be a dark elf, but just how many khajits do you think have destroyed Dagoth Ur?

Ah, no. A lot of people in Tamriel thought the Nerevarine was just some weird cult in a backwater part of a xenophobic and strange province, until the prophecy was fulfilled. Sure the Emperor knew, but who else did outside of Vvardenfell itself?

LemonFarmer

2010-12-13, 08:11 PM

loved oblivion, trailer is awesome
and even if there are level dependent creatures i can always mod.

Suedars

2010-12-13, 09:42 PM

Is Morrowind's story superior? Yes. But I found the interface and gameplay just infuriating. IMO, Oblivion is far more user-friendly, and frankly just more fun to play.

I've never been able to play Oblivion for more than a few hours in a playthrough, even heavily modded. Sure, combat and the UI are better (once you get a mod to make it not so infuriatingly designed for consoles), but aside from that the game has the depth of a kiddie pool. After fighting through 3 copy-paste dungeons for the same generic loot, and fetching 4 mcguffins for different NPCs who have no place in the world aside from being "questgiver_08" who all have the exact same voice actor you begin to get sick of the pointlessness of the game.

On the other hand, Morrowind's combat might have been mediocre, but combat was only a tiny part of the game. What always drew me in was exploring a world that felt realer than any other game I've played. In Morrowind there actually were new things to discover, random artifacts tucked away in unusual places.

VanBuren

2010-12-13, 09:45 PM

Huh. Well I felt the opposite, which just goes to show that different strokes and all.

...

Don't be like that other guy I was talking to before who implied that I don't have as refined a sense of taste as he for disagreeing. Please?

Psyren

2010-12-13, 11:57 PM

One thing I did like about Oblivion was the diversity. It wasn't wall-to-wall Drow in cities whose names I could barely pronounce.

But Morrowind was still a ton of fun. One trick I used (without cheating) was I made a custom spell called "Breath Mint" - Fortify Personality and Luck 80 pts on self for 1 sec. The short duration would have made it useless... except the game only checks your persuasiveness when you start the conversation. The world was all smiles for me after that particular gem, and I didn't have to go around charming everyone :smallwink:

Leecros

2010-12-14, 12:32 AM

I'm kind of with the Morrowind Crowd here...

I enjoyed both games very well, but Morrowind was definitely better than Oblivion. I remember when i first bought the game i spent ~3 days in a row playing it. Oblivion i only spent a couple of days.

I also liked Morrowind's story better. When you're standing in
The Cavern of the Incarnate after obtaining Moon-and-Star, listening to the stories of the failed incarnates and realizing that you ARE The Nerevarine
It probably is one of the best feelings that a game has given me.

On top of spending a rather large number of months collecting artifacts for the Museum of artifacts which was really fun...

but i enjoyed Oblivion too. And the first time i entered an Oblivion Gate i got a very ominous feeling. Of course after awhile Oblivion gates all turn out to be the same, but if they managed to keep that feeling then i would have been very surprised. It would not have been an easy feat. I would have preferred some kind of random generation to those. I never had a huge problem with the leveling system, although i really didn't like it as much in hindsight, it makes replayability an issue. However with that said i do think it was a good experiment and with the feedback they were given about it on the forums, i'm sure that ultimately it will and has made their future games better.

In terms of ratings i personally would give Morrowind a 9/10 and Oblivion a 7/10. If Bethesda takes what they learned from Oblivion and apply it to Skyrim then i easily see it being an 8/10.

Although i really wish that video game companies would stop worrying about graphics. Now this is coming from a guy who plays Dwarf Fortress with no tilesets, but the way i see it, Video game designers are putting more and more effort and resources into visuals and all of that effort and resources are being taken away from every other important thing to a game, depth, story,variety, replayability, lore, etc... With very,very few exceptions.

Personally i'm spending more time playing games with poorer graphics than i am newer games.

fireinakasha

2010-12-14, 12:45 AM

Personally i'm spending more time playing games with poorer graphics than i am newer games.

Same. I still play the Baldur's Gate series.

I am reminded of some game designer somewhere who left the industry because, and I quote (ish), "game designers these days are making graphics, not games."

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-12-14, 01:13 AM

I think both Morrowind and Oblivion had their ups and downs. Morrowind's story was richer and the world was more diverse, but Oblivion's little conveniences like the fast-travel system and stuff made a difference. As to levelling monsters...it never really mattered to me because I cheated back when I played those games. :smallredface:

I've watched the trailer for Skyrim about twenty times now, and I'm quite excited (the chanting music is especially heart-rate increasing!). But now that I've done some more research, is it just me or is the Elder Scrolls really taking a turn for the GRIMDARK? The Infernal City mentions...
...that not only was Morrowind, the land we've come to know and love, almost completely destroyed, and then conquered by the Argonians, but it was partially our fault due to the fact that the Nerevarine set the events in motion by ending the Tribunal's divinity.

Despite Ocato's best hopes and the efforts of the Champion of Cyrodiil/Sheogorath, the Empire finally collapses, causing the different races to once again divide and war against each other.

Thanks to Morrowind's destruction and the ever-present power of everyone's favorite soul-eating sword, Umbra, there's a city flying around exterminating populations to sustain its flight.
And now Skyrim has fractured into civil war, right when a bunch of unfriendly dragons appear out of nowhere to sow even more destruction?

What is Tamriel coming to?!

warty goblin

2010-12-14, 01:30 AM

It's fine even if you do the side missions. It's only tedious if you explore all the planets. Don't. Just go straight to side mission locations and then get off the planet.

And really only do the side missions you are interested in. ME is not a game designed to reward the obsessive completionist, since as far as I can tell most of the fun side missions are the fairly obvious ones, and doing too many causes some serious warehouse fatigue. People get bitchy about Halo running you through a level or two in reverse, but it's nothing to an entire galaxy built out of the same three bloody storage sheds. At least Halo's levels made sense in context and looked good.

What is Tamriel coming to?!
It's a basic symptom of an RPG world. Because the essence of pretty much every RPG story ever is 'save region/people X from threat Y,' and the definition of a successful game anymore is how many sequels you can milk out of it, the chances of more than a few years without some massive existential threat in a best selling RPG setting are zero to nothing.

Actually it's worse than that, because if the stakes don't increase, the followup games are going to be seen as dull in comparison to their awesomer forebearers. Clearly that is unacceptable. So as long as the games keep selling not only is there no hope of a future not full of ugly things invading bent on wiping out all life, but said invasions will also become more and more severe. If the first game is orcs, the third one will be demons, and really dragons are just about the only reasonable choice after that.

What's after dragons? Setting reboot.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-12-14, 01:49 AM

It's a basic symptom of an RPG world. Because the essence of pretty much every RPG story ever is 'save region/people X from threat Y,' and the definition of a successful game anymore is how many sequels you can milk out of it, the chances of more than a few years without some massive existential threat in a best selling RPG setting are zero to nothing.

Actually it's worse than that, because if the stakes don't increase, the followup games are going to be seen as dull in comparison to their awesomer forebearers. Clearly that is unacceptable. So as long as the games keep selling not only is there no hope of a future not full of ugly things invading bent on wiping out all life, but said invasions will also become more and more severe. If the first game is orcs, the third one will be demons, and really dragons are just about the only reasonable choice after that.

What's after dragons? Setting reboot.

At this rate, the sixth Elder Scrolls game will be dealing with Tamriel's apocalypse and will end with Tamriel finally being destroyed. Dammit, why can't you save the world, and once, just once, have it STAY saved?! :smallfrown:

Talkkno

2010-12-14, 02:18 AM

It's a basic symptom of an RPG world. Because the essence of pretty much every RPG story ever is 'save region/people X from threat Y,' and the definition of a successful game anymore is how many sequels you can milk out of it, the chances of more than a few years without some massive existential threat in a best selling RPG setting are zero to nothing.

Actually it's worse than that, because if the stakes don't increase, the followup games are going to be seen as dull in comparison to their awesomer forebearers. Clearly that is unacceptable. So as long as the games keep selling not only is there no hope of a future not full of ugly things invading bent on wiping out all life, but said invasions will also become more and more severe. If the first game is orcs, the third one will be demons, and really dragons are just about the only reasonable choice after that.

What's after dragons? Setting reboot.

That doesn't really apply to tabletop RPGs though, people still play Dark Hersey even if they have Deathwatch, despite the latter you play as mook in the Inquisitional heirchary and the other a freaking Space Marine.
So I don't think that has to be true for CRPGs as well.
Keep in mind Dark Hersey and there like are constanly top 5 standing right under D&D oft times in terms of sales.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-12-14, 02:26 AM

That doesn't really apply to tabletop RPGs though, people still play Dark Hersey even if they have Deathwatch, despite the latter you play as mook in the Inquisitional heirchary and the other a freaking Space Marine.
So I don't think that has to be true for CRPGs as well.
Keep in mind Dark Hersey and there like are constanly top 5 standing right under D&D oft times in terms of sales.
I don't know if WH4K really counts, since that was the original GRIMDARK. It started there and it's consistently stayed there. I'm talking about how a lot of sequels, and indeed it seems video games in general are getting, at least among RPGs.

Skyrim, we've been discussing along with what's gone on in the rest of Tamriel.

The new Deus Ex game, I assume, will be just like any other Deus Ex game, where right and wrong are too opaque to make out, and really you're not making the world better in any route you take.

Mass Effect 3 has the Reapers attacking Earth.

And Dragon Age's universe is likely going down as well, given Morrigan's Old-God-baby, the schemes of the Architect, or, if the Architect was slain, the continuing cycle of Blights, demonic invasions every-which-where and the Chantry apparently on the brink of destruction.

Talkkno

2010-12-14, 02:41 AM

I don't know if WH4K really counts, since that was the original GRIMDARK. It started there and it's consistently stayed there. I'm talking about how a lot of sequels, and indeed it seems video games in general are getting, at least among RPGs.

Can you freaking spoiler the whited out text? It's easier on the eyes.

I disagree on that count, because 40k is actually getting less Grim dark compared the days of the original Rogue Trader IMO. Heck it's even implied in Amberly's footnotes and passages she inserts that the 42nd millennium is at least for now is less turbulent then the 41st.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-12-14, 02:43 AM

Can you freaking spoiler the whited out text? It's easier on the eyes.
It also breaks up the post, in the middle of a sentence, no less.

Eldan

2010-12-14, 03:45 AM

So in Elder Scrolls VI, Lorkhan is reawakened, Masser and Secunda come to live and fall down on Nirn, then the vampire serpent people of Akavir invade Tamriel, the Dwemer return in their city-constructs to battle the moon dragons, accidentally wiping out the Altmer, and in the end, the hero of the game has to sacrifice the imperial bloodline to stop Sithis Padomay from ending Mundus.
Yes, I'm a Lore-geek.
I think the stakes aren't high enough yet.

Avilan the Grey

2010-12-14, 03:59 AM

Personally I am less than intrigued; of course the only Elder Scroll game I have played was Oblivion, so I shouldn't judge.

Will they at least use Motion Capture this time instead of animating everything by hand and therefore get really weird results?

Oh and I assume Fallout 4 will use this new engine. THAT is something to be excited about!

Dsurion

2010-12-14, 05:46 AM

I just pray that someone in charge of decision making at Bethesda has put up a giant poster in the game dev office that says "most of our target audience thinks that Morrowind + Graphics Extender (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWW7-wRVy10) is a million times better than Oblivion will ever be".

... so how many of you went back and reinstalled an Elder Scrolls game just now because of this thread? *raises hand*
I've been playing Morrowind for PC since it came out and never stopped. I've beaten the main questline only twice, but that only goes to speak for how amazing the rest of the setting is. I think my favorite part is that even after the ludicrous amount of time I've put into the game, I still don't know where everything is, and I always find something new on every playthrough.

If Bethesda manages to recapture that sense of mysticism I got from the first time I played Morrowind, I will be one elated person. And since Nords and their culture are essentially Vikings/Celtic, I get the feeling this will be a good game, as long as they recapture the feeling of the Lore from Daggerfall and Morrowind that was seemingly lost in Oblivion (And no more stupid bull turds about assuming a Daedra Prince's role :smallyuk:)

As it's been said, Bloodmoon was very well done for what could've been a bland endless expanse of nothingness. I'd also like to echo the sentiment that the world should more or less have fixed level creatures/NPC's/loot with few exceptions. Morrowind handled this well with everything, with basically only Daedra being on your level most of the time (except for those occasional ninjamonkeys!)

Eldan

2010-12-14, 05:52 AM

Somebloke

2010-12-14, 07:24 AM

Ah, Morrowind nostalgia...

Mmmm...

Anyone else remember the first time they accidentally stumbled across a vampire lair? Or when that Kajit mentioned the key to the Redoran vaults and after a massive amount of patience you finally managed to sneak in and loot it for all it was worth. Or abusing the alchemy system to create things like a (near)permanent supersonic flight spell.

Eldan

2010-12-14, 07:27 AM

I never abused alchemy...

But then, I also never joined a house, finished any guild or completed any shrine quest.

Somehow, I still got to level 50 back then.

Good thing I installed it again. So much content I never saw.

pffh

2010-12-14, 07:34 AM

Ah morrowind. I created a house out of coins once, well more of a room but still coins.
Oh and I paved the floor of my house (stole it from the rat lady in Belmora) with coins.

Somebloke

2010-12-14, 07:56 AM

Ah morrowind. I created a house out of coins once, well more of a room but still coins.
Oh and I paved the floor of my house (stole it from the rat lady in Belmora) with coins.

I recall one fellow filling an entire house with pants. Nothing but pants.

I loved the way that game would reward you with little things, like a sunken ship on some distant shore, or a lonely tower with a little story attached to it. And the levelling system was passable once I wrapped my head around it- only a minimum of actual effort needed to maintain the needed skills.

Emperor Ing

2010-12-14, 09:18 AM

Out of curiocity, is The Infernal City worth getting?

Psyren

2010-12-14, 09:21 AM

I also liked Morrowind's story better. When you're standing in
The Cavern of the Incarnate after obtaining Moon-and-Star, listening to the stories of the failed incarnates and realizing that you ARE The Nerevarine
It probably is one of the best feelings that a game has given me.

In Morrowind: You are the Chosen One.
In Oblivion: You're some dude who carries the Chosen One's bags.

Yeah, it kind of irked me too. :smallannoyed:

JediSoth

2010-12-14, 09:24 AM

I wonder if the new engine will choke my fairly new computer the way Oblivion choked new computers of its day?

On the plus side, my new computer can run Oblivion with enhanced graphics mods and ALL the eye-candy set to maximum with no trouble. It's a beautiful thing. One of these days, I'm going to re-installed Morrowind with all the graphical enhancers I can find and make it more beautiful, too (i.e. make the people and things less blocky; the world itself is amazing for the technology).

I didn't find sneaking in Oblivion all that bad; most of my combats were done from a crouch with a bow from far away. Of course, I had an improperly-installed OOO installed; I don't know if that had anything to do with it (I know it helped with my sneak attack critical damage).

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-12-14, 09:48 AM

In Morrowind: You are the Chosen One.
In Oblivion: You're some dude who carries the Chosen One's bags.

Yeah, it kind of irked me too. :smallannoyed:

You're the Dragon's dragon. That's got an honor in and of itself. After all, everyone acknowledges that without you, Martin wouldn't be where he is now.

JediSoth

2010-12-14, 09:56 AM

You're the Dragon's dragon. That's got an honor in and of itself. After all, everyone acknowledges that without you, Martin wouldn't be where he is now.

I Saved Martin Septim and All I Got was This Lousy Suit of Leveled Armor Outclassed by the Deadric Stuff I Took from a Bandit This Morning.

pffh

2010-12-14, 10:07 AM

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-12-14, 10:09 AM

I wouldn't have minded an option after Martins transformation to help decide the future of the empire. Fx Tell the council members something like: "Sit down and shut up, I am the emperor now if anyone has a problem with that I will bring the might of the guilds and the dark brotherhood down on you. Any objections? No good."

True, but then the Shivering Isles opens up and things become much more complicated after that.

"Sit down and shut up, I'm running the Empire now, and if anyone's got a problem with it I assume they're seceding. Or they're terribly confused. OR REALLY LACKING IN GOOD JUDGMENT! CHEESE FOR EVERYONE!!!"

Kislath

2010-12-14, 10:59 AM

Now THAT'S something that irked me. After finishing Shivering Isles, the other Daedra should have had new, different things to say if I visited their shrines. They should have been very mad at me, yes?

Eldan

2010-12-14, 11:00 AM

At least they changed the shrine of Sheogorath. I didn't finish Shivering Isles, sadly (it actually interested me, unlike the main quest), but there's videos online. "Oh my. Am I praying to myself again?"

boj0

2010-12-14, 11:01 AM

I wouldn't have minded an option after Martins transformation to help decide the future of the empire. Fx Tell the council members something like: "Sit down and shut up, I am the emperor now if anyone has a problem with that I will bring the might of the guilds and the dark brotherhood down on you. Any objections? No good."

You need to think bigger darling

True, but then the Shivering Isles opens up and things become much more complicated after that.

"Sit down and shut up, I'm running the Empire now, and if anyone's got a problem with it I assume they're seceding. Or they're terribly confused. OR REALLY LACKING IN GOOD JUDGMENT! CHEESE FOR EVERYONE!!!"

This.
The end of Shivering Isles where you become the freaking Daedric Prince of Madness is more than enough to compensate the lack of Emperor/Empress position.
I WILL SKIP ROPE WITH YOUR INTESTINES! /Sheogorath

fimzo

2010-12-14, 11:50 AM

So will the next Elder Scrolls game have a main quest in which you're the Chosen One's torch-carrier, and an expansion where you're one of the Nine Divines?

Dogmantra

2010-12-14, 12:13 PM

Out of curiocity, is The Infernal City worth getting?

I've not read it, but apparently the guy who wrote it doesn't appear to be a particularly good writer and has only the most basic grasp of Elder Scrolls lore.

Soulsthiem.

HE CALLS IT SOULSTHIEM.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-12-14, 01:43 PM

Actually, he may have a better grasp on the lore than you say.

The whole bit about Morrowind's destruction does not come completely out of left field. In-game texts from Morrowind itself indicate what would happen should the Ministry of Truth start falling again, and claim that should Vivec's protection cease, things would go to hell quickly. Thanks to the Nerevarine, Vivec's protection did cease, whether by being returned to mortality and disappearing, or dying by the Nerevarine's hand.
Sure, Solstheim's name got misspelled. Does this spelling occur multiple times or is the island only mentioned by name once? If the latter is the case, I'm willing to bet it's just a typo. I mean, I don't complain about the myriad spelling mistakes I find in my D&D books.

Eldan

2010-12-14, 03:07 PM

From what I heard, it's apparently quite important to the story. The synopsis I read mentioned the Argonians invaded from Blackmarch, probably mentioned by revenge for a few millennia of slavery, and the Dunmer fled to Solstheim.

Which doesn't seem to make much sense like this, really. Perhaps there's an explanation in the book, but Solstheim as presented in Bloodmoon does not seem able to support a large Dunmer population. After all, Vvardenfell is only one of Morrowind's district, and quite likely not the most densely populated one, but it already has a much larger population than Solstheim on it's own.

VanBuren

2010-12-14, 03:14 PM

In Morrowind: You are the Chosen One.
In Oblivion: You're some dude who carries the Chosen One's bags.

Yeah, it kind of irked me too. :smallannoyed:

Oh hush, you get to become a god. And besides, you know what being a hero got him? Dead, that's what.

Now eat your vegetables and FULFILL THE PROPHECY! RAIN, RAIN BURNING DOGS FROM THE SKY

fimzo

2010-12-14, 03:29 PM

Oh hush, you get to become a god. And besides, you know what being a hero got him? Dead, that's what.

Now eat your vegetables and FULFILL THE PROPHECY! RAIN, RAIN BURNING DOGS FROM THE SKY

Well, you don't become a giant statue in the middle of a major city- wait, actually you have two.

MeatShield#236

2010-12-14, 03:39 PM

Was I the only one who liked not being the chosen one in Oblivion?

Eldan

2010-12-14, 03:49 PM

Honestly, the whole chosen/not chosen thing wasn't what annoyed me about Oblivion. I quit long before I got that far. It was just the whole genericness of the thing. I want more Middle eastern-egyptian-japanese dark elf cultures and less medieval Europe.

Terraoblivion

2010-12-14, 04:06 PM

I'd have been fine with rice-growing Romaztecs living in a lush jungle, filled with the social remnants of ages past. For that matter i would have been fine with something resembling the actual European middle ages for the novelty. Just not generic fantasy-land that thinks it resembles the European middle ages.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-12-14, 05:18 PM

Was I the only one who liked not being the chosen one in Oblivion?

No no, I liked it too. :smallsmile:

pffh

2010-12-14, 05:53 PM

Was I the only one who liked not being the chosen one in Oblivion?

I liked it right up until the point I got a title and a mediocre suit of armor for all my work in saving the world and then told to scoot away while the council does it's thing. Like I've already said it would have been much better if you had at least some say in that.

Ailurus

2010-12-14, 06:24 PM

Was I the only one who liked not being the chosen one in Oblivion?

I mostly liked it. The only real part that frustrated me was - as pffh says - that there was no real say about anything afterwards. Though, that's more the nature of being an open-ended world and happens with any of the quest lines (yay, I'm the archmage! I get ... a nifty magic box. yay, I'm the Grey Fox! I get ... a new guildhall. yay, I'm the champion of the gods! I get ... a suit of armor and someone to follow me around if I want them to)

fimzo

2010-12-14, 06:38 PM

I mostly liked it. The only real part that frustrated me was - as pffh says - that there was no real say about anything afterwards. Though, that's more the nature of being an open-ended world and happens with any of the quest lines (yay, I'm the archmage! I get ... a nifty magic box. yay, I'm the Grey Fox! I get ... a new guildhall. yay, I'm the champion of the gods! I get ... a suit of armor and someone to follow me around if I want them to)

Yay, I'm the Arena champion! I get... the Adoring Fan. :smalleek:

Eldan

2010-12-14, 06:39 PM

There's a youtube video where someone manages to load the adoring fan into Midas' catapult...

I think Morrowind suffered from the "Guild master problem" as well, though. I mean... "Give me that spell for free, don't you know I'm the Archmage!" should at least be an option. Or "Mr. House Redoran person, I'm High Priest of the Temple. Don't you think you could give me a real rank in the house instead of having me do fetch quests?"

pffh

2010-12-14, 06:41 PM

Hah I just used him as prey for my vampire character.

banthesun

2010-12-14, 07:52 PM

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-12-14, 07:56 PM

Ok, I've got a bit of a question about the ending of Oblivion here:Did Martin kill Dagon or just banish him back to Oblivion? If he's not dead, what's stopping him coming right back now that the Septim line and the Amulet of Kings are both gone? Doesn't that mean the world is entirely screwed?Anyway, I found Oblivion to be tons of fun, even unmodded (though I limited myself to no quick travel, which was a huge boost for the imersion). Modded to hell, it's pretty incredible. Whatever they do to Skyrim, I'll be able to have fun as long as it's mod-friendly.

I think the implication is that Martin's sacrifice and the destruction of the amulet and the Septims made the barrier between Tamriel and Oblivion permanent. The reason the Door to the Shivering Isles is allowed to form even after the end of the crisis is because Sheogorath is doing so under a banner of peace, inviting people to visit his realm, rather than hostile portals for an invasion like Mehrunes Dagon's gates are.

fireinakasha

2010-12-14, 08:19 PM

I just had a nice reminder that not everything in this game levels with you...

Started a new character after having finally worked out the mods I wanted to use and got promptly killed by a Tribunal Dark Brotherhood Assassin before even really waking up.

Yay!

Oh, there's a mod for that... Dark Brotherhood Delayer. Now they don't try to assassinate some no-name level 1 character fresh off a prison ship - you have to earn some reputation before the dark brotherhood notices you. I don't know why Bethesda didn't include this function in the expansion proper. Did they really think that people could actually play through more than five levels of any character before they suddenly have some new idea or find some sweet item and totally have to make a whole new character based around it?

Also, if the Ministry of Truth has destroyed Vvardenfell as of the release of Skyrim, then what was the frikkin' point of saving them from the blight in the first place??

Although I can't imagine even a moon doing much damage, falling from so small a height. Unless the magic holding it there has also caused it to retain its inertia from the initial fall, in which case Vivec is an idiot. :smallbiggrin:

Zarah

2010-12-14, 09:00 PM

I think Morrowind suffered from the "Guild master problem" as well, though. I mean... "Give me that spell for free, don't you know I'm the Archmage!" should at least be an option. Or "Mr. House Redoran person, I'm High Priest of the Temple. Don't you think you could give me a real rank in the house instead of having me do fetch quests?"

I actually came up with my own canon to solve this little problem. The Nerevarine never joined any guilds while he was in Vvardenfell. Other people joined the guilds and rose in their ranks, some ultimately helping the Nerevarine on his quest as well. However, they themselves had nothing to do with the prophecy.

I actually planned to do a Let's Play with that format, running 9 characters at once to show everything off and rewrite the story a little more coherently, but between Morrowind no longer running reliably and the utterly insane amount of work that would be, I decided against it.

fimzo

2010-12-14, 10:04 PM

I actually came up with my own canon to solve this little problem. The Nerevarine never joined any guilds while he was in Vvardenfell. Other people joined the guilds and rose in their ranks, some ultimately helping the Nerevarine on his quest as well. However, they themselves had nothing to do with the prophecy.

I actually planned to do a Let's Play with that format, running 9 characters at once to show everything off and rewrite the story a little more coherently, but between Morrowind no longer running reliably and the utterly insane amount of work that would be, I decided against it.

I just got Morrowind working again on my computer, so if I can find a LOT of extra time, I might try to start this. I'd probably simplify it, though.

Dsurion

2010-12-14, 10:16 PM

Oh, there's a mod for that... Dark Brotherhood Delayer. Now they don't try to assassinate some no-name level 1 character fresh off a prison ship - you have to earn some reputation before the dark brotherhood notices you. I don't know why Bethesda didn't include this function in the expansion proper. Did they really think that people could actually play through more than five levels of any character before they suddenly have some new idea or find some sweet item and totally have to make a whole new character based around it?

Also, if the Ministry of Truth has destroyed Vvardenfell as of the release of Skyrim, then what was the frikkin' point of saving them from the blight in the first place??

Although I can't imagine even a moon doing much damage, falling from so small a height. Unless the magic holding it there has also caused it to retain its inertia from the initial fall, in which case Vivec is an idiot. :smallbiggrin:
It certainly isn't the only time that Bethesda invalidated an ending. The Warp in the West is such a giant cop-out it's not even funny. I could've accepted an excuse that there was another Dragon Break or something else. Made playing Daggerfall just as moot. Still a fun game, though.

As to the moon crashing into Vivec...

From the 36 Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 33
Then Vivec left the Litany Hall of the False Thinking Temple, where he had brooded for so long creating the scripture of the pounding light, and went back to the space that was not a space. From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the seventh monster, called Lie Rock.

Lie Rock was born of Vivec's Second Aperture and was thrown out of the Pomegranate Banquet by a member of the Sweeps, another forgotten guild. The Sweep did not take it for the monster that it was and so he did not expect it to fly from his hand and into the heavens.

'I am born of golden wisdom and powers that should have forever been unalike! With this nature I am invited into the Hidden Heaven!'

By which he meant the Scaled Blanket, made of not-stars, whose number is thirteen. Lie Rock became full of foolishness, haggling with the Void Ghost who hides in the religions of all men. The Void Ghost said:

'Stay with me a full hundred years and I will give you a power that no divinity will dare disobey.'

But before the hundred years was up, Vivec was already looking for Lie Rock and found him.

'Stupid stone,' Vivec said. 'To hide in the Scaled Blanket is to make a mark on nothing. His bargains are only for ruling kings!'

So Vivec sent the Hortator to the heavens to shave Lie Rock asunder by the named axe. Nerevar made peace with the south-pole-star of thieving and the north-pole-star of warriors and the third-pole-star, which existed only in the ether, which was governed by the apprentice of Magnus the sun. They gave him leave to wander among their charges and gave him red sight by which to find Lie Rock in the Hidden Heaven.

By chance, Nerevar met the Void Ghost first, who told him that he was in the wrong place to which the Hortator said, 'Me or you?' and the Void Ghost said both. This sermon does not tell what else was said between these masters.

Lie Rock, however, used the confusion to launch his own attack on the city-god, Vivec. He was hastened by all three of the black guardians, who wanted him swiftly gone, though they meant no hostility to the lord of the middle air.

The citizenry of Vivec screamed as they saw a shooting star come down out of the sky hole like a toll-road of hell. But Vivec merely raised his hand and froze Lie Rock just above the city and then he pierced the monster with Muatra.

(The practice of piercing the Second Aperture is now forbidden.)

When Nerevar returned, he saw the frozen comet above his lord's city. He asked whether or not Vivec wanted it removed.

'I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction.'

Nerevar said, 'Love is under your will only.'

Vivec smiled and told the Hortator that he had become a Minister of Truth.

The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.

fimzo

2010-12-14, 10:26 PM

As to the moon crashing into Vivec...

From the 36 Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 33
Then Vivec left the Litany Hall of the False Thinking Temple, where he had brooded for so long creating the scripture of the pounding light, and went back to the space that was not a space. From the Provisional House he looked into the middle world to find the seventh monster, called Lie Rock.

Lie Rock was born of Vivec's Second Aperture and was thrown out of the Pomegranate Banquet by a member of the Sweeps, another forgotten guild. The Sweep did not take it for the monster that it was and so he did not expect it to fly from his hand and into the heavens.

'I am born of golden wisdom and powers that should have forever been unalike! With this nature I am invited into the Hidden Heaven!'

By which he meant the Scaled Blanket, made of not-stars, whose number is thirteen. Lie Rock became full of foolishness, haggling with the Void Ghost who hides in the religions of all men. The Void Ghost said:

'Stay with me a full hundred years and I will give you a power that no divinity will dare disobey.'

But before the hundred years was up, Vivec was already looking for Lie Rock and found him.

'Stupid stone,' Vivec said. 'To hide in the Scaled Blanket is to make a mark on nothing. His bargains are only for ruling kings!'

So Vivec sent the Hortator to the heavens to shave Lie Rock asunder by the named axe. Nerevar made peace with the south-pole-star of thieving and the north-pole-star of warriors and the third-pole-star, which existed only in the ether, which was governed by the apprentice of Magnus the sun. They gave him leave to wander among their charges and gave him red sight by which to find Lie Rock in the Hidden Heaven.

By chance, Nerevar met the Void Ghost first, who told him that he was in the wrong place to which the Hortator said, 'Me or you?' and the Void Ghost said both. This sermon does not tell what else was said between these masters.

Lie Rock, however, used the confusion to launch his own attack on the city-god, Vivec. He was hastened by all three of the black guardians, who wanted him swiftly gone, though they meant no hostility to the lord of the middle air.

The citizenry of Vivec screamed as they saw a shooting star come down out of the sky hole like a toll-road of hell. But Vivec merely raised his hand and froze Lie Rock just above the city and then he pierced the monster with Muatra.

(The practice of piercing the Second Aperture is now forbidden.)

When Nerevar returned, he saw the frozen comet above his lord's city. He asked whether or not Vivec wanted it removed.

'I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction.'

Nerevar said, 'Love is under your will only.'

Vivec smiled and told the Hortator that he had become a Minister of Truth.

The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.

And he didn't realize that he might not have the power to hold it there sometime? He should have at least done something about the moon when the Tribunal were weakened from maintaining the Ghostfence.

Dsurion

2010-12-14, 10:41 PM

And he didn't realize that he might not have the power to hold it there sometime? He should have at least done something about the moon when the Tribunal were weakened from maintaining the Ghostfence.

He does admit he screwed up, after all.

"Why did I cause others to suffer? I respect that question, and you for it. The most I can say is: I did the best I could, as I saw things. Can you, mortal, presume to judge the actions and motives of a god? But, because I need you, and you need me, I will make an accounting for my sins, to you.

Doesn't change the problem that he doomed all of Vvardenfell over his ego.

RPharazon

2010-12-15, 12:33 AM

Did anyone else notice that Sermon 33 is a roundabout tale that focuses on the outcomes (and bans) of "piercing the second aperture"?

Maybe it's just my terrible, terrible mind, but Sermon 33 is a religious condemnation of... well, this is a G-rated board.

Not to mention that Sermon 14 has Vivec and Molag Bal "comparing spears" and learning about "belly-magic".

Someone at Bethesda is an insanely demented writer.

Eldan

2010-12-15, 04:30 AM

:smallbiggrin:

I never noticed that.

So, let's see if I can get through all this...
The third moon hid itself in the Serpent constellation. Sithis (I guess. Or is Void Ghost someone else?) promised it divinity, however, Vivec found it first and sent Nerevar (funny how in this version he's Nerevar's boss) to kill it with an axe. Nerevar met Sithis and was delayed, so the moon, with the help of the Warrior, Thief and Mage constellations (I think that's what's meant by three guardians?) attacked the city of Vivec by falling on it. However, Vivec stopped it.

Hmm. I really need to reread the sermons, now that I actually understand some of the elder scrolls lore.

Leecros

2010-12-15, 12:02 PM

And he didn't realize that he might not have the power to hold it there sometime? He should have at least done something about the moon when the Tribunal were weakened from maintaining the Ghostfence.

I really don't think the Tribunal were thinking when they put up Ghostfence.

It seems like a good idea, it stops the minions of Dagoth Ur from invading vvardenvel, but then you realize that the Tribunal have to make regular pilgrimages to the Heart of Lorkhan or their powers will start to wane. So they just, essentially locked a guy with godlike powers in with the thing that gives him godlike powers and while the Tribunal also have godlike powers if they don't make those regular pilgrimages they start losing the powers and now we have the situation where we were in Morrowind. Dagoth Ur and his minions are becoming more powerful and there's nothing the Tribunal can do about it.

I would rather have seen The Tribunal lock up Dagoth Ur in a cell with the same magic as the Ghostfence. Essentially locking him away from the Heart until he can be killed and allowing The Tribunal access to their power. That would fix everything that happened in Morrowind.

Of course, i'm no Lore Buff....there could be something that i don't know that prevents that.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-12-15, 12:07 PM

I think another reason the Ghostfence was put up was because of the Blight sickness. Without the Ghostfence, the disease could spread unchecked.

Triaxx

2010-12-15, 12:13 PM

Yes, the mighty power of 'we want to make a killing making a game out of it and dumping the player in a world without problems is BORING. We'll save that for the game after.'

Leecros

2010-12-15, 12:22 PM

Yes, the mighty power of 'we want to make a killing making a game out of it and dumping the player in a world without problems is BORING. We'll save that for the game after.'

There was still plenty to do in Morrowind without doing the main quest

boj0

2010-12-15, 12:49 PM

Very true.
3 guilds, 2 cults, Morag Tong, 3 Great Houses, Imperial Legion, 1 (of 3) Vampire Clans, artifact hunting/Daedric Shrines, etc.
Morrowind felt...full. Like it had both its scale and detail, sure it wasn't as vast as Daggerfall, or pretty as Oblivion; but it was an amazing game.
Lol sorry for the nostalgia rant :smallredface:
Woo hoo! Skyrim! I wanna fight trolls and the Uterfrysk again!

Zarah

2010-12-15, 12:50 PM

I really don't think the Tribunal were thinking when they put up Ghostfence.

It seems like a good idea, it stops the minions of Dagoth Ur from invading vvardenvel, but then you realize that the Tribunal have to make regular pilgrimages to the Heart of Lorkhan or their powers will start to wane. So they just, essentially locked a guy with godlike powers in with the thing that gives him godlike powers and while the Tribunal also have godlike powers if they don't make those regular pilgrimages they start losing the powers and now we have the situation where we were in Morrowind. Dagoth Ur and his minions are becoming more powerful and there's nothing the Tribunal can do about it.

I would rather have seen The Tribunal lock up Dagoth Ur in a cell with the same magic as the Ghostfence. Essentially locking him away from the Heart until he can be killed and allowing The Tribunal access to their power. That would fix everything that happened in Morrowind.

Of course, i'm no Lore Buff....there could be something that i don't know that prevents that.

They didn't really have much of a choice when it came to Ghostfence. Dagoth Ur's influence was spreading, as was his Blight disease. The Tribunal tried to fight back and reclaim some of the Dwemer citadels that he had overrun around Red Mountain, but they all ended in disaster. That's how they lost Keening and Sunder. Since they only had one of Kagrenac's tools left, they couldn't afford to screw around anymore. Dagoth Ur was too powerful for them to attack directly, so they threw up the Ghostfence to at least slow him down until they could think of something.

Was it the smartest idea? Probably not, but that's kind of the whole point. The Tribunal always were flawed, right from the start. They were mortals who ascended into godhood through stealing power. It's the same reason why I look at Vivec's little deed of stopping the moon from crushing Vvardenfell as acceptable. Stupid? Absolutely, but at the time, it would never have occurred to him that he would lose his powers. And he probably liked the idea of having a constant reminder of how he saved all these people's asses floating in the sky for everyone to see. Hell, for all we know, Vivec may have had entirely different reasons for it. He's a poet, which is just a fancy name for a liar.

Why yes, I am a Morrowind fanboy, how did you guess?

Arcanoi

2010-12-15, 12:50 PM

Woo hoo! Skyrim! I wanna fight trolls and the Uterfrysk again!

You can do this is Oblivion. :smallbiggrin:

Morty

2010-12-15, 01:25 PM

I have mixed feelings about this new Elder Scrolls game... I know what I want from a TES game, I just don't think they'll do it. Oh, well. We'll see how it develops. The world-shattering changes to Tamriel sound interesting, at least. I just wish they'd give us more political intrigue a la Daggerfall instead of epic struggles with Daedra or something. I miss the plots that didn't involve the end of the world.
As for the chosen one/not chose one thing, I too didn't mind not being the Chosen One or somesuch in Oblivion. It didn't save the story, of course - there's a difference between not being the Chosen One and feeling like a random shmuck.
And finally, this thread is yet another thread that makes me wish I'd had enough patience and dedication to seriosly mod Morrowing. All those mods sound awesome, but I just installed a dozen unintrusive ones...

Dogmantra

2010-12-15, 02:03 PM

They were mortals who ascended into godhood through stealing power.

And then Vehk ascended into double-plus godhood by wanting to. Man I love CHIM.

Jane_Smith

2010-12-15, 02:34 PM

Personally i wish their was a mod for oblivion that put you in martins shoes. Even if it meant dying at the end.

Maeglin_Dubh

2010-12-15, 02:36 PM

Personally i wish their was a mod for oblivion that put you in martins shoes. Even if it meant dying at the end.

There is. It's called Fallout 3.

Leecros

2010-12-15, 03:24 PM

I have to admit though...now whenever someone mentions Dragonborn in D&D i get the almost unstoppable urge to go

Gasp! "DRAGONBORN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Thank you Bethesda....:smallbiggrin:

VanBuren

2010-12-15, 03:42 PM

And so it begins.

So The Big Pixels has a piece (http://www.thebigpixels.com/musings/2010/12/12/i-will-not-play-the-elder-scrolls-v-why-morrowind-is-better.html) that talks about why Skyrim should take after it's older brother Morrowind instead of it's younger older brother Oblivion. Which is kind of what we've been talking about.

Even the little things, like Morrowind's narcotics (skooma, derived from refined moon sugar, is like heroin, especially for the game's cat-like Khajiit race), are crafted with enough loving imagination to make them barely recognizable from a real-world perspective, yet totally compelling. The choices presented to players at every single turn are barely describable, and simply can't be appreciated by anyone who hasn't poured dozens, if not hundreds, of hours into exploring every aspect of the game.

There is barely a single object in the game that can't be picked up, manipulated, sold, dropped, stolen, stored or displayed, and the numbers of available weapons, worn items, spells, skills, and enchantment are infinitely more than what Oblivion offers. The obvious argument is that sometimes, simple is better, but not so in the case of The Elder Scrolls. In Morrowind, you can create a sword that does fire damage, breaks your enemies' weapon and allows you to breathe underwater - or walk on water, or levitate - as long as you're holding it. You can create a staff that makes you invisible while it allows you to pick locks and makes you more persuasive, as well.

And NowGamer makes the case (http://www.nowgamer.com/columns/casual-games/600/why-elder-scrolls-v-shouldnt-be-on-this-generation-of-consoles) that it shouldn't be released until we're on the next-gen of consoles.

The issue isn’t that Skyrim won’t be good. It will be. It’s not even that Skyrim will be buggy. It will be. The issue is that Skyrim doesn’t belong in this generation of consoles. Oblivion blew away everyone’s expectation of what an RPG should be and should accomplish, rewriting the hierarchy of the entire genre overnight. We suddenly expected more from our games, demanded the same level of ambition from our developers and hoped every game we played would accomplish even a fraction of what Oblivion did. Amongst a sea of mediocre launch titles, which promised much but delivered little (we haven’t forgotten, Perfect Dark), Oblivion was king.

That’s why Skyrim’s place at the dying end of 2011 feels wrong. It should be the opening act for a new dawn of consoles, not the one closing the curtains on this. How much can really be accomplished on this technology anyway? Any multiformat release has to consider Xbox 360’s limitations in mind and that technology is creaking. Epic can conjure all sorts of voodoo magic to make Gears of War 3 look good but will it play like a game that feels as though it’s pushing the technology? Doubtful.

Emperor Ing

2010-12-15, 03:44 PM

Not me. Because I recently found RotD, for some bizarre reason I immediately think of the Spellscale Hive-Mind when "dragonborn" is mentioned. :smallsigh:

What I see happening is that we're gonna see a lot of what was improved upon from Oblivion to Fallout 3 implemented into Skyrim. Hopefully this time they'll be more devoted to coming up with a good plot. Furthermore, forget trying to get a Teen rating, Oblivion is now rated M simply because you can download...unique mods. Expect the exact same thing to happen in Skyrim unless they use a completely new game engine which I highly doubt.

Eldan

2010-12-15, 03:59 PM

boj0

2010-12-15, 04:09 PM

It was Elder Scrolls...with physics!
Sir Issac Newton was a Breton with 100 Intelligence who forced the world around him to conform to a better set of actions/reactions

Psyren

2010-12-15, 04:11 PM

It was Elder Scrolls...with physics!

And Patrick Stewart! :smalltongue:
(for a little while)

Eldan

2010-12-15, 04:13 PM

Ah, right. Was Star Voice acting a new thing back then?

And right. I remember when I was totally excited when I could shoot an arrow at a bucket and it moved.

VanBuren

2010-12-15, 04:27 PM

Ah, right. Was Star Voice acting a new thing back then?

And right. I remember when I was totally excited when I could shoot an arrow at a bucket and it moved.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but I was excited for it.

Morty

2010-12-15, 05:49 PM

Did Oblivion really push the envelope in anything other than looking shiny (not pretty, shiny)? I mean, they talk about it as a great, brand new, innovative game, and somehow, it never seemed like that to me.

Same here. Oblivion was advertised the RPG equivalend of pre-sliced bread, but the reality didn't really live up to it.
Also, what is is about the PC in Skyrim being a "dragonborn"? It sounds bad, but I can't actually watch the trailers where I'm right now so I can't find out for myself.

pffh

2010-12-15, 05:53 PM

Eldan

2010-12-15, 05:56 PM

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but I was excited for it.

I was. I totally spent several minutes hitting the shackles in my cell with my fists and kicking skulls around. I was totally ecstatic when I came to a trap that let me drop logs on goblins.

Ailurus

2010-12-15, 05:56 PM

Same here. Oblivion was advertised the RPG equivalend of pre-sliced bread, but the reality didn't really live up to it.
Also, what is is about the PC in Skyrim being a "dragonborn"? It sounds bad, but I can't actually watch the trailers where I'm right now so I can't find out for myself.

Short version which does not do the trailer justice at all: sounds like Skyrim will be in civil war, and then a bunch of dragons are going to wake up to make things even worse. But there is prophesied to be someone the dragons fear who they have named 'dragonborn'

fireinakasha

2010-12-15, 05:58 PM

Well there are dragons and they fear only the dragonborn that's about all we know.

I am convinced that Bethesda is just trying to cash in on the psychological programing (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/8/6/) already put in place by Wizards of the Coast.

fimzo

2010-12-15, 06:21 PM

I was. I totally spent several minutes hitting the shackles in my cell with my fists and kicking skulls around. I was totally ecstatic when I came to a trap that let me drop logs on goblins.

I did just this. Then I found that you can equip a weapon, pick up an item (with "z" on a PC), and drop the item just as you swing the weapon. And paint brushes!

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-12-15, 06:22 PM

Short version which does not do the trailer justice at all: sounds like Skyrim will be in civil war, and then a bunch of dragons are going to wake up to make things even worse. But there is prophesied to be someone the dragons fear who they have named 'dragonborn'

And said dragonborn is not some human-reptile hybrid (unless the player decides to be an Argonian, of course :smalltongue: ), but rather some heroic figure.

I couldn't tell in the trailer, was that the thing in front of the Dohvakiin his beard or was he breathing fire?

pffh

2010-12-15, 06:23 PM

Firebeard? Beard-Fire? Beard on fire? The possibilites are endless!

fireinakasha

2010-12-15, 06:25 PM

Firebeard? Beard-Fire? Beard on fire? The possibilites are endless!

None of the above! They are tentacles. Dhovakiin is a mindflayer.

Sorry if I spoiled the surprise for anyone.... :smallbiggrin:

Eldan

2010-12-15, 06:27 PM

I just realized that they'll release the sequel to Oblivion on St. Martin's day. Clever move, Bethesda :smallamused:

Listening to the trailer again...

"Their defeat was merely a delay..."

Were dragons ever defeated in the lore? I know that there was a dragon war on Akavir, but on Tamriel?

Also, it says:
"There is one they fear. In their tongue, he is Dovakhiin. Dragonborn."

Nothing of Fire Beard.

Edit: Ah, sorry. Not said. Yeah, his beard seems on fire.

Khosan

2010-12-15, 06:46 PM

I was. I totally spent several minutes hitting the shackles in my cell with my fists and kicking skulls around. I was totally ecstatic when I came to a trap that let me drop logs on goblins.

And then stuff like the log trap barely ever came up again.

Maybe it's because I played Half Life 2 and Portal first (I bought Oblivion when it was on sale on Steam for $8 not too long ago), but I wasn't particularly thrilled by the physics.

Come to think of it, you know what would've been a fun set of spells? Gravity spells. Negate gravity on a target! Watch them flail around wildly and then glide past you toward that conveniently placed cliff.

Suedars

2010-12-15, 07:02 PM

And then stuff like the log trap barely ever came up again.

Maybe it's because I played Half Life 2 and Portal first (I bought Oblivion when it was on sale on Steam for $8 not too long ago), but I wasn't particularly thrilled by the physics.

Oblivion's physics were especially unimpressive since friction apparently didn't exist and every collision was elastic.

Come to think of it, you know what would've been a fun set of spells? Gravity spells. Negate gravity on a target! Watch them flail around wildly and then glide past you toward that conveniently placed cliff.

I forget how it worked, but I remember there being a way to custom make a spell in Morrowind that would cause Cliff Racers plummet out of the sky to instant death. It was even cheap enough that you could give it a huge radius without having it cost too much magicka.

Eldan

2010-12-15, 07:03 PM

Midas' Magic had push spells. Those were pretty sweet. Still totally weird ragdolls and frictionless physics, but cool.

VanBuren

2010-12-15, 07:06 PM

Come to think of it, you know what would've been a fun set of spells? Gravity spells. Negate gravity on a target! Watch them flail around wildly and then glide past you toward that conveniently placed cliff.

You could remove gravity, sending a target flying into the air and crash back down to earth when it ended.

You could increase it, pulling down flying creatures into the earth below...

Tell me there's a mod for this. Please, is there a mod for this?

Eldan

2010-12-15, 07:08 PM

Suggest it to the Midas guy for his next update, if he hasn't done it already? I know he has flight spells, and spells that push creatures.

fireinakasha

2010-12-15, 07:13 PM

I forget how it worked, but I remember there being a way to custom make a spell in Morrowind that would cause Cliff Racers plummet out of the sky to instant death. It was even cheap enough that you could give it a huge radius without having it cost too much magicka.

That spell was called "fly on target." Thanks to the wonky non-physics of Morrowind, a creature that is marked as flying that then gains magical flying... loses all flight ability?

Actually, "fly on target" is one of the most powerful spells in the game, because the fly speed also replaces the normal speed of the character. Therefore, "fly 1 point on target for 4 minutes" (which is very cheap), would reduce the target to the slowest possible speed for like forever. Edit: and since it's not marked as an offensive effect in the engine, magicka resistance doesn't apply!

nooblade

2010-12-15, 07:27 PM

I'm as much of a Morrowind fanboy as anyone, but I didn't think that the worldbuilding created anything hugely different from your generic medieval stuff. Your Morag Tong assassins replace the functions of honor among knights, jousting or competitions like that, except more lethally and closer to everyday life... And in a form easier to implement in a game. Feudalist organization is somewhat present among the great houses, with the great exception being that anyone of skill can rise through them and reach the top. Except that you can't do anything when you do reach the top, even when you become Nerevarine, the game already decides that you're going to be a relatively mellow, minor character and accept only a temporary position of power or never change anything.

This is why I like the idea behind Oblivion's style (although I haven't actually played it, maybe it's more of a 'feel' thing). You never reach that position of power, there's no reason for anyone to treat you like anything but a really awesome servant. There's something about the way that you interact with the world that keeps you from the top. And in these CRPG games, there's not enough technology for it anyway. Morrowind already had such a subversive feel anyway, you might as well not pretend that you're working in a free society.

Medieval stuff doesn't get much credit. Oblivion designers should've tried a serious Arthurian roleplaying game, I'm thinking Pendragon, before getting more inconsistent play mixed in.

Hehe. Skyrim could totally be that old island. Except, more land-y.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-12-15, 08:35 PM

I get the feeling Skyrim'd be more "Beowulf," "Nibelungen," or "Eddas" than "Arthurian."

Kislath

2010-12-15, 09:44 PM

My guess is that the very name of Dragonborn gives us a huge clue about a possible major plot point of the main quest of Skyrim.

If Skyrim really turns out to be a direct sequel to oblivion, then that means we'll be looking at an empire crumbling without an emperor. My guess is that the player character will be of the royal blood, even if not a son of Uriel Septim.
Tiber Septim's origin is a bit fuzzy, with it being unclear whether he came from Atmora or Skyrim. My guess is that either is ok, as long as there is a splinter line living in Skyrim today.
I further guess that the big boss dragon of Akavir decides that now is the perfect time to strike, what with the emperor being dead, and that he sends a command to all the sleeping dragons of skyrim to awaken and start wreaking havoc in an effort to soften up the imperial forces. My guess is that he never expected to face another dragonborn.
Meanwhile, the crumbing empire needs a new emperor, preferably of the Septim line, and it would be great if he could prove his worth before taking the throne. Saving Skyrim would be a pretty good way to do that.

Dsurion

2010-12-15, 09:48 PM

sounds like Skyrim will be in civil war

Skyrim being in a state of civil war is about as surprising as England warring with France in the middle ages :smalltongue:

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-12-15, 10:08 PM

Dsurion

2010-12-15, 10:32 PM

I thought those vampire snake people ate all of Akavir's dragons.

As far as Mysterious Akavir is concerned,

Ka Po' Tun is the "Tiger-Dragon's Empire". The cat-folk here are ruled by the divine Tosh Raka, the Tiger-Dragon. They are now a very great empire, stronger than Tsaesci (though not at sea). After the Serpent-Folk ate all the Men, they tried to eat all the Dragons. They managed to enslave the Red Dragons, but the black ones had fled to (then) Po Tun. A great war was raged, which left both the cats and the snakes weak, and the Dragons all dead. Since that time the cat-folk have tried to become the Dragons. Tosh Raka is the first to succeed. He is the largest Dragon in the world, orange and black, and he has very many new ideas.

Other than that, I think you're correct.

Kislath

2010-12-15, 11:35 PM

Hmmm... so is Tosh Raka a dragon or some sort of cat-man? Is "dragon" to be taken literally, or is it only a title? ( Or is tiger-dragon a wholly new species of reptilian feline? )

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-12-15, 11:38 PM

I thought "tiger" was just a nickname for guar given them by Tiber Septim in the Elder Scrolls 'verse.

Eldan

2010-12-16, 04:32 AM

I actually thought of them as a kind of Rakshasa. The name Tosh Raka just reminded me of that.

The problem about Akavir is that there is very little actual fluff about it, and most of that is vague. We have the Akaviri potentates of ancient times, a few battles long ago and a handful of explorers now and then. All the in-game books are rather vague, and no one really knows what is meant by "Tiger" or "Dragon".

In any case, it seems that the imperium and Akavir actually have the same banner... http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Akavir

Anyway, since all Men (with the exception of the Redguard) came from Skyrim originally, I'd guess this game would eventually see the rise of a new imperial line.

Edit:
Notable:

Talos, Tiber Septim, the Dragonborn

Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, Talos is the most important hero-god of Mankind. He conquered all of Tamriel and ushered in the Third Era (and the Third Empire). Also called Ysmir, 'Dragon of the North'. One of the Nine Divines, the major gods of Tamriel. Less prominent sects, such as the Talos Cult have been inspired by his apotheosis.

* Note, the name "Talos" is taken from Greek mythology, wherein Talos was a giant bronze automaton given to Europa by Zeus. This is fitting, as the Emperor used the divine golem Numidium to conquer the Aldmeri Dominion.

And another edit:
If it is set in Skyrim, I want to be able to learn how to use Thu'um, the Voice. (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thu%27um)

Kislath

2010-12-16, 06:16 AM

I was wondering about that one myself. The Voice always struck me as a bit far-out, and I wonder if they'll actually put it in the game. Would Nord player characters get this new ability, or just some NPCs?

Eldan

2010-12-16, 06:25 AM

Well, if they are building on the legend of Talos the Dragonborn, then the new Dragonborn should have the voice. Tiber Septim was famous for his voice's ability to level fortifications, before he had his voice cut.

On the other hand, it's mentioned in the wiki article that he built a voice school in the Imperial City, and we never saw it there, either.

But the Greybeards seem such an important part of Nord mythology, they just have to be in.

pffh

2010-12-16, 06:28 AM

So it's a shouting match you want? :smalltongue:

Eldan

2010-12-16, 06:30 AM

Divayth Fyr

2010-12-16, 06:59 AM

On the other hand, it's mentioned in the wiki article that he built a voice school in the Imperial City, and we never saw it there, either.

He founded it in Markath (Skyrim), not in the IC. Although the same text that mentioned the school suggests that most (if not all) people there were frauds.

And while I'd like to see the Thu'um in the game, I'm not fond of the idea of giving it to the PC - it is supposed to be a nordic ability, not something available to Argonians or Orcs. And imposing a racial limitation will lead to so many complaints it's not worth it...

Dsurion

2010-12-16, 07:06 AM

Dude. Read some of the legends. Those aren't just shouting matches. They cause earthquakes with their voices.

Yes, I want shouting matches. I want them so much.

"And they earth shook when they spoke Talos' name."

So if anyone were to become the new Dragonborn, I want to see some earthquakes when the greybeards name him.

This. All of this. I always thought it would've been really cool for Nords to have a lesser version of Thu'um that at least caused mass Demoralize. It would've made more sense lorewise than that Thunder Fist/Nordic Frost power.

I have to admit though, I am most interested in seeing the kingdom of Solitude, if for no reason other than the amount of lore surrounding Pelagius the Mad and Potema. In fact, her returning as a lich would make an awesome plot if it wasn't as disappointing as Mannimarco was in Oblivion. Seriously, that was extremely disappointing. In lore, he was described as taking countless people to topple, and raising them in battle against Galerion, and I had him dead in under a minute.

Eldan

2010-12-16, 07:08 AM

Actually, the fan version is that he might not be the same Mannimarco, King of Worms as in Daggerfall and the Lore, but just some necromantic upstart who took the name.

There's also the Mannimarco Revisited mod, which at least looks cool. Haven't tried it.

Dogmantra

2010-12-16, 07:14 AM

Actually, the fan version is that he might not be the same Mannimarco, King of Worms as in Daggerfall and the Lore, but just some necromantic upstart who took the name.

Remember this is TES we're talking about. He was probably the real Mannimarco pretending to be a necromantic upstart pretending to be Mannimarco except then you find out that it was all because of a Dragon Break and he's not really Mannimarco at all but he's secretly Vehk. In fact, everyone is secretly Vehk except Vivec himself who is actually Crassius Curio.

pffh

2010-12-16, 07:19 AM

And it was all a dream and you're still sleeping on that prison barge back in Vvardenfell.

Eldan

2010-12-16, 07:21 AM

You forgot that the Dragons are actually disguised Daedra princes and that Crassius Curio is a Simulacrum built by Sithis.

Edit: I just found a bit of lore I never saw before:

Jiub is the first person you see in the game [Morrowind], a male Dunmer, and a fellow prisoner on the ship where you wake up. After your initial introduction, you will never see him again. However, he is later referred to as "Saint Jiub" in Oblivion, as the mysterious hero who somehow drove all the Cliff Racers from Vvardenfell. It is also mentioned that he was killed by the Daedra during the Oblivion crisis.

Apparently, everyone hates cliff racers.

Dogmantra

2010-12-16, 07:24 AM

And it was all a dream and you're still sleeping on that prison barge back in Vvardenfell.

"Wake up. You were dreaming. What's your name? Well, not even last night's storm could wake you. I heard them say we've reached Morrowind. I'm sure they'll let us go. Quiet. Here comes the guard."
"This is where you get off. Come with me... Get yourself up on deck and let's keep this as civil as possible."
"This is where they want you, head down to the dock and he'll show you to the census office."
"You've finally arrived, but our records don't show from w-"
"ake up. You were dreaming. What's your name?"

Eldan

2010-12-16, 07:27 AM

So, can we play the next game backwards?

EleventhHour

2010-12-16, 10:34 AM

"ake up. You were dreaming. What's your name?"

"GAH! What happened to your face?!"
~ The Great Nerevine Gahwhathappenedtoyourface

pffh

2010-12-16, 10:38 AM

"GAH! What happened to your face?!"
~ The Great Nerevine Gahwhathappenedtoyourface

Or "Why aren't you wearing a shirt? Were you watching me sleep?"

Because really WHY ISN'T HE WEARING A SHIRT, you're wearing one and IIRC there were several low quality shirts in various barrels and what not in the ship.

Leecros

2010-12-16, 11:07 AM

Apparently, everyone hates cliff racers.

well yeah, everyone hates cliff racers.

Because really WHY ISN'T HE WEARING A SHIRT, you're wearing one and IIRC there were several low quality shirts in various barrels and what not in the ship.

he likes to feel the wind on his manly chest?

Kris Strife

2010-12-16, 11:50 AM

He's an elf. They don't have manly chests. :smalltongue:

Penguinizer

2010-12-16, 12:40 PM

They killed off Cliff Racers?

I am thankful.

Triaxx

2010-12-16, 01:04 PM

I suspect he simply wandered around with his shirt off and they all went sterile from horror.

Androgeus

2010-12-16, 02:40 PM

In fact, everyone is secretly Vehk except Vivec himself who is actually Crassius Curio.

So that's why he kept wanting me to call him Uncle Vivec

Dogmantra

2010-12-16, 02:58 PM

So that's why he kept wanting me to call him Uncle Vivec

Morrowind plot read at your own peril
It's also why he didn't give you Wraithguard until you took off your shirt.

pffh

2010-12-16, 03:00 PM

Morrowind plot read at your own peril
It's also why he didn't give you Wraithguard until you took off your shirt.

Just your shirt? I had to strip all the way down :smalleek:

boj0

2010-12-16, 03:37 PM

Emperor: "Can you show me on the doll where the false god touched you?"

Neraverine: "Here..." *Points*

Sheogorath: "Right in the Spear of Bitter Mercy, eh?"

Leecros

2010-12-16, 04:08 PM

Sheogorath: "Right in the Spear of Bitter Mercy, eh?"

Sheograth: "HA! More like the Fork of Horripilation"

Triaxx

2010-12-16, 07:18 PM

Nevarine: No, he used that on the second aperture.

VanBuren

2010-12-17, 04:36 PM

So Bethesda hasn't actually given anything of substance, so these two previews are going to be a little light.

OXM (http://www.oxm.co.uk/article.php?id=24576) made a list of what they want in game.

As great as Oblivion is, Morrowind will always remain close to our heart as the best of the Elder Scrolls series. That theme tune, for starters. Perhaps it's nostalgia talking, but it's one of the grandest pieces of videogame music ever composed and the game hasn't even begun when you hear it. We can expect a remixed version to be present in Skyrim but will it hit all the right notes, or fall a bit flat as Oblivion's version did?

Morrowind's world also felt a bit more alive than Oblivion's did. Stepping off a boat into that small fishing village is certainly a less action packed opening than escaping a castle prison, but it lent itself far more to the more mysterious atmosphere of the game. Morrowind's environment felt far more imposing and alien from the outset than Oblivion's immediately lush green fields.

And Cheat Code Central (http://cheatcc.com/xbox360/rev/elderscrolls5skyrimpreview.html) basically sums up everything we already knew.

Although Bethesda won't be revealing anything more about the game until early next year, this majestic cinematic suggests a number of directions the fifth Elder Scrolls title could conceivably go. Most obviously, the mention of the Skyrim (as well as the announcement by Bethesda's Todd Howard on last week's VGA Awards) implies that core to the story will be the arctic, viking-like region of the Nords. This rich, mountainous land could provide ample opportunities for amazing adventuring as well as the possibility of throwing back a few tankards of Nordic Whiskey at a local tavern. We might find ourselves employed by Jsashe, the Witch Queen of Whiterun, or the nobility of the rival cities of Solitude and Winterhold. We might be advancing our studies among scholars at the Ysmir Collective or be called upon by settlements to fend off marauding frost trolls. And that's just what we might be doing in our off time. As far as the main storyline goes, if the trailer is any indication, it looks like the Oblivion Crisis may not be as over as we'd hoped it to be.

Regardless of what happens in the story though, what it seems we can expect from Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim are better graphics (fingers crossed for better looking character models!) as Bethesda's indicated that we'll see an upgrade from the company's Gamebroy engine, the engine used previously for both Oblivion and Fallout 3. Community manager Nick Breckton recently supported that assertion on Twitter by briefly mentioning a complete technical overhaul."It's a new graphics/gameplay engine built internally. We'll have more details down the road." Todd Howard, Game Director of Skyrim added to that in the company's official press release saying, "It's exciting finally to announce the game. We've been working for many years on Skyrim and the technology behind it. A new Elder Scrolls game has been a long time coming, and we can't wait to show it off."

Emperor Ing

2010-12-17, 04:45 PM

<new game engine!>

Hopefully, NPCs will stop staring into my soul. >_<

Zarah

2010-12-17, 10:08 PM

We can expect a remixed version to be present in Skyrim but will it hit all the right notes, or fall a bit flat as Oblivion's version did?

They didn't do their homework.

A remixed version of Morrowind's theme does exist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPEEp5R_pOo). It's a bonus track on the official soundtrack, and was originally created to be part of Oblivion. However, it was left on the cutting room floor, so they stuck it on the old game's soundtrack.

And did they not hear the version of the theme that was playing in Skyrim's teaser trailer? It sounds pretty fantastic as it is.

Avaris

2010-12-18, 06:37 AM

On the subject of themes, anyone know if these are the actual words of the skyrim theme or just wild speculation?

For the King!

For the King!

For the sake of Skyrim!

For our lifes for our home!

For Hrothgar's blood!

For the Nords and for the Gods!

For the sole single son!

Dovakiin, our King, who will dawn in fire!

If they are the lyrics... awesome. Crucially, a king of skyrim suggests that the empire may be crumbling back into its constituent realms, something which has been hinted at since Morrowind if not before.

Divayth Fyr

2010-12-18, 07:41 AM

Speculation - the official version will most likely be released with the february issue of Game Informer.

Also, the king means nothing - Morrowind had a king while being an imperial province, and the same is true for other provinces as well (a king of Skyrim as the ruler of the province was mentioned in the Pocket Guide to the Empire (Ied).)

Eldan

2010-12-18, 01:42 PM

On the subject of themes, anyone know if these are the actual words of the skyrim theme or just wild speculation?

If they are the lyrics... awesome. Crucially, a king of skyrim suggests that the empire may be crumbling back into its constituent realms, something which has been hinted at since Morrowind if not before.

I thought they were chanting "Dovakiin, Dovakiin", not "For the King", but then, I couldn't really make out any words.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-12-18, 06:58 PM

I thought they were chanting "Dovakiin, Dovakiin", not "For the King", but then, I couldn't really make out any words.

I thought that as well.

Eldan

2010-12-18, 07:06 PM

I've listened to it again, and apart from Dovakiin/for the king, I agree with most of the text. Before, I couldn't make out any words, but that was mostly because I just took it for a fantasy language and didn't try to..

However, the last line really doesn't sound like "will dawn in fire".

Avaris

2010-12-18, 07:31 PM

"Dovakiin!" seems far more likely than "For the King!", cept it then doesn't quite flow with "For the sake of Skyrim!". Guess we'll have to wait till they tell us.

Probably worth mentioning this isn't my interpretation... I thought it was a made up language as well, but found the above words in the comment thread on youtube.

fimzo

2010-12-18, 07:42 PM

I thought it was just a fictional language, as well. The theme sounds great.

VanBuren

2011-01-02, 05:54 AM

PCGamer has a list of 15 things they'd like to see in Skyrim. (http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/12/30/15-things-we-want-to-see-in-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/) These two stick out pretty good.

2. Content that doesn’t scale

We need to feel like leveling up makes us more powerful. If the whole world levels up with us, that sense is lost. It also makes the game world too even: nowhere is particularly dangerous in Oblivion because everything is so politely level-appropriate. Morrowind had some level-scaling, but enough fixed danger to feel wild, and enough genuine progression to be compulsive.

...

10. A proper PC interface

Come on, nerdy stats and inventory lists are what the PC was made for. Let us at ‘em. Oblivion’s interface is capable of listing between THREE and SIX items at a time before you have to scroll. Same goes for the map – if Bethesda have any idea how important a really good map can be to the sense of being in a fantasy world, the size of the damn thing in Oblivion didn’t show it. These aren’t huge issues, but look: modders fixed them in a day or two. If you seriously don’t have anyone who can do that before release, hire those modders.

I know every cross-platform developer loves to say “All three versions are identical,” to wash their hands of the platform wars, but guys: they’re not. One of them is played with a mouse and keyboard from two feet away. Notice this.

Dogmantra

2011-01-02, 06:07 AM

Reading that article, another thing I agree with is that the schools of magic are quite ill-defined. Don't get me wrong, it's quite easy to pick an effect and say where it should go, but that's more working from a precedent than actually having a well-defined category. I say bringing back Thaumaturgy (this would have the nice side-effect of bringing back Divine Intervention, Mark and Recall as well) would help my favourite school of magic (Mysticism) to become actually sort of well defined.

I'd also like to see the Fatigue bar split into two bars. One more like Morrowind's, that drains (or in my idea fills because that's what fatigue means) over a long term, but this also reverses slowly. Then one like Oblivion's that deals with the short term. Both would have negative effects when low but they'd strike a balance and hopefully not lead to the "Fatigue means too much"/"Fatigue has no effect" arguments about Morrowind and Oblivion respectively.

Oh, and I can lend them my time machine so they can go and fetch Jeremy Soule from the same time as when he composed the Total Annihilation score rather than the Oblivion one.

Triaxx

2011-01-02, 06:51 AM

Fatigue and stamina bars. Stamina is for fighting and Fatigue is for running from fight to fight. Of course Fatigue should slowly drain all the time unless you're not sitting, where it recovers ever so slowly, but be refreshed when you sleep. Stamina recovers quickly on it's own if you stop doing anything more strenuous than running.

And I'd like to see some more interesting spells. Longer rituals that take time, but produce a more pronounced result. Like a summon that lasts for more than two minutes. Or if you do it in a certain place while under certain effects, you gain an extrodinary ability.

Werewolfs.

Oh, and if I can see a lever, but can't reach it, I should be able to use Telekinesis on it. Don't call it a sand box and then push me into one path anyway.

fireinakasha

2011-01-02, 07:02 AM

PCGamer has a list of 15 things they'd like to see in Skyrim. (http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/12/30/15-things-we-want-to-see-in-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/)

I agreed with everything on that list so hard that it hurt a little bit.

warty goblin

2011-01-02, 01:44 PM

Fatigue and stamina bars. Stamina is for fighting and Fatigue is for running from fight to fight. Of course Fatigue should slowly drain all the time unless you're not sitting, where it recovers ever so slowly, but be refreshed when you sleep. Stamina recovers quickly on it's own if you stop doing anything more strenuous than running.

I'm not sure I understand the logic of this. It seems to be saying that fighting tires you differently than running?

I mean sure this is true in some capacity, but a shared stamina bar is hardly a bad model. It makes running an actual decision with trade-offs instead of a default action, and keeps things nice and simple.

Nosferocktu

2011-01-02, 08:31 PM

Oh, and if I can see a lever, but can't reach it, I should be able to use Telekinesis on it. Don't call it a sand box and then push me into one path anyway.

True. That would definatly be a nice addition for anyone playing a magic user.

Psyren

2011-01-02, 09:12 PM

PCGamer has a list of 15 things they'd like to see in Skyrim. (http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/12/30/15-things-we-want-to-see-in-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/) These two stick out pretty good.

Excellent list, but they forgot a big one:

Please let us customize gear/spells without fetching dentures for every one-horse village on the map just so we can be admitted to Hogwarts.

Was the Enchant skill that bad? Why does my Orc Barbarian have to wear a dress just to get decent weapons and armor? Why is there only one place in the world where I can invent a fireball whose functionality lies somewhere between "singe target hem" and "apocalypse ball that you'll never have enough Magicka to use?" And after I finally got around to crafting the "Bound Everything" spell I actually wanted, is it too much to ask to dump all the component "Bound X" spells I used to make it, and will never individually cast again in my wizardly career?

Darklord Bright

2011-01-02, 09:20 PM

Now, while neither my Morrowind nor my Oblivion work anymore (oblivion doesn't start up even after a full reinstall, and morrowind gives me sound errors about the title music I can't fix with my model of a computer) I'm still pretty happy there'll be a new game.

I enjoyed Oblivion more than Morrowind, personally, but that's more because Oblivion's engine was much more stomachable than Morrowind's. Swinging an axe through a man's face and being told I missed is really, really dumb. The story and culture were more fleshed out in Morrowind though (even if you had to often read sudden text infodumps to learn it - a process that always felt to me like reading through the help menus on Microsoft Word) But in the end I think my only real problem with Morrowind was that it was a good idea executed a little too clunkily.

Which is why I genuinely hope they try it again with Skyrim, only with a more advanced, modern engine. If the attention to detail returns to the level it was in Morrowind, but with the fun gameplay of Oblivion, I'm sure I'll really enjoy Skyrim.

Now if only I could get either of those games to work...

Eldan

2011-01-03, 03:42 AM

There's one thing I don't agree with on that list: changing magic schools. The schools work with the lore, and I like the lore. Don't change the lore, expand it.

Psyren

2011-01-03, 10:01 AM

Morrowind did the right thing in collapsing a lot of the Daggerfall skills. Separate "Backstab" "Stealth" and "Pickpocket" was excessive - rolling them all into "Sneak" streamlined the system. And I honestly don't see a big enough distinction between "Mysticism" and "Thaumaturgy" to justify bringing back the latter. They both might as well be "Other."

Oblivion went too far though, outright dumping skills with no explanation and then arbitrarily reassigning orphaned relatives of those skills. (How on earth is an axe a blunt weapon? What happened to spears?)

As an aside, what's the article's problem with "Alteration?" It's just a different way of saying "Transmutation" really.

Dogmantra

2011-01-03, 10:08 AM

As an aside, what's the article's problem with "Alteration?" It's just a different way of saying "Transmutation" really.

I think its problem is that it seems weird how, say, Fortify Acrobatics (which makes you jump really high) is Restoration, yet Jump (which also makes you jump really high) is Alteration, and how Levitate could easily fit into Alteration or Mysticism. But this debate is partly why I wanted a game in Summurset: who the frig is going to argue with a Psijic on these matters? :smalltongue:

warty goblin

2011-01-03, 10:18 AM

Oblivion went too far though, outright dumping skills with no explanation and then arbitrarily reassigning orphaned relatives of those skills. (How on earth is an axe a blunt weapon? What happened to spears?)

If one wants to get technical about it, one uses an axe far more like a mace or hammer than a sword. It's no more illogical than considering chainmail and leather armor to be in some way the same thing.

Psyren

2011-01-03, 10:50 AM

I think its problem is that it seems weird how, say, Fortify Acrobatics (which makes you jump really high) is Restoration, yet Jump (which also makes you jump really high) is Alteration, and how Levitate could easily fit into Alteration or Mysticism. But this debate is partly why I wanted a game in Summurset: who the frig is going to argue with a Psijic on these matters? :smalltongue:

I honestly don't see a problem with a little magical redundancy; there should be more than one way to skin a cat.

What I do think is that some schools should be more efficient at it. Jump is a narrower effect than "Fortify Acrobatics" because only the latter also makes falling safer. Therefore, while they both have the same result, the Restoration way should cost more for an equal potency/duration. I haven't poked around in the Oblivion code to see if this is the case or not.

This should be even more pronounced with "Fortify [Attribute]" - "Fortify Personality" should be more expensive than "Fortify Speechcraft" which should in turn be more expensive than "Charm" as you are again going from broader to narrower applications in succession.

If one wants to get technical about it, one uses an axe far more like a mace or hammer than a sword. It's no more illogical than considering chainmail and leather armor to be in some way the same thing.

But the bladed edge comes into play at some point, unless you're whacking away with the flat or the haft. This is why Axes as their own skill made sense.

Chainmail was Medium in Morrowind; I already argued that they never should have gotten rid of that armor class. (I think "Unarmored" should have stayed as well.)

Kris Strife

2011-01-03, 11:12 AM

They need to get whoever did Midas Magic to do the magic system for the new game. Something other than differently colored balls and glowing hands for each spell please. :smallyuk: Plus I want flying.

I didn't even play the previous games and I was wondering why axes were blunt weapons and why you couldn't use a spear.

warty goblin

2011-01-03, 11:13 AM

But the bladed edge comes into play at some point, unless you're whacking away with the flat or the haft. This is why Axes as their own skill made sense.

Right, but with a sword you cut by drawing the edge as it contacts your target's flesh. For optimum effect you've got to slice, because of the way a sword is balanced it doesn't do very well at hacking.

In my admittedly limited experience, this is not how one proceeds with an axe. Because the balance point is much closer to the blade, an axe actually does hack quite well. Certainly against an enemy in armor one employs an axe to crush, not to cut.

It's not the most reasonable thing in the cosmos, but it's no worse than making one's skill with a dagger equivalent to one's skill with a claymore. Those are far more different in application than an axe is from a mace, yet nobody ever complains about that.

Ailurus

2011-01-03, 11:35 AM

Plus I want flying.

Well, removal of flying was an engine decision. Since all the cities and such were designed in their own special 'cells' which could only be entered by the gates flying into them was disturbing at best. I know there were mods which changed that (such as open cities I believe it was called?) but if you ever went into a city with a flying mod, an insanely boosted acrobatics skill or even the 'tfc' command you get a half built ghost town.

Since Skyrim is confirmed to be on a new engine, though, maybe they'll design it so flying is allowed.

Triaxx

2011-01-03, 11:42 AM

Kris Strife

2011-01-03, 11:57 AM

Oh, I forgot one: Having more than one enchantment per custom item.

Crow

2011-01-03, 01:28 PM

@warty: The reasoning behind two separate bars is because they make sense. Sprint a mile. You're tired, but if you stop and rest you'll feel better fairly quickly because you've regained stamina.

Run that same mile and you might still have a sprint left in you, without resting, but you'll have to seriously rest to recover from that mile. That's the fatigue.

So yes, fighting can be recovered from fairly quickly, but running for a while should wear you down.

It doesn't really work that way. Sure you can fight after you run, but you will not fight as effectively. You can also run after you fight, but that will not be as effective either. Fighting takes a lot out of you, just ask anybody who trains MMA.

I have a non-fighting experience with this concept that ocurred only two days ago. I had to do a workout that consisted of the following;

Run 1 mile
100 pull-ups
200 push-ups
300 squats
Run 1 mile

Partition the reps as needed, and wear a 20lb weight vest for the entirety of the workout.

Now just looking at it, it doesn't look bad. However, after having already done the mile run before that, my speed and volume was a reduced, so the pullups (and other exercises) were harder and took longer to complete than I anticipated. My first set was not near what I would have completed if I had begun the pullups "fresh". This was the same with the other exercises as well, but the pull-ups are the best example since I did them first.

After completing the reps portion of the workout, I started the next 1 mile run, but this time it was much different than the first mile (which was easy). The reps portion of the workout wore me down so much, that when I began the run, I was not quite as fast as the first one, and actually had to stop and rest for a moment after the first lap. The second lap was completed normally, but the two laps after that were done with significant slowdown.

So long story short; There is no such thing as "fatigue" and "stamina" as separate entities. There is "volume".

You can sprint the last 40 meters of a mile run, but that sprint won't be as fast as if you had done it at the beginning.

warty goblin

2011-01-03, 02:26 PM

@warty: The reasoning behind two separate bars is because they make sense. Sprint a mile. You're tired, but if you stop and rest you'll feel better fairly quickly because you've regained stamina.

Run that same mile and you might still have a sprint left in you, without resting, but you'll have to seriously rest to recover from that mile. That's the fatigue.

So yes, fighting can be recovered from fairly quickly, but running for a while should wear you down.

Here's an interesting number: twenty minutes. It's the best estimate I've read for how long a trained and conditioned person could remain in hand to hand combat while wearing armor before they are too exhausted to continue. I've seen videos of fit young men just about keel over after two and a half minutes of continuous combat in full armor

Fighting, particularly in armor, is ridiculously hard work. You are continuously and simultaneously using your arms, legs and core muscles while having to remain at a heightened state of awareness, all while wearing twenty to sixty pounds of gear and being unable to dissipate heat as well as one normally would.

If you really want to model long term versus short term exhaustion, I think a better route would be to maintain a single stamina bar. Every action would have a short and long term stamina cost. Short term costs would regenerate as normal, once you stop expending effort for a while it just comes back. This represents catching your breath, sitting down for a minute, generally getting your ass back in gear.

The long term exhaustion penalty would simply reduce your maximum amount of stamina, and could only be removed by sleeping in a bed for a few hours. This represents muscles wearing out, lactic acid buildup, and simply just hitting the end of your tether. Obviously one would not want the max stamina penalties for most actions to be too harsh, and for a lot of actions they should be effectively zero. But for serious, strenuous work like sprinting or fighting they should definitely pack a punch.

The result of this system is that after a major battle or running a few miles you can take a break and get back into fighting condition. However you won't be able to maintain that level of exertion for as long until you really rest back up.

Psyren

2011-01-03, 02:35 PM

warty goblin

2011-01-03, 03:56 PM

Guys, we're talking about a game where you can run across a continent nonstop without sleeping, or where you can (while totally drained of fatigue) cast spells to perk yourself up. I just thought I'd step in before we start linking each other to Youtube videos of people wearing armor or weightlifting as evidence.

Which is why I prefaced all of my comments with 'if you really want to do this' or something similar. I honestly have no objection to the current system, and would much rather they altered potion consumption to take game time before they futzed around with how tired out I get.

Talkkno

2011-01-03, 04:10 PM

Here's an interesting number: twenty minutes. It's the best estimate I've read for how long a trained and conditioned person could remain in hand to hand combat while wearing armor before they are too exhausted to continue. I've seen videos of fit young men just about keel over after two and a half minutes of continuous combat in full armor
.

If that's the case, how did the English and French duke it out for 3 hours straight at Agincourt? :smallconfused:

"At this moment, when victory seemed assured and the English were preoccupied with taking as many prisoners as possible, a cry went up that the French had rallied and were about to launch another attack. In this crisis, Henry gave the only order possible. His men were physically and emotionally exhausted after three hours' intense fighting, they were about the face an assault by an unknown quantity of fresh troops and they had in their midst large numbers of the enemy who, although they were prisoners, could not be relied upon to remain inert and neutral during renewed fighting. He therefore commanded his men to kill all except their most eminent prisoners...."
-pg 301 of Juliet Barkers Agincourt

VanBuren

2011-01-03, 04:13 PM

If that's the case, how did the English and French duke it out for 3 hours straight at Agincourt? :smallconfused:

"At this moment, when victory seemed assured and the English were preoccupied with taking as many prisoners as possible, a cry went up that the French had rallied and were about to launch another attack. In this crisis, Henry gave the only order possible. His men were physically and emotionally exhausted after three hours' intense fighting, they were about the face an assault by an unknown quantity of fresh troops and they had in their midst large numbers of the enemy who, although they were prisoners, could not be relied upon to remain inert and neutral during renewed fighting. He therefore commanded his men to kill all except their most eminent prisoners...."
-pg 301 of Juliet Barkers Agincourt

Adrenaline probably played a huge part in it.