(3.PF) I need restoration

[WarKitty]

So, our DM apparently likes monsters with ability drain. He is also of the school that the adventure will not be modified depending on the characters in the party - if the party absolutely lacks a role, they can get a hireling (at full price). So far we've been managing ok, but I have a feeling the lack of someone able to cast restoration will end up hurting soon.

Our current casters:

Sorc4/Fighter2
Alchemist5/Rogue1
Druid6

So far the best I've been able to figure out is to buy a bunch of scrolls, or shell out money for a wand. Restoration is on the alchemist list, but we decided we really need him to take a few levels of rogue (going to arcane trickster). Plus the alchemist spell progression is...slow. Is there any way to get this spell on someone else's list? Or at least get it without spending 700gp extra per casting?

[WarKitty]

Anything? Alternate ways of healing ability drain would also help.

[true_shinken]

I think your best bet is on scrolls, really.
Maybe Planar Touchstone to get it from a domain for your Druid...?

[WarKitty]

I think your best bet is on scrolls, really.
Maybe Planar Touchstone to get it from a domain for your Druid...?

I have not been able to find a domain that has restoration as a domain spell, unfortunately. Scrolls...add up, unfortunately. Quite possibly more than we can afford.

Wonder if my DM would let us use leadership?

[Lys]

Are you allowed to use Magic Item Compendium, from 3.5?

If you are, there is the Rod of Bodily Restoration (Strengh, Dex and Con) and the Orb of Mental Renewal (Int, Wis and Cha).

Each cost 3 100gp. They have 3 charges a day;
1 charge = 4 points of 1 stats cured, or 2 points of every related stats.
2 charges = 6 points of 1 stats cured, or 3 points of every related stats.
3 charges = 8 points of 1 stats cured, or 4 points of every related stats.

[true_shinken]

Wonder if my DM would let us use leadership?
Ask him if he would let you research the spell. It's a lot less cheesy than leadership.




If you are, there is the Rod of Bodily Restoration (Strengh, Dex and Con) and the Orb of Mental Renewal (Int, Wis and Cha).

They only work on ability damage, not ability drain.

[Lys]

Oh, sorry. Nvm then

[Marnath]

Ask him if he would let you research the spell. It's a lot less cheesy than leadership.



They only work on ability damage, not ability drain.

I am also in favor of asking if you can research it rather than have to use leadership.

I know your DM doesn't like to homebrew at all, but you might be able to win this time since a lot of DM's hate leadership too.

[WarKitty]

Ask him if he would let you research the spell. It's a lot less cheesy than leadership.


Spell research is expensive. And leadership doesn't strictly *have* to be cheesy - not if we restrict it to someone now has a pet that can cast a few nice healing-type spells, not someone now has a wizard following them around buffing them up.

[true_shinken]

Spell research is expensive. And leadership doesn't strictly *have* to be cheesy - not if we restrict it to someone now has a pet that can cast a few nice healing-type spells, not someone now has a wizard following them around buffing them up.

You are getting a whole pack of actions. And gold, because a cohort comes with equipment. Even after all these years of 3.5, Leadership is still the most powerful feat for a reason. If I were a DM, I's just say 'dude, OK, I'll add the spell to your spell list, just never ever threaten me with that feat again' :smallbiggrin:

[WarKitty]

On leadership: I was thinking of seeing if the sorc (if she's willing) could grab a pseudodragon with levels in healer. She's CG aligned, has dragon bloodline already and no familiar (PF doesn't give them to sorcs). Makes sense in game without breaking things. Roleplay it as a modified familiar.

[Psyren]

If you can get your DM to give you Leadership then by all means go for it. It would be silly of us to talk you out of an advantage like that.

I personally agree with the research angle but both are a DM call anyway.

[WarKitty]

If you can get your DM to give you Leadership then by all means go for it. It would be silly of us to talk you out of an advantage like that.

I personally agree with the research angle but both are a DM call anyway.

Research is more reasonable, but our DM is probably more likely to allow research than leadership. Plus research is *expensive*.

[Marnath]

On leadership: I was thinking of seeing if the sorc (if she's willing) could grab a pseudodragon with levels in healer. She's CG aligned, has dragon bloodline already and no familiar (PF doesn't give them to sorcs). Makes sense in game without breaking things. Roleplay it as a modified familiar.

That's not really a good idea unless your DM is going to ignore the LA and RHD, because with those and the lower level of a cohort, you won't be getting many levels of healer on a pseudodragon. Better to have a human or something. Besides, how is a tiny dragon gonna ride his unicorn later on in life? :smalltongue:

[WinWin]

in another level the Druid will have access to Sheltered Vitality (LM), a spell that gives immunity to a number of status conditions. As Drain and Damage are tracked conditions, you have an argument for voiding any damage or drain when this spell is cast. Otherwise it could serve as a useful prophylactic measure.

See also the Summon Nature's Ally list. None grant restoration as far as I know, but quite a few have some SLA's that are quite helpful.

[WarKitty]

That's not really a good idea unless your DM is going to ignore the LA and RHD, because with those and the lower level of a cohort, you won't be getting many levels of healer on a pseudodragon. Better to have a human or something. Besides, how is a tiny dragon gonna ride his unicorn later on in life? :smalltongue:

Possibly. I can't see the party accepting a humanoid cohort. I mean, it would work better mechanically, but it would be awkward RP. Some sort of awakened animal or magical beast would work best.

Edit: pseudodragon riding a unicorn? That is *so cute*.

[elonin]

What level is Restoration for alchemist? Is the rogue taking umd? If so then the wand would only cost 750gp/50= 15 per charge and the dc isn't that hard to beat out of combat if he has a decent charisma. Doesn't seem possible yet but later on the druid will be able to deal with this though wild shape or summon natures ally spells.

[WarKitty]

What level is Restoration for alchemist? Is the rogue taking umd? If so then the wand would only cost 750gp/50= 15 per charge and the dc isn't that hard to beat out of combat if he has a decent charisma. Doesn't seem possible yet but later on the druid will be able to deal with this though wild shape or summon natures ally spells.

We have UMD on the Alchemist/rogue. He's not going to get restoration until 14th level though. A 4th level wand is 21000 gp, plus the material component cost for all 50 charges. Also, we already have wild shape but pathfinder wild shape does not allow you to gain SLA's of the new form. I have yet to find a SNA that summons something with restoration, plus pathfinder also does not let summoned creatures use SLA's to duplicate any ability with an expensive material component.

Edit: Does anyone actually know how pathfinder determines cohort level? It doesn't have LA anymore.

[Grelna the Blue]

Well, there is always the option of either taking Arcane Disciple (which requires decent Wisdom) or taking a 5th level of Sorcerer and using the Alternative Class Feature on p.52 of Complete Champion to gain access to a clerical spell domain and then choosing the Renewal domain listed on p.90 of Player's Guide to Faerun.

However, that domain only grants Lesser Restoration and Greater Restoration, so I don't know how much use to you it would be at your current level.

[Tvtyrant]

Another option for restoration is to have the sorcerer take levels in Rainbow Servant. Its more a long-term solution though.

[Chilingsworth]

Getting a healer would probably serve you very well, because they get the restoration spells early (restoration as a 3rd level spell, greater restoration as a 6th level spell.) Even if you cant get the cohort, at least try to get scrolls of those spells cast by a healer instead of a cleric. Also, since healers get restoration as a third level spell, it can be made into potions. Another option would be to get an archivist that learns the restoration spells off of the healer (rather than the cleric) spell list.

[Lord Bingo]

The way I see it you need a high level Paladin or a Cleric -there is no ways around that other than the wand. The short term solution is to hire a 5th level Cleric for a fair share of the treasure, if the DM will allow that. The other solution is to wait for one of your characters to croak -which seems bound to happen soon if your DM is as nasty with the monsters as you describe him.

[WarKitty]

Another option for restoration is to have the sorcerer take levels in Rainbow Servant. Its more a long-term solution though.

Our sorc is trying to get a gish build though. I forget where she's going with it, but she doesn't want to play a full caster.

Rrrrrrrr...this is one of the things I hate about the D&D system. You either make someone play a particular character (or one of a limited number), or spend a bunch of your resources trying to work around it. None of our players particularly enjoy the cleric or paladin.

[true_shinken]

Our sorc is trying to get a gish build though. I forget where she's going with it, but she doesn't want to play a full caster.

Rrrrrrrr...this is one of the things I hate about the D&D system. You either make someone play a particular character (or one of a limited number), or spend a bunch of your resources trying to work around it. None of our players particularly enjoy the cleric or paladin.

Well, this is true for all the gaming systems I know of, even outside RPG.
But really, between Leadership, Renewal domain and spell research you already have three solid options.

[Claudius Maximus]

Restoration is a 3rd level spell for Healers, so if a healer or archivist makes an item out of it you can calculate is as a 3rd level spell for pricing. Hopefully that can save you some money if you go down the item route.

[Eldariel]

Restoration is a level 4 spell even for Cleric; unless you literally ran a Healer, you wouldn't have Resto yet. For the time being, your options are hiring a higher level Cleric to serve as a Restorer (Celestial Charger Unicorn, by the way also on SNAIX list, would work), or collectively save gold for a Wand of Restoration (Scrolls will add up way too fast). I'd go with the latter; that's what I always do when Druid is the party healer.

[Psyren]

Rrrrrrrr...this is one of the things I hate about the D&D system. You either make someone play a particular character (or one of a limited number), or spend a bunch of your resources trying to work around it. None of our players particularly enjoy the cleric or paladin.

Or maybe your DM could lay off on the ability drain until you guys can do something about it?

Blaming the entire system when your DM specifically targets your weaknesses seems silly to me.

[Chilingsworth]

Restoration is a level 4 spell even for Cleric; unless you literally ran a Healer, you wouldn't have Resto yet. For the time being, your options are hiring a higher level Cleric to serve as a Restorer (Celestial Charger Unicorn, by the way also on SNAIX list, would work), or collectively save gold for a Wand of Restoration (Scrolls will add up way too fast). I'd go with the latter; that's what I always do when Druid is the party healer.

The Healer is a base class from the minatures' handbook. It gets restoration as a 3rd level spell. Because archivists can get divine spells from any divine caster class, restoration can also be a 3rd level for them.

[Grelna the Blue]

Of course, the other route you could go would be to each acquire a Bone Ring, listed (http://www.realmshelps.net/magic/items/rings.shtml) in Magic of Faerun for 36000 gp.

50 charges, each level of energy drain or point of ability drain prevented costs 1 charge.

Expensive and would probably aggro the GM, but it'd work.

[Eldariel]

The Healer is a base class from the minatures' handbook. It ges restoration as a 3rd level spell. Because archivists can get divine spells from any divine caster class, restoration can also be a 3rd level for them.

Ye, I know. My point was that the game can't really be built around the assumption of having access to a ****ty niché class (or its list in Archivist; though it's certainly reasonable to rule that Archivists follow the standard spell priority and have to use Cleric-version if it exists - they're still a high Tier 1 class).

[Claudius Maximus]

In a world where archivists are around it might be pretty reasonable to assume they are the primary sellers of divine scrolls, particularly of the more esoteric lists. This is admittedly a pretty magimart approach though.

[WarKitty]

Yeah...looking over our options, we're really hurting as a party for the lack of casters. I'm our only single-classed full caster. Alchemist gets things late, and our sorc is too gish-y to be a really good caster.

[Psyren]

Yeah...looking over our options, we're really hurting as a party for the lack of casters. I'm our only single-classed full caster. Alchemist gets things late, and our sorc is too gish-y to be a really good caster.

Which means your DM has a choice to make. Will he (a) focus on your party's glaring weakpoint in what the RPG community commonly refers to as a "d!ck move," (b) give you a follower that can make up for the lack without overshadowing the group (DMPC, Leadership, whatever), (c) let you buy or research your way out of the problem or (d) ease up on that drawback until your alchemist can get his rear in gear?

If he goes with (a), a talk might be in order.

[WarKitty]

Which means your DM has a choice to make. Will he (a) focus on your party's glaring weakpoint in what the RPG community commonly refers to as a "d!ck move," (b) give you a follower that can make up for the lack without overshadowing the group (DMPC, Leadership, whatever), (c) let you buy or research your way out of the problem or (d) ease up on that drawback until your alchemist can get his rear in gear?

If he goes with (a), a talk might be in order.

Well, like I said, the DM's opinion is that he planned this dungeon in advance of knowing the party makeup, and it is the party's job to be prepared for whatever eventualities. Could probably be persuaded to let us buy our way out. I'm thinking a cast 1/day amulet might be in order (I'm taking craft wondrous item at 7th level, we buy a scroll or something for the creation).

[Psyren]

It's nice that he planned it in advance and all, but isn't one of PnP's strengths supposed to be the ability to make modifications on the fly if necessary? If he has ability-drainers all over his dungeon, it's simply passive-aggressive to say "I already designed all these encounters, it's too bad if you guys want to have fun, I'm not doing any more work adjusting them."

That's an extreme example of course, but I would hope that if ability drain does become a problem for your group, he'd be willing to tweak things rather than TPK you.

[true_shinken]

That's an extreme example of course, but I would hope that if ability drain does become a problem for your group, he'd be willing to tweak things rather than TPK you.
Many old school DMs are like that. A friend of mine constantly says "the world does not change because you are weak". That's as valid a DMing philosophy as any other.

[tyckspoon]

Many old school DMs are like that. A friend of mine constantly says "the world does not change because you are weak". That's as valid a DMing philosophy as any other.

The players in such a world should remember that "Screw this, we're gonna go look for a job that won't kill us" is also a valid choice for their PCs; if the DM will not bend the situation at least a little, then there is no reason they should continue beating their heads against a situation they are entirely unsuited to solve.

[Psyren]

Many old school DMs are like that. A friend of mine constantly says "the world does not change because you are weak". That's as valid a DMing philosophy as any other.


The players in such a world should remember that "Screw this, we're gonna go look for a job that won't kill us" is also a valid choice for their PCs; if the DM will not bend the situation at least a little, then there is no reason they should continue beating their heads against a situation they are entirely unsuited to solve.

Tyck pretty much said what I was going to say, but I'll just add the reminder that D&D is meant to be a game i.e. a leisure-time activity, and DMs who derive pleasure out of making me waste the little that I have will soon find themselves in very short supply of mine.

[Amiel]

I would suggest preparing lesser restoration (a 2nd level druid spell) for insurance. You may need to access restoration via scrolls.

Hopefully the DM is willing to allow you to have a cohort, though since restoration itself is a 4th level spell, perhaps not for a while yet.

You'll need a leadership score of 12 to be able to attract a cohort of 8th level, or leadership score of 10 to gain a 7th level cohort. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#leadership). Leadership in PF requires a character level of 7th as opposed to 6th level in 3.5e.

[Eldariel]

Tyck pretty much said what I was going to say, but I'll just add the reminder that D&D is meant to be a game i.e. a leisure-time activity, and DMs who derive pleasure out of making me waste the little that I have will soon find themselves in very short supply of mine.

Others derive pleasure out of overcoming impossible hurdles, and I know people who play the game for an epic experience rather than some more conventional definition of "fun". And I personally definitely find game worlds more enjoyable when things aren't precisely tailored for the players. There are in-game means of finding out what is, and is not possible for you, after all. So...while I understand what you're saying, everybody doesn't play the same way. Much derives from the very subjectivity of "fun" itself.

[Psyren]

Others derive pleasure out of overcoming impossible hurdles, and I know people who play the game for an epic experience rather than some more conventional definition of "fun". And I personally definitely find game worlds more enjoyable when things aren't precisely tailored for the players. There are in-game means of finding out what is, and is not possible for you, after all. So...while I understand what you're saying, everybody doesn't play the same way. Much derives from the very subjectivity of "fun" itself.

I can understand "difficult hurdles" perhaps, but I can't really see how "impossible hurdles" could be fun for anyone. Given that they're... impossible and all.

[WarKitty]

I would suggest preparing lesser restoration (a 2nd level druid spell) for insurance. You may need to access restoration via scrolls.

Hopefully the DM is willing to allow you to have a cohort, though since restoration itself is a 4th level spell, perhaps not for a while yet.

You'll need a leadership score of 12 to be able to attract a cohort of 8th level, or leadership score of 10 to gain a 7th level cohort. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#leadership). Leadership in PF requires a character level of 7th as opposed to 6th level in 3.5e.

The level at which we can get the cohort is more important than the whole leadership score, actually. We're putting it on one of our high charisma characters. The limit is the two levels below thing.

[Amiel]

So the character would be 9th level? I'd still recommend lesser restoration as a precaution.

[WarKitty]

So the character would be 9th level? I'd still recommend lesser restoration as a precaution.

Lesser restoration isn't an issue, we have that. I'm just not sure how it helps?

[Acanous]

I have a suggestion here.
Have any party member pick up the Craft Wonderous Item feat.
Purchase one scroll or casting (If you're in a city with amicable clerics) of Restoration.
Craft a magical self-resetting trap into a masterwork locked chest or locket, that casts Restoration on whomever opens the lock.

Now you have as many restorations as you need.

[Coidzor]

Many old school DMs are like that. A friend of mine constantly says "the world does not change because you are weak". That's as valid a DMing philosophy as any other.

Doesn't change the fact that it just looks bad. Particularly in this scenario.

Especially since he's targeting something that they wouldn't be able to deal with even if they had anyone but a Healer that had it on their class list. It's one thing to be able to have a scroll or two on hand for unexpected things, but it's another to design something for low level characters to consistently deal with things that only high level characters can actually deal with at all.

So this leaves two options since he planned it all out in advance and won't let the players or the PCs ruin his perfect little set up by adjusting the parameters of the world or doing things differently in-game. 1. he's bad at planning, doesn't understand PC capabilities, and is covering his embarrassed butt or 2. he's doing it to be actively malicious, and thus, a berk.

[Acanous]

To approximate a cost for my suggestion;
Automatic reset spell trap costs:
500gp*Caster level*Spell level
plus
100GP*Material component cost (100 GP of diamond dust)

Min level for a cleric is 7th, so

500*7*4=14,000
plus 100*100=10,000

so 24,000 GP and (Roughly) a 30 Craft: Trapmaking check. This will take 24 days to complete.

For a magic item of infinate restorations, I believe this is very much worth it.

Edit: In 3.5, there would also be an experience cost, (1,120 XP) but I believe you said you're playing pathfinder, so...

[TheMeMan]

Doesn't change the fact that it just looks bad. Particularly in this scenario.

Especially since he's targeting something that they wouldn't be able to deal with even if they had anyone but a Healer that had it on their class list. It's one thing to be able to have a scroll or two on hand for unexpected things, but it's another to design something for low level characters to consistently deal with things that only high level characters can actually deal with at all.

So this leaves two options since he planned it all out in advance and won't let the players or the PCs ruin his perfect little set up by adjusting the parameters of the world or doing things differently in-game. 1. he's bad at planning, doesn't understand PC capabilities, and is covering his embarrassed butt or 2. he's doing it to be actively malicious, and thus, a berk.

Which brings me to my suggestion:

Your characters promptly leave the dungeon to become bakers. Nothing annoys a DM who perfectly plan a dungeon(To the point of being completely unflexible) than the players spending their time ignoring the dungeon, and doing something completely mundane.

[WarKitty]

Which brings me to my suggestion:

Your characters promptly leave the dungeon to become bakers. Nothing annoys a DM who perfectly plan a dungeon(To the point of being completely unflexible) than the players spending their time ignoring the dungeon, and doing something completely mundane.

Let's try to avoid the passive-aggressive here please. DM may not be perfect, but he does a pretty good job of running the game, and everyone's still having fun.

[Acanous]

what do you think of the trap idea? Including the cost for a cleric to cast the spell for you, it's only 3,380 more than a wand, and would work infinately.

You could even sell it later to recoup your losses once your alchemist learns the spell.

[WarKitty]

what do you think of the trap idea? Including the cost for a cleric to cast the spell for you, it's only 3,380 more than a wand, and would work infinately.

You could even sell it later to recoup your losses once your alchemist learns the spell.

Well, I was debating just making an amulet or something that let you cast restoration 1/day or 2/day something. Would be a bit cheaper.

[Psyren]

Let's try to avoid the passive-aggressive here please. DM may not be perfect, but he does a pretty good job of running the game, and everyone's still having fun.

If it's all going swimmingly, what use could you have for our advice?

If he truly "likes monsters with ability drain" and nobody in your party can do anything about it, then he needs to give you some way of dealing with it or change his tactics.

[WarKitty]

If it's all going swimmingly, what use could you have for our advice?

If he truly "likes monsters with ability drain" and nobody in your party can do anything about it, then he needs to give you some way of dealing with it or change his tactics.

Because there's a middle ground between "everything's perfect" and "the game is horrible"? Overall I like playing with this DM, I'm just having trouble with this one area. He said if we can find a creative workaround that's good, so I'm looking for a creative workaround. Yes, I would like this area worked out. No, I don't entirely like the way this part is being handled. No, I'm not going to mess up an overall fun game with my friends because I don't like the way one part of it is being handled.

[Psyren]

Because there's a middle ground between "everything's perfect" and "the game is horrible"? Overall I like playing with this DM, I'm just having trouble with this one area. He said if we can find a creative workaround that's good, so I'm looking for a creative workaround. Yes, I would like this area worked out. No, I don't entirely like the way this part is being handled. No, I'm not going to mess up an overall fun game with my friends because I don't like the way one part of it is being handled.

I guess what irked me is when you said "this is what I hate about D&D" when D&D itself provides solutions for problems like these - e.g. research, items, and cohorts/hirelings.

Have you run any of those suggestions by your DM? He might even help you make one of them work e.g. making research less costly if you add some drawbacks to your custom restoration or something; kind of like Epic Spell Development-lite.

[TheMeMan]

Let's try to avoid the passive-aggressive here please. DM may not be perfect, but he does a pretty good job of running the game, and everyone's still having fun.

Eh, I was being slightly sarcastic.

However, I just want to note that according to PF wealth per level, you guys are running with about 16,000 GP. Considering that a lot of your options are running in the 30,000 or so GP range, you'd have to pool two people's entire wealth to buy something. Likewise, you are at a level in which no matter which class you chose, you would not be able to do anything about ability drain.

Thus a possible choice is to make money somehow that won't get you killed. Hence, baking.

Of course, this is assuming wealth-by level for Pathfinder.

Edit: Also this is assuming that you've tried other options, and no reasonable solution has occurred.

[WarKitty]

I guess what irked me is when you said "this is what I hate about D&D" when D&D itself provides solutions for problems like these - e.g. research, items, and cohorts/hirelings.

Have you run any of those suggestions by your DM? He might even help you make one of them work e.g. making research less costly if you add some drawbacks to your custom restoration or something; kind of like Epic Spell Development-lite.

I'll talk to him. Like TheMeMan said though, a lot of the solutions in this case are way out of reach for a WBL party. Or at least severely crippling to a party that is mostly mundanes (and thus magic weapon and armor dependent). Hence my frustration.

[TheMeMan]

I'll talk to him. Like TheMeMan said though, a lot of the solutions in this case are way out of reach for a WBL party. Or at least severely crippling to a party that is mostly mundanes (and thus magic weapon and armor dependent). Hence my frustration.

Well, the problem isn't just that you're full of mundanes. The real problem is that the DM is throwing stuff at you that characters of your level cannot reasonably deal with. As in, most casters wouldn't even have access to the restoration at all at this level, and the only viable option to burn through a significant portion of your entire party's wealth. Literally, there aren't that many options open to you at all, and the ones that are will gimp you for the entire game.

Essentially your DM designed the dungeon without taking into account character level. Not that it's your fault that you didn't properly plan for it, but it's his fault for designing something that there is no good(or even half-decent) way to deal with it.

[Coidzor]

^: And he doesn't even make sense in the context of it being a wealth-sink in case he felt he gave them too much money or shiny things. As he dropped something like 3.5(ahh, freudian slips) 2.5 naked barbarians into the party for them to have to equip with spare stuff and things looted from enemy corpses.
Because there's a middle ground between "everything's perfect" and "the game is horrible"? Overall I like playing with this DM, I'm just having trouble with this one area. He said if we can find a creative workaround that's good, so I'm looking for a creative workaround. Yes, I would like this area worked out. No, I don't entirely like the way this part is being handled. No, I'm not going to mess up an overall fun game with my friends because I don't like the way one part of it is being handled.

Does he always defer the work on to you in these sorts of situations until he finally says yes to one of your proposals or does he actually work with you on these sorts of things? :smallconfused:

[Grelna the Blue]

I guess what irked me is when you said "this is what I hate about D&D" when D&D itself provides solutions for problems like these - e.g. research, items, and cohorts/hirelings.

Have you run any of those suggestions by your DM? He might even help you make one of them work e.g. making research less costly if you add some drawbacks to your custom restoration or something; kind of like Epic Spell Development-lite.

One disadvantage you could build into a researched version that might let you get it as an arcane spell is that it is only effective when cast within a short period (say 1 hr) of the loss. That would require either constant memorization or scrolls and potions. That may not seem like a horrific disadvantage, but it would mean that you couldn't heal the day after a battle so there'd be a definite tradeoff in resources

[TheMeMan]

^: And he doesn't even make sense in the context of it being a wealth-sink in case he felt he gave them too much money or shiny things. As he dropped something like 3.5(ahh, freudian slips) 2.5 naked barbarians into the party for them to have to equip with spare stuff and things looted from enemy corpses.

Does he always defer the work on to you in these sorts of situations until he finally says yes to one of your proposals or does he actually work with you on these sorts of things? :smallconfused:

That's what I'm wondering. I mean honestly, he's setting them up with a portion of the dungeon, which they cannot possibly deal with(A little bit of ability drain and the like wouldn't be that egregarious to throw at them, but apparently an entire section devoted largely to it?), the only options mean straining further and an already heavily strained resources, giving new characters literally nothing to work with.

I'm thinking this DM didn't exactly plan out his dungeon or the campaign very well(Note, he may have spent a long time planning it, but that doesn't mean he did it well). Frankly, if I were DMing this I'd give the party some item to deal with it. Give them a Wand of Restoration, and when it's done it's done. Giving the player's actual resources to use isn't necessarily being favorable to them, it's giving a possible remedy to the situation. Allow them to use the resources you give them, and if they screw it up, that's their fault. But to give them absolutely nothing, whilst throwing things at them that any party of such a level could not possibly deal with is simply an unreasonable way of doing it.

Frankly, there is no creative means of fixing the problem from the player's standpoint. Either shell out a massive chunk of their wealth, or deal with it. The DM is being rather unreasonably inflexible, it seems. He doesn't need to change the dungeon setup, but dropping an item or two that can actually help you is most certainly called for. For free, no less.

[Coidzor]

I imagine it would be more paying for it with their blood. And charisma.

[TheMeMan]

I imagine it would be more paying for it with their blood. And charisma.

Hmm...

You know, something that may very well reduce the price on it is if they get it as a cursed item, or something with a drawback to the wielder. Granted, it'd take some homebrew, but if you pass it off as something of the "well it's not just helping"... may pass muster with such a DM. Difficult to say, though.

[Eldariel]

Essentially your DM designed the dungeon without taking into account character level. Not that it's your fault that you didn't properly plan for it, but it's his fault for designing something that there is no good(or even half-decent) way to deal with it.

It's worth noting that there are stat draining creatures way under level 6, even. WoTC figured you'd manage an Allip's Wis drain on level 3, for example. I wouldn't blame the DM here. Maybe he's just of the school who doesn't believe players need to be at, or near full potential much of the time? Maybe he just finds you'll deal with whatever encounters you have, and visit a Temple on the way back or some such? Iono.

[Psyren]

It's worth noting that there are stat draining creatures way under level 6, even. WoTC figured you'd manage an Allip's Wis drain on level 3, for example. I wouldn't blame the DM here.

It's common knowledge that WotC borked the CR system, yes; however, it's the DM's job to know which monsters are under-CR'ed (including Allips) or at least be able to hazard a guess at a given monster's TPK potential. At the end of the day, Skip, Baker et al. aren't at your gaming table, so they can't be held responsible for what happens there.

[true_shinken]

It's common knowledge that WotC borked the CR system, yes; however, it's the DM's job to know which monsters are under-CR'ed (including Allips) or at least be able to hazard a guess at a given monster's TPK potential. At the end of the day, Skip, Baker et al. aren't at your gaming table, so they can't be held responsible for what happens there.

No, the DM job is to control all the other characters and help you guys tell a story. Maybe the party had a knowledge check and found out 'oh, there are allips here'. If they are still going through the area without being properly protected, it's hardly the DM's fault. Really, you're just assuming this guy is a bad DM because he won't change his dungeon? That sounds really unfair.
WarKitty is doing the right thing - trying to come up with a way to overcome the challenges. Dissing his DM is nowhere helpful, IMHO.

[Psyren]

No, the DM job is to control all the other characters and help you guys tell a story. Maybe the party had a knowledge check and found out 'oh, there are allips here'. If they are still going through the area without being properly protected, it's hardly the DM's fault. Really, you're just assuming this guy is a bad DM because he won't change his dungeon? That sounds really unfair.
WarKitty is doing the right thing - trying to come up with a way to overcome the challenges. Dissing his DM is nowhere helpful, IMHO.

I'm not one of the posters "dissing his DM," nor did I once call his DM "bad," so please don't make it out like I am, thank you.

And the point of this thread is that there is no "proper protection" for his party's level and WBL. Not unless the DM houserules some in, which comes right back to what I said three posts ago - either the DM helps them or eases up.

[true_shinken]

And the point of this thread is that there is no "proper protection" for his party's level and WBL. Not unless the DM houserules some in, which comes right back to what I said three posts ago - either the DM helps them or eases up.
That's too much "game" and too little "story". Imagine how LotR would be if Frodo just decided to wait around until he leveled up before going to Mordor. Or picture being a player controlling Drizzt when ge goes against King Obould - "Oh, wait, he is an avatar now? That's totally beyond the challenge rating I expected, you either help me or ease the encounter up".
Sometimes, you should just run away from stuff. Sometimes, you are expected to fail. There is no drama, there is no story, if everything is good, manageable and easy.

[Psyren]

That's too much "game" and too little "story". Imagine how LotR would be if Frodo just decided to wait around until he leveled up before going to Mordor.

You do realize how poor an example that is? Frodo had several DMPCs helping him - in his party at the beginning, and then drawing fire away from him for the last 2/3 of his journey.


Or picture being a player controlling Drizzt when ge goes against King Obould - "Oh, wait, he is an avatar now? That's totally beyond the challenge rating I expected, you either help me or ease the encounter up".

I don't know anything about Obould so I can't comment. Though didn't Drizz't have a deity looking out for him at several tough spots in his career?


Sometimes, you should just run away from stuff. Sometimes, you are expected to fail. There is no drama, there is no story, if everything is good, manageable and easy.

"Manageable" and "easy" are not necessarily synonyms. There is a middle ground between "Encounter? What encounter?" and "Run for your miserable lives!"

[Coidzor]

No, the DM job is to control all the other characters and help you guys tell a story. Maybe the party had a knowledge check and found out 'oh, there are allips here'. If they are still going through the area without being properly protected, it's hardly the DM's fault. Really, you're just assuming this guy is a bad DM because he won't change his dungeon? That sounds really unfair.

The DM set this up, apparently well in advance. The DM controls the rate at which the party levels and acquires goods. The party is several levels short of where it would need to be in order to deal with the problem consistently. The level of ability drain is apparently consistent enough that it's outside the bounds of what could be reasonably be expected to be covered by just-in-case scroll-type resources.

Rather than working with warkitty, the DM just says to figure something out, showing that he doesn't particularly care.

So, it does sound like there's more than merely the issue of warkitty's quest to get a source of restoration that won't require them pawning several people's magic weapons/armor at play here.

So, it's not 'because he won't change his dungeon,' that's just a contributing factor in a confluence of unfortunate implications.

And the "still going through without proper protections" thing, we have no way of knowing how much on the rails they are as a group.

[true_shinken]

You do realize how poor an example that is? Frodo had several DMPCs helping him - in his party at the beginning, and then drawing fire away from him for the last 2/3 of his journey.
I think those DMPCs would rather be player characters, but oh well. No point discussing this.


I don't know anything about Obould so I can't comment. Though didn't Drizz't have a deity looking out for him at several tough spots in his career?
Drizzt? Not that I know of, no.


"Manageable" and "easy" are not necessarily synonyms. There is a middle ground between "Encounter? What encounter?" and "Run for your miserable lives!"
OK, then I dare you to point me towards good action stories composed only of manageable encounters.



And the "still going through without proper protections" thing, we have no way of knowing how much on the rails they are as a group.
Granted. If he is railing them and throwing hard encounters at the same time, something is indeed wrong.

[Randomatic]

Edit: Does anyone actually know how pathfinder determines cohort level? It doesn't have LA anymore.

Pathfinder doesn't use RHD or LA to determine ECL. They use the monster's CR instead. So the Pseudodragon would be ECL 1. When you could take it as a cohort you could have a Pseudodragon 1/Healer 4.

[WarKitty]

Pathfinder doesn't use RHD or LA to determine ECL. They use the monster's CR instead. So the Pseudodragon would be ECL 1. When you could take it as a cohort you could have a Pseudodragon 1/Healer 4.

Except they have a list of monster cohorts and the levels you can take them at which appears to be completely unrelated to the monster's CR. Linky (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-cohorts)

(Will get to the rest of the thread later, have final in 15min.)

[Psyren]

OK, then I dare you to point me towards good action stories composed only of manageable encounters.

An occasional situation requiring retreat is not a problem. But that is not the situation WarKitty is describing.

And for LotR, are you seriously saying Gandalf was a PC? Arwen? Faramir? Even Aragorn's status became debatable once he went King-mode.

[true_shinken]

An occasional situation requiring retreat is not a problem. But that is not the situation WarKitty is describing.
No? Is he is not on rails, he should be able to get out of the dungeon, find a way to get the money, buy the wand and then go back in. Kind of like the drak elf in Final Fantasy IV.


And for LotR, are you seriously saying Gandalf was a PC? Arwen? Faramir? Even Aragorn's status became debatable once he went King-mode.
As I said, discussing this is pointless.

[Psyren]

No? Is he is not on rails, he should be able to get out of the dungeon, find a way to get the money, buy the wand and then go back in. Kind of like the drak elf in Final Fantasy IV.

"Getting the money" would involve totally exceeding both his WBL and that of another party member, which comes right back to DM assistance as I said.

(If discussing LotR is pointless, why did you bring it up? :smallconfused:)

[true_shinken]

"Getting the money" would involve totally exceeding both his WBL and that of another party member, which comes right back to DM assistance as I said.
And so what? WBL is a guideline. You think the DM giving the item for free is good but requiring a quest to buy it is bad?


(If discussing LotR is pointless, why did you bring it up? :smallconfused:)
I just pointed it out as an example. Discussing LotR is not pointless; discussing if any given LotR characters would be a PC or NPC in a hypotetical LotR campaign is.

[Psyren]

And so what? WBL is a guideline. You think the DM giving the item for free is good but requiring a quest to buy it is bad?

Where did I ever say requiring a quest for it is bad?

As long as the DM makes it accessible, he can put any caveats, hurdles or drawbacks on it he deems necessary. After all, it should be hard for a Druid to get Restoration that early.

I like the idea of the cursed item too. What I don't like is if the DM does nothing.

[TheMeMan]

And so what? WBL is a guideline. You think the DM giving the item for free is good but requiring a quest to buy it is bad?
.

Now, granted we don't have the necessary information, but considering past knowledge(He dropped two itemless and wealthless barbarian characters into the group, where the other players had to actually equip them with leftover useless loot), the appearance that he's a rather strict by the-books DM, and the fact that they haven't been reaching Wealth-Per-Level guidelines yet makes me wonder if it's viable. Likewise, the DM isn't willing to change the dungeon, so one has to wonder if he'd be willing to write-up a quest. Not saying he won't, but I've dealt with this particular type of DM, and anything outside of their plans is usually a no-go.

That said, I think Warkitty should try for this route.

Also, the entire problem isn't that they're being dealt with a singular, or a handful of impossible tasks. THe problem is that the entire section warrants them to "RUN FER YER LIVES!". Which is hardly heroic, hardly a good story, and hardly fun. THere is a difference between overcoming insurmountable odds and overcoming an impossible situation. The former is fun, the latter is obviously impossible.

[WarKitty]

Ok here's my current plan. Using the magic item pricing rules, an amulet of restoration 1/day would be 10040 gp to craft. Plus 700gp for the scroll. The spellcraft check should not be that difficult to make. Might need 2/day, for double that cost; I'll talk to my party.

As far as the way the game is run: We've only actually had to deal with ability drain once. However, the DM is dropping a fair number of hints about "too bad you don't have a cleric". Hence the concern. Restoration is one of the few spells I can't duplicate.

So, while we're on the topic, anyone have any good ways to break WBL? I mean, we'll have a couple of 7th level casters soon (I'm at like 32500xp).

[randomhero00]

OP: bleh, all I have to say is I hate DMs like that. I hate hate stat drains. Any permanent loss to my character like disjunction, etc. I'd ask him for a homebrewed item that gives restor 1/day or something.

[Marnath]

However, the DM is dropping a fair number of hints about "too bad you don't have a cleric". Hence the concern. Restoration is one of the few spells I can't duplicate.

And you've pointed out that a cleric of your level won't have the spell either, right?

[Psyren]

And you've pointed out that a cleric of your level won't have the spell either, right?

This confused me too.

[WarKitty]

And you've pointed out that a cleric of your level won't have the spell either, right?

No, no I haven't. I suspect we're having problems with CR adjustments for a larger group. The CR system works even less well that way.

[true_shinken]

As far as the way the game is run: We've only actually had to deal with ability drain once. However, the DM is dropping a fair number of hints about "too bad you don't have a cleric". Hence the concern. Restoration is one of the few spells I can't duplicate.
Well, good luck. Glad to see your DM is not in fact a bad one after all - he did tell you were in over your heads in advance so you could prepare.


So, while we're on the topic, anyone have any good ways to break WBL? I mean, we'll have a couple of 7th level casters soon (I'm at like 32500xp).
Don't do it. Don't break WBL by abusing spells. This leads to DM anger and disjunction. Play nice.

[Marnath]

No, no I haven't. I suspect we're having problems with CR adjustments for a larger group. The CR system works even less well that way.

Umm.... may I ask why not? If you make him aware that it's pretty hard to fix ability drain at your level he might go easier on you. If you guys get drained down to nothing and can't fix it you'll really only have yourselves to blame if you didn't even mention it. :smallconfused:

I understand he's got it all planned out, and there's the whole "things don't get less dangerous just because you aren't prepared" and I support that, but if he's assuming you could do this with a cleric, he might make some changes if he knew that even with a cleric you couldn't do that yet.

[TheMeMan]

Ok here's my current plan. Using the magic item pricing rules, an amulet of restoration 1/day would be 10040 gp to craft. Plus 700gp for the scroll. The spellcraft check should not be that difficult to make. Might need 2/day, for double that cost; I'll talk to my party.

As far as the way the game is run: We've only actually had to deal with ability drain once. However, the DM is dropping a fair number of hints about "too bad you don't have a cleric". Hence the concern. Restoration is one of the few spells I can't duplicate.

So, while we're on the topic, anyone have any good ways to break WBL? I mean, we'll have a couple of 7th level casters soon (I'm at like 32500xp).

I'd suggest not breaking WBL to terribly if its possible. Using spells to gain a few extra resources beyond WBL isn't bad, but breaking it tends to create DM fiat... against you.

That said, another possibility is to find the path less traveled, so to speak. Rather than getting into the fights, attempt to circumvent them in whichever way you can. Could be difficult due to your bruisers, but it's a possibility. Be sneaky, be sly, be cunning. You're not given even ground, so don't play on even ground. This is not to say do something passive-aggressive, just something that doesn't involve you getting killed. A good DM will award experience for that kind of effort.

If it's a possibility, it might be easier and possibly cheaper to get items of that sort. Then again, I don't know.

[Amiel]

Lesser restoration isn't an issue, we have that. I'm just not sure how it helps?

Given your DM's predilection for sending monsters with ability drain against your group, he may also be willing to send monsters with ability damage capabilities against your character and the other characters.
Lesser restoration, while not of much use against ability drain, will ensure that your characters aren't rendered useless.

[WarKitty]

Given your DM's predilection for sending monsters with ability drain against your group, he may also be willing to send monsters with ability damage capabilities against your character and the other characters.
Lesser restoration, while not of much use against ability drain, will ensure that your characters aren't rendered useless.

We have lesser restoration as a spell on the alchemist already.

[Amiel]

Hence, it is an insurance policy; it also ensures that the majority of combats don't result in TPKs.