Needing very very VERY optimized wizard

[uchiha191942]

Hello giants, I am in dire need of a very optimized wizard. I am in favor of enchantment, illiusion, or abjuration, but any school is fine. I need the level to be 4th level or 8th level or even both. You are my only hope, giants.

[Keinnicht]

Didn't they get Pun-Pun down to a 4th level Wizard? He's pretty optimized. Play him.

[uchiha191942]

can you give me a link to the 4th level pun-pun or tell me where to look?

[Show]

At level 4: You are next-to-useless. Take word of pain. Then swear and fire a crossbow a lot.
At level 8: break the game. You're a wizard, after all.
Here is level 5 pun-pun, I believe.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.

[HunterOfJello]

Pun-Pun can be achieved as a level 1 Paladin, I believe. But from your original post I think you'd like to play an optimized Wizard and not an Omnipotent Kobold Deity.

If your really want to ability to cast every spell in the game, use the abilities of every monster ever published, move at faster than light speeds, have infinity on all of your ability scores, have infinitely high saves, and become a deity, then Pun-Pun is what you're looking for. However, if you do play Pun-Pun, no one will want to play d&d with you anymore because you will be more powerful in the game than any entity other than the Dm.

~

I don't have any specific builds for you, but The Tier System for Prestige Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) would be highly relevant.

Out of the PrCs on the "Up Two Tiers or More" list, the Dweomerkeeper, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and Shadowcraft mage are all very powerful prestige classes that work wonders to make a Wizard frighteningly powerful.

[uchiha191942]

well, sadly I just asked the DM running the game and he said he won't let pun-pun be played, even the 5th level version, so any optimized non-pun-pun wizard?

[Show]

I guess in my first post I should have asked:
Why do you want such a powerful build? Insane campaign? Just want to break a normal campaign? What?

[theMycon]

well, sadly I just asked the DM running the game and he said he won't let pun-pun be played, even the 5th level version...

Does anyone else find it hilarious that he asked his DM "Can I have infinite power", got a "no" response, and then asked "What if I wait until fifth level to have infinite power"?

[Show]

Does anyone else find it hilarious that he asked his DM "Can I have infinite power", got a "no" response, and then asked "What if I wait until fifth level to have infinite power"?
Well, the sad part is that some DMs will allow it.

Player: Can I play pun-pun?
DM: No.
Player: What if the build is useless until level 5?
DM internal monologue: You can kill him at level 4...

4 levels later...
Player: I'm pun pun!
DM remembers
*swearing*

Just lay low and let the DM forget for a few levels...

[Godskook]

@OP, for a 4th level wizard, without any assumptiongs on your future plans, I suggest a Focused Specialist Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt. You can have a level of Master specialist at that level, but it might get in the way of certain build-types. That alone, combined with a good reading of Treantmonk's "guide to wizards" handbook will leave you with plenty to do.


Does anyone else find it hilarious that he asked his DM "Can I have infinite power", got a "no" response, and then asked "What if I wait until fifth level to have infinite power"?

Yep

[Incanur]

The illusion specialist can be solid if you're clever with silent image and DM accepts the spell.

[Baveboi]

{Scrubbed}

[HunterOfJello]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Well, Pazuzu isn't your normal Demon Prince. He has a long history in d&d and acts differently than most demons. Instead of focusing on taking over the Abyss for himself or winning the Blood War, Pazuzu focuses on corrupting creatures of Good alignment through deception and temptation.

Pazuzu is renowned for the fact that he grants wishs or gives aid to any good aligned mortal who summons him. The cost of his help is that they have a forced alignment shift.

Using the actual information about Pazuzu in context, during the Pun-Pun ascention the alignment shift would probably be forced towards evil and not Law or Chaos. Also, the ways in which Pazuzu grants the wishes (like any evil wish granting entity) would likely have powerful unforseen consequences that end up with the character dead and with an alignment of Chaotic Evil. This wouldn't necessarily forbid Pun-Pun to ascend to godhood, but Pazuzu would very likely be in a very favorable position during and after the ascention.

[Escheton]

Sounds like you want to play a gnome...

[Flickerdart]

Well, Pazuzu isn't your normal Demon Prince. He has a long history in d&d and acts differently than most demons. Instead of focusing on taking over the Abyss for himself or winning the Blood War, Pazuzu focuses on corrupting creatures of Good alignment through deception and temptation.

Pazuzu is renowned for the fact that he grants wishs or gives aid to any good aligned mortal who summons him. The cost of his help is that they have a forced alignment shift.

Using the actual information about Pazuzu in context, during the Pun-Pun ascention the alignment shift would probably be forced towards evil and not Law or Chaos. Also, the ways in which Pazuzu grants the wishes (like any evil wish granting entity) would likely have powerful unforseen consequences that end up with the character dead and with an alignment of Chaotic Evil. This wouldn't necessarily forbid Pun-Pun to ascend to godhood, but Pazuzu would very likely be in a very favorable position during and after the ascention.
Hence the Paladinhood - Pazuzu never corrupts a Paladin's first wish, to make sure the Paladin calls upon him again in the future and can be corrupted further.

[Akal Saris]

Well, Pazuzu isn't your normal Demon Prince. He has a long history in d&d and acts differently than most demons. Instead of focusing on taking over the Abyss for himself or winning the Blood War, Pazuzu focuses on corrupting creatures of Good alignment through deception and temptation.

Pazuzu is renowned for the fact that he grants wishs or gives aid to any good aligned mortal who summons him. The cost of his help is that they have a forced alignment shift.

Using the actual information about Pazuzu in context, during the Pun-Pun ascention the alignment shift would probably be forced towards evil and not Law or Chaos. Also, the ways in which Pazuzu grants the wishes (like any evil wish granting entity) would likely have powerful unforseen consequences that end up with the character dead and with an alignment of Chaotic Evil. This wouldn't necessarily forbid Pun-Pun to ascend to godhood, but Pazuzu would very likely be in a very favorable position during and after the ascention.

Well, except that Pun-Pun would be wise to eliminate Pazuzu, since that will prevent other kobold paladins from doing the same and toppling him.

[Tvtyrant]

Optimized wizards should be specialized in either Transmutation or Conjuration; all depending on what you want. I would guess Conjuration for the versatility.

Then you take Spell focus: Conjuration to make your AoE spells' DCs better, and probably Augmented Summons for better Summon Monster spells. Summon Swarm: Spiders is actually an amazing spell for killing melee enemies. They can't hurt the swarm! Your last feat is up to you, but I suggest Extend Spell to extend your AoE spells.

I don't know what your trying to do with your wizard, but you will probably ban Enchantment and Evocation, which are two of the weakest schools.

[Optimator]

Incantatrix is probably your best bet for power. Learn all the good spells, pump your Spellcraft skill and go to town.

[Yuki Akuma]

Why do you need an optimised wizard?

[Acanous]

If you go Illusionist, definately go Master Specialist into Shadowcraft Mage.
Grab Phantasmal Assailants, it's a save or suck illusion spell that will cripple most opponents and leave them vulnerable to further illusions.
no matter what kind of build you're looking at, make sure you have Obscuring Mist and Solid Fog. Glitterdust is a lifesaver as well.

[0Megabyte]

At level 4: You are next-to-useless. Take word of pain. Then swear and fire a crossbow a lot.
At level 8: break the game. You're a wizard, after all.
Here is level 5 pun-pun, I believe.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.

Heh. At level four, my wizard is the backbone of the party. Buffs like Expansion and Bull's Strength, battlefield control like grease or baleful transposition, save-or-lose like glitterdust, I change the course of battles with a single spell at level four, and in fact carry the rest of the party.

At level 8... I shudder to think.

[Irreverent Fool]

Hello giants, I am in dire need of a very optimized wizard. I am in favor of enchantment, illiusion, or abjuration, but any school is fine. I need the level to be 4th level or 8th level or even both. You are my only hope, giants.

The fact that you even considered trying to play pun-pun disappoints me greatly. That having been said, the following (obligatory) link should help you in creating a powerful wizard. Remember that letting the rest of your party play the game can help greatly. They are loyal minions that don't have to be coerced magically:

Being Batman: the Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002)

[J.Gellert]

Well the good thing about wizards is that you don't really need to optimize. Your choice of spells is 90% of your effectiveness. A caster that can cast any spell in the game an unlimited times per day is useless if all he does is Melf's Acid Arrow. So don't worry, you can always fix your character by switching tactics.

That said, I'm a huge fan of the Necropolitan Tainted Scholar, just because it has better flavor than Pun-Pun. Ask your DM if you can be that.

Otherwise take the sure and tried route ; Incantatrix, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Malconvoker, this kind of thing. But as I said, you don't really need it, to be an optimized wizard. Just choose your spells wisely and remember to aim for the weak save or none at all :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

At level 4: You are next-to-useless. Take word of pain. Then swear and fire a crossbow a lot.

What are you talking about? Level 4 Wizards are strong. Very strong, in fact. You can easily have 10+ spell slots on level 4 which should be plenty to last you through any day. If going for just base "strong", I'd go Conjurer 4 or Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 1 and run it with Abrupt Jaunt and Obtain Familiar and just prepare good spells. That'd get you far.

Hm, you may be able to enter Shadowcraft Mage on level 2; you need Hide and Bluff in class, and ability to cast 4th level spells, effectively. Precocious and Sanctum would get you to 3... Dragonsblood Pool would require a level 2 spontaneous slot; Alacritous Cogitation + Sanctum Spell, I suppose. Bleh, not quite good enough. Ah well; just too few feats even with Flaws.

[eggynack]

Treantmonks guide to Wizards: Being a God (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God)
Standard issue reading for any aspiring wizard, and a bit more party friendly then Logicninja's guide.

[Beorn080]

I've always liked the Shadowcraft Mage, aka Killer Gnome

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872354/Shadowcraft_Mage_Handbook

Illusions that are more real when disbelieved, and with sufficient cheese you can convert silent images into 120% real miracles. Specifically, you'll need Arcane Disciple (luck). Have fun casting your own quasireal miracles.

[Draz74]

Take word of pain.

This has gone somewhat unnoticed, but ... yes. Power Word: Pain is about the cheesiest, most powerful thing that a Wizard 4 can be throwing around or have access to.

[Incanur]

This has gone somewhat unnoticed, but ... yes. Power Word: Pain is about the cheesiest, most powerful thing that a Wizard 4 can be throwing around or have access to.

The spell is more effective against PCs than against NPCs. It's rather slow for a low-level encounter. Grease can save you from a greataxe to the face while power word: pain probably won't. It's great for assassinating folks, though.

[Defiant]

well, sadly I just asked the DM running the game and he said he won't let pun-pun be played, even the 5th level version, so any optimized non-pun-pun wizard?

...

:smallannoyed:

[Dalek-K]

power word pain....and a bouncy ball ^ ^

Oh come on!

Edit: yes i know it was originally an insanity word but pain should work too :3

[Dairun Cates]

...

:smallannoyed:

Pretty much this.

Why even bother? You're clearly not here to have fun with your friends and cooperate against the forces of evil. Even in a solo campaign, you can't be there for the challenge at that point. You could use Pun Pun is to show off, but by now a good portion of the D&D base know what Pun Pun is, and they know you didn't make it. So, at that point, the only real point would be to attempt to destroy your GM's campaign without him or her knowing.

I really can't honestly think of a GOOD reason to play Pun Pun EVER. It's like bringing a pitching machine to a baseball game and just setting it to 150 mph.

[Realms of Chaos]

power word pain....and a bouncy ball ^ ^

Oh come on!

Edit: yes i know it was originally an insanity word but pain should work too :3

Except that it was originally a symbol of insanity, not Power Word: Insanity (which, to my knowledge, doesn't exist). Though there is a Symbol of Pain, I don't think our wizard friend has access to it yet.

[Dalek-K]

The only good time to play Pun-Pun is when everyone is playing a Pun-Pun against a Pun-Pun and the battle is in fact a Battle of Puns


Seriously this happened :)


Ah my mistake ^ ^, I just woke up so please forgive me haha

[Draz74]

I really can't honestly think of a GOOD reason to play Pun Pun EVER. It's like bringing a pitching machine to a baseball game and just setting it to 150 mph.

Cindy is like setting the pitching machine to 150 mph.

Pun-Pun is like setting the pitching machine to the speed of light. Including the part where it destroys the universe.

[Ormur]

well, sadly I just asked the DM running the game and he said he won't let pun-pun be played, even the 5th level version, so any optimized non-pun-pun wizard?

I'm guessing this is either a joke or you don't realize the full implications of actually playing Pun-Pun.

The number of qualifiers in the title of the post is a bit excessive, you can break the game with just a very optimized wizard, so responses suggesting monstrosities like Pun-Pun are to be expected.

[Dalek-K]

Step 1 = Int: 18
Step 2 = Spells: Whatever tickles our fancy
Step 3 = ?????
Step 4= Profit!

You can't really go wrong even with a straight up wizard...

Who else is in the party or is this a solo thing?

[elonin]

Well the good thing about wizards is that you don't really need to optimize. Your choice of spells is 90% of your effectiveness. A caster that can cast any spell in the game an unlimited times per day is useless if all he does is Melf's Acid Arrow. So don't worry, you can always fix your character by switching tactics.

Must disagree in part. If you make a wizard and don't have a clear concept or strategy, you'll end up with a tier 2-3 character.

I'm surprised that some people claim to be able to break any game with pun-pun with the only downside being that they may have to dodge a book. Anything you can break the dm can break better. Which means that when just before you start your infinite stat loop or other thing that is egregious some number of highly capable casters deal with you. PERMANENTLY.

[absolmorph]

Must disagree in part. If you make a wizard and don't have a clear concept or strategy, you'll end up with a tier 2-3 character.

I'm surprised that some people claim to be able to break any game with pun-pun with the only downside being that they may have to dodge a book. Anything you can break the dm can break better. Which means that when just before you start your infinite stat loop or other thing that is egregious some number of highly capable casters deal with you. PERMANENTLY.
There's an ability for that. Check out the Aleax. Singular Enemy. Only its intended victim can harm it or hinder it in any way.
Get a familiar, give it to your familiar and give it to yourself. Select your familiar as your target and have it do the same.
Ta-da!

[Dairun Cates]

Must disagree in part. If you make a wizard and don't have a clear concept or strategy, you'll end up with a tier 2-3 character.

Oh no?

So you're STILL in a ridiculously powerful tier when you fail to optimize a character at all? Doesn't that just give more heft to the argument than anything? After all, Tier 2-3 are STILL considered to be powerful tiers that you should be careful about.

Although, honestly, if you're in a game where ANYONE is talking about Tiers, some level of optimization is kinda assumed. It's not the kind of phrase casual D&D players throw around.


I'm surprised that some people claim to be able to break any game with pun-pun with the only downside being that they may have to dodge a book. Anything you can break the dm can break better. Which means that when just before you start your infinite stat loop or other thing that is egregious some number of highly capable casters deal with you. PERMANENTLY.

Yeah. But let's be honest, if you as a GM let it get to this point, they did break your game as you have to go out of your way to assert said dominance. It's just easier to ban it outright.

[Defiant]

I want to reiterate this.


Why even bother?

What is the point? I can't possibly fathom any point to actually wanting to play pun-pun. You don't even need to attend the D&D sessions anymore. You can just pre-emptively announce that you can take down anything the DM throws at you or the party.

In fact, just copy out the pun-pun build you found on the Internet on a piece of paper, and you're done. You don't need to play D&D anymore.

[icefractal]

So you're STILL in a ridiculously powerful tier when you fail to optimize a character at all? Doesn't that just give more heft to the argument than anything? After all, Tier 2-3 are STILL considered to be powerful tiers that you should be careful about.I wouldn't quite say that. While you don't need to optimize a Wizard very far to be effective, a Wizard with the wrong choices can still be weak as all get out.

How to make a Bad Wizard (without being obvious about it):
1) Pick a combination of the weaker blasting spells and the more niche utility spells.
1b) With enough books at your disposal, there are actually lousy spells in every category, even BC.
2) Pick metamagic feats that you can't use effectively yet, such as Empower Spell at 5th level.

[J.Gellert]

Must disagree in part. If you make a wizard and don't have a clear concept or strategy, you'll end up with a tier 2-3 character.

I don't know... There are so many "I win." spells that I have to respectfully disagree. Sure, you aren't as great as a wizard with double your spells/day and double your caster level, but Tier 3?

Can we have fractional tiers? Maybe 1,5 :smalltongue: