Building a Rogue

[Strife Warzeal]

Okay for a campaign I am playing as a rogue. It is more of a City(role-play) game opposed to dungeon-crawling (roll-play). Are there variants that could help? I want to be more of a utility/skill-monkey type character.
Ask more specific questions if you need more info on what I'm doing/need.

[Gavinfoxx]

What edition?

What level are you starting?

What are the other classes?

What are the books you have available?

How okay is the DM with splatbook diving?

What rules or house rules will be in effect?

What is the ability score generation method? What, in general, can you tell us about the character generation process for this game?

Are you married to the rogue class, or do you just want to do the rogue role?

What do you consider the rogue role?

What is the dm's style, as best you know?

Has the DM banned any sources?

Are there any sources or subsystems that the DM hasn't banned, but that he doesn't like / doesn't understand / considers distasteful?

[Strife Warzeal]

What edition? 3.5 (sorry forgot to list that)

What level are you starting? Level 5

What are the other classes? It's hard to explain, I'll try, It is essentially a town-builder. Classes and Races give various bonuses like a bard can host a festival, or a rogue can found a Thieves' guild. So other classes don't matter too much.

What are the books you have available? Currently unknown, will ask them.

How okay is the DM with splatbook diving? I'm fairly certain they don't mind too much, probably will need to know how to find it/full description

What rules or house rules will be in effect?

What is the ability score generation method? What, in general, can you tell us about the character generation process for this game? I don't know what you mean by that but what I have for scores is: 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13(I think I got rather lucky) or 36 point-buy

Are you married to the rogue class, or do you just want to do the rogue role? The role

What do you consider the rogue role? Social skills, stealthy

What is the dm's style, as best you know? I don't know, Myth-weavers, I haven't played with them before.

Has the DM banned any sources? will find out

Are there any sources or subsystems that the DM hasn't banned, but that he doesn't like / doesn't understand / considers distasteful?
[/QUOTE]
Okay, filled out your questions to the best I can until I can ask the DM a few questions.


Okay checked, and it is on a case-by-case basis for books/splatbooks. Nothing is outright banned except for Divine Metamagic (not that that matters much).

[Incanur]

A human rogue 5 with highish Int sounds solid to me. Make sure to put points in Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate.

[Strife Warzeal]

A human rogue 5 with highish Int sounds solid to me. Make sure to put points in Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate.

Yeah that seemed the obvious thing, but I was just curious if the playground had thoughts for nice things to go for. Like check out this book, or this variant, or whatever else is helpful.

[Incanur]

The Urban Tracking feat from Cityscape might be useful.

[Curmudgeon]

For a non-dungeon setting, I suggest you take advantage of alternative class features that don't involve traps. If you play a Changeling you can trade trapfinding to get greater skill use with Changeling Rogue substitution levels; see Races of Eberron on page 122. Alternatively for a Borgia-type intrigue setting, the Poison Use ACF (Drow of the Underdark, page 58) trades trapfinding for poison use (and no, you don't have to be a Drow to take this). As for trap sense, I recommend the Lightbringer Penetrating Strike ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208) as a replacement; this gives you ½ normal sneak attack dice against sneak-immune enemies you flank.

If you want to enter Shadowdancer at level 8 (because being able to sneak around anywhere is highly useful) then you should buy Mobility as an armor enhancement which grants the feat; see Magic Item Compendium on page 13. Note that you don't need to wear actual armor to be able to get armor enhancements. You can add armor enhancements to Bracers of Armor instead; see Arms and Equipment Guide on page 130.

[gorfnab]

Changeling Rogues with the racial substitution make excellent social based rogues. Another rogue-ish type class to look into would be the Beguiler. It has the basic rogue abilities with a decent amount of spellcasting thrown in. Also here is a fairly useful Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233).

[Strife Warzeal]

Okay I have made up his basic skill set and all that (I did go changeling for those that care) now I need to pick out gear. The starting gold is 9,000 and no item can be over 2,250. Any specifics on what to pick up?
And feats to pick out also.

[Curmudgeon]

Get Bracers of Armor +1, for 1,000 gp. You can add Mobility (+1 cost enhancement) later, for another 3,000 gp.

Get a bunch of Masterwork Tools (50 gp each), for the various skills you think you'll need. These are frequently overlooked, and they shouldn't be.

A Heward's Handy Haversack costs 2,000 gp and keeps you from worrying about how much gear you can carry.

[Strife Warzeal]

Any tips on what my Craft () checks should be? I like the idea of starting a mercantile empire with whatever I make.

[Sophistemon]

You can't go wrong with a Belt of Healing, or so I've been told.

[Strife Warzeal]

You can't go wrong with a Belt of Healing, or so I've been told.

That will help with my lowish (only 26 at level 5, and half of it is thanks to my CON score) HP.

I have a decent UMD score if I have left over money tips on wands?

[Curmudgeon]

I suggest skipping Craft entirely; it's a huge time sink for very little profit. D&D isn't about mercantile endeavors. You'd make more money with ranks in Perform (Dance) (5 needed for Shadowdancer entry) than with ranks in Craft skills. Craft checks are made after a week's work, yielding a small number of silver pieces in value added. Perform can easily get you 3d10 silver pieces per day (not per week) in a prosperous city at level 5 (8 ranks, a MW tool for +2, and you "take 10", so you succeed at DC 20 with any Charisma score of 10 or higher).

As for feats, go for Dodge and Combat Reflexes in preparation for becoming an awesome spy/reconnoiter artist when you dip into Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight.

[Escheton]

Appraise and Prof:(trader/merchant) might be fun.
Add in bluff/sense motive and get yourself a pawnshop just outside the main market.
Buy and sell stolen thiefguild loot, have people owe you for buying their goods. Gather information so much easyer.

With 9k you start small, but it's full of flavor. And part of the shop will like be funded by the thiefguild, though you would be in their pocket.

[Strife Warzeal]

Appraise and Prof:(trader/merchant) might be fun.
Add in bluff/sense motive and get yourself a pawnshop just outside the main market.
Buy and sell stolen thiefguild loot, have people owe you for buying their goods. Gather information so much easyer.

With 9k you start small, but it's full of flavor. And part of the shop will like be funded by the thiefguild, though you would be in their pocket.

Actually (assuming I read the DM right) we are the leader of the town/fief, and how I want it to be, the leader of the thieves guild.

Just a 1 level dip in Shadowdancer?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

yeah, usually just one level dip for shadowdancer. Though, second level isnt bad either, what with the Darkvision, evasion, and uncanny Dodge. You probably already get those from Rogue class levels, but that just means (since you get them twice) you can swap out the rogue evasion and Uncanny Dodge for other ACF.

[Gavinfoxx]

You might want to consider Factotum instead of rogue, perhaps? Ask the DM what sort of 'town theme' things a Factotum could do that a rogue couldn't. Also ask the same for the Beguiler class. Also ask the same about the Psychic Rogue variant.

[Strife Warzeal]

You might want to consider Factotum instead of rogue, perhaps? Ask the DM what sort of 'town theme' things a Factotum could do that a rogue couldn't. Also ask the same for the Beguiler class. Also ask the same about the Psychic Rogue variant.

What I'm getting at, opposed to Factotum and I do know how good they are when it comes to skills, is that I'm going for a leader of the thieves guild thing.

[Gavinfoxx]

Uh, basically, Factotums are BETTER than rogues at being Skill Monkeys.

Here's the factotum handbook. Note that lots of the advice won't be relevent to your campaign. Also note there are a few jokes in the handbook:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0

Also here is the poison user's handbook. Note that because of a few specific rules, craft poison is the only useful craft skill for actually making money...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0

Also be sure to read the replies in the factotum handbook!

[Curmudgeon]

Uh, basically, Factotums are BETTER than rogues at being Skill Monkeys.
Not quite. Factotums start out with a boost because of Cunning Knowledge and Brains over Brawn, but they fall behind over time. Rogues have 2 extra skill points each level. When the Rogue reaches level 10 and can acquire Skill Mastery, that's an effective boost of +9 ranks in (typically 7-8) skills with a fixed target DC (such as 40 to make a 10' adjustment with Tumble instead of a 5' step, or 35 to change an NPC from hostile to friendly with Diplomacy) because you no longer need to allow for rolls in the 1-9 range on your mastered skills; that's like gaining 63-72 skill ranks over the Factotum. At level 12 the Rogue can acquire Savvy Rogue and then "take 12" on those skills, for an effective gain of another 14-16 skill ranks.

At higher levels, for those important skillmonkey jobs that get done repeatedly, the Rogue simply leaves the Factotum in the dust.

[Escheton]

At which point the factotum arrowNOVA's every encounter away...
ow, and mimics the ability...

[Gavinfoxx]

I don't think the Rogue leaves the factotum in the dust, because the factotum can use his skill ranks *more efficiently* than the rogue can use his; he has class features that make it so he only has to spend one point or a minimum of points to get blatantly high checks on a large number of skills, he can max extremely useful obscure skills, he can use lots of abilities that obsolete skills entirely, and have more savings, his intelligence is added to checks, he has EVERY skill as a class skill, etc. etc.

Remember, the factotum, especially if going into Chameleon, can MAGICALLY CRAFT, and then UMD / UPD spells to get any extremely high DC checks on anything he regularly needs high DC on, AND he can do the poison minor creation thing better than a rogue can...

Okay, potentially, if you want to make 400 Disable Device checks of an extremely high DC in a single ultra extended encounter, than yes, the Rogue might be better. But using skills as they come up in the game? Factotum.

[Strife Warzeal]

Not quite. Factotums start out with a boost because of Cunning Knowledge and Brains over Brawn, but they fall behind over time. Rogues have 2 extra skill points each level. When the Rogue reaches level 10 and can acquire Skill Mastery, that's an effective boost of +9 ranks in (typically 7-8) skills with a fixed target DC (such as 40 to make a 10' adjustment with Tumble instead of a 5' step, or 35 to change an NPC from hostile to friendly with Diplomacy) because you no longer need to allow for rolls in the 1-9 range on your mastered skills; that's like gaining 63-72 skill ranks over the Factotum. At level 12 the Rogue can acquire Savvy Rogue and then "take 12" on those skills, for an effective gain of another 14-16 skill ranks.

At higher levels, for those important skillmonkey jobs that get done repeatedly, the Rogue simply leaves the Factotum in the dust.

What skills do you think I should get mastery in? I have a choice of 7(if I take it once). I was thinking:
Tumble,
Bluff,
Diplomacy,
Intimidate,
Use Magic Device,
Move Silently,
Hide.

[Gavinfoxx]

Are you getting Darkstalker, if you expect to actually be hiding? DO you expect to actually be hiding in this game?

Also, wait for a few second opinions and ask around for the rogue vs factotum thing for this sort of game... it's not a standard game, and you should at least pay attention to the sorts of things the Factotum can do that the rogue CAN'T... of which there are quite a lot...

There are a few Factotum experts around here, ask about the tricks of the trade...

Here's how I would do it

I'd take some flaws, and get some feats like Master of Poisons, Able Learner (so you retain all skills as class skills when you go Chameleon), Nymph's Kiss for some extra skill points (this, sadly, is exalted... ask your dm about that...), Darkstalker for hiding, maybe Item Familiar to dramatically increase a few specific favored skills, maybe a few Font of Inspirations...

Eventually you'll want an +1 Aptitude, Feycraft, Pandemonic Silver Gnomish Quickrazor... Maybe go Assassination / Toxic / Virulent if you want to do the poison thing...

[Strife Warzeal]

Do you think a thief would decide to just be walking around stealing without trying to hide? Just because it's leading a town, doesn't mean you aren't sneaking around.

[Escheton]

If you are leading the town, you are beyond stealing. It's called tax at that point.
And a good diplomacycheck will have your town put up with quite a hefty sum.

[Strife Warzeal]

Why steal from my place? It is only a small town still. I steal from a nearby city and sell their stuff. That's my plan any ways. Until my town gets bigger that is. Then I do that and offer 'protection' so it won't happen again as long as they pay for it.

[Gavinfoxx]

There are a number of ways to get money and items without having to hide or move silently, from neighboring town without them knowing it was you, or killing anyone, or things like that. It doesn't REQUIRE hide and move silently to be at extreme levels.

You could do confidence scams. You could intimidate them. You could do disguise based things and look like you're supposed to be wherever you are, and bluff your way in. You could drug people. You could pay guards off. You could use spells to make all the relevant people befuddled. There are LOTS of ways to go about this...

ALSO: been editing previous posts of mine in this thread. look at them!

[absolmorph]

At which point the factotum arrowNOVA's every encounter away...
ow, and mimics the ability...
Oh?

Okay for a campaign I am playing as a rogue. It is more of a City(role-play) game opposed to dungeon-crawling (roll-play). Are there variants that could help? I want to be more of a utility/skill-monkey type character.
Ask more specific questions if you need more info on what I'm doing/need.
I'm sure the ability to kill everything will be so handy to his skillmonkey character in a role-play heavy campaign.

That said:
Factotums are supposed to be people who look for obscure knowledge and use it. From the sounds of things, it doesn't sound like you need the most powerful option available.

If you can, try to play a Whisper Gnome. You get a racial bonus to Dex, Hide (total of +8, since you're small and get a +4) and Move Silently, and Darkvision. Definitely plays to the needs of a stealthy character.
Get a Gnomish Quickrazor in order to remain armed even when it's unexpected. Put some effort into your Sleight of Hand check (assuming the 18 is in Dex, 8 ranks, +5 Dex, +2 synergy gives a total of +15, +19 to hide your quickrazor) and you'll be able to surprise any attempts to off you.
Get your armor enchanted with Shadow and Silent Moves soon. See if you can get a custom item of Sleight of Hand (a +5 would be 2500 gp, a +10 would be 10000 gp).
Put ranks into Forgery. Whenever possible, have papers prepared that say you have authorization to be where you are. Forgery is opposed by Forgery, which isn't a class skill for any PHB classes but Rogue. Pick up a Hat of Disguise (1800 gp) and keep Disguise ranks up. Have a mundane disguise and magical disguise.
Make some papers that say you are allowed to enter the vault of a bank. Have your Hat on and a disguise underneath as a halfling. With a +4 Int modifier, you can easily get a +14 bonus on Forgery (8 ranks, +4 Int, +2 masterwork tool). Take 10 (you're under no stress as long as you're doing it beforehand) and they have to make a Forgery check of 32 (+8 from it being non-specific hand-writing). Fill up your Haversack inside, walk out. Smile at your DM and thank him for running the wonderful campaign in the hopes that it will assuage his anger.
Alternatively, get one of your friends to take over the town and set up an investigative force. Forge their identification for yourself and, pardon the pun, go to town and indulge your kleptomania.

[Greenish]

I nth the suggestion for Darkstalker (LoM feat). It allows you to hide from most senses. For example, you can hide from guard dogs that could otherwise find you with their Scent.