So you've fallen into lava...

[Tyger]

What happens next?

You fail your save and the trap opens under you. You plunge into the lava, taking xd6 damage.

Then you take xd6 damage every round. But when in the round do you take the damage?

Does everyone in the lava take the damage at the beginning? The end? Their own turn?

And if you are a spell caster, and want to cast your way out of the lava, does the damage you take from being in it count as damage "during your spellcasting action" or as "ongoing damage" for the purposes of the Concentration DC?

[WeeFreeMen]

Id rule for the sake of common sense that the Lava damage happens right before their turn (Actually on their turn as a swift action of sorts), but that they don't get a chance to react from it until they've taken the initial blow.

Without the initial burn they wouldn't have a natural reaction to begin with.
Thats my 2cents atleast.

[KillianHawkeye]

I would definitely rule that as "continuous damage" for the Concentration check.

[Tyger]

I should be clear... we're looking for the RAW answer. We came up with a houserule, but want to know what was supposed to happen.

[Amiel]

According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#lavaEffects), lava "deals 2d6 points of damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of damage per round."

Now, by "per round of exposure", damage presumably refers to the round that the character is first subjected to the environmental effect.

[Saph]

What happens next?

You fail your save and the trap opens under you. You plunge into the lava, taking xd6 damage.

Then you take xd6 damage every round. But when in the round do you take the damage?

If you're taking the damage once per round, then the next set of damage will have to be 1 round after the last set of damage (which means one round's worth of actions).

If you're doing this in combat rounds, it's easy - the lava hits on whatever initiative count the player was dropped into the lava on. So if they're dropped into the lava on initiative count 16, they take the damage every round on initiative count 16.

If the character is dropped into lava out of combat, then as far as I know there's no strict rule as to when the damage hits. In practice, it doesn't matter when the damage happens just so long as you keep it fair - the characters have to get exactly one round's worth of actions between each lava hit.

So the sequence is:

1. Dropped into lava
2. Take 20d6 damage
3. Character gets a full round of actions
4. Are they still in the lava? If yes, go to 2.

And regarding spellcasting, while in the lava, the damage will definitely be "ongoing damage". It's similar to an acid arrow spell.

[Tyger]

According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#lavaEffects), lava "deals 2d6 points of damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of damage per round."

Now, by "per round of exposure", damage presumably refers to the round that the character is first subjected to the environmental effect.

Not to be snarky, but what would that mean? You fall into a trap (usually) out of initiative, so you don't know when in the round.

We compromised by rolling initiative for the lava and having it damage on its turn, but this was really counter-intuitive, but necessary to see if we could get one person out (two never fell in, three did. Of those three, two could survive one round and get themselves out in time. The last one (my bard) not so much...) before he sustained the damage, which would instantly kill him.

But this isn't RAW, and maybe even not RAI. What we were trying to find (and couldn't) is the rule for when such ongoing damage is applied. 4e is very clear on this, damage happens at the end of your turn. But we couldn't find the rule.

Most ongoing damage is from a spell, which means the target takes the damage on the spell caster's turn. But lava...

So, and RAW guidance, or did we do the best we could by houseruling it?

[Tyger]

If you're taking the damage once per round, then the next set of damage will have to be 1 round after the last set of damage (which means one round's worth of actions).

If you're doing this in combat rounds, it's easy - the lava hits on whatever initiative count the player was dropped into the lava on. So if they're dropped into the lava on initiative count 16, they take the damage every round on initiative count 16.

If the character is dropped into lava out of combat, then as far as I know there's no strict rule as to when the damage hits. In practice, it doesn't matter when the damage happens just so long as you keep it fair - the characters have to get exactly one round's worth of actions between each lava hit.

So the sequence is:

1. Dropped into lava
2. Take 20d6 damage
3. Character gets a full round of actions
4. Are they still in the lava? If yes, go to 2.

And regarding spellcasting, while in the lava, the damage will definitely be "ongoing damage". It's similar to an acid arrow spell.

Ah, Saph makes it clear. Seems like that isn't quite the answer we were hoping for, but it makes the most sense. I just wish it was written down somewhere in the rules.

[KillianHawkeye]

I should be clear... we're looking for the RAW answer. We came up with a houserule, but want to know what was supposed to happen.

Well, since you didn't specify that you were looking for a RAW answer, how were we supposed to know that?? :smallconfused::smallsigh::smallannoyed:

[Tyger]

Well, since you didn't specify that you were looking for a RAW answer, how were we supposed to know that?? :smallconfused::smallsigh::smallannoyed:

Well... I suppose I always assume when someone asks a rules question, they are looking for a RAW answer. Maybe that's just me though. :smallconfused:

[Amiel]

Not to be snarky, but what would that mean? You fall into a trap (usually) out of initiative, so you don't know when in the round.

Depending on your interpretation and the mechanical nature of the trap, you may be dealt that "initial" 2d6 damage, since it counts as "exposure", after which you'll be dealt 20d6 damage as per immersion.

[The Rose Dragon]

When someone falls into lava (http://www.lavarules.com/), they die. No save.

[Tyger]

When someone falls into lava (http://www.lavarules.com/), they die. No save.

Yes. We know. But we're using the D&D rules. :smallbiggrin:

[tcrudisi]

4e is very clear on this, damage happens at the end beginning of your turn and you get a saving throw to get rid of it at the end of your turn.

Fixed that for you.

[Beorn080]

Aye. Treat it as combat with lava automatically getting the first move. Initiative doesn't matter too much otherwise, but it would help keep track of actions if you made everyone roll and act in order.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well... I suppose I always assume when someone asks a rules question, they are looking for a RAW answer. Maybe that's just me though. :smallconfused:

Well, you made an assumption, and in this case it backfired on you.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, you made an assumption, and in this case it backfired on you.

On the other hand, baselines can be good. Asking about rules and assuming your answers will actually be based on the rules, not people's personal opinions, is like going to the store to buy a loaf of bread and assuming that the baker won't have laced it with cyanide. It's a reasonable assumption in both cases, and not one deserving of mockery.

[Incanur]

People can survive encounters (http://volcano.oregonstate.edu/how-close-can-i-get-lava-and-will-it-hurt-or-kill-me) with lava in the real world, so I don't see what's so wrong with D&D characters doing the same. Note that you wouldn't really sink into the stuff unless you weigh more than liquid rock.

[Marnath]

People can survive encounters (http://volcano.oregonstate.edu/how-close-can-i-get-lava-and-will-it-hurt-or-kill-me) with lava in the real world, so I don't see what's so wrong with D&D characters doing the same. Note that you wouldn't really sink into the stuff unless you weigh more than liquid rock.

We had this discussion a while ago, and much SCIENCE! was tossed about. I think we agreed you'd end up about waist deep in it because of the density of rock vs. people. Which probably is enough to count as "immersion" in my opinion.

[Tyger]

Fixed that for you.

Whoops. Haven't played 4e in a while, and got them mixed up. Thanks!

And thanks Glyphstone.

[Achernar]

TL;DR: You reroll your character.:xykon: It's funny because it's true.

[Tyger]

TL;DR: You reroll your character.:xykon: It's funny because it's true.

It was close... only survived because we decided to roll initiative for the lava and have it act (incinerate the rest of us) on a particular turn. Was a close thing! Suffice it to say that both Dimension Door and Overland Flight will soon be appearing on my spell list. :)

[senrath]

I prefer using Fire Immunity (or high Fire Resistance) to deal with Lava, myself.

[Amiel]

So, just to recap, the character on their turn after falling into the trap is dealt:
2d6 damage; representation of exposure to lava, fluffwise this is the scalding heat and searing fire.
20d6 damage; representation of immersion in lava
If still in the lava, they are dealt another 20d6 points of fire damage until they are able to extricate themselves

[Tyger]

So, just to recap, the character on their turn after falling into the trap is dealt:
2d6 damage; representation of exposure to lava, fluffwise this is the scalding heat and searing fire.
20d6 damage; representation of immersion in lava
If still in the lava, they are dealt another 20d6 points of fire damage until they are able to extricate themselves

Yeah, that was the easy part which was already spelled out in the rules. It was, as was noted above, a question of when that last part was applied, as it can make a very, very big difference.

[tyckspoon]

I prefer using Fire Immunity (or high Fire Resistance) to deal with Lava, myself.

Lava's rather weird about that- despite being one of the very few non-magical things that can deal as much damage as a spell effect, as much as 1 point worth of Fire Resistance is enough to be completely immune to its effects.

[senrath]

Yeah. I figure it was a typo and that you're just supposed to treat lava as fire damage for the purposes of resistances, rather than being outright immune to it with any form of fire resistance.

[Amiel]

Yeah, that was the easy part which was already spelled out in the rules. It was, as was noted above, a question of when that last part was applied, as it can make a very, very big difference.

Well, the damage is spelled out as per round, so I guess they mean that you'll be dealt the full allotted damage every round until extrication is needed or concluded.


Lava's rather weird about that- despite being one of the very few non-magical things that can deal as much damage as a spell effect, as much as 1 point worth of Fire Resistance is enough to be completely immune to its effects.

Well, there's always drowning to contend with (which may be somewhat odd), "however, a creature immune to fire might still drown if completely immersed in lava."

[Tyger]

Well, the damage is spelled out as per round, so I guess they mean that you'll be dealt the full allotted damage every round until extrication is needed or concluded.

Yup, but when in the round? That's the question. Which Saph provided a pretty good answer, albeit just an interpretation. I was kind of hoping to find a "look at page 216 in the DMG" sort of answer, but you take what you can get. In this case, its from Saph, so its a great answer. :)

[Amiel]

A good thing about this is that it's open to interpretation, so a DM may rule that the damage comes first before your character's round of actions or after, or even throughout their turn, as long as the character is dealt damage per immersion.

Also, you would take 1d6 points of damage with no save since it is considered an extreme heat effect. "Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save every 5 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing heavy clothing or any sort of armor take a -4 penalty on their saves. In addition, those wearing metal armor are affected as if by a heat metal spell."

[KillianHawkeye]

Yup, but when in the round? That's the question. Which Saph provided a pretty good answer, albeit just an interpretation. I was kind of hoping to find a "look at page 216 in the DMG" sort of answer, but you take what you can get. In this case, its from Saph, so its a great answer. :)

This is basically why I didn't assume you wanted a RAW answer. Because there is no "look at page 216 in the DMG" answer for you. You paraphrased all of the relevant information in your opening post, so it seemed like you were asking for people's interpretations of when the damage actually happens.

Also, I did not at any point intend to be mocking. Sorry if I came across that way.

[Atcote]

When someone falls into lava (http://www.lavarules.com/), they die. No save.

Yeah, basically our groups attitude too. I mean, burning? Sure, that's fine. Does basically nothing, really. But you seriously fell into lava? Usually from a decent distance? That's one of the things you really, really should avoid, along with acid, poison and pools of gelatinous cubes.

It's harsh, certainly, so volcanoes don't really factor into our campaigns much, but unless there's magical protection in the mix, it really doesn't make sense to 'Take Damage' from something that's very adept at melting flesh and is now all around you.

[Tyger]

Yeah, basically our groups attitude too. I mean, burning? Sure, that's fine. Does basically nothing, really. But you seriously fell into lava? Usually from a decent distance? That's one of the things you really, really should avoid, along with acid, poison and pools of gelatinous cubes.

It's harsh, certainly, so volcanoes don't really factor into our campaigns much, but unless there's magical protection in the mix, it really doesn't make sense to 'Take Damage' from something that's very adept at melting flesh and is now all around you.

Yeah, its one of those places where D&D rules and reality take a sharp bend to the left. That said, from a story perspective, it is kind of interesting. And in a realm where people can create fire using a pinch of bat guano and some fancy words, surviving sliding into a 2 foot deep puddle of lava is the least of my "reality straining" concerns. :)

[PersonMan]

Yeah, basically our groups attitude too. I mean, burning? Sure, that's fine. Does basically nothing, really. But you seriously fell into lava? Usually from a decent distance? That's one of the things you really, really should avoid, along with acid, poison and pools of gelatinous cubes.

It's harsh, certainly, so volcanoes don't really factor into our campaigns much, but unless there's magical protection in the mix, it really doesn't make sense to 'Take Damage' from something that's very adept at melting flesh and is now all around you.

If you're at the level where you can eat 20d6 damage a round(60-70, usually), in my opinion, you're awesome enough to have a whole "walking through laval" thing going on.

Just like how how-level characters can drop into combat from orbit and come up swinging, it's because they're just that awesome.

[Zen Master]

We had this discussion a while ago, and much SCIENCE! was tossed about. I think we agreed you'd end up about waist deep in it because of the density of rock vs. people. Which probably is enough to count as "immersion" in my opinion.

And certainly enough to count as highly unpleasant and harmful. Though that's outside the scope of the rules discussion. It might also be described as 'ouch, hot, ouch-ouch!'

[Tyger]

And certainly enough to count as highly unpleasant and harmful. Though that's outside the scope of the rules discussion. It might also be described as 'ouch, hot, ouch-ouch!'

*chuckles* Yeah, my action, whilst in the lava with no way to get myself out, consisted of activating healing items and screaming. Hey, screaming is a free action, and entirely appropriate give the circumstances. :smallcool:

[Jan Mattys]

If you're at the level where you can eat 20d6 damage a round(60-70, usually), in my opinion, you're awesome enough to have a whole "walking through laval" thing going on.

Hit points are not what you think they are.

[PersonMan]

Hit points are not what you think they are.

There have been entire theads' worth of arguments about hit points. If you're going to say dodging/blocking/etc, I'd like to ask how you block or dodge(or are narrowly missed by) being on fire, dropping 10,000 feet or swimming in acid.

[some guy]

Am I the only one who constantly misreads this thread's title as "So you've fallen in love..."?

[Person_Man]

What Saph said.

Also, though it's not entirely clear in the core rules (because they hadn't worked it out that thoroughly at the time) an encounter starts the moment a DM decides that it starts - generally when the PCs become aware that there may be a danger - a trap springs, or an enemy decides to attack the PCs, or the PCs decide to attack an enemy. At the beginning of an encounter everyone is Flat Footed. This means that they can't take Immediate Actions, and denies them their Dexterity bonus to AC, and may effect their Reflex Saves (certain Feats and abilities don't function when you're denied your Dex).

Thus PCs can't cast an Immediate Action spell like Feather Fall or a Quickened spell like Dimension Door in reaction to a trap or danger, unless the DM rules that the encounter started before they wanted to take the action. So if they're in a dungeon and the Rogue is walks up to a door and announces that he's checking for traps, an alert Wizard will stand far away and announce that he is aware that a trap might spring at any moment and is prepared. But if they're just walking around and a trap springs, everyone is Flat Footed.

[Esser-Z]

You don't fall into lava, you fall onto it. You make sink down some, slowly, but you're not going to splash in--unless you're made of rock or metal or something--more of a splat. See, Lava is indeed a liquid, but it's also rock. It's dense and viscous.

[Eldonauran]

Hit points are not what you think they are.

I like to think of 'hit points' as how much time you have left until your adrenaline runs out and you actually feel the effects of the battle, or you die, whichever comes first. Think lethal damage. This can be minor nicks, cut, bruises, blunt for trauma, etc.

Non-lethal damage, I simply see as fatigue (muscle fatigue, mental fatigue, lack of energy due to lack of food/water/etc) that can be ignored to a certain extent until your body is exhausted.

How magic applies to this (includes acid damage/fire damage/etc) is simple to me when I apply my understanding of HP (may not be right but makes sense to me).

Player 1: OMG, you just fell in LAVA!
Player 2: It wasnt that deep.
Player 1: But look at your back, its covered in blisters and ... and I see some blackened bits!
Player 2: .... Its a flesh wound. *worried expression* Maybe I'll have the healer look at it.

*3 minutes later after the rush of battle fades*

Player 2: OH GODS, THE PAIN!
Cleric: Silence you wuss. Hold still so I can heal you.

So, yeah. Roleplaying ... it makes sense. Actual mechanical RAW rules, leaves a bit to the imagination. But who doesn't have a Mend spell and healing at the ready?

[woodenbandman]

http://lavarules.com/

[PersonMan]

I like to think of 'hit points' as how much time you have left until your adrenaline runs out and you actually feel the effects of the battle, or you die, whichever comes first. Think lethal damage. This can be minor nicks, cut, bruises, blunt for trauma, etc.

-Snip-

Whereas I tend to think of HP as how much you can just ignore damage.

Player 1: Dude, are you alright?
Player 2: Yeah, it's just a few cuts.
Player 1: I can see your rib cage, and...is that your heart over there?
Player 2: It's fine, I learned how to deal with this kind of thing at the Academy.
Player 3: Well, I'll heal you so you don't die the moment someone hits you again, alright?
Player 2: Sure, thanks. To be honest, this does kind of sting.

As long as we don't end up in a situation where it matters, I'm fine to just accept that your definition is different from mine and leave it at that.

------------

On topic, I'd just go with the player taking damage at the beginning of their round-sort of like taking a free action to bask in the lava.

[Eldonauran]

Whereas I tend to think of HP as how much you can just ignore damage.

Player 1: Dude, are you alright?
Player 2: Yeah, it's just a few cuts.
Player 1: I can see your rib cage, and...is that your heart over there?
Player 2: It's fine, I learned how to deal with this kind of thing at the Academy.
Player 3: Well, I'll heal you so you don't die the moment someone hits you again, alright?
Player 2: Sure, thanks. To be honest, this does kind of sting.

As long as we don't end up in a situation where it matters, I'm fine to just accept that your definition is different from mine and leave it at that.

Actually, thats not so different than what I had in mind. I just substituted 'adrenaline' as an example of why they can ignore the pain (not feel it) until they can't hold themselves together any more. Internal organs being elsewhere on the battle field, on the other hand, is a bit more of a reach to me but I think we are almost on the same page regarding hit points. :smallwink:

[Talya]

When someone falls into lava (http://www.lavarules.com/), they die. No save.



Ah, someone of course beat me to this. I was hoping it was more obscure than that. :)