miko's afterlife [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Kish

2010-12-12, 02:33 PM

so miko died and has regular visits from her horse. does that mean that she still went to mount celestia? is there a heaven for crazy lawful good ppl? or did she slip into arcadia or bytopia?
i was just wondering that if roy or durkon dies would they meet with her and decide to go to hell instead
We haven't been given enough information to know where she went.

People often assert that it's obvious. People say that the line about Windstriker visiting her as much as he is able proves that she's in an Upper Plane (because Windstriker couldn't visit her in the Nine Hells) and that she's not in an Upper Plane (because there would be no limits on visiting her in Celestia). People say "she was obviously X alignment and therefore she is in Y." But, in the end, the information in the comic isn't enough to know where she went, nor do I ever expect Rich to change that.

We do, however, know exactly what happened when Roy died. Durkon shows no sign of particularly wanting to avoid her, much less enough to choose to go to a Lower Plane.

hamishspence

2010-12-12, 02:34 PM

Its been speculated a lot.

Acheron, as a LN plane (but still technically a Lower Plane) could have deities which allow paladins.

I'm not entirely sure if all the 12 gods actually reside in Celestia- they might represent every afterlife that does not have the Evil tag.

In DMG, there are 12 afterlives which are not at least mildly Evil (and 5 that are either mildly evil or strongly evil).

If Rat's home (Rat is an ally of the Dark One, but still one of the twelve gods)

is considered one of the places that celestial servants of the 12 gods such as paladin warhorses, can visit at their own discretion, in their spare time,

and if Rat resides in Acheron, then, at worst, Miko could go to Acheron, and yet still receive visits, still be in the home of one of the 12 gods, and be in a plane that is not Evil aligned.

This is, however, the most pessimistic view of Miko's afterlife that seems feasible to me.

A more optimistic view, might place Miko in the Upper Planes, or even in Celestia itself, but outside the "paladin-only area".

Burner28

2010-12-12, 02:39 PM

hamishspence

2010-12-12, 02:52 PM

Not just after she killed Shojo-

but after she attacked a then-unarmed Hinjo, and attempted to kill him when, while down, he dropped his weapon and raised his hands.

There's also her destruction of the gate, but hardly anyone can agree on if this was an aggravating factor or a mitigating factor- so I'd go with the first two.

A murder, an attempted murder- and no attempts at atonement, nor any obvious repentance for either act before death.

The phrase used in War & XPs:

"She pushed and pushed on the boundaries of what it means to be Lawful Good and a paladin, until finally she broke through"

may imply that she did indeed have an alignment change though.

Given that you can have LG people in Acheron, and LN people in Celestia, if you assume Miko was still close to Lawful Good in some way, Acheron, Mechanus, Arcadia, and Celestia are all valid candidates.

Burner28

2010-12-12, 02:55 PM

Not just after she killed Shojo-

but after she attacked a then-unarmed Hinjo, and attempted to kill him when, while down, he dropped his weapon and raised his hands.

There's also her destruction of the gate, but hardly anyone can agree on if this was an aggravating factor or a mitigating factor- so I'd go with the first two.

A murder, an attempted murder- and no attempts at atonement, nor any obvious repentance for either act before death.

Yep though the killing of Shojo was the worst. She is definetly no longer any Good alignment at all.

The phrase used in War & XPs:

"She pushed and pushed on the boundaries of what it means to be Lawful Good and a paladin, until finally she broke through"

Hmm... Intersesting

hamishspence

2010-12-12, 02:58 PM

I'd say she was still obsessed with "justice" even if willing to break the law.
Thus, LN seems like a slightly more plausible alignment than TN or CN.

Burner28

2010-12-12, 03:11 PM

I'd say she was still obsessed with "justice" even if willing to break the law.
Thus, LN seems like a slightly more plausible alignment than TN or CN.

Well in the Stickverse the law does matter to some extent as shown by the fact the deva considered Roy working behind the paladins to be chaotic, though I'm not too sure she turned Neutral. After all what she did, especially the killing of Shojo, doesn't really reflect Neutrality.

Kish

2010-12-12, 03:13 PM

She is definetly no longer any Good alignment at all.
People say "she was obviously X alignment and therefore she is in Y."
Cough cough.

hamishspence

2010-12-12, 03:14 PM

Lawful person + some Chaotic behaviour might mean shift to Neutral- since alignment shifts usually only go one step on either axis unless the deed is very, very big.

So TN is an option- though I'd go with LN. Her behaviour, if Chaotic, still doesn't seem Chaotic enough for that big an alignment shift.

She was close enough to LN already in my view, that a shift for two serious acts, seemed workable.

Whether this would be enough for the judges at Celestia to say "Not only are you LN, but your acts are serious enough to keep you out" is harder to say though.

I'm not saying she was definitely LN, but I do think at the moment that it is more plausible than LG.

Burner28

2010-12-12, 03:16 PM

Cough cough.

Don't forget that what she did was pretty serious. Still her alignment is debatable.... Best not to go there.. or should I

martianmister

2010-12-12, 03:19 PM

I still see her as a LG...

Burner28

2010-12-12, 03:25 PM

I still see her as a LG...

:smallconfused::smallconfused: since when was killing the innocent a reflection of what it means to be Good?

Kish

2010-12-12, 03:30 PM

Burner28

2010-12-12, 03:35 PM

...Since when is innocent anywhere near an accurate description of Shojo? If Miko hadn't killed him, Hinjo would have had him locked up, almost certainly for the (short)* rest of his life.

*I just realized what this looked like. The rest of his life would have been short, not because his nephew would have had him assassinated--of course he wouldn't have--but because he was old.

Considering the fact she fell for killing him, yeah, he qualifies under Dnd terms despite the fact he is a lying, manipulative jerk. Not that killing him for that would have been anything but disproportionate

Kish

2010-12-12, 03:37 PM

This is a circular argument. Miko fell for killing the innocent! Why would we call this lying criminal innocent? Because killing him caused a paladin to fall!

She fell for, as Haley described it, killing her defenseless liege lord. The fact that he broke the law all over the place and was far from innocent doesn't enter into it.

Burner28

2010-12-12, 03:38 PM

Because killing him caused a paladin to fall!

Exactly:smallamused:

Kish

2010-12-12, 03:40 PM

You are aware that it's possible for a paladin to fall and not change alignment, aren't you?

hamishspence

2010-12-12, 03:40 PM

The fact that he broke the law all over the place and was far from innocent doesn't enter into it.

Broke the rules of the Sapphire Guard, yes.

But, according to the War & XPs guide to Azure City, he was at least theoretically an absolute monarch, even if in practice he was accountable to the law.

You are aware that it's possible for a paladin to fall and not change alignment, aren't you?

sure- but "pushed and pushed on the boundaries of what it means to be Lawful Good" is a bit more suggestive.

Burner28

2010-12-12, 03:43 PM

You are aware that it's possible for a paladin to fall and not change alignment, aren't you?

Yes you can, but as I said( and i hope not to repeat this),what Miko did was as far away from Good and into Evil as you need to get to suggest that maybe you are not Good anymore,:smallamused:

martianmister

2010-12-12, 03:45 PM

Roy could be LG contrary to his chaotic tendencies. Then Miko can be LG in spite of her some "evil" acts.

Burner28

2010-12-12, 03:46 PM

Roy could be LG contrary to his chaotic tendencies. Then Miko can be LG in spite of her some "evil" acts.

Well amongst said evil acts involved killing her defenceless liege. Do you realise how serious that is?!?

Zmflavius

2010-12-12, 03:48 PM

While we're on this subject, Roy's Deva tells him that most of the time, it's the effort that counts. Hence, Roy has at times slipped dangerously close to TN, but because he made the effort to be LG, he passes.

littlekKID

2010-12-12, 03:58 PM

Well amongst said evil acts involved killing her defenceless liege. Do you realise how serious that is?!?

Oh, crap
listen, if we're going to argue about Miko's alignment, we'll be here all day :smallannoyed:

KillItWithFire

2010-12-12, 04:20 PM

Well since the afterlife Miko gets into is almost entirely dependent on her alignment... I'd say this is just a disguise for another Miko alignment thread.

hamishspence

2010-12-12, 04:25 PM

Well since the afterlife Miko gets into is almost entirely dependent on her alignment... I'd say this is just a disguise for another Miko alignment thread.

As I said- it can be, but isn't always.
Sometimes LG characters can go to planes other than Celestia.
Conversely, sometimes LN characters can go to Celestia.

If Miko went from being "follower of LG Celestia member of the 12 Gods pantheon" to being unknowingly "follower of Rat, the LN-borderline-LE Acheron member"

(this is my speculation on how the 12 gods are organized though- one to each non-Evil-aligned Upper Plane)

then, this might allow her to go to another plane than Celestia whether her alignment changed or not.

faustin

2010-12-12, 04:58 PM

That argument was posted before, but you must remember that Roy ALMOST get dumped into the True Neutral afterlife despite his heroics deeds ONLY for abandoning Elan with the thieves´campament. The Deva forgave him ONLY because he came back to rescue E and the rest of TOoS and because Roy saved Elan again in the Hotel with the Gender Belt.
As the Deva said, Roy made mistakes but he constantly tried to improve and do better next time. As Soon said, Miko NEVER recognised the error of her ways and refugeed herself into delusion and hubris. Roy´s deeds were focused on helping people, on the contrary Miko´s were focused to prove everyone how special she was, the better and most important paladin of the Sapphire Guard. And that makes a HUGE difference.

hamishspence

2010-12-12, 05:02 PM

That argument was posted before, but you must remember that Roy ALMOST get dumped into the True Neutral afterlife despite his heroics deeds ONLY for abandoning Elan with the thieves´campament. The Deva forgave him ONLY because he came back to rescue E and the rest of TOoS and because Roy saved Elan again in the Hotel with the Gender Belt.
As the Deva said, Roy made mistakes but he constantly tried to improve and do better next time.

Something worth remembering when assessing "how strict" the afterlife judgement will be in other OOTS cases.

Kish

2010-12-12, 05:03 PM

As long as we're no longer claiming Shojo was innocent.

hamishspence

2010-12-12, 05:10 PM

As long as we're no longer claiming Shojo was innocent.

Might depend on what standard you're using.

Paladins like Hinjo are expected to "punish those who harm or threaten innocent life"- Miko has killed Shojo.

Is Hinjo required to at least try and see Miko punished for that?
Or not?

Does innocent mean "not guilty of any crime" or merely "not guilty of any crime that would normally warrant a death sentence" in the context of D&D?

faustin

2010-12-12, 05:14 PM

Shojo was culprit, and as Hinjo pointed he musted to be judged according with azurite laws. Cool blood assassination was NOT an appropiate lawful good response, and seems that the Twelve Gods agreed in that point of view.

Kish

2010-12-12, 05:14 PM

The only standard that I can think of that would make Shojo innocent would be "if you're not actually evil, you're innocent." Roy certainly didn't think he was innocent--in fact, I can't think of a single good (or otherwise, for that matter) character in the story who does, except the comically-stupid "what was so bad about your uncle?" Elan.

hamishspence

2010-12-12, 05:22 PM

The only standard that I can think of that would make Shojo innocent would be "if you're not actually evil, you're innocent."

A person can be evil and "not guilty of any crime that would carry the death sentence by default"

Conversely, a person might be not evil, and yet guilty of a traditionally "death-penalty-crime".

The Pilgrim

2010-12-12, 05:39 PM

Warren Dew

2010-12-12, 06:02 PM

I'm not entirely sure if all the 12 gods actually reside in Celestia- they might represent every afterlife that does not have the Evil tag.

What makes you think none of them are evil?

That argument was posted before, but you must remember that Roy ALMOST get dumped into the True Neutral afterlife despite his heroics deeds ONLY for abandoning Elan with the thieves´campament. The Deva forgave him ONLY because he came back to rescue E and the rest of TOoS and because Roy saved Elan again in the Hotel with the Gender Belt.
As the Deva said, Roy made mistakes but he constantly tried to improve and do better next time. As Soon said, Miko NEVER recognised the error of her ways and refugeed herself into delusion and hubris. Roy´s deeds were focused on helping people, on the contrary Miko´s were focused to prove everyone how special she was, the better and most important paladin of the Sapphire Guard. And that makes a HUGE difference.

On the other hand, Miko had legitimate reason to believe that Shojo needed to be executed, based on what she knew. Roy had no such legitimate reasons for abandoning Elan.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

The Pilgrim

2010-12-12, 06:06 PM

What makes you think none of them are evil?

If my memory serves, the Rat appears as one of the Evil deities in SoD, indeed

Gray Mage

2010-12-12, 06:29 PM

On the other hand, Miko had legitimate reason to believe that Shojo needed to be executed, based on what she knew.

Sorry, but I don't remember that at all. Care to explain a little more?

Raging Gene Ray

2010-12-12, 07:25 PM

Sorry, but I don't remember that at all. Care to explain a little more?

She walked in and saw him being friendly with Belkar (who had tried to kill her and deliberately pushed her over the edge) and admitting to rigging the Order's trial. Her first thought isn't going to be "clearly it's all part of some complex Xanatos Gambit to protect the other gates in spite of that pointless pact Soon was forced to agree to." It's more likely going to be "he wants to aid this criminal and keep him out of jail so he can undermine the Sapphire Guard and the rest of the legitimate government of Azure City."

As for attacking Hinjo...Celestia would have to accept pleas of temporary insanity for that one.

Gray Mage

2010-12-12, 07:31 PM

She walked in and saw him being friendly with Belkar (who had tried to kill her and deliberately pushed her over the edge) and admitting to rigging the Order's trial. Her first thought isn't going to be "clearly it's all part of some complex Xanatos Gambit to protect the other gates in spite of that pointless pact Soon was forced to agree to." It's more likely going to be "he wants to aid this criminal and keep him out of jail so he can undermine the Sapphire Guard and the rest of the legitimate government of Azure City."

As for attacking Hinjo...Celestia would have to accept pleas of temporary insanity for that one.

Even if that could be said as legitimate reason, which I don't agree, how is that grounds for an execution on the spot without a trial?

Raging Gene Ray

2010-12-12, 07:58 PM

Even if that could be said as legitimate reason, which I don't agree, how is that grounds for an execution on the spot without a trial?

I never said it was. It WAS justification to incapacitate and arrest him, interrogate him about the names of his associates and accomplices, and to try him. Of course, if she was right, he would have likely been executed after said trial. That is the punishment for treason in many societies, regardless of alignment.

Gray Mage

2010-12-12, 08:02 PM

I never said it was. It WAS justification to incapacitate and arrest him, interrogate him about the names of his associates and accomplices, and to try him. Of course, if she was right, he would have likely been executed after said trial. That is the punishment for treason in many societies, regardless of alignment.

Well, you didn't say it, but Warren implicited that and since you quoted me quoting him I assumed you agreed with him. Sorry. Now, I agree that he should have had a trial.

Raging Gene Ray

2010-12-12, 08:08 PM

Well, you didn't say it, but Warren implicited that and since you quoted me quoting him I assumed you agreed with.

I thought what Warren meant was that she had reason to believe he was guilty of capital crimes and would need to be executed. She fell because she skipped the whole interrogation and trial that would have let her find out how he was really trying to find away around a pact that Miko probably would have found silly and pointless as well.

And she may have a good chance of getting into Celestia if they show her the mercy of accepting a plea of temporary insanity (and, of course, confirming its legitimacy). She may be forced to realize that she is in Celestia on account of a mercy that she would have denied others.

Interestingly, if Miko had seen another paladin do the exact same things she did and meet the same fate, she would have condemned that paladin for being a mockery to their class, alignment, and country. She would have acted just like some of her own harshest haters.

Gray Mage

2010-12-12, 08:15 PM

I thought what Warren meant was that she had reason to believe he was guilty of capital crimes and would need to be executed. She fell because she skipped the whole interrogation and trial that would have let her find out how he was really trying to find away around a pact that Miko probably would have found silly and pointless as well.

As I said, I find the jump to the conclusion that he has commited treason not reasonable. The only thing she knew was that he was employing the order to do something related to the gates for him that the paladins couldn't and that he rigged the trial. Not exactly what I'd call treason.

Edit:
And she may have a good chance of getting into Celestia if they show her the mercy of accepting a plea of temporary insanity (and, of course, confirming its legitimacy). She may be forced to realize that she is in Celestia on account of a mercy that she would have denied others.

I'm no lawer, but how would that fit with temporary insanity? Expecially since it wasn't temporary at all since she was like that until she died.

Tazar

2010-12-12, 08:21 PM

Raging Gene Ray

2010-12-12, 08:28 PM

I'm no lawer, but how would that fit with temporary insanity? Expecially since it wasn't temporary at all since she was like that until she died.

I'm no lawyer either, but she had gone through several traumatic events in the span of a few minutes. Discovering her father figure had lied to her and was friends with someone who wanted her dead (Belkar), losing her paladinhood (the cornerstone of her personality), and Roy once again waving her lifetime of loneliness in front of her. She likely wouldn't have attacked Hinjo under any other circumstances and would have been about as reasonable as she was with Durkon.

Gray Mage

2010-12-12, 08:34 PM

I'm no lawyer either, but she had gone through several traumatic events in the span of a few minutes. Discovering her father figure had lied to her and was friends with someone who wanted her dead (Belkar), losing her paladinhood (the cornerstone of her personality), and Roy once again waving her lifetime of loneliness in front of her. She likely wouldn't have attacked Hinjo under any other circumstances and would have been about as reasonable as she was with Durkon.

It isn't much of an argument on Shojo's death, what many (including me btw) consider her fall from LG as well as paladinhood, since two of the evens happened after she had killed him.

cho_j

2010-12-12, 08:42 PM

In my eyes, murder, attempted double murder, the desire of many more murders (the Order) and the single-handed foiling of the destruction of a being of pure evil are more than enough to knock you out of Good status.

Doesn't matter if you think you're doing stuff for the right reasons if you're doing evil. I can shoot someone knocking on my door in the middle of the night to ask for help with their car because I think they're trying to break in and murder my family, but that doesn't justify my actions.

So, the first paragraph of that is not only something I agree with, but totally okay to use here (since it has to do with Miko's actions and the DnD standards for alignment, not real world morality). Same can't be said of the second paragraph. I think this is a really interesting topic, and not to be obnoxious, but I just want to point out that by using real world examples we're getting onto the slippery slope of morally justified vs. alignment debate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9914344#post9914344), which has shut down a few good threads.

Getting back to the topic at hand, I agree with those above who've been saying it's hard if not impossible for us to determine which afterlife Miko's in. We really don't know enough about the way the Giant's interpretation of the DnD afterlives works to say which she must be in. But I'm also of the opinion that Miko's fall was a dang clear sign that her gods no longer consider her Good. Coupled with Soon's speech about redemption (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html), I find it hard to believe that she can be exempted for trying to be Lawful Good, like Roy was (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) (though in his case, it was the Lawful and not the Good that was being contested).

Zmflavius

2010-12-12, 10:15 PM

cho_j

2010-12-12, 10:24 PM

Building on what Cho said, I think to link Soon's speech on redemption and Roy's review, Roy, if judged by actions, could have been thrown towards TN if he had simply abandoned Elan. However, because he recognized that he was wrong (according to the Deva) and rescued his comrades from being hanged, he essentially had fulfilled Soon's requirements for redemption, putting him back into the sphere of LG. However, Miko refused to do likewise, and so, does not pass, even if she remains LG.

Yay, someone else sees the similarities! Yeah, I think one of the Giant's greatest strengths as a story teller is creating parallels between many of the characters and their journeys, so you can see themes and premises of the universe get more and more clearly defined over time. Miko and Roy dying in the same battle make this parellel stronger, too. However...

Also, IIRC, Eugene was also LG, and he also wasn't admitted, for more or less the same reasons Miko wasn't admitted.

I'm confused by your point there, Zmflavius. Yes, Eugene couldn't get into Celestia because he had given up on the Blood Oath, so he wasn't trying to be Lawful. But I think that's pretty different from Miko snapping and utterly eschewing Good (and Law) for the sake of what she wanted to believe. I think they're at different orders of magnitude. Personally, I don't even think Miko got the chance to talk to a Deva and have her case reviewed; the acts she committed against her alignment seem too powerful to me for her to be considered. Then again... we don't know if Eugene WILL be considered once the Blood Oath is fulfilled, but it was my understanding that he was waiting by the gate he'd eventually be admitted through.

aart lover

2010-12-12, 10:24 PM

well let's see, miko DID fall. but she was still Lawful Good technically. so maybe she would get into the LG afterlife anyway. although maybe that celestial lawyer chick would do the same routine with her as with Roy ( that would've been good bonus material in the book) and send her off to the Neutral Good or True Neutral afterlife. as for roy meeting her there, she would either climb to a higher level of enlightenment or see him but never talk to him.

Warren Dew

2010-12-12, 11:10 PM

Even if that could be said as legitimate reason, which I don't agree, how is that grounds for an execution on the spot without a trial?

Shojo was ruler of the land. Given Miko believed Shojo was corrupt and evil, it's quite reasonable for her to believe that the justice system of the city was also corrupt and evil, and would let him get away with it. The only way for him to see justice, from her point of view, was for her to dispense it on the spot, which paladins often do anyway.

I thought what Warren meant was that she had reason to believe he was guilty of capital crimes and would need to be executed. She fell because she skipped the whole interrogation and trial that would have let her find out how he was really trying to find away around a pact that Miko probably would have found silly and pointless as well.

It's my opinion that she had to fall because of disloyalty to her liege, which I understand is listed in the rules as a reason for falling irrespective of the liege's actions or alignment.

That said, her being mistaken might well have been adequate reason for her to fall as well. One might not lose one's lawful good alignment for making a mistake or two, but the rules for paladinhood are rather more strict.

Zmflavius

2010-12-12, 11:16 PM

I'm confused by your point there, Zmflavius. Yes, Eugene couldn't get into Celestia because he had given up on the Blood Oath, so he wasn't trying to be Lawful. But I think that's pretty different from Miko snapping and utterly eschewing Good (and Law) for the sake of what she wanted to believe. I think they're at different orders of magnitude. Personally, I don't even think Miko got the chance to talk to a Deva and have her case reviewed; the acts she committed against her alignment seem too powerful to me for her to be considered. Then again... we don't know if Eugene WILL be considered once the Blood Oath is fulfilled, but it was my understanding that he was waiting by the gate he'd eventually be admitted through.

Personally, what I believe is that orders of magnitude aside, they essentially are that both of them are declared LG, but aren't really true LG, because of a failing in their duties.

Zevox

2010-12-12, 11:33 PM

...Since when is innocent anywhere near an accurate description of Shojo?
Always. He may have broken Soon's oath and deceived his Paladins, but neither of those make him any less an innocent (in the "free from moral wrong sense" anyway - I'm sure legalities of Azure City could be another matter, but we don't know what those are to discuss them), especially when half of it was necessary for him just to avoid constant assassination attempts.

Anyway, Miko. I figure she most likely wound up in Mechanus - under no reasoning I could accept would she still be considered good-aligned at the end of her life. And frankly, given Roy was almost chucked straight into True Neutral just for abandoning Elan, a much lesser offense than Miko's murder of Shojo (on top of which she has others, such as attempted murder of Hinjo), I can't see anyone judging her by the standards we saw applied to Roy considering her good-aligned either. If she was unlucky, maybe she got Acheron instead; if she was lucky, Arcadia. But I certainly could not see her making it into Celestia.

Zevox

cho_j

2010-12-13, 12:03 AM

To aart lover and Zmflavius:

Ah, I think I understand your point better now! And that actually would be a good example of parallelism— Miko and Eugene are very self-righteous characters, so it makes sense that they might both end up looking in to the LG afterlife from outside.

However, I still think that because Miko's acts were so far removed from Good, there's no way she's getting the chance for even that much closeness to Celestia.

Additionally, if she were where Eugene is, mightn't we have seen her there during Roy's more than 100 strip stay?

Keinnicht

2010-12-13, 01:05 AM

Miko seemed to be nearing insanity towards the end, which could mitigate the extent of her evil. The fact that she thought she was doing the right thing probably prevents her alignment from shifting all the way to evil.

Just like how Robin Hood is Chaotic Good, even though most people would say armed robbery is an evil act.

Honestly I could see her alignment shifting more along the law/chaos axis then I could the good/evil axis. One or two evil acts does not outweigh a lifetime of good, just as good does not outweigh evil. For example, Tarquin's still probably headed for Baator, even if he does help Elan.

There's also the possibility that Miko is in Limbo. Not as in the plane, but as in the state. Her soul's fate is unclear, and she's standing judgment. Or perhaps she's serving some time in Acheron or Outland before she's finally allowed to move on to Celestia.

Although, on an off-topic note, I think Tarquin's more likely to end up in Acheron.

cho_j

2010-12-13, 01:11 AM

Miko seemed to be nearing insanity towards the end, which could mitigate the extent of her evil. The fact that she thought she was doing the right thing probably prevents her alignment from shifting all the way to evil.

Just like how Robin Hood is Chaotic Good, even though most people would say armed robbery is an evil act.

Interesting way to think about it. Though I think with Robin Hood, you can argue that he did some objective good as well as subjective good: he really was helping people when he gave them money, even if stealing the money in the first place wasn't Good. Hard to see how killing Shojo did any Good at all outside of Miko's own twisted mind.

Does anyone who's been playing DnD longer than I have (i.e. more than a few weeks) know what the alignment system has to say about effect versus intent?

Lord_Gareth

2010-12-13, 01:17 AM

You know, I've noted a tendency for folks on these boards to think that an alignment shifts based on a single action rather than what a character has learned from that action. Roy's action of abandoning Elan was horrible, but the Deva mostly gave him points for learning from that mistake. Miko, likewise, dedicated her entire life to defending the innocent, often at no hope for reward, and gave herself wholly over to the Sapphire Guard without thought or question, becoming one of their greatest warriors. Near the end of her life, Miko suffered from extreme stresses to her emotional and mental state that included associating with criminals known to have destabilized the fabric of reality itself that, for reasons unfathomable to her, had an extremely evil member in their ranks.

However, she never stopped attempting to discern what was right.

Her morality meter was somewhat skewed by her extreme faith in the Twelve Gods, yes. Her anger and frustration also clouded her judgment, but the question Miko always asked was, "What is the right thing to do here? What is the will of the gods?"

Personally, I feel that in light of her record, she would have been admitted into Celestia, especially since the inhabitants there would know that Miko is not necessarily there as a reward, but to find herself and learn of the errors that she made both before her fall from paladinhood and after. After all, if Celestia is a quest for enlightenment, who needs it more than Miko?

Keinnicht

2010-12-13, 01:18 AM

You know, I've noted a tendency for folks on these boards to think that an alignment shifts based on a single action rather than what a character has learned from that action.

There's also the possibility that her alignment did not shift. Just because you lose your paladin powers doesn't mean you're not LG. You have to commit a lot of evil or chaotic acts before your alignment changes. "No longer fit to be a paladin" is different from "no longer LG."

Lord_Gareth

2010-12-13, 01:20 AM

There's also the possibility that her alignment did not shift. Just because you lose your paladin powers doesn't mean you're not LG. You have to commit a lot of evil or chaotic acts before your alignment changes. "No longer fit to be a paladin" is different from "no longer LG."

Eminently correct. Is an LG fighter no longer LG because he mercilessly executes a necromancer after he surrenders? No. But if he keeps doing that, then his alignment is in for a shift.

Roupe

2010-12-13, 01:37 AM

Lord_Gareth

2010-12-13, 01:39 AM

Felixc-91

2010-12-13, 01:54 AM

sigh, after reviewing the evidence presented, while i do really want to put Miko in a LN aligned area, she probably did end up in Celestia. as it was explained to Roy and Eugene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html), they don't penalize for failing to know the best way to do what is right. yeah, she did something really horrible, and definitely evil when she slew Shojo, but to the best of her knowledge she was doing the only thing she could to remove an evil dictator from power. the same could be said for her destruction of the Gate.
on a side note, is it just me, or is Miko really similar to Belkar when it comes to her stats? she displayed good physical stats, average INT for a hero, bad or horrible wisdom (remember wisdom is partially a measure of common sense and perceptiveness), and good CHA.

littlekKID

2010-12-13, 04:34 AM

on a side note, is it just me, or is Miko really similar to Belkar when it comes to her stats? she displayed good physical stats, average INT for a hero, bad or horrible wisdom (remember wisdom is partially a measure of common sense and perceptiveness), and good CHA.

Ummm, Belkar's CHA is horrible, but kinda of spot on with everything else

hamishspence

2010-12-13, 04:37 AM

If my memory serves, the Rat appears as one of the Evil deities in SoD, indeed

He's not in the "several elder evil gods broke ranks to defend him" shot- but he is in the "The Dark One consulted his few allies among the gods" shot.

Leaving the possibility of LE with LN tendencies, or LN with LE tendencies- appropriate for Acheron (I figure it's slightly more likely for a Lawful god to ally outright with The Dark One).

The idea of all the 12 gods residing in Celestia, all their worshippers going to Celestia if considered "good worshippers" is a bit narrow to me.
But making several of them Evil enough to reside in the Evil-aligned Lower Planes, seems a bit extravagant.

Hence, I figured that giving them all the nonevil planes (including 2 nonevil Lower Planes- Acheron and Pandemonium) would be a reasonable compromise.

It allows two of them to be Evil/bordering on Evil, but not Archfiendishly Evil.

Felixc-91

2010-12-13, 04:49 AM

Ummm, Belkar's CHA is horrible, but kinda of spot on with everything else
evidence??? i mean sure, not great CHA, but i figure him on somewhere between 12 and 16. when he bothers to be charming he seems to have a nac for it, see: 304 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0304.html), 611 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html), and 622 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html).
Edit: not sure if it qualifys but there are also his repeated claims of being a Sex Shooless God of WAR! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)

littlekKID

2010-12-13, 04:55 AM

evidence??? i mean sure, not great CHA, but i figure him on somewhere between 12 and 16. when he bothers to be charming he seems to have a nac for it, see: 304 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0304.html), 611 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html), and 622 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html).

V list him as one of the party members without CHA here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html), but I agree that ''horrible'' was kind of harsh, I'll give him 10-12

Felixc-91

2010-12-13, 05:36 AM

V list him as one of the party members without CHA here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html), but I agree that ''horrible'' was kind of harsh, I'll give him 10-12 hmmm, you have any evidence other than V? (s)he dose have significant bias against Belkar. V really dosn't like him.

Burner28

2010-12-13, 05:44 AM

faustin

2010-12-13, 05:48 AM

You know, I've noted a tendency for folks on these boards to think that an alignment shifts based on a single action rather than what a character has learned from that action. Roy's action of abandoning Elan was horrible, but the Deva mostly gave him points for learning from that mistake. Miko, likewise, dedicated her entire life to defending the innocent, often at no hope for reward, and gave herself wholly over to the Sapphire Guard without thought or question, becoming one of their greatest warriors. Near the end of her life, Miko suffered from extreme stresses to her emotional and mental state that included associating with criminals known to have destabilized the fabric of reality itself that, for reasons unfathomable to her, had an extremely evil member in their ranks.

However, she never stopped attempting to discern what was right.

Read my previous post. All of Miko´s deeds weren´t performer to honor the Sapphire Guard nor the Twelve Gods, but all for the glory of Miko Miyazaki.

If you are familiar with World of Darkness, you may know when a character is losing morality, he begins to gain mental derangements and stepping further into insanity. Miko´s case is similar; she knew that she was doing was wrong, so she begining to lied herself and hide behind a facade of arrogance and "holier than thou". Shojo pointed his concern about Miko´s mental stability BEFORE she began to menace his liege in the throne chamber.

And finally, if you asked me, attacking Hinjo was even worse than killing Shojo, because in the second case it could be claimed to be done "in the heat of the moment" after hearing Shojo aka father figure revelations. But she knew that Hinjo was completely innocent (and not evil) and only tried to reason with her (thus forgiving the point she had murdered his beloved uncle in front of his eyes), and attacked him only for her refuse to accept she was wrong from the beginning.

P.E:If insanity was an excuse for Evil, then Xykon woldn´t have any problem to enter in Celestia after his true death.

Kish

2010-12-13, 06:19 AM

Always. He may have broken Soon's oath and deceived his Paladins, but neither of those make him any less an innocent (in the "free from moral wrong sense" anyway - I'm sure legalities of Azure City could be another matter, but we don't know what those are to discuss them), especially when half of it was necessary for him just to avoid constant assassination attempts.
You think there's nothing wrong with deceiving most of a city and your nephew into believing you're insane, sending a goon (Miko) after a group of people you know did nothing wrong, and freely breaking the laws of the city you rule? Well, as the last time we had this exchange, Roy obviously disagrees ("the last thing I want is to be like Shojo, twisting legal authority into coercion"). I understand his viewpoint very well. Yours, not so much.

Zmflavius

2010-12-13, 08:31 AM

In addition of her regicide act, Miko also have the stigma of the destruction of the gate and the fall of Azure city into evil hands.

So Miko has done several acts that warrant punishment. In most myth punishments from Gods & Goddesses are often pretty harsh. Often endless torment.

Is that in DnD, or just myths?

Most myths are extremely narrow as a matter of fact. For example, in Greek Mythology, you have three options: Tartarus (Torment) which is for evil people, regular underworld for neutral, and Elysia (which is for good, possibly only LG).

Burner28

2010-12-13, 09:02 AM

P.E:If insanity was an excuse for Evil, then Xykon woldn´t have any problem to enter in Celestia after his true death.

Hmm.. now that scenario would be interesting

:miko: :smalleek: What..... What are you doing here, you foul abomination?
:xykon: Now....

hamishspence

2010-12-13, 11:13 AM

Is that in DnD, or just myths?

If you go by FC2, Manual of the Planes, etc, at least some of the Lower Planes are punitive.

Yugoloths string up the souls of those who made deals with them on spiked chains, in Gehenna.

In Baator, souls are tormented till they lose identity, then reincarnated as mindless lemures.

And Tartarus is a prison plane.

Most of the others aren't much better.

FC2 suggests Baator was established as a place of punishment, with the permission of the Upper Planes.
Of course, Asmodeus modified the agreement, making it also a source of recruitment, and encouraging people to do evil so he could punish them, then convert them into his own minions.

Warren Dew

2010-12-13, 11:41 AM

In addition of her regicide act, Miko also have the stigma of the destruction of the gate and the fall of Azure city into evil hands.
It's far from clear that Shojo would have beaten Xykon and Redcloak. It's also far from clear that allowing an intact gate into the hands of Xykon and Redcloak would have been better than destroying the gate.

Burner28

2010-12-13, 12:03 PM

Oh, crap
listen, if we're going to argue about Miko's alignment, we'll be here all day :smallannoyed:

Hey it could have been worse. At least she operates within a DnD context and there what alignment she is does matter in terms of where she would go. The same can't really be said of characters that don't operate within a DnD context, such as Lelouche and Ozymandias

archon_huskie

2010-12-13, 12:23 PM

My view of Miko's afterlife is that she spends the first few decades going through the 12 step program, notable steps 8 and 9.

8.Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9.Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Would it be heaven or hell for her? I see her as traveling through many different planes to accomplish this. In the end, she must give up the right to be resurrected, but she is restored as a paladin and allowed her eternal rest on the mountain.

Zevox

2010-12-13, 12:32 PM

You think there's nothing wrong with deceiving most of a city and your nephew into believing you're insane, sending a goon (Miko) after a group of people you know did nothing wrong, and freely breaking the laws of the city you rule?
Considering the actual things he was doing in doing all of that - protecting himself from getting assassinated and bringing the Order to Azure City so he could enlist their help in dealing with a problem that could threaten all of reality - yes, I don't think there was anything morally wrong with what he did.

No harm did or could come of it, and he had to do it to protect himself and his people, and because he couldn't act more openly in recruiting the Order due to the rather strict code his Paladins adhere to and the oath they took about the gates. Given the circumstances, he did everything he could the best way he could, and as a result we now have some hope that the Order can prevent Xykon and Redcloak's plans for the gates.

Zevox

TheBlackShadow

2010-12-13, 12:55 PM

Personally, I'd say Miko's probably in Mechanus, the Lawful Neutral aligned afterlife, in the domain of an appropriate member of the Twelve Gods, perhaps Tiger, Ox, or Horse. However, while Miko's Lawful nature is fairly secure, one can argue over her position on the Good-Neutral-Evil axis until the Big Crunch (indeed, there many people on this forum seemingly intent on doing precisely that, and I have little desire to join them), so I wouldn't rule out Archadia, maybe Acheron, and, at a stretch, Celestia. I'm also going to go out on a limb and rule out Baator, since, until her involvement with the Order, Miko spent most of her life as Lawful Good, borderline or not, and I don't think anything that happened afterwards was quite severe enough to send her all the way down there.

faustin

2010-12-13, 01:46 PM

Zevox

2010-12-13, 01:48 PM

After all the discussion, maybe the author should consider to make a strip or at least a vignette where is revealed Miko soul´s whereabout, even if she isn´t going to be involved with the plot nevermore. Isn´t much to ask for a major secundary character in the strip.
I'd rather he didn't. I'd say it makes for much better storytelling to leave that a mystery and let every reader have his or her own opinion on what fate Miko deserves, rather than have the author tell us what fate she got.

Zevox

archon_huskie

2010-12-13, 02:09 PM

It has been suggested that if Rich did make a strip showcasing Miko's afterlife, it would not show anything that would identify which plane she was on.

theinsulabot

2010-12-13, 02:17 PM

Kish

2010-12-13, 06:45 PM

Considering the actual things he was doing in doing all of that - protecting himself from getting assassinated and bringing the Order to Azure City so he could enlist their help in dealing with a problem that could threaten all of reality - yes, I don't think there was anything morally wrong with what he did.

No harm did or could come of it, and he had to do it to protect himself and his people, and because he couldn't act more openly in recruiting the Order due to the rather strict code his Paladins adhere to and the oath they took about the gates.

"No harm did come of it" is so debatable and based on speculation that saying it amounts to proof by assertion. We don't know what the situation in Azure City would be if Shojo had not deceived everyone.

"No harm could come of it" is flat-out ludicrous, considering how close Miko came to killing one to six members of the Order and/or dying herself, multiple times. It wouldn't be a great deal better if that whole sequence had never happened and instead we just had the Azure City population speculating about Hinjo having deposed his uncle.

"He had no alternative" directly contradicts the author, who commented in the notes for War and XPs that Shojo chose not to ask the paladins to reconsider their strict adherence to the letter of the oath because of his lack of respect for them, and even suggests himself that Shojo's death was karmic.

"It was the alternative he chose" is true. "It was the only alternative he had" is not.

DaveMcW

2010-12-13, 07:16 PM

Thankfully the gods have absolutely nothing to do with it, as shown when Roy died.

Roy has never really been that religious (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html).

Miko spent her life in service of the twelve gods, and they have already show they are willing and able to punish her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html).

mucat

2010-12-13, 08:25 PM

as I have mentioned before, I like to think miko's beliefs included a requirement of respectful burial. That way the mass, unmarked grave she was tossed in or goblin throat she went down would be enough to ensure her soul wandered for eternity. Or at least gave everyone else in whatever afterlife she was in reason to berate and belittle her as much as possible

Naw. Miko's beliefs were probably not wildly original; she seemed to believe in a pretty standard Twelve-Gods cosmology (with the addition of the "...and Miko is their chosen one" clause.) So if she were doomed to an eternity without rest, for a reason as silly as "not buried correctly", then all the Azurites who died defending their city from Xykon would face the same fate.

Not only would this be unjust, but it is demonstrably false; after the battle, Celestia was swamped with Azurite soliders.

Zevox

2010-12-13, 09:59 PM

"No harm could come of it" is flat-out ludicrous, considering how close Miko came to killing one to six members of the Order and/or dying herself, multiple times.
That was Miko's doing, not Shojo's. Had she followed his orders, she wouldn't have been trying to kill any of them short of being in a life-or-death situation herself. And if she was the only Paladin with any skill at tracking he has, he didn't exactly have an alternative to sending her to retrieve the Order.

It wouldn't be a great deal better if that whole sequence had never happened and instead we just had the Azure City population speculating about Hinjo having deposed his uncle.
Which sequence? Miko almost killing Belkar or Roy? What do they have do with Hinjo? :smallconfused:

"He had no alternative" directly contradicts the author, who commented in the notes for War and XPs that Shojo chose not to ask the paladins to reconsider their strict adherence to the letter of the oath because of his lack of respect for them, and even suggests himself that Shojo's death was karmic.
The best-case scenario that could reasonably be expected to come of that is that a split would occur in the Guard, with those who agreed with Shojo and more conservative members who would never even think of breaking an oath under any circumstances at odds. Given the fate of all reality might hang in the balance, Shojo could hardly to afford to deal with such a problem in addition to the Gates.

As for that last about Shojo's death being karmic, I can only disagree there.

"It was the alternative he chose" is true. "It was the only alternative he had" is not.
Then how's "it was the only alternative he had which any real chance of working" work for you?

Zevox

Raging Gene Ray

2010-12-13, 11:11 PM

Read my previous post. All of Miko´s deeds weren´t performer to honor the Sapphire Guard nor the Twelve Gods, but all for the glory of Miko Miyazaki.

And Shojo didn't really care about Azure City at all, he just knew that maintaining stability would be best for him. And Roy only tore up the contracts not because of the reasons he stated, but because he knew it would just make them more loyal to him, and all your friends are only nice to you so you'll be their friend in return.

All of these statements have about as much validity as saying that Miko was only selfless for herself. Alignment isn't a popularity contest.

And finally, if you asked me, attacking Hinjo was even worse than killing Shojo

I agree.

Because in the second case it could be claimed to be done "in the heat of the moment, after hearing Shojo aka father figure revelations, but she knew that Hinjo was completely innocent (and not evil) ...and attacked him only for her refuse to accept she was wrong from the beginning.

She had still lost her paladinhood and Shojo. It was still a heated moment and she had nothing to fall back on.

If insanity was an excuse for Evil, then Xykon woldn´t have any problem to enter in Celestia after his true death.

TEMPORARY Insanity, which is a valid plea in some court cases is what Miko would have to use. It means she was acting in a way that goes against her normal personality and only occurred because of extreme emotional stress. Xykon, Belkar, and other Evil characters couldn't use that plea because that IS their normal personality. In your WoD example (I've never played it, so tell me if I'm butchering something), the insanity overshadows and replaces the "true" personality. Miko was still aware of a Lawful Good baseline that she should still return to as demonstrated by her refusing of Sabine's offer.

Of course, that all depends on what the Celestials and Rich agree on. I myself wouldn't buy a plea of temporary insanity without complete knowledge of the defendant's life and personality. The kind of knowledge that Bureaucratic Devas seem to have.

After all the discussion, maybe the author should consider to make a strip or at least a vignette where is revealed Miko soul´s whereabout, even if she isn´t going to be involved with the plot nevermore. Isn´t much to ask for a major secundary character in the strip.

That sounds more like bonus material to sell books...it would probably work...and would hopefully resolve these sorts of threads.

blazingshadow

2010-12-14, 01:27 AM

after all this talk i think i have a better idea on where she ended up after her death. that isn't to say that she couldn't go on a quest for the upper planes to redeem herself. redemption is a special thing but i hardly believe that it isn't for everyone. if one didn't have time for redemption in their life like in miko's case then in death the gods could give a chance for the soul to earn their place back.

in any case if denied such quest i in my opinion see her going to arcadia if only for the sole reason that the plane is there. no reason to have planes between the alignments if not just to take care of the gray areas the alignments themselves provide

i made the thread because i thought it was going to be a little more clear cut than this but i see that i'm not the only one who saw miko's destination as ambiguous

Lord_Gareth

2010-12-14, 04:23 AM

Roy has never really been that religious (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html).

Miko spent her life in service of the twelve gods, and they have already show they are willing and able to punish her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html).

"Thankfully your lack of piety is not a factor here; only your alignment is taken into consideration."

The Pilgrim

2010-12-14, 07:04 AM

In addition of her regicide act, Miko also have the stigma of the destruction of the gate and the fall of Azure city into evil hands.

According to the Giant, the destruction of Azure City was Karma Payback for the Twelve God's sanctioning Soon's crusade.

The Pilgrim

2010-12-14, 07:16 AM

evidence??? i mean sure, not great CHA, but i figure him on somewhere between 12 and 16. when he bothers to be charming he seems to have a nac for it, see: 304 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0304.html), 611 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html), and 622 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0622.html).
Edit: not sure if it qualifys but there are also his repeated claims of being a Sex Shooless God of WAR! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)

Errr... are you implying that someone with average (10) charisma can't have sex?

Dancing with a girl or having occasional sex is something that has happened to me, and to most people I know.

LuisDantas

2010-12-14, 07:22 AM

I still see her as a LG...

So do many other people, while many others such as me find the idea puzzling at best. Heated debates happened fairly often here on the forums over the issue.

It is not so much the act that made her fall that makes the idea of her being LG preposterous to me. It is what happened later, particularly after she was in her cell. Miko has IMO been very clearly depicted as having no hint of claim to being LG anymore. She is probably TN, with enough insanity in her to doom her to something worse in short order had she not died so quickly. Being a tragic figure does not make her either Lawful or Good, and her actions and intents certainly don't help any in this regard either.

As for Windstriker, I fear nothing much can be made of a comment that he will visit Miko as often as he can, particularly when the whole speech by Soon was so full of euphemisms. For all anyone know, Widstriker may not be able to visit Miko at all; that still doesn't make Soon's statement false.

Miko can't possibly be in either of the Good afterlifes because she was never Good. To paraphrase, "she wasn't a LG character, but she played one to herself". She deluded the beejezus out of herself, but her actions after the throne room incident make it very clear that LG she ain't, have never been, and most certainly did not become during the rest of her life.

hamishspence

2010-12-14, 08:39 AM

Miko can't possibly be in either of the Good afterlifes because she was never Good. To paraphrase, "she wasn't a LG character, but she played one to herself". She deluded the beejezus out of herself, but her actions after the throne room incident make it very clear that LG she ain't, have never been, and most certainly did not become during the rest of her life.

Problem with that- she had paladin powers. Which leads to various unpalatable suggestions.

She was badly written- intended to be LG but her actions do not fit this.
She is a homebrew variant paladin- able to use the powers of an LG paladin despite not being so.

Neither of which fit with OoTS being a world that uses D&D mechanics.

Deliverance

2010-12-14, 08:51 AM

It is not so much the act that made her fall that makes the idea of her being LG preposterous to me. It is what happened later, particularly after she was in her cell. Miko has IMO been very clearly depicted as having no hint of claim to being LG anymore. She is probably TN, with enough insanity in her to doom her to something worse in short order had she not died so quickly. Being a tragic figure does not make her either Lawful or Good, and her actions and intents certainly don't help any in this regard either.

What happened in her cell and afterwards?

#419 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html)
- she is taunted by a psychopatic murderer, whom she sees as one of those responsible for her current position, and utters a desire to kill him
- she snaps the neck of a fiend that is trying to tempt her

#458 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html)
- she is praying in her cell while the linear guild makes their escape

#460 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html)
- she is praying to the 12 gods in her cell, asking for a sign
- she gets a sign and concludes that she must continue her mission: punishing the OOTS for their betrayal of Azure City.
- seeing the devastation of her beautiful city, she wows to make the OOTS pay dearly
- hearing Xykon's voice, she realizes that the Lich is in the throne room, and given the conflict between two duties, she chooses the one she considers of paramount importance (protecting the Gate) rather than the one in which she is emotionally invested (punishing the OOTS for their betrayal). Circumstances may have changed, but she obeys her oath.

#461 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html)
- she reaches the throne room in which she sees most of the defenders vanquished, Xykon and Redcloak still going strong, and O-chul frozen in the act of destroying the gate in the throne; She realizes that she must finish what O-chul began and that this is why the gods brought her to this place at this time.

#462 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)
- she has made her way to the throne and, taking O-chul's weapon, performs the act he was prevented from doing by the magic of the evil attackers.

TN? I think not.

Miko can't possibly be in either of the Good afterlifes because she was never Good. To paraphrase, "she wasn't a LG character, but she played one to herself". She deluded the beejezus out of herself, but her actions after the throne room incident make it very clear that LG she ain't, have never been, and most certainly did not become during the rest of her life.

So she not only deluded the beejezus out of herself, her delusion managed to fool the 12 gods, who took her as their paladin and granted her paladin powers?

To assert that Miko never was LG means that the 12 gods accept paladins that aren't LG.

There's a point at which the mask becomes the person, and if it is good enough for the 12 gods it is good enough for me. Miko was LG in every way that mattered and spent her time pushing the boundaries of the alignment, possibly finally crossing it with the killing of her liege.

The Pilgrim

2010-12-14, 12:09 PM

Miko can't possibly be in either of the Good afterlifes because she was never Good.

Maybe she was not good according to your definition of Good. But, since she was a Paladin, she was thus unquestionably Good according to the mechanics that rule the OOTS universe, which are the ones to decide which afterlife she gets.

The Pilgrim

2010-12-14, 12:29 PM

What happened in her cell and afterwards?

#419 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html)
- she is taunted by a psychopatic murderer, whom she sees as one of those responsible for her current position, and utters a desire to kill him
- she snaps the neck of a fiend that is trying to tempt her

#458 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html)
- she is praying in her cell while the linear guild makes their escape

#460 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html)
- she is praying to the 12 gods in her cell, asking for a sign
- she gets a sign and concludes that she must continue her mission: punishing the OOTS for their betrayal of Azure City.
- seeing the devastation of her beautiful city, she wows to make the OOTS pay dearly
- hearing Xykon's voice, she realizes that the Lich is in the throne room, and given the conflict between two duties, she chooses the one she considers of paramount importance (protecting the Gate) rather than the one in which she is emotionally invested (punishing the OOTS for their betrayal). Circumstances may have changed, but she obeys her oath.

#461 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html)
- she reaches the throne room in which she sees most of the defender's vanquished, Xykon and Redcloak still going strong, and O-chul frozen in the act of destroying the gate in the throne; She realizes that she must finish what O-chul began and that this is why the gods brought her to this place at this time.

#462 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)
- she has made her way to the throne and, taking O-chul's weapon, performs the act he was prevented from doing by the magic of the evil attackers.

TN? I think not.

Those are basically the main arguments to arge she was still LG even after the fall.

While those arguments involve a lot of assumptions about Miko's motivations, the counter-arguments against them involve even more subjective assumptions. Thus, if we adhere to the "in dubio pro reo" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_dubio_pro_reo) principle, we must conclude she was still LG.

Which does not rule out she could have still been denied entry to Celestia, of course, on account of the killing of Lord Shojo and never ever acknowelding her error for it (althrought, maybe, Soon's lecture at her death"bed" led her to finally acknowelde it).

There is one further argument in favor of the "Miko died LG" claim. But it involves Meta-analisys: Basically, if Miko's purpose as a character was to prove that a LG party can get a LG antagonist, Miko stopping to be LG due to his antagonism to the OOTS would mean the Giant totally failed at his premise for this character.

Nevereatcars

2010-12-14, 04:14 PM

I'm sorry, perhaps I misread. Are you, good sir, suggesting that the Giant is capable of anything other than perfection?

...

BLASPHEMY!!!!

hamishspence

2010-12-14, 04:30 PM

There is one further argument in favor of the "Miko died LG" claim. But it involves Meta-analisys: Basically, if Miko's purpose as a character was to prove that a LG party can get a LG antagonist, Miko stopping to be LG due to his antagonism to the OOTS would mean the Giant totally failed at his premise for this character.

Miko filled her role of LG antagonist all the way up to the death of Shojo.

For her to change alignment afterwards,

"having pushed and pushed on the boundaries of what it means to be Lawful Good" until "finally she broke through"

doesn't break the original concept.

Kish

2010-12-14, 05:41 PM

That was Miko's doing, not Shojo's. Had she followed his orders, she wouldn't have been trying to kill any of them short of being in a life-or-death situation herself.

And why didn't she follow the orders of the white housecat, as relayed to her by the senile old man? Well, I'm sure whatever her reason, indeed whatever her reasons for being as messed up as she was by the time she entered the Order's story, they have nothing to do with Shojo's deception.

The fact that those orders were "apprehend these criminals" and not "deliver this envelope to these adventurers" is also somehow not Shojo's fault, I'm sure.

Which sequence? Miko almost killing Belkar or Roy?

The entire sequence from "Miko enters the story" to "the Order arrives at Azure City."

I find it really hard to believe you can't think of a dozen ways Shojo's deception could have caused harm, above and beyond the multiple ways it did cause harm in the story. "No harm could have come of it" is simply preposterous.

Then how's "it was the only alternative he had which any real chance of working" work for you?
As badly as your first line. Other characters have ruled without faking senility, somehow. It was the alternative he chose. That's the most you can get me to agree to.

As for Windstriker, I fear nothing much can be made of a comment that he will visit Miko as often as he can, particularly when the whole speech by Soon was so full of euphemisms. For all anyone know, Widstriker may not be able to visit Miko at all; that still doesn't make Soon's statement false.

I cannot prove that Soon did not suddenly start channeling Tarquin and reply to Miko's "Will I get to see Windstriker again?" with a legalistic deception, whether the idea makes any sense or not, but, that only means anything to the third sentence of his reply to the question. The line "Of course" would be a no-room-for-argument lie in the scenario you propose, and the line "He has been waiting for you"--well, I take leave to doubt that Windstriker had been hanging out in Acheron.

DaveMcW

2010-12-14, 06:42 PM

"Thankfully your lack of piety is not a factor here; only your alignment is taken into consideration."

The gods don't care about Roy.

The gods do care about some followers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), including Miko.

Warren Dew

2010-12-14, 06:57 PM

It is not so much the act that made her fall that makes the idea of her being LG preposterous to me. It is what happened later, particularly after she was in her cell. Miko has IMO been very clearly depicted as having no hint of claim to being LG anymore.
It seems to me she's very clearly depicted as being pretty much the same as she was before - headstrong and assuming she would get guidance from the twelve gods, even when she didn't. Since the "before" was when she was a paladin, and thus by definition lawful good, that's an argument for her continuing to be lawful good.

Now, you may not like the D&D alignment system definition of lawful good, but that's irrelevant to the discussion of Miko's alignment, which necessarily refers to that system.

cho_j

2010-12-14, 10:42 PM

It seems to me she's very clearly depicted as being pretty much the same as she was before - headstrong and assuming she would get guidance from the twelve gods, even when she didn't. Since the "before" was when she was a paladin, and thus by definition lawful good, that's an argument for her continuing to be lawful good.

*snip*

I disagree. As you can gather from Roy's speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) after the inn burned down, Miko was slipping from her LG alignment for a good long time before she actually fell from paladin status. Her time in jail just showed that same not-quite-LG behavior, but AFTER she'd crossed a Moral Event Horizon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralEventHorizon).

I always interpreted her killing Shojo as being the straw that broke the 12 Gods' backs. Maybe up until then they were giving her the benefit of the doubt, seeing as nothing she was doing was actually against the LETTER of her alignment. She treated people horribly, yes, but always because she felt they were committing Evil acts, and that she should oppose them at all costs. And that is why she killed Shojo and tried to kill Belkar, but it was at a new level of atrocious. Additionally, her motivations at that point were no longer SOLELY for the greater Good. They were, to paraphrase Belkar's shoulder devil, for the greater Miko.

You know why I think so? Read through strip 406 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html) again. She personalizes almost every single claim she lays against Shojo. What's more, she brushes aside Hinjo's plea to let the courts deal with these very serious charges (the Lawful Good method) by saying SHE has had a personal epiphany, even if no other LG character in the room can see it. She says "I have heard the proof with my own ears," thus making herself more important than the entire Sapphire Guard. And speaking of the Guard, what does she say right before she kills Shojo?

"As the highest-ranking Paladin in the Sapphire Guard, I find you guilty of treason."

Miko is no longer dedicated to the greater law or the greater good, only to her own delusions. The same is true when she's in prison.

Zevox

2010-12-14, 11:07 PM

Miko is no longer dedicated to the greater law or the greater good, only to her own delusions. The same is true when she's in prison.
See also her line when she first strikes Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html):

"The gods have a plan for me. I know it! I am special, the most powerful Paladin in the Sapphire Guard! They wouldn't do this to ME without a reason, I just need to figure out what it is!"

Miko is flat-out convinced she is somehow the special chosen one of the Twelve Gods. Rich talks about this in commentary to War and XPs - this is why she always believes herself to be inherently right, infallible, and that those who oppose her can only be inherently wrong. She has always been self-centered in this way, it's just that her actions never quite reflected it enough for her to not technically qualify as good. Until she murdered Shojo.

Zevox

Raging Gene Ray

2010-12-14, 11:27 PM

She treated people horribly, yes, but always because she felt they were committing Evil acts, and that she should oppose them at all costs. And that is why she killed Shojo and tried to kill Belkar, but it was at a new level of atrocious.

Okay, this is the part that puzzles me about the comic as a whole. I never saw anything wrong with how Miko treated others. At all. The Order failed to prevent the destruction of the inn and she got mad. She didn't forget it because it had served its story purpose and the innkeeper was just a pointless NPC. She actually was aware that the destruction left in their wake has an impact on others. V refused to literally left a finger to benefit the peasants, she got mad at him for that. When Elan called her "mean," he sounded more like an overly sensitive petulant child than a dispenser of simple, childlike wisdom. Belkar murdered her ally, nearly murdered her, robbed her, and provoked her...she tried to kill him rather than stick him in the same prison he just escaped from.

I know that means my mind works much differently from the author's and most of the forum's, but she seemed more polite than most (if not all) of the members of the Order.

Of course, I know what happened in the throne room was not defensible as a Good act. I'm not debating that, but I saw no problem with Miko at all before that.

My view of Miko's afterlife is that she spends the first few decades going through the 12 step program, notable steps 8 and 9.

8.Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9.Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

I remember reading a quote from Rich that implied that Miko was supposed to embody those who DON'T get a chance at redemption, even if it's something they would want to do. Having her ascend would mean she fails in fulfilling that role. If Miko does enter Celestia, it will involve embracing an afterlife as a common person, one of the fast majority of sentient beings who are Good without being or forcing themselves to be exemplars of Good.

cho_j

2010-12-15, 01:00 AM

Okay, this is the part that puzzles me about the comic as a whole. I never saw anything wrong with how Miko treated others. At all. The Order failed to prevent the destruction of the inn and she got mad. She didn't forget it because it had served its story purpose and the innkeeper was just a pointless NPC. She actually was aware that the destruction left in their wake has an impact on others. V refused to literally left a finger to benefit the peasants, she got mad at him for that. When Elan called her "mean," he sounded more like an overly sensitive petulant child than a dispenser of simple, childlike wisdom. Belkar murdered her ally, nearly murdered her, robbed her, and provoked her...she tried to kill him rather than stick him in the same prison he just escaped from.

Hm, that's an interesting way to look at it. I guess to each his or her own, but I never thought of her as polite in the least. I'm not arguing that nothing the Order did was as bad or as rude, but IMO Miko didn't show any respect to the Order. One particular thing that got under my skin was her calling V "elf" repeatedly. That's just speciesist. Also, she passed judgement on everyone else's lifestyle. That's something that I dislike in any character.

Raging Gene Ray

2010-12-15, 01:10 AM

Also, she passed judgement on everyone else's lifestyle. That's something that I dislike in any character.

I saw it more like advice than judgment. I do that IRL which probably makes me seem oblivious to things my friends complain about and tell me SHOULD bother me. It's mostly the way she talks...I know it was supposed to make her seem uptight, pretentious, and sanctimonious, but that "proper" way of speaking just seems polite and friendly to me, or uninterested at the very worst.

And snarkiness and smugness just seem rude and judgmental to me, although I know some people see those traits as either down-to-earth, free-spirited, or part of the common people down here in the REAL WORLD. To each their own.

cho_j

2010-12-15, 01:51 AM

I saw it more like advice than judgment. I do that IRL which probably makes me seem oblivious to things my friends complain about and tell me SHOULD bother me. It's mostly the way she talks...I know it was supposed to make her seem uptight, pretentious, and sanctimonious, but that "proper" way of speaking just seems polite and friendly to me, or uninterested at the very worst.

And snarkiness and smugness just seem rude and judgmental to me, although I know some people see those traits as either down-to-earth, free-spirited, or part of the common people down here in the REAL WORLD. To each their own.

::shrug:: I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I saw her lines like "filthy lucre" as more a judgement than actual advice, and I had no problem with her proper way of speaking, only that to me she seemed to use it to put others down.

blazingshadow

2010-12-15, 02:50 AM

Errr... are you implying that someone with average (10) charisma can't have sex?

Dancing with a girl or having occasional sex is something that has happened to me, and to most people I know.

i might be joking but the ladies might have had circumstance penalties to your high bluff skills.

One particular thing that got under my skin was her calling V "elf" repeatedlyyou don't call him/her by his/her full name either. v has a hard name to remember and pronounce if you are not an elf.

Mystic Muse

2010-12-15, 02:59 AM

you don't call him/her by his/her full name either. v has a hard name to remember and pronounce if you are not an elf.

You could at least call Vaarsuvious by a nickname. She doesn't seem to mind being called V. Better than referring to her by her race. Every other context I've seen that in, it's used as a sign of disrespect.

Kish

2010-12-15, 06:45 AM

"Durkon! Elf!" Yes, the disrespect for only one of the two people being addressed was obvious and intentional.

However, considering that the person she was treating with disrespect had started out by calling her "this foul shrew"...(Did Miko hear that exact phrase? Probably not. Did Vaarsuvius act significantly nicer to Miko when she was in earshot? Extremely unlikely.)

faustin

2010-12-15, 06:58 AM

Miko was annoying and sel-righteous with everyone, not only with TOoS but even with the rest of the Sapphire Guard. Hinjo mentioned Roy about the "true reason" :smallyuk: she was frequently send to long distance mission.

LuisDantas

2010-12-15, 03:02 PM

It seems to me she's very clearly depicted as being pretty much the same as she was before - headstrong and assuming she would get guidance from the twelve gods, even when she didn't. Since the "before" was when she was a paladin, and thus by definition lawful good, that's an argument for her continuing to be lawful good.

It is indeed.

Her behavior, however, is a far stronger argument for her never having been LG. Plot trumps rules, and characterization IMO trumps formerly stated goals. I'm well aware that the 12 Gods did not revoke her powers before she killed Shojo. Plot-wise, it is a simple and interesting eccentricity to have the Gods ignore Miko's true, self-evident alignment for any of various possible reasons. We have seen more significant and less needed house ruling already.

As for the Giant stating that he meant Miko to be a LG antagonist, I can only guess he changed his mind along the way. He is allowed to. Or even simpler and more likely, his view of the alignment system clashes with mine (shocking, I know, but we can't rule that out entirely). :smallwink:

I don't think Miko changed her alignment, but then again I can't possibly consider such a self-serving delusional egotistic as her (as seen in most strips since she killed Shojo, particularly after her break out from her cell) Good or even Lawful. She is True Neutral, self-serving variety, insane sub-variety. It is most unfortunate that said insanity manifests in a visceral, desperate need to paint herself as LG despite herself.

Now, you may not like the D&D alignment system definition of lawful good, but that's irrelevant to the discussion of Miko's alignment, which necessarily refers to that system.

Except that it is demonstrably not duty-bound to follow it blindly and without any room for interpretation, Warren.

The Pilgrim

2010-12-15, 07:25 PM

Mystic Muse

2010-12-15, 07:35 PM

Deliverance

2010-12-15, 08:03 PM

Raging Gene Ray

2010-12-15, 08:35 PM

Well, if there is people willing to arge that Belkar is not CE, even when he has been labeled as that in-comic and by the author... or, more recently, people willing to arge that Tarquin is anything but LE... it's not surprising than there is people willing to arge that Miko was not LG despite being a friggin' Paladin.

I think the rationale for both go something like this: I think Belkar/Tarquin is AWESOME! But I'm a basically nice guy...I wouldn't be cheering on somebody Evil...he must be Neutral!

Or, the inverse, I hate that bitch and want her tortured/ruined. But that seems too spiteful for a nice guy like me to wish on a Good person...she must be Neutral/Evil and therefore deserving of my hatred!

When the Giant finally answers the question in comic, it should vastly reduce debates like this; but just like V's Four Words, it might not end them completely.

She is True Neutral, self-serving variety, insane sub-variety. It is most unfortunate that said insanity manifests in a visceral, desperate need to paint herself as LG despite herself.

How does spending countless lonely nights traveling in service of your lord when you could take the easy way out and be a rogue instead, or running into a burning inn instead of staying safe outside, or paying for the comfort of your filthy rich prisoners out of your own pocket count as self-serving?

Just like Roy can be a rude, smug, self-important, know-it-all and be Good without question because he risks his life for a greater good and no reward, so too can Miko be considered Good.

Nevereatcars

2010-12-15, 11:39 PM

Which four words were these? I can never remember the archives.

Felixc-91

2010-12-16, 12:22 AM

Errr... are you implying that someone with average (10) charisma can't have sex?

Dancing with a girl or having occasional sex is something that has happened to me, and to most people I know.ok, sure, 304, is not the best evidence, but look at the ones in the 600 series again. :belkar: is in the middle of slaughtering her coworkers (some of which may even be her friends) and he wins her over by via one prolonged kiss. how is that not either applied strength of personality or good looks?

Felixc-91

2010-12-16, 12:49 AM

Okay, this is the part that puzzles me about the comic as a whole. I never saw anything wrong with how Miko treated others. At all. The Order failed to prevent the destruction of the inn and she got mad. She didn't forget it because it had served its story purpose and the innkeeper was just a pointless NPC. She actually was aware that the destruction left in their wake has an impact on others. V refused to literally left a finger to benefit the peasants, she got mad at him for that. When Elan called her "mean," he sounded more like an overly sensitive petulant child than a dispenser of simple, childlike wisdom. Belkar murdered her ally, nearly murdered her, robbed her, and provoked her...she tried to kill him rather than stick him in the same prison he just escaped from.

I know that means my mind works much differently from the author's and most of the forum's, but she seemed more polite than most (if not all) of the members of the Order.

Of course, I know what happened in the throne room was not defensible as a Good act. I'm not debating that, but I saw no problem with Miko at all before that.
i would like to draw your attention to the point when Miko met the team. (paraphrased) :miko: Surrender or die! :roy: wait whats going on? we're not surrendering without a little.... :miko: DIE! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)
this seems like acceptable behavior to you? they had not drawn a single weapon, hadn't even reached for one. all they had done is stand there and act confused...

The Pilgrim

2010-12-16, 12:59 AM

Luis has a valid point though. Rich has been willing to break rules in the past for the sake of the story.

And has openly explained it when he has done so. Size category of Goblins, for example. When people complained, he made a commentary explaining that he need to give them human size or otherwise they wouldn't be a credible threat for the Order. Same with other deviations from core rules.

Allowing non-LG paladins? Never commented anything about that.

When people has protested for the Paladin's behaviour (village massacre in SOD, Miko's behaviour), did the Giant say "look, all paladins in the OOTS universe aren't LG. The 12 Gods allow non-LG Paladins, so stop pestering about that"?

No, he said "look, some Paladins fell after the village incident", and "Miko has been pushing the boundaries of LG".

So, no, the point is not valid. The fact that people in the OOTS universe take as granted that Paladin = LG (see the resolution of the first meeting between Miko and the Order, for example), plus the Giant's commentaries, both give solid proof that the "Paladins are always LG" core rule is being observed.

The Pilgrim

2010-12-16, 01:01 AM

ok, sure, 304, is not the best evidence, but look at the ones in the 600 series again. :belkar: is in the middle of slaughtering her coworkers (some of which may even be her friends) and he wins her over by via one prolonged kiss. how is that not either applied strength of personality or good looks?

Chicks dig winners.

Anyway, take a look at strip #312 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html). First Pannel. About the memebers of the party who have any charisma. Belkar is among the half that has none.

Felixc-91

2010-12-16, 01:08 AM

Chicks dig winners.

Anyway, take a look at strip #312 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html). First Panel. About the members of the party who have any charisma. Belkar is among the half that has none. we've gone over that point before

hmmm, you have any evidence other than V? (s)he dose have significant bias against Belkar. V really doesn't like him.

The Pilgrim

2010-12-16, 01:09 AM

we've gone over that point before

Well, if Belkar had got any Charisma, then they (or, at least, HIM) wouldn't have end up dinning in a place he is heavily complaining about.

The Pilgrim

2010-12-16, 01:16 AM

You could at least call Vaarsuvious by a nickname. She doesn't seem to mind being called V. Better than referring to her by her race. Every other context I've seen that in, it's used as a sign of disrespect.

Strip #0754 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html).

Not only Elan refers to an elf he has been properly introduced to as "elf", but also V's familiar is referencing the elven ambassador as "elf" when talking about it to V (who is also an elf).

So looks like in the OOTS universe it's pretty standard to adress elves as "elf".

Zevox

2010-12-16, 01:23 AM

Strip #0754 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html).

Not only Elan refers to an elf he has been properly introduced to as "elf", but also V's familiar is referencing the elven ambassador as "elf" when talking about it to V (who is also an elf).

So looks like in the OOTS universe it's pretty standard to adress elves as "elf".
Seems more likely that they simply didn't remember his name. That particular character is a rather minor one they hadn't even actually spoken to before, even if they were told his name.

Edit: This is especially likely given it looks like only Elan was actually told his name, not V and Blackwing.

Zevox

Felixc-91

2010-12-16, 01:31 AM

Well, if Belkar had got any Charisma, then they (or, at least, HIM) wouldn't have end up dinning in a place he is heavily complaining about. correlations aren't necessarily causal. the fact that the people without access to reservations are (according to V) the ones without CHA dose not mean that lacking CHA caused them to get stuck in a place like that.
:edit: good night!

Raging Gene Ray

2010-12-16, 02:11 AM

i would like to draw your attention to the point when Miko met the team. (paraphrased) :miko: Surrender or die! :roy: wait whats going on? we're not surrendering without a little.... :miko: DIE! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)
this seems like acceptable behavior to you? they had not drawn a single weapon, hadn't even reached for one. all they had done is stand there and act confused...

If she ONLY knew about the crimes they were accused of in the village, I might agree, but they were accused of weakening the fabric of reality. That's not a minor crime and hardly one you reason with someone over.

There are two circumstance in which that is possilbe: destroying the Gate to protect it from others and to free the Snarl...unless there's the minuscule chance that somebody accidentally pressed it because to show what a lovable moron he is.

You don't reason with someone like that. If she had given the Linear Guild a "chance to explain," she probably would have ended up like the angel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0193.html).

If Shojo had bothered to have a Diviner determine WHY they blew up the gate or if he shared that info with her after Eugene presumably gave it to him, I could see your point as well. :miko: "They are NOT paladins, and therefore unfit to make such decisions. They will die for the impetuousness" THAT would have been unacceptable.

The only reason that happened at all was because of the nigh-improbable circumstances of evil twins and trophies that just happen to have Evil auras.

If Roy hadn't chosen the unfortunate phrase "We're not surrendering" to begin his sentence and instead "On what charges?", then I might even be able to see your logic. But I give Miko credit for doing that much considering the risk involved with dealing with the sort of people Roy's trophy-grabbing instincts made him look like.

I also can't believe that nobody ever brings up the fact that Miko DID admit she was wrong when Durkon gave her the explanation. She apologizes and gives the Order an amazing amount of freedom for prisoners. I don't care if she didn't use their proper names. She let them keep their possessions, never seized any of their treasure for "legal fees", they were unrestrained even after Belkar threatened Windstriker...Roy calling that "being treated like crap" sounds like a snooty customer calling his steak inedible because it was cooked by a 4-star and not a 5-star chef.

Besides, IRL, I've been called names by half-strangers based on my beard, long-hair, and general behavior. In D and D, I get called names based on my race and class. It's never offended me at all unless the tone/context implied disrespect. And, in the heat of battle, barking orders IS acceptable. If I were V, I would have personally been flattered that Miko trusted my abilities that much. If she had said :miko: "Did you hear me, elf? Clean the filth out of your pointy ears before I slice them off." Or pulled a Horace Greenhilt and insulted his class with :miko: "Damn it, twig boy! Get your head out of the book and help the REAL warrior here! See if you can't move those spindly, underdeveloped arms for one round and get me a Fireball!" Then I could understand the hatred.

Or if Durkon had given the explanation and she had told them that this was obviously a lie and the crown must have some magic that stores your Evil aura within it to fool Detect Evil spells and THEN attacked the party, I'd see your point, too.

I also thought that Miko wasn't supposed to appear as an overly-judgmental paladin (I'd never read the forums or any author commentary before that), but a way of subverting the trope where the heroes cause collateral damage and presumably kill civilians, but it's never mentioned and there are no consequences because they took care of their personal nemesis and nobody matters outside the scope of THEIR story.

I'd like to emphasize that I understand that even if the Order is petty and spiteful towards Miko, they can still be basically Good. I think that's one of the central themes in the comic: it's possible to represent an ideal without forcing yourself to be an exemplar of that ideal.

Now, what was the point of this thread again? Oh yeah...what I'm saying is I didn't see the whole "pushing the boundaries of LG" thing. But Word of the Giant says its there, so that makes that entire essay I just wrote even more pointless than it already was. So I guess I'm just arguing with Luis's baseless assertion that she was not Good-aligned from the start, no questions asked.

Zevox

2010-12-16, 02:50 AM

If she ONLY knew about the crimes they were accused of in the village, I might agree, but they were accused of weakening the fabric of reality. That's not a minor crime and hardly one you reason with someone over.
You seem to forget that she was ordered to bring them in alive. It was Miko herself who decided she'd be judge, jury, and executioner for them if they didn't surrender at once when Roy detected as evil, in direct violation of Shojo's order. Likely because that is apparently standard policy for her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0228.html).

And yes, she should have reasoned with them, regardless of what they are accused of (and note that "accused" - these are not people she knew were criminals or who were ever convicted of anything, merely accused). They gave no indication they were going to attack her, made no threatening movements whatsoever, didn't even move to flee, and they plainly had no idea who she was or what authority she could possibly claim to have, nor did she have any reason to believe they would. Under no rational interpretation of the situation was Miko acting even remotely properly by attacking them for not immediately and unconditionally surrendering, but instead simply demanding an explanation - or starting to at least, given she didn't let Roy so much as finish that sentence.

Zevox

Raging Gene Ray

2010-12-16, 03:11 AM

You seem to forget that she was ordered to bring them in alive. It was Miko herself who decided she'd be judge, jury, and executioner for them if they didn't surrender at once when Roy detected as evil, in direct violation of Shojo's order..

She said she would do so "if possible." Considering their crime and the kind of thing that happens to people who get in the way of those who try to take over the gates, attacking DID seem reasonable to me after I found out she was a paladin and not an assassin sent by some cabal or cult.

And yes, she should have reasoned with them, regardless of what they are accused of (and note that "accused" - these are not people she knew were criminals or who were ever convicted of anything, merely accused)

...and had lots of evidence against them...and WERE guilty of what they were accused of.

They gave no indication they were going to attack her, made no threatening movements whatsoever, didn't even move to flee

The time between giving no indication and firing off Disintegrates and ranged attacks is minuscule. If she, the Order, or any adventurer let every opponent win initiative, they'd be dead by now.

and they plainly had no idea who she was or what authority she could possibly claim to have, nor did she have any reason to believe they would.

This I agree with. Miko should have definitely announced her authority and nature of the crimes before giving the option to surrender (even though it would have ruined the big reveal), I hardly think it qualifies as "unquestionably not LG."

However, we all know as readers that Roy would have likely agreed, thinking that as Lich-slaying adventurers, they would probably get a light punishment of service to repair the collateral damage they caused at the very worst, but Miko didn't know this. Violent criminals like the ones the Linear Guild and Xykon's crown painted the Order as would probably be like Belkar and only be more motivated to resist arrest when they found out she was a paladin.

Under no rational interpretation of the situation was Miko acting even remotely properly by attacking them.

That first line is where I disagree. I believe there are rational reasons for both courses of actions. I'm not saying how Miko acted was the best or only way to respond, just that it doesn't brand her as unquestionably non-Good any more than Roy's association with Belkar, Haley's thievery, or V's arrogance brands them as unquestionably non-Good.

Burner28

2010-12-16, 03:24 AM

.

That first line is where I disagree. I believe there are rational reasons for both courses of actions. I'm not saying how Miko acted was the best or only way to respond, just that it doesn't brand her as unquestionably non-Good any more than Roy's association with Belkar, Haley's thievery, or V's arrogance brands them as unquestionably non-Good.

since when was V a Good aligned character?

Raging Gene Ray

2010-12-16, 03:28 AM

since when was V a Good aligned character?

Shi's not. But shi's not UNQUESTIONABLY non-good due to hir arrogance; it's the Familicide that does that.

Burner28

2010-12-16, 03:30 AM

Shi's not. But shi's not UNQUESTIONABLY non-good due to hir arrogance; it's the Familicide that does that.

True Neutral is non Good. I assume you meant Non-Evil?

Raging Gene Ray

2010-12-16, 03:33 AM

True Neutral is non Good. I assume you meant Non-Evil?

What I meant was that hir arrogance by itself isn't what makes her non-Good. It makes hir alignment debatable, but, like Miko and Roy's arrogance, doesn't absolutely rule out a Good alignment

Zevox

2010-12-16, 04:17 AM

She said she would do so "if possible." Considering their crime and the kind of thing that happens to people who get in the way of those who try to take over the gates, attacking DID seem reasonable to me after I found out she was a paladin and not an assassin sent by some cabal or cult.
No accusations make it no longer possible to bring them back alive. The only possible situation in which you could claim it was reasonable for her to attack with the intent to kill them is if they displayed themselves to be hostile, intending to fight and kill her - in other words, if they left her no choice but to kill or be killed. As I said, they did nothing even remotely like that.

...and had lots of evidence against them...
She had hearsay, nothing more. I should hope I needn't point out why that is an incredibly bad thing to base a decision to kill someone on.

and WERE guilty of what they were accused of.
Irrelevant. She did not know this, and it was not her place to judge. You do not kill someone based on the accusation of a crime alone, regardless of whether they are or aren't guilty of it. That is what trials are for.

The time between giving no indication and firing off Disintegrates and ranged attacks is minuscule. If she, the Order, or any adventurer let every opponent win initiative, they'd be dead by now.
An argument which is paranoid at best. She had no reason to believe they would attack her. Her attack was unprovoked and unjustified. She simply declared herself judge, jury, and executioner, and decided that anything less than immediate, unquestioning compliance with her demands meant she would kill them. That is not a reasonable action.

I hardly think it qualifies as "unquestionably not LG."
I don't agree with LuisDantas' assertion that Miko's alignment was never Lawful Good, just so that's clear. Her actions there, though? Definitely not.

That first line is where I disagree. I believe there are rational reasons for both courses of actions.
Then we will not agree. Miko's actions when she first met the Order were by no means rational, and were the first sign of just what sort of individual she really was.

I'm not saying how Miko acted was the best or only way to respond, just that it doesn't brand her as unquestionably non-Good any more than Roy's association with Belkar, Haley's thievery, or V's arrogance brands them as unquestionably non-Good.
This, however, I'll agree with. That one action certainly doesn't make her unquestionably non-Good. It was certainly very far from a good action in itself, but it was only one action.

Zevox

Raging Gene Ray

2010-12-16, 05:02 AM

She had hearsay, nothing more. I should hope I needn't point out why that is an incredibly bad thing to base a decision to kill someone on.

Not when there is a good chance that they're the sort of people who would likely kill you given the chance.

An argument which is paranoid at best.

True...I just have a paranoid mindset. Which is probably why I never saw anything wrong with Miko until the throne-room scene. And, even then, only when she brought the katana down.

faustin

2010-12-16, 05:10 AM

Zevox

2010-12-16, 05:21 AM

Not when there is a good chance that they're the sort of people who would likely kill you given the chance.
Except there wasn't, and the only information that she had which could possibly cause even her to think that they were was precisely the hearsay that I mentioned was an extremely bad basis for such decisions.

True...I just have a paranoid mindset. Which is probably why I never saw anything wrong with Miko until the throne-room scene. And, even then, only when she brought the katana down.
:smalleek: Yes, that would be a good indication of a paranoid mindset, to say the least. Miko in the throne room was at her craziest.

Zevox

Burner28

2010-12-16, 08:23 AM

:smalleek: Yes, that would be a good indication of a paranoid mindset, to say the least. Miko in the throne room was at her craziest.

Zevox

Yep she was. Also, to those who says that Miko was never LG-yes yes she was. Sure she came across as a major jerk, but she was a frikkin Paladin. one of the requirements of being a paladin is that you stay LG IIRC.

Deliverance

2010-12-16, 10:58 AM

Except there wasn't, and the only information that she had which could possibly cause even her to think that they were was precisely the hearsay that I mentioned was an extremely bad basis for such decisions.

Well, that and being send to apprehend individuals, who the diviners of the Sapphire Guard had determined were responsible for the destruction of a gate that was kin to the one whose defence was the entire reason for the existence of the Sapphire Guard in the first place (in fact Shojo had been tipped of by Eugene, but that doesn't change the information that Miko was acting on). The Order of the Stick were known to Miko to be responsible for the destruction of a gate that had been under the protection of an epic level wizard and would, as such, be assumed both powerful and dangerous by anybody sane sent to apprehend them if possible, kill them if not.

If I were sent take into custody or kill a group of people, whom infallible diviners had determined were responsible for crimes against existence that were unlikely to have been possible without the destruction of an epic wizard, a group whose leader showed up as strongly evil to my align-o-scope vision, and a group who appeared to have cut a trail of havoc along their route of travel committing numerous violent crimes, then I can damn well assure you that I would do exactly what Miko did - demand immediate and unconditional surrender and failing to get that do the best to kill them immediately before they could kill me - since the job I was being sent to do was one suited for a soldier, not one suited for a policeman. You give an armed enemy in close quarters exactly one chance to surrender (if you give him a chance at all).

Zevox

2010-12-16, 11:31 AM

Well, that and being send to apprehend individuals, who the diviners of the Sapphire Guard had determined were responsible for the destruction of a gate that was kin to the one whose defence was the entire reason for the existence of the Sapphire Guard in the first place (in fact Shojo had been tipped of by Eugene, but that doesn't change the information that Miko was acting on). The Order of the Stick were known to Miko to be responsible for the destruction of a gate that had been under the protection of an epic level wizard and would, as such, be assumed both powerful and dangerous by anybody sane sent to apprehend them if possible, kill them if not.

If I were sent take into custody or kill a group of people, whom infallible diviners had determined were responsible for crimes against existence that were unlikely to have been possible without the destruction of an epic wizard, a group whose leader showed up as strongly evil to my align-o-scope vision, and a group who appeared to have cut a trail of havoc along their route of travel committing numerous violent crimes, then I can damn well assure you that I would do exactly what Miko did - demand immediate and unconditional surrender and failing to get that do the best to kill them immediately before they could kill me - since the job I was being sent to do was one suited for a soldier, not one suited for a policeman. You give an armed enemy in close quarters exactly one chance to surrender (if you give him a chance at all).
Divination magic is not infallible. If it were, there would be no need for a trial. The purpose of a trial is to determine whether there is sufficient evidence of the accused party's guilt for them to be punished for the actions they are accused to have committed. If divination spells could actually tell them for certain that the Order was guilty, there wouldn't be any justification for bringing them back for a trial, and Shojo would have had to find another way to recruit the Order.

Besides, where you'd get that notion in the first place is beyond me. Divination magic has always been susceptible to being fooled by other magic. That's why Cliffport refused to use it in their legal system, remember?

Miko was sent to bring back accused criminals for trial, and directly ordered to bring them back alive if at all possible. She elected instead to threaten to kill them unless they immediately surrendered the moment she caught up with them, without so much as saying who she was or what authority she could possibly claim to have to demand their surrender with. She then didn't so much as give Roy the chance to finish asking for an explanation before starting her attack. Her actions were completely and utterly unreasonable.

Zevox

Deliverance

2010-12-16, 01:30 PM

Besides, where you'd get that notion in the first place is beyond me.

Because I was writing about Miko's motivation, not about how I view divine magic in D&D, and Miko is clear on that issue in #203 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html).

Divination magic has always been susceptible to being fooled by other magic. That's why Cliffport refused to use it in their legal system, remember?

Yep, but Miko isn't working for Cliffport. She is part of the Sapphire Guard, whose diviners she believes "do not make mistakes about such things". To her, that the "OOTS are the ones that destroyed the gate" is a truth even when there's doubt about her own information gathering because she has been told by those who do not make mistakes.

In the absence of an evil alignment, she may be open to there being other explanations than a deliberate destruction of the gate thus putting the question of whether they are innocent or guilty of deliberately "weakening the fabric of the universe by destroying the gate in the Redmountain hills" out of her hands and certainly the sentence, but that doesn't change the fact that, to her, she knows they are the ones who did it because she was told so.

Zevox

2010-12-16, 01:57 PM

Because I was writing about Miko's motivation, not about how I view divine magic in D&D, and Miko is clear on that issue in #203 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html).

Yep, but Miko isn't working for Cliffport. She is part of the Sapphire Guard, whose diviners she believes "do not make mistakes about such things". To her, that the "OOTS are the ones that destroyed the gate" is a truth even when there's doubt about her own information gathering because she has been told by those who do not make mistakes.
Gee, Miko doesn't understand magic and assumes that her side is infallible. What a shocker. Doesn't make her acting the way she did any more reasonable, just shows exactly how unreasonable she was.

Zevox

Zmflavius

2010-12-16, 02:17 PM

Gee, Miko doesn't understand magic and assumes that her side is infallible. What a shocker. Doesn't make her acting the way she did any more reasonable, just shows exactly how unreasonable she was.

Zevox

However, what this essentially means is that she reached a "rational" conclusion using incredibly irrational assumptions.

Deliverance

2010-12-16, 02:54 PM

Gee, Miko doesn't understand magic and assumes that her side is infallible. What a shocker. Doesn't make her acting the way she did any more reasonable, just shows exactly how unreasonable she was.

Of course she acts unreasonable much of the time!

It is practically part of the class description in D&D and all of the OOTS universe paladins from Lien through Hinjo over O-chul to the grand high poobah nutcase himself, Soon, act unreasonable (when compared to what would be considered the norm) much of the time. The only thing that truly differentiates them is in which particular ways they are unreasonable.

She's a member of an order of fanatic fascists, who claim universal jurisdiction for enforcing their own arbitrary rules about how other people should behave and justify it with a mandate from a glorified petting zoo. An order that considers the deliberate destruction of civilian populations of other species an acceptable tool to carry out their goals. An order that is based in a city that they rule from the shadows because the order itself is a secret to the public. It is possible that they may not like what they do at times, but they do it nevertheless no matter who gets hurt.

We are talking about an order that considers it the right thing to do to send a single agent away on a journey to faraway lands, where common people may not even know of their order or their city and certainly have zero reason to accede to any requests the agent might make, in order to make a group of people come to their city to stand trial on capital charges for something that nobody but the order itself thinks they have the jurisdiction over (and may not consider a crime), this single agent supposed to do so by force if need be and to kill the group if that cannot be done.

I mean, who but a lunatic could be expected to accede to any demands that such an agent made to travel hundreds of kilometers out of his way to stand trial for something in the agent's home city that the agent has zero legal standing to demand unless he is forced? And who but a lunatic would send out an agent with such a mission in the first place believing that the agent would actually manage to either convince the people he was sent after to return with him or subdue them and transport them back alone?

Does that scream sanity or reasonableness to you? Not to me. The latter scheme was admittedly the brainchild of Shojo, who was not a paladin, and his plan was based on deceiving his paladins about he nature of the OOTS, but it was acceptable as a plan that made sense to the paladins (high int not a requirement). :smallbiggrin:

Face it. Miko may be unreasonable not only in those scenes but in general, but she was sent on an utterly unreasonable mission in the first place by an utterly unreasonable order.

Dalek-K

2010-12-16, 04:52 PM

Small thing that popped into my head while reading this last page...

If you have no jurisdiction by law as in the country you are in doesn't recognize you as a police force by any stretch of the imagination then wouldn't it be breaking the law to go into said country without their permission to act as a police force?

All the countries seem to give the ok with being adventurers but a group of people who has been around quite a bit doesn't know the saphire gaurd is which would make me believe that the country they are in doesn't recognize the saphire gaurd.

Therefore wouldn't that break the paladin's code of being LG? By impeading on another country (that is not doing evil upon people) rights as a nation is an evil act.

Really she should have lost her paladin powers as soon as she carried out her "evil" mission.

But the b**** be crazy no matter what you think lol

veti

2010-12-16, 05:08 PM

If you have no jurisdiction by law as in the country you are in doesn't recognize you as a police force by any stretch of the imagination then wouldn't it be breaking the law to go into said country without their permission to act as a police force?

Yes, it would.

(Edit: Well, it might - it depends on how that country feels. Most countries nowadays have pretty strong views on that sort of thing, but in a much-less-densely populated world with a less developed social and legal infrastructure, they might be a lot more relaxed. It's open for speculation.)

But - long story short - being "lawful" does not mean you are always bound by the laws of wherever you happen to be. And it's certainly not "evil", by any D&D rules, to be acting illegally. (If someone actually tried to arrest her, then things might get a little more interesting, but until then there's really no reason for her to even think about it.)

faustin

2010-12-16, 05:21 PM

I don´t know it´s a good moment to ask it but, ¿is it supposed to be any chance of feedback between the forum and the author? Any possibility he read the thread and says "Ok, let´s give the populace some bread, circus and a pair of vignettes of Miko afterlife.""

KillItWithFire

2010-12-16, 06:02 PM

Snowballs chance in Hell. While it's certainly not immpossible as he has done it before, he's never done it for something like this that really has no bearing on anything other than setting a few peoples hearts at rest.

Warren Dew

2010-12-16, 07:20 PM

I disagree. As you can gather from Roy's speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) after the inn burned down, Miko was slipping from her LG alignment for a good long time before she actually fell from paladin status. Her time in jail just showed that same not-quite-LG behavior, but AFTER she'd crossed a Moral Event Horizon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralEventHorizon).

It sounds like you agree with my basic point rather than disagreeing, then, that Miko's behavior after falling was basically he same as her behavior before falling.

Okay, this is the part that puzzles me about the comic as a whole. I never saw anything wrong with how Miko treated others. At all. The Order failed to prevent the destruction of the inn and she got mad. She didn't forget it because it had served its story purpose and the innkeeper was just a pointless NPC. She actually was aware that the destruction left in their wake has an impact on others. V refused to literally left a finger to benefit the peasants, she got mad at him for that. When Elan called her "mean," he sounded more like an overly sensitive petulant child than a dispenser of simple, childlike wisdom. Belkar murdered her ally, nearly murdered her, robbed her, and provoked her...she tried to kill him rather than stick him in the same prison he just escaped from.

I know that means my mind works much differently from the author's and most of the forum's, but she seemed more polite than most (if not all) of the members of the Order.

I feel the same way you do. My theory about this is based on a difference between my outlook and that of typical D&D players: to most D&D players, NPCs don't count.

I'm guessing that's the outlook that causes people to come to such a negative judgement of Miko. If one believes that the innkeeper was just a pointless NPC and the destruction of the inn was just a story point, then Miko's getting all heated up about that destruction just shows how she gets upset about nothing. The PCs are the people who matter, and it's automatically assumed that they're in the right - so trying to arrest them automatically makes her bad, and it can only go downhill from there.

This theory also goes a long way towards explaining attitudes towards Belkar and Tarquin. The slaves that were crucified are just nameless NPCs, but the bright dots spelling out Elan's name - that matters, because that was a cool way to try to be nice to Elan, who is a PC.

I'm not saying people consciously think those thoughts, just that those perceptions are subconsciously established that way. Only once the opinions have already been established - Miko bad, Tarquin good - comes the search for halfway logical rationalizations to support those opinions.

Chicks dig winners.
Not to mention that, having just seen all her coworkers slaughtered, she might logically conclude that her only alternative is to be slaughtered as well. She'd probably be right, too.

Zevox

2010-12-16, 07:54 PM

I feel the same way you do. My theory about this is based on a difference between my outlook and that of typical D&D players: to most D&D players, NPCs don't count.

I'm guessing that's the outlook that causes people to come to such a negative judgement of Miko. If one believes that the innkeeper was just a pointless NPC and the destruction of the inn was just a story point, then Miko's getting all heated up about that destruction just shows how she gets upset about nothing. The PCs are the people who matter, and it's automatically assumed that they're in the right - so trying to arrest them automatically makes her bad, and it can only go downhill from there.

This theory also goes a long way towards explaining attitudes towards Belkar and Tarquin. The slaves that were crucified are just nameless NPCs, but the bright dots spelling out Elan's name - that matters, because that was a cool way to try to be nice to Elan, who is a PC.

I'm not saying people consciously think those thoughts, just that those perceptions are subconsciously established that way. Only once the opinions have already been established - Miko bad, Tarquin good - comes the search for halfway logical rationalizations to support those opinions.
Explain those of us that hate Miko but fully accept that Belkar and Tarquin are evil, then.

Frankly, I have no idea how you could possibly interpret Miko as you appear to. She was by no means some champion of NPCs. Just to use the one incident you mention, her concern after the incident at the inn was not the innkeeper or the patrons, it was berating the Order for choosing to stay at the inn instead of sleeping in a ditch as she had told them to, calling that "unmitigated greed," "giving in to vice and luxury," and "selfish behavior," and saying that she'll have to police their behavior carefully from then on "to keep you from straying from the right path." She views the destruction of the inn as nothing but punishment for their decision to stay there, and decided to use that as an opportunity to try and force her view of the proper lifestyle upon them.

What actually happened at the inn is nothing the Order could actually be blamed for, as it was a total accident. You'll also note they hardly displayed no concern for the NPCs, given that as soon as the group got together after discovering the assassins Roy sent Durkon to deal with evacuating the building, and that was before having any idea that the whole place could get blown up.

So no, hating Miko has absolutely nothing to do with one's views on NPCs, and frankly I cannot see where you get that notion in the least.

Zevox

Felixc-91

2010-12-17, 01:50 AM

Not to mention that, having just seen all her coworkers slaughtered, she might logically conclude that her only alternative is to be slaughtered as well. She'd probably be right, too.ummm, then why would she have slept with him latter, when her life was no longer in danger? your argument has the potential to make sense for only a single comic!

Felixc-91

2010-12-17, 02:07 AM

Deliverance

2010-12-17, 08:07 AM

bah! on the subject of divinations. a need for a trial is proof that the divinations in question are imperfect. Miko should have been able to make that connection herself. failing to do so is not a viable defence.
Just for the record, your conclusions depend entirely on your assumption about the legal system involved, that the object of a trial is to determine the question of guilt or innocence, which is the way the adversarial system works. (When it isn't as is all too common made a mockery through settlement or plea bargain)

Your assumption is probably right in this case - the farcical trial we get to watch in Azure City is clearly an adversarial trial, and they usually only take place in adversarial legal systems. (Though some authorities use adversarial for some crimes and inquisitorial for others the most common approach is overwhelmingly or exclusively to use one type).

I am rather surprised that an order or paladins would use the adversarial legal system rather than the inquisitorial, but whether that is a conscious choice on the part of the author or because it is the system he is used to, being an American, I don't know.

Souhiro

2010-12-17, 09:06 AM

Well, I won't mind to see Miko again, one way or another.

She indeed isn't alowed to be among the paladins, she didn't repent of any of her actions. But she gave her best, and died doing what she thinked it was the best.

Roy was able to climb mount celestia because "He keeps trying"So, if I was charged with judging Miko, I would say to her that she should increase her INT, and let her pass "in probation".

Altough she could pass a few centuries in purgatory before.

Warren Dew

2010-12-17, 03:45 PM

Your assumption is probably right in this case - the farcical trial we get to watch in Azure City is clearly an adversarial trial, and they usually only take place in adversarial legal systems. (Though some authorities use adversarial for some crimes and inquisitorial for others the most common approach is overwhelmingly or exclusively to use one type).
It's also, as you say, farcical. I think in light of the politics of Azure City, it's quite possible that the real purpose of the trial tradition there is to allow nobles a chance to obscure the truth, rather than always to illuminate it.

hamishspence

2010-12-17, 04:07 PM

Roy was able to climb mount celestia because "He keeps trying"So, if I was charged with judging Miko, I would say to her that she should increase her INT, and let her pass "in probation".

Altough she could pass a few centuries in purgatory before.

Problem is, standard D&D doesn't have a purgatory.

The closest equivalent, might be being a ghost (and not being able to pass on to any afterlife until a condition is fulfilled)- life on the Material plane as a ghost, knowing you can't get into the afterlife yet, might be pretty purgatorial.

Or the Hellbred Transformation from Fiendish Codex 2- a being who would normally be condmned to Baator- for, say, multiple corrupt acts, but who is genuinely repentant, gets reincarnated- and if they achieve some great good in this second life- they don't go to Baator but go to an appropriate plane

If they don't achieve some great goodness- victory for the force of good- defeat for the force of evil in this second life though, Baator gets them.