Can Wish actually be used by a summoned/Gate'd Efreet?

[mootoall]

From the SRD:


Summoning
A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.


Emphasis mine. The fact that Wish requires an XP component should make that cheese just a bit impossible, no?

[gbprime]

RIght, summon doesn't work. You need to use Gate, Planar Ally, or Planar Binding.

[Psyren]

In other words, Calling a creature and Summoning it are two different things.

[Tvtyrant]

Differences include a summoned creature being unable to summon other creatures, while a called creature can.

[DarkEternal]

To add to the topic, I was wondering, if you are on high enough level, does the DM decide what ally you get?

In my recent game, a character used said spell because one player couldn't show up so he used it to get one more spot filled, and called a Planar Ally. It says you can call one creature of 18 HD, or three creatures that add to that. However, it seems pretty vague on what creature you get, since basically your deity sends you one. Does the DM decide it? I flipped a coin to see if it would be an elemental or an outsider, landed on elemental, and then I chose from a list of Fire-Earth elementals since the cleric was a follower of Gond and that made some sense flavor wise.

But anyway, my question really, to not derail the topic, after you pay such being, do you have to pay for his spells-spell like abilities that have material components? Say that you summon a celestial that has a ressurection-true ress, or a Wish spell. Do you pay the XP cost-money or something or is that included in the price you pay for it to serve you? If so, it seems like a pretty nice exploit of having to pay less for it's services.

[gbprime]

To add to the topic, I was wondering, if you are on high enough level, does the DM decide what ally you get?

Short answer... yes. Each diety has a small set of things that can be called up by planar ally spells, and the DM determines what they are in absence of an official list. Most DM's would be open to reasonable substitutions, though, if the called critter is in keeping with the diety's motif. Just ask.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, supernatural abilities don't use xp or expensive materials unless it says they do in the description, even if that ability is based on a spell. An efreet's wish ability doesn't say one word about using xp. Raw, even a summoned efreet can produce a wish effect. The trick is getting your dm to let it fly.

[Psyren]

Actually, supernatural abilities don't use xp or expensive materials unless it says they do in the description, even if that ability is based on a spell. An efreet's wish ability doesn't say one word about using xp. Raw, even a summoned efreet can produce a wish effect. The trick is getting your dm to let it fly.

The clause "...would have cost XP if they were spells" is what stops that reasoning. As a spell, Wish costs XP, therefore a summoned Efreet won't use it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hm.... Must've missed some erratta.

In anycase, once you've got access to Planar Binding, it doesn't matter anymore anyway.

[Psyren]

Hm.... Must've missed some erratta.

In anycase, once you've got access to Planar Binding, it doesn't matter anymore anyway.

What errata? Mootoall quoted the entire applicable section in the OP, even bolding the part I just repeated. :smallconfused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

What errata? Mootoall quoted the entire applicable section in the OP, even bolding the part I just repeated. :smallconfused:

I don't remember that clause "if it were a spell" being in the book. I could be mistaken though. The srd as presented by d20srd.org includes all of the errata for the rules it presents.

[Psyren]

I don't remember that clause "if it were a spell" being in the book. I could be mistaken though. The srd as presented by d20srd.org includes all of the errata for the rules it presents.

Oh, I understand you now.
In my PHB it's page 173, Under "Conjuration" and the sub-heading "Summoning," but you may have a different version.

[Sir Swindle89]

Correct answer, yes it CAN cast it.

Right answer he can cast wish of course he already used it!

[Curmudgeon]

That Conjuration (summoning) limitation doesn't apply to a creature produced by a Conjuration (calling) spell, though.

So the remaining limitation for an Efreeti called via Gate is the 1/day allowance for their Wish SLA. It takes only 1 standard action to use a SLA, out of a full day.

How long the DM expects that valuable 1/day ability to go unused is the real issue here. Efreet are wise to this value, and as a DM I expect them to have arranged a bargain for that 1/day ability in advance and to have made the transaction in the first minute of their personal day.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Oh, I understand you now.
In my PHB it's page 173, Under "Conjuration" and the sub-heading "Summoning," but you may have a different version.

Huh. Mine too. Just a straight brain-fart I guess.

[Crow]

Eff-it george. Just use leadership to get an Efreeti cohort and be done with it.

[Psyren]

Eff-it george. Just use leadership to get an Efreeti cohort and be done with it.

Or Thaumaturgist, and get one as a planar cohort. (way more stylish imo)

[Telok]

11th level and higher wizards will always have access to efreet wishes if they can obtain the following spells:

Magic Circle Against Evil
Planar Binding
Symbol of Pain
Cone of Cold

You see, efreet are vulnerable to cold and only have about 65 hp. Once you have half a dozen efreet corpses hanging on your wall and three Symbols blasting the efreet from the second it is summoned, then they ought to be quite willing to put out a wish or two in order to be allowed to live. If they don't agree you just kill them, add the body to your collection, and summon another one the next day.

[mootoall]

11th level and higher wizards will always have access to efreet wishes if they can obtain the following spells:

Magic Circle Against Evil
Planar Binding
Symbol of Pain
Cone of Cold

You see, efreet are vulnerable to cold and only have about 65 hp. Once you have half a dozen efreet corpses hanging on your wall and three Symbols blasting the efreet from the second it is summoned, then they ought to be quite willing to put out a wish or two in order to be allowed to live. If they don't agree you just kill them, add the body to your collection, and summon another one the next day.

Hmm, would the killing of the Efreets make up for the XP loss from Planar Binding?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hmm, would the killing of the Efreets make up for the XP loss from Planar Binding?

um. Planar binding doesn't have an xp component.

[mootoall]

*Grumble faulty memory grumble* I was thinking Planar Ally.

[Kelb_Panthera]

11th level and higher wizards will always have access to efreet wishes if they can obtain the following spells:

Magic Circle Against Evil
Planar Binding
Symbol of Pain
Cone of Cold

You see, efreet are vulnerable to cold and only have about 65 hp. Once you have half a dozen efreet corpses hanging on your wall and three Symbols blasting the efreet from the second it is summoned, then they ought to be quite willing to put out a wish or two in order to be allowed to live. If they don't agree you just kill them, add the body to your collection, and summon another one the next day.

Actually, a series of debuffs and a greater eagles splendor can get you the results you want without resorting to violence.

[The Glyphstone]

11th level and higher wizards will always have access to efreet wishes if they can obtain the following spells:

Magic Circle Against Evil
Planar Binding
Symbol of Pain
Cone of Cold

You see, efreet are vulnerable to cold and only have about 65 hp. Once you have half a dozen efreet corpses hanging on your wall and three Symbols blasting the efreet from the second it is summoned, then they ought to be quite willing to put out a wish or two in order to be allowed to live. If they don't agree you just kill them, add the body to your collection, and summon another one the next day.

Additionally, that sort of mass strong-arming of the entire Efreet race is exactly the sort of tactics that would legitimately get you attention, of the sort you don't want from a race with effectively Wish at will. Better to Call, offer a bargain along the lines of 'two for me, one for you', and if they refuse, just send them back. Eventually you'll get one with the attitude of 'meh, okay, I'll have more to spend tomorrow', and you're good. Better to be known as 'that annoying mortal wizard who crank-calls random Efreet asking for wishes' than 'that obnoxious mortal wizard who's been systematically calling and murdering Efreet, and should be dealt with permanently'.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Okay, here's what you do. Summon up yourself an efreet. Hit him with mind fog. Then apply bestow curse twice, once to drop his cha by 6, once to reduce his checks and saves by 4. Hit him with enervation (preferably maximized) until he's got at least 3 negative levels applying another -3 to checks and saves. Then hit him with lesser geas. Make sure you don't let his effective HD get above 7 or you'll have to start the geas over again. He'll eventually cave. He may end up unconscious from cha loss a few times, but he will eventually give in.

[The Glyphstone]

Okay, here's what you do. Summon up yourself an efreet. Hit him with mind fog. Then apply bestow curse twice, once to drop his cha by 6, once to reduce his checks and saves by 4. Hit him with enervation (preferably maximized) until he's got at least 3 negative levels applying another -3 to checks and saves. Then hit him with lesser geas. Make sure you don't let his effective HD get above 7 or you'll have to start the geas over again. He'll eventually cave. He may end up unconscious from cha loss a few times, but he will eventually give in.

And what happens when you send him back? If you don't kill him after torturing him this way, he's going to be awfully upset, and the more Efreet you do this to, the more likely they'll either band together or recruit Efreet you haven't tormented yet out of self-defense, and you end up with a whole bunch of intelligent and evil Wish machines angry at you. If you do kill him, same effect, but delayed a little bit. All it costs you to avoid this is time (which you have plenty of) to find a voluntarily cooperative Efreet, and one wish of the three you want, per Efreet. Plus, once you get lucky and find a willing one, you might be able to talk them into some sort of long-term mutually beneficial deal.

[Kelb_Panthera]

And what happens when you send him back? If you don't kill him after torturing him this way, he's going to be awfully upset, and the more Efreet you do this to, the more likely they'll either band together or recruit Efreet you haven't tormented yet out of self-defense, and you end up with a whole bunch of intelligent and evil Wish machines angry at you. If you do kill him, same effect, but delayed a little bit. All it costs you to avoid this is time (which you have plenty of) to find a voluntarily cooperative Efreet, and one wish of the three you want, per Efreet. Plus, once you get lucky and find a willing one, you might be able to talk them into some sort of long-term mutually beneficial deal.

Two things. One: how many wishes do you really need? You do this maybe 10 times, tops. Two: Make wish number 3 something to the effect of remove the effreet's memory of this whole ordeal immediately the next time he engages in any form of planar travel.

[Jack_Simth]

11th level and higher wizards will always have access to efreet wishes if they can obtain the following spells:

Magic Circle Against Evil
Planar Binding
Symbol of Pain
Cone of Cold

You see, efreet are vulnerable to cold and only have about 65 hp. Once you have half a dozen efreet corpses hanging on your wall and three Symbols blasting the efreet from the second it is summoned, then they ought to be quite willing to put out a wish or two in order to be allowed to live. If they don't agree you just kill them, add the body to your collection, and summon another one the next day.
You really, really need to read the Efreeti fluff in the Monster Manual before you try this. Then realize that their Wish ability just specifies 'nongenies only', and there's lots of other critters on the plane of fire... oh yes, and Efreeti have Intimidate as a class skill, and can't fail to convince certain critters on the plane of fire to be 'friendly' for a time. Plus, they're Lawful, so mutual revenge pacts with each other are perfectly in line.

Have fun making 21 Will saves every day to avoid being dumped somewhere instantly fatal.

Have fun when every potential BBEG suddenly has three free wishes a day, just for the cost of actively seeking your death.

Have fun when bounties - big ones - start popping up for no apparent reason with your face on them.

And so on.

Really, if you start into Wish Abuse, the DM is well within his duty to lower the boom on you.


Two things. One: how many wishes do you really need? You do this maybe 10 times, tops. Two: Make wish number 3 something to the effect of remove the effreet's memory of this whole ordeal immediately the next time he engages in any form of planar travel.

Planar Binding inherits a pesky clause from it's lesser cousin: "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to."

How is "Oh yes, and wipe your memory of this event" not an unreasonable command?

[The Glyphstone]

Two things. One: how many wishes do you really need? You do this maybe 10 times, tops. Two: Make wish number 3 something to the effect of remove the effreet's memory of this whole ordeal immediately the next time he engages in any form of planar travel.

Unless you managed to condense the entire torture session into 5 minutes (the limit of Modify Memory),that's exceeding the 'safe' limits of a Wish's power, and begging for the 'partial fulfillment' clause to kick in....not even from malice, but simply from exceeding what the ability is capable of. And the only thing worse than an Efreet who wants you dead for torturing him is one who wants you dead and can't remember why.


EDIT: Oh, and everything Jack said, more eloquently than me.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You really, really need to read the Efreeti fluff in the Monster Manual before you try this. Then realize that their Wish ability just specifies 'nongenies only', and there's lots of other critters on the plane of fire... oh yes, and Efreeti have Intimidate as a class skill, and can't fail to convince certain critters on the plane of fire to be 'friendly' for a time. Plus, they're Lawful, so mutual revenge pacts with each other are perfectly in line.

Have fun making 21 Will saves every day to avoid being dumped somewhere instantly fatal.

Have fun when every potential BBEG suddenly has three free wishes a day, just for the cost of actively seeking your death.

Have fun when bounties - big ones - start popping up for no apparent reason with your face on them.

And so on.

Really, if you start into Wish Abuse, the DM is well within his duty to lower the boom on you.



Planar Binding inherits a pesky clause from it's lesser cousin: "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to."

How is "Oh yes, and wipe your memory of this event" not an unreasonable command?

Doesn't matter if it's unreasonable. He uses the wish that way because of the geas, not the planar binding. Besides, who says it's unreasonable? Would you want to remember being kidnapped, cursed, and mentally beaten into submission? As for it being within wish's power, it's no more powerful an effect than programmed amnesia, another 9th level spell. You could always make wish #3 a wish for a scroll of programmed amnesia/mindrape.

[Zeful]

Doesn't matter if it's unreasonable. He uses the wish that way because of the geas, not the planar binding. Besides, who says it's unreasonable? Would you want to remember being kidnapped, cursed, and mentally beaten into submission? As for it being within wish's power, it's no more powerful an effect than programmed amnesia, another 9th level spell. You could always make wish #3 a wish for a scroll of programmed amnesia/mindrape.

Hm, remember a torture so that I can direct resources toward having my tormentor captured/killed, and then easing my memory of the event, or forget it so that it'll only be forced back into my head so I can do the same...

I know which I would pick.

Besides effreet have a lawful society, so the dude probably had something approaching a job, not to mention a police force and hospital. Torturing/killing a group of effreet is only going to get you in trouble in the long run for a very small amount of gain.

[Psyren]

Doesn't matter if it's unreasonable. He uses the wish that way because of the geas, not the planar binding. Besides, who says it's unreasonable? Would you want to remember being kidnapped, cursed, and mentally beaten into submission? As for it being within wish's power, it's no more powerful an effect than programmed amnesia, another 9th level spell. You could always make wish #3 a wish for a scroll of programmed amnesia/mindrape.

Wishing for a different 9th-level spell is asking to be screwed with. Wish is meant to emulate 8th-level spells and lower - going above that is going outside the listed effects.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Another point: which part of what I've suggested is torturous? None of the spells I highlighted are described as being painful. Certainly humiliating, but not physically painful. How quick would you be to let all your friends and associates know some "weak mortal" snatched you away and bent you to his will? I'd be too embarrassed to tell anyone. Moreover, erasing the memory is different from forgetting. If you forget, you got over the experience and put it in the back of your mind. If the memory is erased it's as though the event never happened for you. Also, Zeful and Psyren, you've neglected my suggestion of simply making that final wish be a wish for a magic item that produces the effect of programmed amnesia or mindrape. With all of his saves already sunk to abysmal levels the efreet will not make the save against either of those spells.

[ericgrau]

Wouldn't a called creature have the same personal preferences as a summoned one? I mean just b/c the call rules don't say they won't use costly SLAs doesn't mean they will. Even the gate spell has special rules for longer or "more involved service" which involve giving up something of equal value in exchange for the service. A costly SLA may not be longer than the free option, but it sure of hades is more involved.

[senrath]

Personal preference has nothing to do with it. It's not that a summoned creature won't use SLAs that would have expensive components if they were spells, it's that they can't. There's no such restriction on called creatures.

[ericgrau]

Except "more involved service" and "fair trade" are from the wording in the gate spell. The creature is only under compulsion for more minor services.

[senrath]

Except "more involved service" and "fair trade" are from the wording in the gate spell. The creature is only under compulsion for more minor services.

Except that, by the wording of the Gate spell, any service that can be performed in under Rounds/CL is an immediate action, and thus free.

Using the Planar Binding or Planar Ally line of spells does require negotiation, of course. Just not the Gate spell.

[ericgrau]

It says longer OR more involved. I think you're doing the standard super-literal RAW-so-I-can-abuse-it method of interpretation. The example immediate task given is fighting in one combat. And if you handle it that way RAW directly contradicts itself a couple sentences later and if you're an over literal robot I think you're supposed to self destruct or something at that point.

I mean that's fine for thought exercises and amusing jokes like drowning to heal yourself, but not practically speaking and in this case even an overly literal interpretation falls apart.

[senrath]

Except that, given there's no definition for more involved, there's no real contradiction. And, honestly, I don't consider expending a single action and an easily renewable resource more "involved" than beating something up for you.

[Crow]

Seriously guys, Efreeti cohort. No questions asked.

[ericgrau]

Lol true the efreeti is messed up on his own. They aren't available as cohorts and they despise servitude anyway, but I bet you could find another way.

If OTOH you start using overly literal interpretation on a gate you're only asking for the DM to use an overly literal interpretation of your wish to screw you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162895).

[Irreverent Fool]

Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm).

That is all.

[senrath]

If your DM does that, either you were asking for far too much, or they were going to do it anyway. And how is that an overly literal interpretation of the Gate spell, anyway? How is using a couple of SLAs for the person who summoned you any more involved than fighting, and possibly dying, for that person?

[Psyren]

Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm).

That is all.

Can a half-HD efreet use Wish? My monster rules are spotty at best.

[Curmudgeon]

Can a half-HD efreet use Wish? My monster rules are spotty at best.
According to the Simulacrum spell,
It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). There are no Efreet with half the listed HD of the base 10 HD creature, so there are no special abilities appropriate for a creature of that level.

You would need to use Simulacrum to make a duplicate of a Huge 20 HD Efreeti to get the 10 HD abilities.

[Aquillion]

Or you could just make a fair bargain with the Efreet.

They can't grant wishes to themselves, only for others. So in exchange for it granting two wishes for you (a Candle of Invocation and your real wish), you use one of your wishes on its behalf. This takes all of 30 seconds out of its day, and it gets a free wish at absolutely no other cost. Why on earth would it object to an offer like that?

[Ruinix]

excuse me, but isn't more easy be a druid / planar shepard and use form Efreet and use ur wish as u want ? insteed of all this torture/asking/whatever to a summoned or called efreet.

[Psyren]

excuse me, but isn't more easy be a druid / planar shepard and use form Efreet and use ur wish as u want ? insteed of all this torture/asking/whatever to a summoned or called efreet.

That depends on your definition of "easy." Gate/Planar Binding are core, while Planar Shepherd is from a setting-specific splat - the former will therefore be in more games.

[Ruinix]

That depends on your definition of "easy." Gate/Planar Binding are core, while Planar Shepherd is from a setting-specific splat - the former will therefore be in more games.

point taken ¬¬

[senrath]

Not to mention an Efreet cannot use its Wishes on itself.

[Aquillion]

Not to mention an Efreet cannot use its Wishes on itself.Well, it's not hard to bully random commoners into making wishes that you want. Or you can just summon things and order them to make the wishes for you, or just have your party mates make the wishes you want.

However, if you're a Planar Shepard, who cares? You're already the one class that makes straight Druid look comparatively weak, so it's not like you need tricks like that.

[Psyren]

Not to mention an Efreet cannot use its Wishes on itself.

I believe the idea is to grant wishes to your party. Good luck if they try to cross you, you're a freaking Planar Shepherd!

Also; doesn't Wild Shape leave your creature type unchanged? Therefore you wouldn't actually become a genie and could grant yourself your own wishes.

[senrath]

...you're right. Wild Shape doesn't change your type.

[Psyren]

As if Planar Shepherd needed more bork... Forget I said anything...

[Ruinix]

wild shape dosn't change ur type, that is done by planar shepard PrC.

[Psyren]

wild shape dosn't change ur type, that is done by planar shepard PrC.

The Planar Shepherd ability is still Wild Shape. Wild Shape does not change your creature type.


Wild Shape (Su)

At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here.


Alternate Form
...
The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.

[mootoall]

But Planar Sheperd specifically makes your wildshape closer and closer to Shapechange as it progresses, no?

[Ruinix]

But Planar Sheperd specifically makes your wildshape closer and closer to Shapechange as it progresses, no?

yes and chenge your born plane to the plane of ur choose for the planar shepard, turning in outsider in any other plane exept that one.

althrought at lev 9 of Planar Shepherd u can wild shape to any great form of that plane and in addition of normal effects of WS, u gain extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities of the choosed form. so as djin u gain your wishes ^^

[Psyren]

But Planar Sheperd specifically makes your wildshape closer and closer to Shapechange as it progresses, no?

Yes. The problem is that it never actually stops being Wild Shape, which means all the alternate form attributes still apply.

And yes, as a djinn/efreet you do gain wishes - you just aren't a genie yourself.

[mootoall]

Yes. The problem is that it never actually stops being Wild Shape, which means all the alternate form attributes still apply. And yes, as a djinn/efreet you do gain wishes - you just aren't a genie yourself. So ... broken ... "I'm gonna take my 10 actions/round and make three of them FREE WISHES!"

[Psyren]

Well, you're already a Planar Shepherd; at that point balance is out the window anyway...

[Ruinix]

So ... broken ... "I'm gonna take my 10 actions/round and make three of them FREE WISHES!"

???

if u toke the plane in wich give you the rate of 1/10, then u can't wild shape into a efreet.

anyway for those loops of time rates on brilliantgameologists boards there was a build in wich use some rare loop for transform one self into a beholder mage and had some sort of a modified rate of time 1:110

[Psyren]

if u toke the plane in wich give you the rate of 1/10, then u can't wild shape into a efreet.


That's why you take Region of Dreams (MotP pg. 201)
Native creatures: All
Flowing Time (10:1 ratio)
Highly Morphic
Mild Neutral

[mootoall]

That's why you take Region of Dreams (MotP pg. 201)
Native creatures: All
Flowing Time (10:1 ratio)
Highly Morphic
Mild Neutral

Yup. It's nice using setting specific classes with non-setting specific material.

[Psyren]

Yup. It's nice using setting specific classes with non-setting specific material.

You sort of have to do that, since the Druid class table isn't printed in ECS or FoE. :smalltongue: