[PF] How to Build a Tiefling Vindicator?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm preparing for another Pathfinder game, wherein I will be playing a Tiefling Cleric of Iomedae. I've got the character made at first level, but I'm trying to decide exactly how I want him to progress. I've got my sights set on the Holy Vindicator prestige class, and wanted to know what the best setup might be? I'm mostly concerned about what feats to take.

SEE THE NEW BUILD PLAN AND STATS IN MY MOST RECENT POSTS

With racial modifiers of +2 CON, +2 WIS, -2 CHA instead of the traditional tiefling racial modifiers because of the Fiendish Heritage feat selected at first level (with the Devil-Spawned variation). The feat also granted him a random benefit from a chart in the article the feat came in, and I rolled that he has an extra eye which grants him All-Around Vision, meaning he's immune to flanking. Also, he has the following traits:

Infernal Bastard, which changes his racial resistances to saving throw bonuses of +2 against fire, cold and electricity and changes the at-will Darkness power to the ability to cast a 0-level spell he's able to cast of his choice at will (I picked Detect Magic). The trait's actually made to weaken the bonuses a tiefling gets to put him on a power level closer to normal 1st-level races.

Birthmark, which gives him a birthmark that he can use as a holy symbol and a +2 saving throw bonus against charms and compulsions.

Am I on the right track with this guy? Should I consider other options? What should I focus on, tactics-wise? Any and all advice would be appreciated. Thank you. :smallsmile:

[Mongoose87]

I don't know a lot about the Vindicator, but I do know I'd switch my Con and Dex, were I you.

[grarrrg]

Tiefling Cleric of Iomedae...I have no idea what to select for the remaining 5 feats. Do I boost his combat prowess? Make him better at channeling energy? At spellcasting?

You are already losing 3 caster levels, so I'd vote down on boosting spellcasting.
If you plan to focus on Channel Energy, then I'd recommend switching your Wis and Cha scores.
I also agree with the switching of Dex and Con. A Cleric has Medium Armor prof, and a Vindicator gains Heavy Armor prof, so you might as well make the best use of it.

If going melee, keep in mind that some of the Vindicators abilities only trigger on a critical hit, so if going melee I recommend taking the feats Critical Focus, Improved Critical, and anything that can boost your Attack Bonus.

If you haven't picked out your Domains yet, here's my take:
War looks like the best, between the primary, and sub-domain abilities all look decent.
Sun is probably the worst choice, unless you will be fighting LOTS of undead.
The Heroism sub-domain of Glory looks tempting, but neither Touch of Glory or Honor looks that great.
The lesser ability of Good and Law look about the same, both do Saving Throw bonuses, one does +attack, on does +AC. BOTH have access to the Archon sub-domain, penalizing opponents AC and Saving throws, Good also has acess to the Agathion sub-domain.

Definately pick War, then either Sun if you think you'll fight a lot of undead. Between Good, Law, and Glory, your 8th level ability can increase either your offense, your defense, or decrease the opponents defenses. Choose the one you like best.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

So, the better ability spread would be:

STR 15
DEX 11
CON 17
INT 14
WIS 20
CHA 14

Is that what you're saying?

Won't that hurt my saves (specifically reflex) and my conversational skills? We're playing Council of Thieves, and from what the GM's said, there will be undead, mostly vampires and shadows, especially during the middle of the campaign. However, we'll also be facing a whole lot of Devils, so would the Good domain be better with the ability to make my weapon holy, allowing it to bypass devilish DR?

And what is War's best benefit? I thought people only took War for the free Weapon Proficiency and Focus feats, which Pathfinder's War domain doesn't give. :smallconfused:

[grarrrg]

So, the better ability spread would be...
Won't that hurt my saves (specifically reflex) and my conversational skills?
Ok, minor confusion over whether your originally posted stats were before or after racial mods.
Keep Wis and Cha as you first had them, so Wis winds up 18 and Cha at 16
But still switch Con and Dex so you end up with Dex 11 and Con 17 after Racial.
Reflex is arguably the least important, if you think it will be necessary, you could always swap Int with it and have Dex 14, Int 11. Remember, in Pathfinder increasing your Int bonus retroactively gives you the skill points you should/would have gotten. Just like increasing your Con gives you +1hp/level.


We're playing Council of Thieves, and from what the GM's said, there will be undead,
Very well, Sun domain is IN.


Good domain be better with the ability to make my weapon holy, allowing it to bypass devilish DR?
And what is War's best benefit?

Good would be... good in this case, gains extra uses with extra levels, which DON'T need to be Cleric levels.
War would normally be decent because you could trade out the crappy Damage boost power for the subdomain of Tactics, and give most/all your party 2 chances to roll high Initiative. And the Weapon Master ability gives you a free 'floating' combat feat.

In the case of Undead/Devils, Good and Sun would overall be better.

[Caphi]

You don't need Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Weapon Focus. The -1 to attack and damage you "suffer" by using a longsword instead can be made up for by casting divine favor, bless, or magic weapon, and later aid or divine power. Then those feats can be diverted to something more useful to you.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

You don't need Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Weapon Focus. The -1 to attack and damage you "suffer" by using a longsword instead can be made up for by casting divine favor, bless, or magic weapon, and later aid or divine power. Then those feats can be diverted to something more useful to you.

Like what? It's more for coolness purposes than damage. Longswords just seem so...plebian. If that's the case, I might as well not take Tower Shield Proficiency as well, since the longsword would look wimpy next to it.

[Mongoose87]

Like what? It's more for coolness purposes than damage. Longswords just seem so...plebian.

If it helps, in reality, "Longswords," "Bastard swords" and "Greatswords" are all synonyms.

[grarrrg]

I'm a little slow tonight, I recommended taking Crit improving feats, without recommending good Crit weapons.
You need to land a Critical to use Divine Wrath or Divine Retribution, so a good range is recommended, but the save DC increases if the Damage multiplier goes up.
Assuming you want 1-handed so you can use a shield (not sure what if any 3.5 is allowed, so we'll stick to PF for now):
Best Crit Range
Rapier/Scimitar, Marital, 1d6, 18-20 / x2

Best Crit Multiplier
Heavy Pick, Martial, 1d6, 20 / x4

Middle of the road
Falcata, Exotic, 1d8, 19-20 / x3

There are other weapons with either 18-20 range, or x4 multiplier, but they are either lower base damage, exotic, or two-handed.
There is only _1_ weapon on the PFSRD with a better than 20 Crit range AND a better than x2 multiplier.

I'd give the Rapier a nod over the Pick because you get 3 times as many chances to stick a "Divine X", versus 20% better chance of them not making their save.
If you're willing to spend the feat for Exotic, then I'd take the Falcata over the Bastard Sword, it has 1 less damage on average, but has a better Crit Multiplier.


It's more for coolness purposes than damage. Longswords just seem so...plebian.
It may still be 'wimpy' next to your giant shield, but at least the Falcata has some style.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Hmmm...I think I might take the Scimitar, and have my character worship Sarenrae instead of Iomedae. Not only would I get access to the scimitar for free, but I wouldn't need to alter my domain choices, and Sarenrae's doctrine of redemption and healing may fit my character better than Iomedae's more hard-line stance against fiendkind.

Cleric 1 - Fiendish Heritage
Cleric 2
Cleric 3 - Alignment Channel
Cleric 4
Cleric 5 - Weapon Focus (scimitar)
Cleric 6
Cleric 7 - Leadership
Cleric 8
Holy Vindicator 1 - Improved Critical (scimitar)
Holy Vindicator 2
Holy Vindicator 3 - Critical Focus (scimitar)
Holy Vindicator 4
Holy Vindicator 5 -
Holy Vindicator 6
Holy Vindicator 7 -
Holy Vindicator 8
Holy Vindicator 9 -
Holy Vindicator 10
Cleric 9 -
Cleric 10

What are some other feats that would go well with this setup?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Oh, and here's the stat setup:

STR 15
DEX 11
CON 17
INT 14
WIS 18
CHA 16

If I boost WIS every time, it'll become

STR 15
DEX 11
CON 17
INT 14
WIS 23
CHA 16

Is that good?

[Mongoose87]

Unless you're going to splurge for some +stat tomes, I'd put one of those points in Str or Con.

[grarrrg]

If I boost WIS every time, it'll become
STR 15
DEX 11
CON 17
INT 14
WIS 23
CHA 16
Is that good?

It's good, but if you're going to be as melee as I think you are, you'll want to throw an extra point to Str and Con.

Edit: ninja'd!mongoosed!

Edit (Edit:): Just checked on Sarenrae possible domains, Fire and Healing are now options. Healing sucks. "Wow, I get cure spells for my domain slots. Like I can't already spontaneously cast cure spells anyway".
Fire on the other hand has potential. The Firebolt and Smoke basic abilities are 'meh'. The domain spells and Fire Resist/Immunity however, Cha-Ching!! Even if you go more Melee than caster, having a little 'boom' in your bag of tricks never hurts. As an added bonus NONE of the Domain spells are on the Cleric list. Also, who hasn't wanted to rampage around as a Huge Fire Elemental now and then? (elemental body iv)
I highly suggest switching out one of your domains for Fire.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Should probably take Fire and Good then. Especially since Fire's thematically appropriate for a Tiefling, especially since we'll be going against devils and my natural resistance to fire has been reduced to a saving throw bonus via one of my traits. Sun can probably be discarded since we won't be running into undead as often as we will devils. So the final stat spread should be:

STR 16
DEX 11
CON 18
INT 14
WIS 21
CHA 16

What about higher level feats? I'm not sure where to go, whether for more combat efficiency or how to really pimp out my energy channelling.

Alignment Channel can let you channel positive energy to damage evil outsiders like it would undead, right?

What kind of cohort should I attempt to obtain? I'd like something to be effective regardless of party makeup, but I don't want my cohort outshining anyone else, and judging by my combined level and CHA modifier once I actually get Leadership, I'll have a pretty potent cohort right out of the gate, especially since I'll technically have a base of operations and hopefully staying true to Sarenrae's ethos will give me a reputation for fairness and generosity.

[grarrrg]

Alignment Channel can let you channel positive energy to damage evil outsiders like it would undead, right?


Yes.


What about higher level feats?

Improved Initiative can't hurt, especially on a divine-gish build. You go first, 'buff yourself', 'they attack', 'you attack'.


What kind of cohort should I attempt to obtain? I'd like something to be effective regardless of party makeup,

Bard. End of discussion.
Focus on buffing the party, then they'll still have the spotlight, but the Bard will be helping.
It also helps as a Skill Monkey, just have it focus on skills that no one else has, that way you're not stepping on their toes, and the party will be happy when you have the right skill for the job.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Improved Initiative can't hurt, especially on a divine-gish build. You go first, 'buff yourself', 'they attack', 'you attack'.
Makes sense. Inititatives one mechanic everyone depends on.

Bard. End of discussion.
Focus on buffing the party, then they'll still have the spotlight, but the Bard will be helping.
It also helps as a Skill Monkey, just have it focus on skills that no one else has, that way you're not stepping on their toes, and the party will be happy when you have the right skill for the job.
Sounds good. Anything in particular I should know about building bards (odds are the cohort will have one or two NPC class levels initially, since we're going to train them to be more effective combatants after we meet them).

[grarrrg]

Sounds good. Anything in particular I should know about building bards (odds are the cohort will have one or two NPC class levels initially, since we're going to train them to be more effective combatants after we meet them).

As it's a cohort, you're DM may make some choices for you. Just work with what you get.

Firstly, it is hard to mess up a pure support Bard. They make bad primary characters because they are (relatively) boring, but as a cohort Boring = Good.
For race you can go Gnome and trade favored class bonuses for more rounds of Performance. And you get Con and Cha boosts, while loosing Str, which a Bard cohort doesn't need anyway.
Or Human, Bonus Feat and can trade favored bonus for extra Spells Known.

I'd recommend High Cha and Con, Decent Int and Dex, Str and Wis as dump stats. They need Cha for Performance and casting. Con to stay alive (they will be at least 2 levels below you). Int for Skills. Dex for AC (and some offense with Weapon Finesse). Will be mostly support, so Str isn't needed. They get good Will save progression, so Wis is less important.

Basically just have him stay near the back/out of the way, and give Bard-Song bonuses, while throwing the occasional spell. Any feats that will help his Song or spellcasting are good choices.