Tips for a Necromancer Mystic Theurge

[Maho-Tsukai]

I have always had a love for Black cloak type necromancer who lead legions of undead. However, the wizard class itself rather sucks with the whole "skeleton horde" thing...that is more the realms of clerics with their desecration and such. I have played Dread Necromancers and while they are the best for the skeley legion I have always searched for a way to make a wizard on par with a cleric as far as the skeley army and thus, to aid in this endeavor I attempted to make a MT based Necromancer to do just that.

The character, despite being an MT has no worries as far as MAD is concerned due to the fact he took academic priest at first level. Thus all of his clerics casting(bonus spells, spell levels he can cast ect..) is based on intelligence except for DCs, which are still Wis based. However, despite that, the cleric side is not used for offensive casting. Rather the cleric side of the character is used for desecrating, undead animation, party buffs, utility spells, summoning and generally anything that dose not require saves while the wizard side is used more offensively since due to academic priest I have focused this build almost exclusively on int meaning his wizard DCs are where they should be normally.

He's good at being a necromancer however there is one pickle I need to work out and that's where all of you come in. Ideally, I would like 9ths on both the wizard and cleric sides. However, I know this is most likely impossible without homebrew but I want to know if any of you here know a way I could gain 9ths on both the cleric and wizard side. If there is absolutely no way to do this other then homebrew then I would like to, at the least, have 9ths on the wizard side and 8ths on the cleric side so I can grab the ever lovely General of Undeath spell. So if there is a way to get 9ths on the wizard side and 8ths on the cleric side then that would be helpful.

If I am out of luck and can't get 8ths-9ths on the cleric side then I suppose 9ths on wizard and lower on cleric is not THAT bad though I really really want to use that general of undeath spell...

So, any ideas on how to do what I want to do after my 10 levels of MT are finished. Also, just so you know I used the alternate source spell method for entry into MT early.

[Tvtyrant]

Hmmmmm, well if your willing to give up Cleric for Druid you can get arcane hierophant. Otherwise after MT you can tack on some levels of True Necromancer, which isn't a good class but it advances both (and necomancer abilities). Finally there is Geomancer which turns your character into an anthropormorphic animal and lets you cast wizard spells as cleric spells (IE without spell failure).

[Maho-Tsukai]

Cleric is a necessary as druids don't get desecrate and lack any kind of necromancy and this is a necromancy focused character, so yeah. However, I posted up a new threads to get an opinion on a different build that uses TN. Basically that build is Wizard 3/Cleric 1/MT 2/TN 14. It gets 9ths on wizard and 8ths on cleric by level 20, and it would still use academic priest but I am not sure such a build would actually be playable....

[WarrenZig]

I would seriously recommend ignoring True Necromancer, all but one of it's abilities are once per day castings of spells you should already have enough of and the other ability is a constant desecration that only effects your undead at later levels. Here is what the Necromancers Handbooks says, which has a little bit of stuff about dual casters.

Top Ten Reasons True Necromancers Are Bad

1. At 14th level, you are five caster levels behind in both classes, so if the party Fighter took Leadership, and his cohort got Leadership, he’d actually be bringing more Necromancy to the table than you. As a fighter.

2. You have to take the Death Domain as a Necromancer Cleric, which is a waste of a Domain Slot when you are trying to be good at Necromancy.

3. In the early levels, you postpone your access to Animate Dead by 4 levels.

4. At 8th level a True Necromancer can create, but not control Ghouls. A Cleric at that level can control but not create Ghouls. Guess which is better? At 11th level, the True Necromancer gets the ability to control Ghouls, and the Cleric gets the ability to create them, so there’s no point at which this is advantageous.

5. The only unique ability of the True Necromancer class is unimpressive. Desecrate is a great spell, but it’s also a second level spell.

6. True Necromancers eventually get a bonus to Rebuking – at 17th level they have a +1 bonus to their Rebuking level. But at 7th level they have a 3 level penalty to their Rebuking level. So at low levels when rebuking is good they can’t use it, and at high levels when Rebuking doesn’t matter they don’t care.

7. True Necromancers are always going to have underwhelming Save DCs. Between MAD and the fact that they are often forced to use spells that are 3 spell levels lower than what the single-classed casters can use, they’re going to be out enough Save DC that it shows. A lot.

8. As a True Necromancer you have all the disadvantages of both a Cleric (the gods can take away all your spellcasting at any time), and a Wizard (you have Arcane Spell Failure, preventing you from wearing good armor). Also, your BAB and HPs stink when compared to a Cleric.

9. Control pools from Animate Dead actually don’t accumulate between your two classes. It’ right in the spell, if you cast the spell it considers all undead you control from all castings of Animate Dead, not just your Arcane or just your Divine castings of the spell. Some people say differently, and some even quote CustServ, but when was the last time you won an argument with your DM using the line "some guy on a board said that CustServ told him....."?

10. There is almost no synergy between Cleric and Wizard Necromancy. Any synergy you desperately want to find could be replicated by just taking the Apprentice feat at first level and having some Use Magic Device. Get yourself a couple of Wizard Scrolls or something. It’s a better buy than setting 5 caster levels on fire. Smart cookies can even get the right spell effects off monsters for free, no less.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I understand all that, but it dose not change the fact that a pure wizard will utterly be fail at making an undead legion and is more in line with a WoW warlock as far as dark magic goes.(Soul draining, debuffs and demon's(Planar binding) doing the bulk of your work while the undead animation is just tagged on for fun...Cleric is still a better animator then you.)...So the MT based idea is to create a traditional arcane necromancer who has a nice, big, cleric-size army of zombies rather then a few elite undead to act as meat shields while he debuffs and soul drains. I know, I know, Dread Necromancer. I have played DNs. I love DNs but frankly there are times when I want to be an arcane necromancer with an undead legion AND versatility, and the DN dose not give you that. I know "play a cleric" but I frankly don't much like the RP of a cleric.(Not the whole serving a god thing but the high wis thing. I prefer high cha and high int characters to high wis ones for RP.)

So, really, a lot of my issue is RP, but I just have always longed for a wizard with a big legion of undead and in 3.5e without homebrew that seems like an impossibility without access to the cleric list, and a MT build gives you acssess to the cleric list. I SUPPOSE I could use an archivist and take contemplative to get the necessary domains. That way I have the cleric list without the high wis/cleric RP aspect. The only issue I have heard is that archivists are crappy at necromancy though I honestly don't see how that is possibly since they get all the necessary cleric spells and can pick up the needed domains from PrCs such as contemplative. The only things they lack are Rebuke and spontaneous inflicts but even without spontaneous inflicts they can heal undead just fine and Rebuking is not really all that great anyway. If they need to control some undead they can get Control Undead/Command Undead via Contemplative domains or simply learning said spells via scrolls and such because Domain spell lists TECHNICALLY are divine spell lists meaning if I can "pass a diplomacy check" I can get my DM to allow me to learn command/control undead spells via scrolls.

So perhaps I should just screw the MT idea and go archivist/contemplative? Perhaps with a necromancy-themed PrC thrown in for good measure?

[TheGeckoKing]

Do you have the Dragon Compendium? There's an Arcane Prepared Caster Base Class called the Death Master in there, and it's quite cool. Undead servant for a familiar (It can be upgraded, up to a Specter at 15th level), and Animate Undead as a 2nd Level spell, too. I think it's what your looking for, but Dragon Mag stuff is quite......iffy.

[WarrenZig]

I know EXACTLY how you feel about arcane necromancy (though i personally preferred a couple uber elite undead minions to an army) and if you want to be arcane and have an army of zombies BIGGER than a cleric i would recommend a Pale Master also from Libris Mortis. (they do lose 1 char level)

A 10th level PM can preform a save or die touch attack and if the victim fails the save it comes back as a zombie serving the PM and the best thing is that it specifically states you can have an unlimited amount of these zombies, and they don't effect your normal controlled undead. (It may take awhile though) and at 9th you also get a free undead cohort.

You should really check out the necromancer handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook) for a bunch of tips and even a few build ideas later on. (Uttercold Assault Necromancer is my fave)

[Sception]

In general mystic theurges are never as good as they look, baring some dubious early entry gimmick.

A wizard can be a great necromancer. Here are some keys to wizardly necromancy:

1) Command Undead (2nd level spell). Read this spell carefully. Read it again. Total domination of a mindless undead target for caster level days per casting, no hit role, no save. So basically, you can make tons of whatever the strongest undead you can animate is, and control any excess with this spell. A key tool in the wizard necromancer's arsenal, and once the cleric doesn't have access to (barring Eberron's necromancy domaion).

2) Awaken Undead (I forget the level, it's in Spell Compendium). Lots of tricky stuff you can do with this. Clerics again need to rely on particular domains to get it.

3) Magic Jar. Command your most powerful undead to voluntarily fail its save against this spell. Now you are a monstrous undead necromancer. Carry your body around with you in an adamantine coffin.

4) Cold damage. Sadly I'm out of practice, so I forget where all of these feats come from, so you'll have to do some research, but there is a feat (fell frost, maybe?) that makes your cold spells deal 1/2 negative energy damage, so now they heal your undead for half their damage. Your skeletons are already immune to cold, so with some energy substitutioned fell frost area & wall spells you can cover the battlefield in damaging zones that heal your undead at the same time.

5) spellstitched undead template. Complete arcane, only sorcerers and wizards can do it, give your undead spell like abilities. Very expensive (to the point that the price may be borked, check with your DM), but still potentially quite useful.


And then there's the standard stuff that any necro character can use, wizard or cleric:

1) rod of undead mastery (libris mortis), control 2x your normal undead limit

2) ring of something or other (I think libris mortis also, you'll have to look around, again, I'm sorry, out of practice), bonus max hit dice for undead you animate. Doesn't stack with desecrate, so better for wizards then clerics

3) Corpse crafter feats - regular corpse crafter and destruction retribution in particular.


And then there's the stuff that any wizard can do, but that a necro can take extra advantage of:

1) there's a touch attack in the frostfell book that deals like 3d6 frost damage. This will render pretty much any dragon in the game completely helpless. Summon undead IV or V lets you summon a creature (allip, maybe?) that deals wisdom damage on a touch to your now helpless dragon. Once it's wis is gone, it will fail it's save against magic jar. Congratulations, you're now a dragon wizard necromancer.



Seriously, Necromancer wizards have a lot of tools available that their clerical counterparts look to with envy. Don't gimp yourself over with lost caster levels, mystic theurge isn't worth it. Necromantic wizards work perfectly well on their own.

About the only lost caster level that I would even consider is a 2+ level trip into pale master to save money on Animate Dead.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I have experience with the death master. It's powerful and good, but it still is not cleric/wizard level versatile. It's more versatile then a DN for sure, but it is nowhere near cleric or wizard level and lacks fun spells like General of Undeath, Black sand ect... A lot of those obscure, non-core spells can be quite fun. I SUPPOSE I could try and convince my DM to expand the spell list beyond core, though that's easier said then done.

It's still a powerful class though and has more versatility then a DN, but is it as versatile a wizard? Not to me. It has VERY powerful spells and can be a good necromancer but it's those fun, maybe not totally useful but flavorful obscure spells that it lacks. Also, in regards to tiers. Some say it's tier 1. I say it's close to tier 1 not exactly tier 1. It's more limited then EVERYTHING else on tier 1 but less limited then pretty much all of tier 2, so technically it would fall somewhere between tier 1 and tier 2....tier 1.5 I guess? It's no wizard or cleric, but it's not as limited as a sorcerer either...so yeah.


As for wizards? They don't suck at necromancy itself. There is more to necromancy then having a legion of undead. However, when it comes to the legion of undead a wizard will suck at it. Wizards are, as I said, more or less like Warlocks in WoW who replace demons with undead. They animate a small force of elites to stand behind while they debuff and drain enemies. Simply put a cleric will ALWAYS have more undead then a Wizard. The Wizard Necro is more about quality then quantity, he dose not run around with lots and lots of skeletons. He instead has a small force of elites to protect him while he drains souls and debuffs people to oblivion. That's not being BAD at necromancy at all since there is more to necromancy then the legion. However, I am specifically looking for the legion, so therefore a Wizard's brand of necromancy dose not deliver what I want. In simple terms Clerics, DNs and Death Masters(to a lesser extent) focus on the legion while a Wizard focuses on draining, soul manipulation, debuffs ect.. and all the "non-animation" aspects of necromancy, which are still Necromancy, but not the massive undead legion kind I am looking for.

So, no Wizards do not suck at necromancy. They suck at creating a large undead legion. There is a difference between the two since necromancy is more then just having armies of undead.

[Tvtyrant]

4) Cold damage. Sadly I'm out of practice, so I forget where all of these feats come from, so you'll have to do some research, but there is a feat (fell frost, maybe?) that makes your cold spells deal 1/2 negative energy damage, so now they heal your undead for half their damage. Your skeletons are already immune to cold, so with some energy substitutioned fell frost area & wall spells you can cover the battlefield in damaging zones that heal your undead at the same time.


Your thinking about Lord of the Uttercold from Complete Arcane.


To all of the people who are against MT types; how many of you have actually played a MT? Yes it has issues with power, but it gets an almost endless number of spell slots to make up for it.

And my suggestion was MT 10/TN for the rest. Then you get the 8's you want faster then with straight TN.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, however, however, I don't think MT 10 /TN X would give me 9ths until epic. I would rather have to wait until level 20 to have 9ths on one side then get 8ths earlier but have to wait until epic to get any 9ths at all. So yeah..

Edit: I misscalculated, I would still get 9ths with MT 10/TN X on the wizard side like I want provided I used the alternate source spell method.

[TheGeckoKing]

If yor desperate for this to work, I think we'll be needing some Ur-Priest involved.

[Maho-Tsukai]

the character dose not need to be a theruge type. I simply want a non-cleric, non-DN necromancer who can at the least equal a cleric when it comes to having a large legion of undead but still have those fun, obscure spells that wizards and clerics get.(General of Undeath, Black Sand ect..). A standard wizard can't do that so that's why I looked at theurge classes. I have said above that archivist may be a way to achieve what I want...I also considered perhaps asking a DM if I can expand the death master's spell list. I am not married to the idea of a theurge.

I AM married to the idea of having a non-cleric, non-DN necromancer who can still be good at making undead legions but not miss out on some of those fun, obscure spells. Ideally I would like a PrC or something to add onto a wizard that can allow the wizard to have an undead legion of cleric size but no such PrC exists, even in 3rd party(Or at the least the 3rd party I have found.). I have scoured the web for 3rd party books on necromancy. Spent tons of money on countless third party necromancy based pdfs and none of them have provided a way for a wizard to have an undead legion of a scale/size equal to what a cleric can get....but if anybody knows of some 3rd party or even homebrew that dose that please let me know.

Of course I COULD always just make a version of Rainbow Servant that's re-fluffed into being evil and not psudo-Mayan. :smallamused:

[WarrenZig]

outside of 3rd party stuff i still think a pale master would allow you to make a bigger army of the dead than a cleric.

If you want some third party stuff you want i think you should check out Frank and K's Tome of Necromancy, which is in a link at the top of the revised necromancer handbook page.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I know of the tome of Necromancy but Frank and K's material is VERY powerful...usually to powerful for most DMs. Thus, when anybody uses anything from Frank and K everybody else usually dose as well, and thus you get a Frank and K game. Which is not a bad thing. However, it dose mean that clerics get the same toys you do and thus will STILL be better then you at the legion thing. The only way to fix that would be to limit Frank and K necromancy material only to arcane casters, but since Frank and K's stuff is all at a VERY high power level Mr. Cleric will call it unfair that only Mr.Wizard gets it and thus Frank and K will either be turned down or EVERYBODY will get access to it. If everybody has access to frank and K Mr. Cleric is still better at making a legion then poor Mr. Wizard.(Although with frank and K DNs become the absolute and total masters of legion making and go from loling at wizards and being slightly amused by clerics to loling at clerics and laughing themselves to (un)death at wizards.)

However, Frank and K would do wonders with a Death Master....Technically if it was a Frank and K game, to get what I desire all I would need to do is make a Death Master with either the Child Necromancer feat or levels in the Master of the Seven Necromantic Mysteries PrC. Both of those things allow me to learn necromancy spells from any list so the "obscure wizard and cleric exclusive spells not being on the Death Master list" issue is solved by taking a feat at first level or taking levels in a PrC that I most likely would have taken anyway.

[WarrenZig]

Deathless Master's Touch: A living for up to one size category larger then a pale master hit by the pale master's touch attack must succeed on a fortitude save or die. A slain creature automatically animates 1 round later as a zombie and is under the pale master's control as if he had animated it. Undead created using this power do NOT count against a pale master's HD total for controlling undead.

Pale master is an arcane caster class that only increases arcane caster levels so no fancy cleric stealing tricks.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Despite that power a cleric will still laugh at you. He can get a big legion with one or two spells. You have to kill things one by one. Mr. Cleric STILL beats Mr. Wizard at legion size even if Mr. Wizard takes levels in Pale Master. Oh, and there is also the fact clerics get desecrate and certain domain powers.(Though a wizard can get the domain powers through an ACF....desecrate? Not so much. Only Arcane disciple can give it to you, and even then you can only cast it once per day while Mr. Cleric who gets it on his spell list can cast it however many times he likes provided he has the spell slots..)

[TheGeckoKing]

As for expanding the Death Master's list...there's no need. You want Arcane Necromancy? Scribble it down in your spellbook? Divine? Take Arcane Disciple until the DM throws things at you.

Now, I have devised this. Check me if i'm wrong, buuuuuut.......
Wizard 9/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 10

By Lv20, as long as your a Doppleganger/Human with Able Learner, you SHOULD have 9th Divine/9th Arcane. I think. It's probably wrong, though.
However, if it's right, you've got so many spells to pick from it's hideous.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Arcane disciple dose not work how I want it. You only get Arcane Disciple spells once per day and that's all. I want to be able to cast desecrate more then once per day, thank you. As for the Death Master, his spell list is only core. He can't get his hands on many wizard and cleric exclusives such as Avasculate, General of Undeath, Black Sand ect...which is something I said I want acssess to. So to get what I want I would need to expand the death master's spell list.

However, Death Master + Frank and K gives me what I want but Frank and K is not something that most DMs like to integrate parts of into a game. It's usually a frank and K game or not a frank and K game..period. Frank and K is "too powerful" to allow parts of it into a game where not everybody can use it.

Archivist may still work, though I don't know how good an Archivist would be for a necro-based character.

[WarrenZig]

Arcane instant skele army, Skeletal Guard: 8th level spell creates 1 skeleton warrior for every caster level you have up to the max amount of undead you can control, requires no actual corpse, just 1 finger bone and a piece of onyx worth 50gp per skeleton. Casting time is 1 standard action and they gain your level -1 turn resistance.

Plague of undead can be used by arcane casters as well and it also animates an army instantly.

EDIT: Thank you, i couldn't remember where the desecration rings were.

[TheGeckoKing]

Death Master has a spellbook, just like a Wizard. You want a spell? Buy a scroll and write it down. It only works for Arcane, but still <_< >_>

Desecrate? Why waste spells when you can buy it for 24K gold? (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x)(Look at the bottom)

Also, if your desperate for spells, try the Wizzy/Ur-Priest/MT route. You'll have books thrown at you, but still

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, but it's still an army smaller then what a cleric will have. even if you make your army in cheap it will still be smaller then that of a cleric.

Also, Death Masters have a spell book but also their own spell list. Nowhere did I read that they can learn arcane spells from spell lists other then their own. If they can then I am sorry and have been mistaken but as far as I know they can only learn spells off of their own spell list meaning they won't get the nice wizard/sorc exclusives I was looking to have.

[TheGeckoKing]

Basically, it says their spellbooks work just like a Wizards, so yeah. I still think Ur-Priest/MT abuse would be cooler :smallamused:

Quothe the Compendium:


The deathmaster keeps a set of unholy tomes that record the blasphemous, arcane methods for his spells. His spellbooks function in all ways as a wizard's spellbooks, including size, capacity, and cost to add spells.

Now, go forth and scribe unholy scrolls of unholyness!

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, but it dose not say he can cast spells from the wizard/sorc list. It says he casts off his own list. If he could cast off other lists I am almost positive that that would be clearly stated since that's BIG feature of a class. Most likely the class, by RAI, was intended to only cast off his own list but due to writing/syntax errors we have what we have. RAW however dose NOT say he can cast off of other lists. It says he casts off his own list and then contradicts itself...RAW gives no strait answer which means we are forced to turn to RAI since most DM's won't go with the "It can cast from the wizard/sorc list as well" since that would make the class BETTER then a Wizard.

[WarrenZig]

ok, here is a trick to make a bigger army than a cleric that they can't do.

Spellstitch the Create Undead Warrior spell on an undead minion, BLAM once per day you can create an undead warrior that does not count against your amount of undead controlled per day, so combine that with pale master you can make 4 undead a day that are NOT limited, Clerics ARE limited in the amount of undead they can control, thus with a weeks time you could have a bigger army than a cleric and it can only get bigger.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah...but that would take MONTHS to assemble. The cleric can do it with one or two spells and some domain powers and be off conquering kingdoms while you are sitting there for weeks and weeks just waiting to be as good as the cleric is. Or did I miscalculate how big a cleric's army will be?

[TheGeckoKing]

From the SRD:

Spells: A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

By your reasoning, Wizards shouldn't be able to cast spells unless it's on the main Wis/Sorc list, when they blatently can. I'm not saying it's balanced, but like I said, Dragon Mag stuff is iffy.

Also, sure you can have a massive army via spellstitching, but i'm not sure if the OP wants to spend so long building up an army.

[WarrenZig]

Buy the Greater Desecration ring, There you go, you can control as many undead as a cleric.

Want the domain power that increases the amount of skeles you have?
I believe there is something that grants access to a domain power.

[TheGeckoKing]

Right, since the RAW is borked on Death Master, I would advise the Ur-Priest/MT build with the Greater Desecration Ring. That's so many undead I think you'll make Pelor cry.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I don't want to be totally and utterly reliant on a item to do what a cleric dose. A necromancer who needs an item to match a cleric is a lousy necromancer in my mind. Also, how the heck can a wizard learn non wizard/sorc spells. Nowhere in the class description in the SRD dose not say which could be interpreted as allowing wizards to cast from arcane lists other then their own..


"A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare."


"A wizard must study her spellbook each day to prepare her spells. She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own."

What in that can be interpenetrated to say "Wizards can learn arcane spells not on the wiz/sorc list?"

Also, Ur-Priest is very MAD. VERY MAD. My DCs will be horrid as all hell unless there is some way to make Ur-Priest casting not wisdom based. Perhaps see if I can get a houserule that allows me to take Academic Priest at levels other then first so at least my Wizard DCs to a good level?

[TheGeckoKing]

Well, you don't NEED the ring if you have levels in Ur-Priest, because it's only a 2nd level Divine Spell and an MT can get it easy. And try Cleric 1/Wizard 8 Ur Priest 1/MT10. Academic Priest ad Able Learner as feats, INT to everything, and you still get Double 9s

Like I said, Dragon Mag stuff isn't the paragon of balance.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I see. I am not sure that build works because A) Ur-Priests have to have no divine spellcasting as far as I recall and B) I am not sure Academic Priest in that build would apply to the Ur-Priest side. Most likely it would apply to the 1 level of cleric casting you had while the Ur-Priest casting remains wisdom based. However, I am not sure about this since I have never seen the actual text of feat/don't own the sourcebook from which it comes and thus have had to rely on websites, which don't give the full description, to find out what it dose.

[Sception]

Re wizard and legion of the undead - what can a cleric do that a wizard can't when it comes to having large armies of undead? The only thing they really have with that is chain controlled spawning undead, and that's cheesy beyond all practical use (ie, no DM will allow it).

Once you take that out, you've got the following undead pools:

Animate Dead: 4HD/level, x2 for rod of undead mastery, plus one level for clerics of the evil domain. But for the most part, this will be the same.

Rebuke Undead: 2HD/level, iirc? unless you're chain control spawning, not that impressive, as each individual creature can have only half your HD. Note that mystic theurge doesn't advance it anyway.

Command Undead: 2nd level wizard spell. No HD cap, just as many as you feel like casting.


Yeah, a mystic theurge gets more spells, but by mid levels a straight wizard can cast spells every round of every combat they get in, and their spells are just more powerful.


Seriously, what does mixing cleric levels in do that actually lets them control more undead?

[TheGeckoKing]

*sigh*

Is your DM generally nice? Because I refrained from advising Archivist, because it entirely depends on what your DM throws you. If you can get Necro spells, good. If not, Death Master with lots of scrolls or a very MAD Ur-Priest are all I can think of.

[Maho-Tsukai]

"Of course, Wizards are in an even worse position vis a vis the Cleric in the arena of animating corpses. While command undead is quite competitive with rebuke undead, and Animate Dead apparently works the same whether you are a Wizard or a Cleric - that's an optical illusion. Clerics get access to Animate Dead early. And they get access to Desecrate at all, which means that all their skeletons have 2 extra hit points a level that the Wizard can't match for some time (remember to construct an altar to Nerull everywhere you want to make Undead, because it doubles the Desecrate bonuses and doesn't cost anything). Finally, there are domains that give real bonuses to your necromancy that you can have if you aren't stuck shelling out for the worthless Death Domain because you are trying to get into True Necromancer (Boo!).

A real dead animating Cleric can have the Deathbound Domain, which gives her an additional 50% to the skeleton hit-die cap. That means that a Cleric's army of the dead at 5th level is bigger and better than the Wizard's army of the dead at 7th level. And using those spells didn't even take up valuable space in a spellbook or anything."- K's Revised Necromancer handbook

^ Thats a big reason why clerics are better at the legion making...HOWEVER..

I SUPPOSE, theoretically a Necromancer wizard could have an army larger then any cleric due to the fact that Clerics, while the make more undead at once, are still subject to the HD control limit and have no way to bypass this. The ONLY characters that can increase their HD control limit are Dread Necromancers. So it's really a matter of the cleric having an army equal to their control limit easily and quickly while a wizard POTENTIALLY can have an infinite size army through various PrCs and tricks though it takes FAR longer then what the cleric dose and the cleric can reach his control limit much faster and easier then a wizard can. However, I can always take undead leadership and get myself an undead cohort with cleric levels(A Vampire cleric would be interesting) or planar bind some outsider with Desecrate as a SLA to do my desecrating for me. As for the deathbound Domain power? I wizard can get that through an ACF which gives them domain powers in place of bonus feats and the same ACF can also be used to grab the evil domain power for the +1 level.

[Escheton]

Wasn't there an obscure drow female only necroprestige that requires the worship of a specific deity?
Or was that one so bad that it remained obscure for that reason?

[chaos_redefined]

It remained obscure for that reason.

[Coidzor]

Well, if you mainly use the divine casting for creating the undead, it's the CL, not the save DCs that matter. Though I can't remember how CL works for Ur-Priest anyway.

And, of course, if you go the Szass Tam route for your 2-3 elite undead made out of the more formidable of your opponents by using Animate Dread Warrior rather than making a pair of mindless bruisers or awakened bruisers or going the dragon-undead route from draconomicon, CL doesn't enter into it, though desecrate and corpse-crafter are still quite nice. Of course, that route requires 6th level wizard spells to kick off and costs XP either per casting or for spell-stitching it into yourself.

A cleric is probably best off animating 1 or 2 creatures that exceed the control limit but not the animate at one time limit, btw, Maho-Tsukai, as they automatically get control of what they animate in one casting, even if it exceeds the limit they could control as control is HD based and create is CL based and gets boosts from desecrate and the deathbound domain, IIRc.

[Sception]

errata to the death domain: it increases the HD cap per casting of animate dead to 3x caster level, rather then 2x. It does not increase the total control pool.

Now, arguably, this is even better, since more powerful individual undead tend to be more effective and enjoyable in an adventuring environment then multiple lesser undead. On the other hand, how often is the DM going to give you access to corpses of monsters with 3 times your hit dice?

But the real killer is that the desecrate spell already doubles the hit dice you can animate with a single casting to 4x your hit dice, and any more then that you can't control anyway, so the deathbound domain (while it grants access to some useful necromancy spells) really doesn't offer a cleric anything with its domain power.

And regardless, even the normal 2x hit dice max will cap you out on the biggest skeletons and zombies possible outside of dragons by level 10. Beyond that a bigger per casting limit only saves you castings, it doesn't get you stronger undead or save you money. Animate Dead is a downtime spell, so fewer castings doesn't mean anything.


Now, the cleric does have access to Animate Dead two levels early, which is a real benefit in any campaign where you have to play through from first level so that the cleric gets to actually be a necromancer two whole levels before the necromancer wizard does, but mixing classes undoes that advantage already.


While the rules are murky, the DMGII makes it pretty clear that the designers intended multiclass necromancer/clerics to have separate control pools of undead (the rules otherwise seem to imply that each casting checks your total control pool based on that casting, meaning that a MT would actually have less undead).

Mystic Theurge requires either dubious early access tricks that few or no DM's allow or requires the Ur-Priest Prc which few or no DM's allow in order to be good. If your DM allows access to MT without burning three levels of each class, sure. If your DM allows access to Ur Priest at all, sure. But otherwise, the big thing of the cleric is being able to cast in heavy armor and have decent melee stats while casting, and the mystic theurge drops those benefits. You end up trading wizard caster levels for access to generally weaker cleric spells.


If you are set on this path, check out the Illumian race, from Heroes of Destiny, if nobody's mentioned it yet. They get some class feature bonuses that encourage multiclassing, including a limited ability to burn rebuking attempts to pay the metamagic costs of arcane spells.

[faceroll]

Sylph3/LA5/sorcerer2/urpriest2/mystic theurge 8. Casts as an Ur priest 10/sorcerer 29, with a CL of 24 on the ur priest. You also get improved invis as an at will SLA. Use custom Rune Staffs, drake helms and eternal wands to round out your repertoire.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Actually, I have found a far better sollution. Remember when I said that I had bought a bunch of Necromancey themed 3rd party pdfs? Well, I decided to inspect them again to see if there was anything of help at all in them and to my suprise one of them actually had sollutions to the problems I am facing. I guess I forgot about it because it was a 3.0 book instead of a 3.5e one but 3.0 content can EASILY be intagrated into 3.5e so I don't think I should have any issues getting it approved. It fixes all the issues I am worried about, actually..

Animate Dead as a level 4 instead of a level 3: This 3rd party book has a bunch of new "necromantic" feats which give you rather powerful abilities with the hefty drawback of having to roll a "negative energy check" every time you use the feat to see if you remain normal or suffer some rather nasty drawbacks.(Though SOME of them do have benefits..as well, the "best" one being gaining a odd form of undeath.) One of these feats allows you add a spell from the death domain to your spell list(but not spells known, by RAW anyway). Therefor I could take this feat at first level and add animate dead to my spell list(Wizard/Sorc) as a third level spell, meaning I get acsses to it at the same level as a cleric. the downside however is that I have to roll a negative energy check every time I use a spell granted by this feat, though I can pick up animate dead AGAIN as a level 4 meaning I only need to roll negative energy checks while animating for 2 levels and if I happen to get Undeath as my drawback I never have to roll a negative energy check for any necromantic feat ever again.(Though Undeath is OBVIOUSLY not an easy drawback to roll.)

In addition to getting animate dead as a level 3 via a feat, this book also has many wiz/sorc exclusive spells, some of which allow some minor animating prior to even having level 3 spells meaning I can animate before even a cleric can. (Though said low level animation spells can only animate one undead at a time as appose to animate dead's limitations.)

Desecrate: It has a "death knight" template which can be added to dead Paladins I animate. This template, among other things, gives them desecrate as an SLA. Desecrate issue solved, WITHOUT using conjuration/planar binding. Also, TECHNICALLY, when combind with those low level single target animators can give me desecrate as a indirect level 1 spell(Level 1 single target animation spell used on a dead Paladin.)...though I have to check the spell again to see if it has a control pool or not.(If it dose then I can't have a death knight at level 1...) Also if I don't kill or find that many Paladins I can just planar bind something with a desecrate SLA or if I don't want to rely on conjuration get a cohort with cleric levels using undead leadership and/or leadership, as stated before.


Rebuke Undead: Another one of those Necrotic feats handles this though your rebuke is two levels less then a cleric of your character would be. However, this book has another feat that replaced rebuke better. A necrotic feat in it, while you don't get it until higher levels, allows you to animate undead simply by touch. No material components, no spell slots, nothing. In addition, the undead animated by this power have a separate control pool from your standard one...much like rebuke..and surprise surprise, it's control limit is 2HD per caster level, much like...rebuke undead. So while this power dose come much later then rebuke it is actually superior due to the fact that it's not reliant on saves and your charisma score as rebuke is, so yeah.

"Leader-esc" spells and powers: One of the other reasons clerics are often seen as better at the legion thing is the fact they have spells that better help legions of undead. Mainly inflict spells for healing, undead bolstering feats ect... This book, as well as a few others I possess, while they don't give wizards spells similar to what a cleric uses to heal their undead, do give them plenty of spells which grant their undead minions some very nice buffs, which cannot be replicated by any spell on the cleric list or divine feats. Stuff like adding vairous elemental types(and elemental attacks to go with them) to undead, granting them inititave boosts, ability score boosts, boosts to turn/rebuke resistence + to hit, ect... the list gose on and on to the point where you become as good a buffer as a cleric is to the living to the undead, and a FAR better buffer to undead then a cleric is to them. Sure, the cleric is still a better HEALER of undead then you are(sans Uttercold shenanigans.) but when your walking around with acid, cold and fire based undead that have all kinds of boost slapped on them PLUS corpsecrafter boosts AND desecrate boosts from my animated death knights or planar bound outsiders a cleric with his inflict healing and more limited undead buffing options looks rather lackuster in comparison. The only advantage he has is he can lead his undead from the front and since I want to be that gaunt "black cloak" type necromancer who uses his massive undead army to do his bidding rather then doing his bidding himself with undead legions in tow the lack of melee prowis granted by the cleric matters not to me. Oh, and if I REALLY wanted heals for my minions Lord of the Uttercold dose the job and dose it better then a cleric's inflicts. So yeah, again 3rd party comes to the rescue of the Necro wizard.

Plus, in addition to all of this said 3rd party book has plenty of other fun spells including some very unique mass animation spells. The earliest of those is a level 7 spell that allows you to animate a sunken ship complete with an undead crew to man it(Pirates of the Caribbean much?). The level 9 mass animation spells can animate a whole fleet of ships and even an entire city. These spells, however, come with the drawback of needing some VERY hard to get material components(Sunken ships and old city ruins(No..you can't kill everybody in a city and then raise it with the city animation spell...their is an age requirement for the city you can use...though you don't need full remains to animate people from it.) are not all that easy to come by now are they?) and monstrous XP costs, though the latter can be fixed in the same way Create Undead Warriors can, spellstitching. The rest of the spells are very unique as well and when combined with the spells from a few of the other necromancy related 3rd party books I have laying around I can easily equal the Cleric in necromancy as a wizard if not outright surpass him...

So, the lesson in all of this? Read and re-read sourcebooks carefully, as there may be some things you missed.(and in this case a LOT of things.)

So, yeah...I guess buying all those necromancy related 3rd party books DID help me out after all.

So yeah, a Pale Master using some of these spells and feats sounds like a fun idea and personally I don't think the 1 CL loss is all that bad. If it was more then one CL loss then yeah, but just one lost CL is really not that bad I mean people still play sorcerers, no? also the benifits are just too great for a character focused on Necromancy. However, one thing I wish the Pale Master had was the ability to eventually ignore arcane spell failure all togther in undead armor rather then reduce it. the reduction is fine and all but I really feel that the reduction should eventually "cap" with the ability to totally ignore arcane spell failure in undead armor, so I will see if I can get such a "cap" house ruled.

[Coidzor]

Actually, I have found a far better sollution. Remember when I said that I had bought a bunch of Necromancey themed 3rd party pdfs? Well, I decided to inspect them again to see if there was anything of help at all in them and to my suprise one of them actually had sollutions to the problems I am facing. I guess I forgot about it because it was a 3.0 book instead of a 3.5e one but 3.0 content can EASILY be intagrated into 3.5e so I don't think I should have any issues getting it approved. It fixes all the issues I am worried about, actually..

In addition to getting animate dead as a level 3 via a feat, this book also has many wiz/sorc exclusive spells, some of which allow some minor animating prior to even having level 3 spells meaning I can animate before even a cleric can. (Though said low level animation spells can only animate one undead at a time as appose to animate dead's limitations.)

What's the name of this book that you found these spells in? I've been considering coming up with a homebrew lesser animate (and maybe placing a HD cap on Animate Dead and instituting a Greater version) and this seems like it would either be right up my alley or at least useful food for thought in modifying my own efforts.

[Maho-Tsukai]

The book is a supplement for 3.0, not 3.5. However, due to the similarities between 3.0 and 3.5 much of the content is easily applicable in 3.5e. The spells however, are spread out over several different titles. If you want the necrotic feats, low level animation spells and mass animators but don't really need the buffs mentioned above you want to look at the book entitled Necromancy: Beyond the Grave. It's part of a larger series called "Encyclopedia Arcana" though the only one of the series I have is the Necromancy one.(Though I am looking into the Demonology/conjuration one as well...) I also forgot that the animate dead granting feat requires you be able to already cast level 3 spells so sadly your STILL behind a cleric unless you get your DM to houserule necro feats as being selectable bonus feats for a necromancy specialized wizard(which fluff wise is fine.) And even if they say no to that your only one level behind a cleric instead of two which is not nearly as bad as 2 levels behind.

If you want those nice buffs I mentioned then then look into "The Dread Codex" and "The Dread Codex 2" in addition to Beyond the Grave. Both of them feature some nice spells, especially the first one, and both of them also have some fun undead monsters and such.

[dextercorvia]

I know you aren't crazy about pure cleric, but you can give the cleric quite a bit of arcane flavor and versatility. The Divine Magician ACF from CM will give you some of that Wizardly versatility. And, as an evil cleric, spontaneous harms are kind of lame, so trade that out for the Spontaneous Domain ACF. You can go with the Spell, Time, or Travel domains for some usual wizardly utility. There is no need to necro up your domains, all of the good necro stuff is already on the cleric list.

At early levels you can get your horde by DMM Fell Animating commoners.

[Maho-Tsukai]

It's not the flavor of the cleric I dislike. I love evil cults and death priests just as much as any fan of necromancy. It's the fact that clerics use WIS as their casting stat that turns me away RP wise. I prefer high int and high cha to high wis for RP so if a cleric had a way to say, cast of of charisma(or int) instead of wisdom I would be fine playing a cleric as oppose to a wizard. Simply put, it's not the fluff but the casting stat that turns me away from clerics and if they had a different casting stat I would not have any of these issues.

Oh, and I already know about the academic/dynamic priest feats but even with those feats your DCs are going to still be Wis based and while a buff-centric cleric can get away with lower DCs, a Necromancer cleric cannot since many of his best offensive spells like say, destruction, require saves.

[dextercorvia]

Alright, I have to admit, I'm a bit of a fanboy for batman clerics, but check out the following:

Int is good for: Wizard spells,Skill points

Wis is good for:Cleric spells, Will saves

Wizard with 18 Int gets (2+4)x4 = 24 skill points at first level. Wisdom is usually a dump stat for Wizards but I'll be generous and give a 14 for +2 will saves.

Cloistered Cleric with 14 Int and 18 Wisdom gets (6+2)x4 = 32 skill points at first level and +4 to will saves. Unlike a Wizard a cloistered cleric will benefit from an above average Intelligence score -- (Knowledge devotion, skillmonkeyery, etc.)

Even an Int of 12 will let you roleplay an above average intelligence (which is the best most of us can manage anyway).

Cloistered Cleric also gets +1hp/level, cast in light armor, no rest for preparation, rebuke undead.

Clerics can also qualify for Versatile Spellcaster from level 1 without giving up an extra feat. It always costs a wizard two feats to get that tasty versatility.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I guess, but technically I don't even need to take cleric levels at all to get cleric spells. Rainbow Servant has an adaptation clause stating that it can be refluffed as evil. While some people don't see adaptation clauses as actual rules I have seen lots of people say that they in fact, are. So while there may be some argument over that if I have a DM who's pro adaptation clauses being legal rules then evil rainbow servant gets me everything I want....sure, it's a long wait and I lose a lot of caster levels from it but it gives me the WHOLE cleric list and as wizard I can just stock up on cleric scrolls and be a mystic theurge without actually taking levels in MT.(Though I still lose caster levels...) It's not the wait that bothers me with wizard necromancy but rather the lack of desecrate and other key spells.

However, as sollutions I have mentioned 3rd party, which, while not wizard's material dose wonders for the necro wizard. Also, by RAW, a Death Master can learn spells from the sorc/wiz list as well as his own provided he can get his hands on the spellbook of a wizard whom has the spells he wants. Death Masters get Desecrate, Inflicts, Rebuke and Animate Dead as a LEVEL 2 spell, allowing them to do the whole necromancy thing before even a cleric can....and in addition get some of the best spells in core and, like a cloistered cleric, gets the ability to cast in light armor.

[Grendus]

Technically, a Wizard can have unlimited undead under their control, if they take the Pale Master PrC. At high levels, one of the touch attacks you get allows you to create undead that don't count towards your control pool. Of course, that requires that you actually walk up to someone and touch attack them, but you can do things like coup de gracing enemies at negative hit points for completely free zombies.

Pale Masters make AWESOME BBEG's.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, and there is also spellstitching Create Undead Warriors. However, both Pale Master and Create Undead Warriors Spellstithcing take a VERY VERY VERY VERY long time though if you combine the two you POTENTIALLY can have an army larger then the cleric since, baring fell animate, the cleric has no way of surpassing the limits of his two control pools while you do. However, the cleric, while he can't surpass his control limit (again, without fell animate shenanigans) can reach his control limit FAR easier and FAR faster then you so it comes down whether you want your control limit(s) in undead now or an infinite size army WAY later. If you don't mind waiting a few YEARS you can have a large army. However the cleric will still be commanding more then you will most of the time unless you spellstitch Create Undead Warriors on a crapload of undead...which is REALLY expensive to do. Either that or find a way to get Create Undead Warriors as a SLA so it costs no XP. Perhaps Archmage?

[AyeGill]

I would generally advise against a dual-side caster for necromancy, or for anything really. Sure you get lots of spells, but you're late for 9th spell level unless you use stuff like Ur-priest, and that's a huge downer. If you absolutely need dual-casting, i'd say either dread necromancer 8/Ur-priest 2/MT 10, or the Slightly more complicated Wizard 4/Bard 1/Urpriest 1/MT 4/Sublime Chord 4/MT 5/XXX 1. the first one is a giant ball of sticky undead awesome, the second one having more caster level focused spellcasting stuff with undead legions as support armies.

They both get 9th/9th level spells.

[Escheton]

Technically, a Wizard can have unlimited undead under their control, if they take the Pale Master PrC. At high levels, one of the touch attacks you get allows you to create undead that don't count towards your control pool. Of course, that requires that you actually walk up to someone and touch attack them, but you can do things like coup de gracing enemies at negative hit points for completely free zombies.

Pale Masters make AWESOME BBEG's.


Combine that with improved unarmed strike and you punch people so hard they spontaneously turn zombie in your service.

[AyeGill]

Combine that with improved unarmed strike and you punch people so hard they spontaneously turn zombie in your service.

Gah, now you've forced me to make a build that does that! What have you done!?

[Escheton]

Gah, now you've forced me to make a build that does that! What have you done!?

Works best in gestalt. My current char does that. Well, he will when he hits Pale Master 10.

[monkey3]

Yeah, and there is also spellstitching Create Undead Warriors. However, both Pale Master and Create Undead Warriors Spellstithcing take a VERY VERY VERY VERY long time though if you combine the two you POTENTIALLY can have an army larger then the cleric since, baring fell animate, the cleric has no way of surpassing the limits of his two control pools while you do. ...

Just how much bigger is the Cleric's army anyway? Are they getting 20, 40 extra hit dice? If you are assuming that the Palemaster is creating 1st level skeletons, then this would take 20-40 days. If the Palemaster (and Cleric) are creating 10+ HD skeletons from giants, then the Palemaster will surpass the clerics army in less than a week (sense the limit is in the number of undead, not HD of the undead), and keep going it with no end in sight.

I'd argue that you never want to create 1st level skeleton warriors, as they are all but pointless.

Not to derail, but is there any reason no one has mentioned the much larger undead army of the Dread Necromancer? Not only the the HD limit MUCH higher, but at 20th level, the DN turns into a Lich and gets the spell-stitched shenanigans that come with being undead.

[kme]

Maho-Tsukai I think you missed one thing that Malisteen pointed out earlier. Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandundead.htm) is a second level spell with a duration of one day per level and it also has a feature of not allowing saves to any non intelligent undead. Once you add extend spell and chain spell you can have a very big amount of high hit dice undead under your control. Since it doesn't allow saves you can also cast it from wands or scrolls that are fairly cheap for second level spells.


Another thing that many overlook and it can add a lot of fun to playing a necromancer is the fact that you don't need to control(as in magically) your undead minions to make them your servants. Many types of undead are intelligent and can be manipulated/intimidated/forced/bribed into service. What is a ghoul to a level 10 character? Only a bug to stomp really. You can also have undead lieutenants or cleric/wizard cohorts who could keep those lesser undead under control. If some kind of crisis happens you can still rely on spells like command undead, control undead or you ca just destroy the rebels. It would be an awesome thing to happen in a campaign.

Of course, all necromancers who wish to have an undead army by whatever means will share a similar problem. They require a lot of cooperation and understanding from both DM and the players.