Rules for Pregnancy (3.5/PF)

[molten_dragon]

Okay, this is a weird one.

I'm running a group through the Pathfinder Kingmaker adventure path. One of the key features of it is that the PCs become the rulers of their own kingdom.

My wife is playing a female gnome sorcerer. She is the Queen of the kingdom, due to her high Charisma score. One of the kingdom building rules states that the king/queen can get married and the kingdom gets extra benefits from it.

My wife has decided that she would like to have her character get married in the game.

Awhile back, the party had a random encounter with a female adult silver dragon. They were polite, and chatted with the dragon for awhile. They got a bit of advice, and ended up inviting the dragon to come visit them back at their town if she ever got lonely living alone up in the mountains.

Recently, I decided to have the dragon take them up on the offer. She visited the town, and was impressed with the way they ran it.

That's when it got weird. My wife decided that she wanted the (female) dragon for her spouse and co-ruler in-game, and began trying to seduce her. The party was having fun with it and seemed to enjoy the idea, so I said what the hell, and went with it, based on the justification that a dragon with the innate ability to change shape and gender wouldn't have typical human(oid) views on sex and love. I had her roll a series of diplomacy checks over a few months to determine the results of her seduction. She had a series of great rolls, and was successful.

So now my wife's gnome sorcerer is married to a female adult silver dragon. After another few months went by, she brought up the idea of having an heir (the dragon has her innate change shape ability, and my wife's character has draconic polymorph, so it's a possibility). Again, she rolled diplomacy and was successful, so now I'm left with how to adjudicate their screwed up same-sex conception and pregnancy. Anyone got any suggestions on how to find rules for this?

[senrath]

I'm pretty sure the (3rd party) Book of Erotic Fantasy has rules for pregnancy. Not sure how good they are, though, as I've never read the book myself.

[Fouredged Sword]

Dragons are known to be able to knock up or be knocked up by anything, but yes, BoEF is your go to book for all prengancy and strange sexual questions. I have no doubt they have rules for polymorph and pregnancy.

[fireinakasha]

I'm pretty sure the (3rd party) Book of Erotic Fantasy has rules for pregnancy.

On page 47.

...don't look at me like that. How can you not own this book? It is so crazy.

Also, on page 50 there is a handy little chart that codifies crossbreeding potential, and as luck would have it, dragons can crossbreed with everything. Apparently a perk of the species, exclusive to only them and dryads.

Word of advice, though; since you seem uncomfortable with your wife's choice of roleplay in this relationship, you will probably want to prevent her from ever discovering the existence of the Book of Erotic Fantasy, lest you have to adjudicate her character's "performance" checks...

[Aron Times]

On page 47.

...don't look at me like that. How can you not own this book? It is so crazy.

Also, on page 50 there is a handy little chart that codifies crossbreeding potential, and as luck would have it, dragons can crossbreed with everything. Apparently a perk of the species, exclusive to only them and dryads.

Word of advice, though; since you seem uncomfortable with your wife's choice of roleplay in this relationship, you will probably want to prevent her from ever discovering the existence of the Book of Erotic Fantasy, lest you have to adjudicate her character's "performance" checks...
*Looks at fireinakasha like that*

[molten_dragon]

Word of advice, though; since you seem uncomfortable with your wife's choice of roleplay in this relationship, you will probably want to prevent her from ever discovering the existence of the Book of Erotic Fantasy, lest you have to adjudicate her character's "performance" checks...

Nah, I'm not uncomfortable with it at all. I got a huge kick out of it actually. It just surprised me, since our games don't normally lead to sex and/or romance, but the party all seemed to be having fun with it.

[Khatoblepas]

I checked the BoEF, and the rules for being pregnant are surprisingly sparse. Not the monstrosity you'd think you'd have, just movement penalties for the first trimester, movement and dex penalties for the second, and movement, dex and str penalties for the third.

There aren't any rules, by the looks of it, of the dangers of pregnancy, so the few penalties they give are probably enough. Though, since it's a freakin dragon, you should probably lessen the penalties, maybe give her some way of protecting herself (like Dex -2, but Natural Armor +1 as her skin becomes shimmery and silver) since she shouldn't be adventuring with child normally.

But hey, "I got a dragon in my belly and I'm not gonna let him down!".

Depending on whether you want to emphasise badass mother or body horror, you could do a lot of things with it.

[molten_dragon]

I checked the BoEF, and the rules for being pregnant are surprisingly sparse. Not the monstrosity you'd think you'd have, just movement penalties for the first trimester, movement and dex penalties for the second, and movement, dex and str penalties for the third.

There aren't any rules, by the looks of it, of the dangers of pregnancy, so the few penalties they give are probably enough. Though, since it's a freakin dragon, you should probably lessen the penalties, maybe give her some way of protecting herself (like Dex -2, but Natural Armor +1 as her skin becomes shimmery and silver) since she shouldn't be adventuring with child normally.

But hey, "I got a dragon in my belly and I'm not gonna let him down!".

Depending on whether you want to emphasise badass mother or body horror, you could do a lot of things with it.

Well, the other thing is, they haven't even decided which one of them is going to be carrying the child. It might be the dragon.

[fireinakasha]

But hey, "I got a dragon in my belly and I'm not gonna let him down!".


Technically, a half-dragon. As per the rules of crossbreeding in BoEF, which we are apparently treating as the final word on the mechanics of pregnancy... :smallbiggrin:

[Fouredged Sword]

Not so much the last word, just the words that are not so squicky that it makes us queasy. Really the book isn't so bad squick wise. Balance is another issue, but they deal with the sex part rather tasefuly.

[fireinakasha]

You might also find it useful to know that when mating with a dragon, there is an 80% chance of conception (a gnome's is 15% and you use the higher value), and a gnome's gestation period is 13 months. The dragon's gestation period is marked as "varied" with no real explanation.

[arguskos]

You might also find it useful to know that when mating with a dragon, there is an 80% chance of conception (a gnome's is 15% and you use the higher value), and a gnome's gestation period is 13 months. The dragon's gestation period is marked as "varied" with no real explanation.
That's actually thanks to the draconic egg guidelines in the Draconomicon. I seem to recall information about draconic egg times and needed environments in said book. Check it out, OP. :smallwink:

[Halae]

You know, this gives me an idea for a character. A prince half-silver dragon gnome, bane of kobolds everywhere, and who doesn't want to introduce his parents to his friends

That said, this is actually a really cool concept. Strange, but interesting. (I haven't played or read through kingmaker, so ignore this if it doesn't apply) Keep in mind that some nobility might be resentful of the fact that there's a dragon going to be in the royal family, and that can open up a lot of possibilities

[Magic Myrmidon]

I'm not sure how important the passage of time is in your campaign, but you could always consider a fast-forward in time until the pregnancy is done. You could give everyone a chance to say what they do in the intervening time, maybe give some XP or items or gold depending on what they do.

If you want to avoid that problem altogether.

[Morithias]

Not so much the last word, just the words that are not so squicky that it makes us queasy. Really the book isn't so bad squick wise. Balance is another issue, but they deal with the sex part rather tasefuly.

Total agreement. Say what you will about it being Dumb and "immature" to print a gaming book with rules about sex but it handled with it with as much grace and charm as WOTC handles many of their books (In some cases I'd actually argue this book was handled BETTER looking at you "Book of Not-Poison").

BOEF for all it's worth, is proof to me that the gaming world, can on occasion handle sex, and by extension other tough and mature subjects with more intelligence than many give us credit for.

[Winter_Wolf]

Well, the other thing is, they haven't even decided which one of them is going to be carrying the child. It might be the dragon.

:confused: Say what now? How would that even work? Actually, you know what, I'd rather not know details.

Damn dragon fertility is a messy affair.

[Gavinfoxx]

Hey... so they use polymorph and draconic polymorph and shapechange and such to *get each other pregnant*??

That is SOOO awesome and crazy!!

[Coidzor]

BoEF, Nymphology, Bastards and Bloodlines, pick one. Have the strong stomach of a dwarf. Or read through all of 'em and have the stomach of Fistbeard Beardfist.

fireinakasha Well, the creature's type does change to Dragon when the template gets applied, so...

[Marnath]

Total agreement. Say what you will about it being Dumb and "immature" to print a gaming book with rules about sex but it handled with it with as much grace and charm as WOTC handles many of their books (In some cases I'd actually argue this book was handled BETTER looking at you "Book of Not-Poison").

BOEF for all it's worth, is proof to me that the gaming world, can on occasion handle sex, and by extension other tough and mature subjects with more intelligence than many give us credit for.

From what I heard actually, WOTC revoked BoEF's status as an official book. So I think technically it counts more as homebrew than third party.

[senrath]

From what I heard actually, WOTC revoked BoEF's status as an official book. So I think technically it counts more as homebrew than third party.

Um, the term "third-party" has nothing to do with whether or not WotC approves of the product or not.

[Morithias]

From what I heard actually, WOTC revoked BoEF's status as an official book. So I think technically it counts more as homebrew than third party.

Oh I don't care who wrote it. As far as I'm concerned a book/movie/tv show whatever, should succeed or fail on it's own merits. If something like this sucks on many levels there has to be multiple people contributing.

In short WOTC revoking it as an official book in my opinion is stupid, because now in my opinion I can say there are 3rd party/homebrew books out there I consider better than some of WOTC's work.

[Admiral Squish]

You know, this gives me an idea for a character. A prince half-silver dragon gnome, bane of kobolds everywhere, and who doesn't want to introduce his parents to his friends

Oh god, even better. Take dragon cohort. Now your dragon parent is not only embarrassing, but overprotective and follows you everywhere. I could totally see a silver dragon following behind the party. 'you know, those trail rations are going to go straight to your hips' 'Honey, put on your cloak, you'll catch a cold' 'You know that prince was awfully cute. Maybe you should think about settling down? I want like some grandkids before I'm a great wyrm, you know.'

[Acanous]

XD
Well, the Dragon Cohort won't net you an adult silver for a very long time. It COULD, however, be your character's sibling.
Possibly cousin or something.

We're also doing Kingmaker, my char is a Tiefling Wizard. Our DM is roleplaying the queen (Who does not go out on adventures) and our cavalier is the "King". Recently I've been having thoughts on how to assassinate certain party members and have the place turn into a magocracy >.>

(DM ruled I can't research any spells until we have a mage tower, and I keep getting outvoted during kingdom phase. I have less spells known than a sorceror of same level. That's not cool, man)

[Coidzor]

Though, since it's a freakin dragon, you should probably lessen the penalties, maybe give her some way of protecting herself (like Dex -2, but Natural Armor +1 as her skin becomes shimmery and silver) since she shouldn't be adventuring with child normally.

Well, the dragon would be laying an egg, or eggs, if they decided to go that particular route. Otherwise it'd be much like any other humanoid pregnancy, so no real need to homebrew anything up in regards to that.

Draconic polymorph as a sex-changing spell, probably works, otherwise you couldn't turn into single-sex races of the opposite sex with the other polymorph spells.

Now, how it works, I believe BOEF actually had a bit about conception while under the influence of shape-changing magic, as well as the influence of shape-changing on an existing pregnancy, which would shed some light as to whether it'd take the gnome half out of the equation to turn into a male dragon and knock up the silver. Or if you'd end up with a silver dragon with some gnomish traits rather than a half-dragon gnome, a half-gnome dragon...

[WitchSlayer]

This sounds more like FATAL than BOEF

[Coidzor]

This sounds more like FATAL than BOEF

Nah, don't need to do calculations to see if the apparatuses are of compatible radii after all. :smallwink:

[Acanous]

they should propably figure out which one is pregnant, first. Dragon pregnancies are loooong. Human ones are much shorter.

[molten_dragon]

:confused: Say what now? How would that even work? Actually, you know what, I'd rather not know details.

Damn dragon fertility is a messy affair.

The gnome has draconic polymorph, which I presume allows her to change gender if she wants. In BoEF, there's a spell which specifically changes your gender, and mentions that a gender-changed person's bits work normally.

So with the help of magic, either could impregnate the other.

As far as the time goes, it's not a big issue. The campaign is long and relatively slow-paced. It often takes over a year of in-game time for them to get 2-3 levels, and they frequently will take a year or so off to build up their kingdom more. So we could simply say the pregnancy happens in the off time if we wanted.

[Ravens_cry]

Hmmm. You could do this as downtime, so mechanically it's basically a cutscene. If the gnome sorceress goes out adventuring during this time maybe a -1 on certain rolls after a 4-5 months along, -2 during months 5-7 and -3 8-9. Not accumulative. An idea anyway. This is assuming gnome pregnancies are as long as humans. They could be longer, they live longer after all, or they could be shorter, gnomes are much smaller. I'd go for shorter personally. I don't think the child needs to count as a separate target for magical purposes, too fiddly.
Delivery could be a series of Heal checks, with a little healing magic in the case of complications.
And hey congratulations, I think you all are handling this very maturely. It's nice to know the forum can handle this kind of topic so well.

[Fouredged Sword]

You totaly need a stupid villian to try to kidnap the queen's wife without figgureing out she is a dragon. It would be awsome. Even more awsome if the villian is a knight.

A princes must save the dragon from a fierce knight!

[Ravens_cry]

You totaly need a stupid villian to try to kidnap the queen's wife without figgureing out she is a dragon. It would be awsome. Even more awsome if the villian is a knight.

A princes must save the dragon from a fierce knight!
Yes, but unless the Dragon Queen has the Idiot Ball, why doesn't she, well, take him out herself? I didn't know the Standard Female Grab Area worked on Dragons.

[olelia]

You totaly need a stupid villian to try to kidnap the queen's wife without figgureing out she is a dragon. It would be awsome. Even more awsome if the villian is a knight.

A princes must save the dragon from a fierce knight!

My, what big teeth you have princess...

[Eldan]

It works on all females. Fun fact: even if they don't have arms.

Anyway, I'd recommend making the dragon the pregnant one here. Unless the game can afford it, it saves you on downtime in which the gnome character can't do much adventuring. Also, have the dragon lay eggs: she can get servants to care for them, so even the dragon isn't really tied up until she wants to.

[Saintheart]

Why should the female be the one who has to avoid getting heavily injured? A damned hatchling's a viable threat, it might be the damn foetus is so heavily armoured it's practically impossible to hurt it in utero.

But ten out of ten for roleplaying opportunities like this. God bless more women in RPing! (Meant in the nicest possible way, I should add.) :smallcool:

[Person_Man]

I personally would never saddle my child with such a horrible template. Couldn't she find a nice Fey or Golem to marry?

[Parra]

I think the infant when "born", after the Gnomes ~13 month gestation that someone mentioned earlier, should naturally be an Egg, which then needs similar conditions as outlined in the Draconomicon to hatch when mature enough (after however long dragon eggs need) to hatch.

Gives plenty of opportunity of Egg-napping by nefarious sorts, or various other eggciting adventure possibilites

[Gavinfoxx]

Gives plenty of opportunity of Egg-napping by nefarious sorts, or various other eggciting adventure possibilites

*Groans*

Ughhh... hey DM, are you going to make both pregnant? That'd be awesome...

[molten_dragon]

*Groans*

Ughhh... hey DM, are you going to make both pregnant? That'd be awesome...

I'm not going to make them do anything. If my wife wants them to both be pregnant at the same time (maybe to get the heir and the spare out of the way all at once) then that's her decision, but I have no issues with it.

If it is the dragon that ends up being pregnant and lays an egg or eggs, I'll definitely have someone try to steal them. Should be lots of fun.

[Coidzor]

^: Heh, imagine if they just stole the eggs looking to get dragon mounts. Even if they managed to keep hold of them long enough to hatch 'em, they'd lose because they spent all of that time and instead just ended up with a bunch of half-dragon gnomes.


I think the infant when "born", after the Gnomes ~13 month gestation that someone mentioned earlier, should naturally be an Egg, which then needs similar conditions as outlined in the Draconomicon to hatch when mature enough (after however long dragon eggs need) to hatch.

Well, that's some "The Fly," squick right there. :smallyuk:

[Maho-Tsukai]

This thread reminded me of my girlfriend. She's a LONG time D&D player(has played longer then me, actually.) but ONLY plays AD&D 1e. I tried and tried to get her to play 3.5e but to no avail. The BoEF changed that and was the motivation for her to learn 3.5e because, lets face it, where in love and both of us can be big perverts at times(All I got to say is that I once ran a freeform Hentai forum RP...for several years....yeah..) so frankly playing a D&D campaigh using the BoEF is something both of us would be into. However, we houserule some changes to the BoEF and also we plan on useing some homebrew spells...ok...a lot of homebrew spells, which where originally homebrew spells for 1e/2e that I ported to 3.5e. All I got to say is they make for some fun times. Also there is another 3rd party book known as "unorthidox wizards" which has a wizard vairent known as the "necropimp." It allows you to turn undead into hot chicks that people don't realize are undead until it's too late and even gives you a negative energy pimp slap..yes..a negative energy pimp slap...the ridicilousness of that is just too epic to pass up.(That same pdf has a "red mage" class which is focused on the color red. I once homebrewed the class to be based on the color blue instead of the color red and used it to play a Happy Happiest complete with the blue KKK-esc robes they wear....but then again I have used earthbound a lot in D&D....I had lots of evil fun with my cleric of Giygas and I even attempted to make Giegue(Giygas before he lost his mind.) as a PC.)

As for pregnancy, BoEF is good enough. Yeah, it's pregnency rules may not be all that realistic but when your can tear apart reality and laugh at the laws of physicis by waving your hands around and muttering some jibberish while your friend who can bench press a skyscraper is holding off an army of half-dragon undead lychanthropes do you honestly care about realism? In my mind the BoEF's rules are perfectly fine for handeleing pregnency in D&D since D&D is not that realistic to begain with. In all honesty if you want gritty realism you should be playing GURPS or shadowrun.

As for who gets to carry the baby? That should be up to the one who got down and dirty with the dragon. If they want to carry the baby for RP reasons, let them. If they don't care either way either have the dragon carry the baby or let the DM decide. If they don't want to carry it then let the dragon carry it. It should be based on what the person wants to RP, not how pratical or realistic it would be. D&D 3.5e is a high magic game about very powerful individuals. If somebody wants to play a pregnent character who can still kick *** then they should be able to do that since 3.5 is already unrealistic and grand in scale as is.

[fireinakasha]

@Maho-Tsukai You and your GF might be interested in an obscure splat book called Nymphology (to google with you!). It's kind of a more ridiculous BoEF. Among its many graces are prestige classes for things like conjuration-specialist mage pimps and divination-specialist mage pervs.

@Coidzor I am thinking of a Baldur's Gate II Drow city-esque situation.
BBEG: "Oh Great Daemon of the Nine Hells, grant me your power in battle in exchange for these valuable eggs I have stolen from the mightiest of dragons!"
Demon: "....this is a joke, right?"

[Gavinfoxx]

snip

you were swordsage'd...

Anyway, are there any more books in the theme of BoEF, Nymphology, and Bastards and Bloodlines, other than just those three?

[Stanlee]

Is there a roll in there to see if she will have twins, triplets, or maybe even octobabies? I don't know, do dragons usually only have one child at a time or do they lay several eggs?

[randomhero00]

There really shouldn't be any rules for pregnancy...just roleplay it. See if the player is interested in having kids first. Then roll a %, probably 10% chance.

Edit: this brings up an amusing story though in one of my games. A player first slept (he had a really good looking character and it was part of his RP) with nearly all the good looking females in the town. He then went to the alchemist shop and stole/switched the birth control medicine to something harmless :D it was so funny. So he's going to have at least 3 kids in that town named after him.

[WitchSlayer]

I still say this is an appropriate situation in which you would have to roll the circumference of various things.

[Halae]

I still say this is an appropriate situation in which you would have to roll the circumference of various things.

Not with Polymorph!

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/pyranack/awesome-1.png