Low LA races that make me wanna shout

[Morithias]

Hello everyone.

Been looking at the nice little class "Siren" in Savage Species. 3.0/3.5 of course. But getting into the class without brutal LA has been trouble.

The lowest I have found is the 'petal' but I'm looking for something a little more....human-like.

The campaign is starting at level 3, so if possible try to keep the LA low.

Thanks a lot playground. The Music Meister will thank you.

Edit: Come to think of it, might be a good idea to state what I need.

The race needs an "innate sonic mind affecting ability". So I guess a special attack or spell-like with those last two tags.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't have a copy of SS anymore, but unless the PrC actually says that your sonic, mind-affecting ability has to be racially granted, it doesn't. There're several ways to get sonic, mind-affecting abilities really easily. I think there's a warlock invocation with both of those tags at a fairly low level. The feat Dark Speech does it, if you don't mind being evil.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Warlocks can get an at-will Shatter that is sonic, although it isn't mind-affecting.

Bards get sonic mind-affecting all over the place, including their Bardic Music, but if it has to be racially granted, that's not going to work.

I think Pixies might qualify, but they are a +4LA, so that might be too much

[arguskos]

I don't have a copy of SS anymore, but unless the PrC actually says that your sonic, mind-affecting ability has to be racially granted, it doesn't. There're several ways to get sonic, mind-affecting abilities really easily. I think there's a warlock invocation with both of those tags at a fairly low level. The feat Dark Speech does it, if you don't mind being evil.
Says "innate" which is as good as "racial".

[Marnath]

Says "innate" which is as good as "racial".

I don't know, a warlock's power could be said to be "innate" since it is a part of him.

[Kaww]

Warlocks can get an at-will Shatter that is sonic, although it isn't mind-affecting.

Bards get sonic mind-affecting all over the place, including their Bardic Music, but if it has to be racially granted, that's not going to work.

I think Pixies might qualify, but they are a +4LA, so that might be too much

How exactly can a LA 4 pixie qualify, or a LA 6 for that matter?

Most SS classes are difficult to get into, because they are overpowered or on the verge of being op * cough Illithid Savant cough*...

[Morithias]

How exactly can a LA 4 pixie qualify, or a LA 6 for that matter?

Most SS classes are difficult to get into, because they are overpowered or on the verge of being op * cough Illithid Savant cough*...

Well I mostly just want to use it as an excuse to play a version of the Music Meister.

Hmmm. Dark Speech, not bad idea, (ironically neither it or the words of creation feats actually require you to be aligned).

I'll have to check with the DM, there are MANY definition of 'innate' on google, form 'natural' as in 'naturally talented' to 'unconditioned' like 'unconditioned reflex' which basically means you're born with it.

[arguskos]

I don't know, a warlock's power could be said to be "innate" since it is a part of him.
Based on the book in question, and other uses of innate in 3.5 as nigh-synonymous with racial, I'm betting that the intent is clear: Siren wants a racially granted power.

Further, if you want to bring up that specific example, what you mentioned is a fluff concern. Fluff=/=mechanics, by definition, and so can't be counted on. By that definition, a Wizard can enter Siren by taking Shatter, something that I doubt anyone is willing to argue.

[Morithias]

Based on the book in question, and other uses of innate in 3.5 as nigh-synonymous with racial, I'm betting that the intent is clear: Siren wants a racially granted power.

Further, if you want to bring up that specific example, what you mentioned is a fluff concern. Fluff=/=mechanics, by definition, and so can't be counted on. By that definition, a Wizard can enter Siren by taking Shatter, something that I doubt anyone is willing to argue.

To be fair considering some of the stuff I've seen with Wizards, I think takes 10 levels in a class that gives no bonuses to caster levels or spells, would be a step down in almost every case.

[arguskos]

To be fair considering some of the stuff I've seen with Wizards, I think takes 10 levels in a class that gives no bonuses to caster levels or spells, would be a step down in almost every case.
The point was more that saying "oh, well, it's his inner power" is a TERRIBLE way to justify qualification for Siren, and could be expanded to nearly anything willy nilly (Barbarian can qualify, due to Intimidating Rage; see the issue?).

Also, meh. Wiz10 can still roflcrush half of everything around, sad as that is.

[Morithias]

The point was more that saying "oh, well, it's his inner power" is a TERRIBLE way to justify qualification for Siren, and could be expanded to nearly anything willy nilly (Barbarian can qualify, due to Intimidating Rage; see the issue?).

Also, meh. Wiz10 can still roflcrush half of everything around, sad as that is.

I agree with you. Sorry I meant that post more in a jesting way.

Damn, I've finally found a problem this forum cannot solve. This is crazy! This forum has been able to answer just about everything I've asked, almost instantly, and given the amount of posts I'm sure we've seen just about everything too.

I'm half-tempted to just play pun-pun and manipulate my character to what I need, but that would be cheating, and probably get my head caved in with a metal pole. XD

[Psyren]

Maenads are LA 0 and get a sonic scream... but that's only "mind-affecting" in the sense that you can burst someone's capillaries with it.

[Morithias]

Maenads are LA 0 and get a sonic scream... but that's only "mind-affecting" in the sense that you can burst someone's capillaries with it.

I'm sure I can work that somehow with feats in dragon or something. Takes for the tip, now I just need to jury-rig this together somehow. Great first step. Keep me posted if you find anything else.

Edit: Correction.

Maybe not. "Energy ray" isn't exactly easy to make mind-affecting via templates. Damn, so close. Thanks very much though. I might just have to buy a pizza, if you know what I mean.

[Escheton]

Maybe not. "Energy ray" isn't exactly easy to make mind-affecting via templates. Damn, so close. Thanks very much though. I might just have to buy a pizza, if you know what I mean.

Bribe the DM: go up a level

[Morithias]

Bribe the DM: go up a level

More like "bribe the DM: use dark speech as a racial ability" XD But that works too. Although i'm going to have to be careful when singing all my lines.

[Escheton]

It was a reference to a cardgame. Munchkin to be precise.

Why don't you take the harpy as base creature?
It's what the class seems to be made for anyways.
It's only 7 Racial HD and 3LA and has some pretty neat stuff.

[HunterOfJello]

The Nycter from MM3 has 3 racial hit die, +2 LA and a sonic mind-affecting ability. They're tiny bat people that live in caves.

~

Also, the Half-Fey template gives spell-like abilities based on HD progression. Once you gain your 3rd HD you can gain Enthrall 1/day which is a Sonic, Mind-Effecting ability. LA is +2 and you're born as a half-fey, which should make the ability innate.

[Coidzor]

So it seems the best options so far allow for an ECL 7 entry with the LA+2 races/templates, providing LA buyoff is in effect, and ECL 8 without LA buyoff.

Half-Fey is awesome anyway though.

So that's 1-2 levels later than the skill pre-requisites alone, and 3-4 levels earlier than entering it as a harpy.

[Darrin]

Hmm. Vril (Drow of the Underdark) have a Shriek attack that is sonic, and at BAB +3 they can take a racial feat to give it a Fort save vs. daze... but it isn't identified as a mind-affecting ability anywhere.

Faun (Deities & Demigods) gets some abilities for using magic items that have sonic-based mind-affecting effects, but I don't think that counts.

Hellbred + Dark Speech might count as racial/innate.

Other than that, Half-fey template is probably the way to go.

[Akal Saris]

Ghost is LA +4 and has Moan, a pretty good sonic, mind-affecting attack. Some people would argue you don't need to take all of the template progression levels, meaning it would be only LA +2.

Half-fey really does look like the way to go though.

[Endarire]

Ask your DM.

[Morithias]

Ghost is LA +4 and has Moan, a pretty good sonic, mind-affecting attack. Some people would argue you don't need to take all of the template progression levels, meaning it would be only LA +2.

Half-fey really does look like the way to go though.

Isn't ghost LA +5?

Ultimately I have decided to use the half-fey template. Thank you for all your help people. Here's basically the build.

Human Unseelie Half-fey

Monk 2, Bard 1 Siren 10, Bard 7

(The monk is for eventually taking the ascetic mage feat, bard level 1 is so I can take the "Subsonics" feat. Which allows me to do the Meister's act of "Saying whatever the hell I want to use my power.")

Not the most powerful build, but I believe is worthwhile for this campaign and will be quite enjoyable.

And The DM did approve the build.

Thank you for all the help people. :)

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Well I mostly just want to use it as an excuse to play a version of the Music Meister.

Hmmm. Dark Speech, not bad idea, (ironically neither it or the words of creation feats actually require you to be aligned).

I'll have to check with the DM, there are MANY definition of 'innate' on google, form 'natural' as in 'naturally talented' to 'unconditioned' like 'unconditioned reflex' which basically means you're born with it.

I dunno about Dark Speech, but Words of Creation requires you to be both Good Aligned and Exalted, as do all Exalted Feats.

[Morithias]

I dunno about Dark Speech, but Words of Creation requires you to be both Good Aligned and Exalted, as do all Exalted Feats.

I must've missed that in the side bars. On their feat charts and descriptions both feats have the requirements of "Int 15 Cha 15 Base Will +5"

Simple enough mistake to make.

Damn that would've been a nice character concept too, a person with both words of creation and dark speech, a master of the universe. I HAVE THE POWER!!! (sorry couldn't resist heh heh).