How many spells should a wizard have?

[Grelna the Blue]

How many more spells known than a sorcerer should a wizard have?

Obviously, the correct answer from the wizard's point of view is going to be something like, "ALL of them," but from a game balance point of view is there a helpful guide, aside from the implication in the PH that the value of a wizard's spells in his spellbook should count against his Wealth by Level (5000 gp per 100 pages)?

[Kelb_Panthera]

The idea that a wizard's spells known beyond his 2/level should count against his WBL isn't just implied. It's a normal trade-off between two different kinds of equipment. There's a reason all my wizards have their "must have" spells tattooed onto their bodies as per CAr. If my ink and paper spell-book "disappears" I don't want to be left with no spells.

[Grelna the Blue]

An excellent idea. I have had characters before who backed up their spellbooks with copies kept in secure locations. I'd do something similar with my current wizard character were it not that the GM I have is impatient with the idea of components and spellbooks and disdains the idea of using them as weaknesses.

It just occurred to me to wonder whether the sense my character has that she is severely hampered by a lack of spells was even remotely on target. For the record, she is an 11th level caster/2nd level rogue and has a Blessed Book which has 164 filled pages. She's only got three 5th level spells and two 6th level spells, but I don't know whether her total spell count is about right, absurdly low, or if she has more than average for her level.

[Endarire]

Enough castings of secret page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secretpage.htm) toss the wealth limits out the window, especially if you can turn any page into any spell for the cost of one casting.

[Grelna the Blue]

Enough castings of secret page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secretpage.htm) toss the wealth limits out the window, especially if you can turn any page into any spell for the cost of one casting.

I've never yet played in a game in which the GM accepted that Secret Page was intended to allow the learning of unknown magics. It's always been accepted that it could change the appearance of a spell upon the page to another spell already known. As that's the way I'd always seen it too, I'd feel hypocritical to argue for any other interpretation.

[Kylarra]

I wouldn't really expect a wizard to get a huge number of extra spells from random drops, but if there's any sort of magic mart, it shouldn't be too difficult to purchase scrolls to pad your book (or borrow spellbooks to copy from if your DM is nice).

[WinceRind]

I think a wizard should have the ability to acquire all the spells available, with enough work and survival. The class concept is that of an academic, unlike Sorcerer and the like he actually works to get his knowledge and powers so he shouldn't be as limited in sense of acquiring greater options. I mean, wizards already have less default spell slots then sorcerers - and they rely on their spell book to actually prepare them.

A book that can be reasonably easily destroyed or stolen. And other options like tattooing yourself with the spells can only give you a few spells, especially if you tattoo just the areas immediately visible to you without any outside help So no back, no head, and stuff like that, and that's probably a good third of your entire body area. Unless you intend to have mirrors and party members/familiar around all the time, which in extreme situations where you do not have your textbook might not be a realistic option - if you've found yourself with no book, ****'s probably already hit the proverbial fan.

[Tvtyrant]

I use the Raistlin method; Wizards find spell books as loot where it is applicable. So wizards actually go find evil wizards for their spell books and components.

[Trouvere]

If secret page could create information unknown to the caster, it could be used to change a shopping list into the complete map of the dungeon, and the BBEG's personal diary, and design schematics for a nuclear warhead. It's obviously nonsense.

[Kylarra]

If secret page could create information unknown to the caster, it could be used to change a shopping list into the complete map of the dungeon, and the BBEG's personal diary, and design schematics for a nuclear warhead. It's obviously nonsense.It's not so much that secret page can create information unknown to the caster as the hypothesis is that you can memorize off the secret page's transmuted spell as well as the original spell without having to pay the ink costs and for being only one page.

[Trouvere]

...the spell you couldn't put there in the first place without knowing it, which you have to do by putting it in your book.

[FelixG]

...the spell you couldn't put there in the first place without knowing it, which you have to do by putting it in your book.

Well you could have a standard book, then use castings of that on one scroll or parchment in down times to make a very nifty backup of your book, just have the first page be a shopping list for mundane items milk cheese new cart wheel ect

Stuff that in no way could be mistaken for a magical formula.

[Acanous]

it would, however, make it so you could have a library of spellbooks in a locked chest at home, but only have to take one book with you- a book with "Secret Page" cast on it 100 times, holding up to 100 spells + 100 pages worth of spells.
This wouldn't reduce the total cost of learning all those spells, but it WOULD make them easilly portable and harder to lose.

[Kylarra]

...the spell you couldn't put there in the first place without knowing it, which you have to do by putting it in your book.You can learn spells without copying it into your book. There's a gap between learning the spell and copying it into your book. The technique being posited involves learning the spell and instead of copying it into your book via the normal method of ink and whatnot, you substitute in the casting of secret page.

[Townopolis]

I think the real use of secret page, in most cases, is to fit your entire spell list into a single spellbook, which isn't otherwise possible (except, perhaps, with a BBB).

[Aquillion]

A book that can be reasonably easily destroyed or stolen.A bow can be relatively easily destroyed or stolen, too. How often does the magical bow that your party's archer invested huge amounts of gold in get stolen or destroyed?

Spellbooks are no more vulnerable than the WBL that any other class invests to serve their purpose -- the money that the wizard invests in spells, the fighter invests in a magic sword and armor. A DM who is going to take away the wizard's spellbook is just as likely to take away the fighter's equipment, and in either case if they decide they're going to take away your WBL because they feel you're too powerful, you're screwed.

[Tvtyrant]

That's why you use the all powerful backup spellbook :P Use the Secret Page ability to copy your entire spellbook and then stick it in the Druid's Guardian Treant.

[gorfnab]

Here's how you can build a wizard that does not require a spellbook but still has lots of spells known.

Elf, preferably Gray

Elf Wizard Racial Sub - Races of the Wild
Eidetic Spellcaster ACF - Dragon Magazine #357
Collegiate Wizard feat - Complete Arcane

1st Level - 7+ Int mod 1st level spells known, all cantrips, 1 extra spell per day of highest level
No Familiar, No Scribe Scroll, No Spellbook

Every level after 1st that advances wizard spellcasting gets you 5 spells known for free instead of the usual 2

If you're playing in Eberron, the feat Aerenal Arcanist (Player's Guide to Eberron) will net you an additional spell known per level netting you 8+Int spells at 1st level (if you take at first level with flaws) and 6 spells known every level after that.

I recommend also taking the Spontaneous Divination ACF from Complete Champion with the build set up.

[Grelna the Blue]

Here's how you can build a wizard that does not require a spellbook but still has lots of spells known.

Elf, preferably Gray

Elf Wizard Racial Sub - Races of the Wild
Eidetic Spellcaster ACF - Dragon Magazine #357
Collegiate Wizard feat - Complete Arcane

1st Level - 7+ Int mod 1st level spells known, all cantrips, 1 extra spell per day of highest level
No Familiar, No Scribe Scroll, No Spellbook

Every level after 1st that advances wizard spellcasting gets you 5 spells known for free instead of the usual 2

If you're playing in Eberron, the feat Aerenal Arcanist (Player's Guide to Eberron) will net you an additional spell known per level netting you 8+Int spells at 1st level (if you take at first level with flaws) and 6 spells known every level after that.

I recommend also taking the Spontaneous Divination ACF from Complete Champion with the build set up.
That IS a nice build, and I might incorporate part of it in a character at some point, depending on the game. As I usually play with non-optimizers (anti-optimizers, really), I generally make my wizard characters a lot less effective in feat selection than they could be, as otherwise I wouldn't need the other PCs. I still have fun--I just try to let the other players do too. But that's one reason I wondered about the appropriate number of spells known.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Even if your DM doesn't do the stealing-of-spellbooks thing it's still fun to picture your wizard checking the cheat-sheet tattooed on his arm in the morning :smalltongue:

[randomhero00]

I go through WBL. Simple as that. Obviously there's some random drops sometimes. Other than that, they have to buy em.

Edit: I should say WBL AND roleplay. Spells are only sold where they make sense. If your on an island with wizards that never want to leave you aren't going to find teleport there.

[Leon]

As many as you find useful to have.

[gorfnab]

That IS a nice build, and I might incorporate part of it in a character at some point, depending on the game.
You can even go VoP with that build since under the reading of VoP you can have a spell component pouch (or just go Eschew Materials). For expensive components the cost becomes 1xp = 5gp if necessary or just beg for the components from party members as the text says.

[Aquillion]

I go through WBL. Simple as that. Obviously there's some random drops sometimes. Other than that, they have to buy em.

Edit: I should say WBL AND roleplay. Spells are only sold where they make sense. If your on an island with wizards that never want to leave you aren't going to find teleport there.Remember, wizards get 2 free spells a level by their own research (and that, incidentally, could answer the OP's question as the 'absolute lower bound' on what a wizard could have.) So it's no problem to make one of those Teleport.

(If the DM wants to ban Teleport, that's fine, but they should just say so upfront -- trying to prevent players from getting things you don't want them to have through setting reasons without outright telling them is a risky thing to do, especially if a player might be basing their character around getting it without realizing that you want to keep it out of your game. In-character impediments only give the PCs more reasons to try and find heroic ways to overcome these dangers -- if you want to ban something for OOC reasons, you should use an OOC ban so everyone is clear on what's up.)

[Vizzerdrix]

I've played wizards that got NO chance to add extra spells. what a nightmare. I couldn't get the buffs the party needed or the spells I wanted. Thank the gods that game dies a quick death. :smallsigh:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Gorfnab's build plays very nicely with Domain Wizard, which also happens to give you a free spell known every spell level.

[Runestar]

That's why I love the eidetic spellcaster variant in dragon 357. Though I have to give up familiar and scribe scroll (no big loss), I essentially get to do away with needing a spellbook. :smallbiggrin: