[3.P] Can I Empower or Maximize a summon spell to boost a summonling's stats?

[Endarire]

First
-Empower Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#empowerSpell)
-Maximize Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#maximizeSpell)
-summon monster I (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonmonsteri.htm)

What Metamagic Would Change
Assuming Empower Spell, a summonling's damage and HP (both variable numeric effects) would increase by 50%. This may even extend to its spells, SLAs, supernatural abilities, poisons, diseases, and other attacks.

Argument
Most summonling spells have an effect of "One summoned creature." Part of this effect is a creature with variable HP per HD (you can roll for HP) and with attacks that deal variable damage (d4+6, for example). In theory, you can Empower and Maximize these.

[Tvtyrant]

I know for certain that you can use it on the number of creatures being summoned; so if your using SMII and you use the "summon 1d3 SMI monsters of the same type" you influence that roll. Not sure about stats.

[Fako]

I think the only defense against your idea is that you are "borrowing" the creature, not creating it at the time of casting. Therefore, you can't change the stats that the creature already had. However, Augment Summoning seems to go against this, so not sure...
-Checked Augment Summoning. It provides an enhancement bonus to the critter, no actual modifications...

My personal vote is to allow it on the # of creatures, but not on the creatures themselves. I'll leave a more experienced player to determine that though...

[Keld Denar]

Yea, it wouldn't affect the creature, since the creature is not a direct part of the spell. A Maximized Celestial Dog wouldn't deal 5 points of damage with its bite, it would deal 1d4+1. The spell summons the animal, the spell doesn't deal the damage directly.

[Acanous]

you'd definately benefit from empowering the later summon spells, though.
Maximizing, not really so much. If you're a wizard with a rod of maximize and prepare Summon Monster 4 Empowered... then you could have a lot of fun with a small army of celestial bears....

[Tvtyrant]

I believe Treantmonk suggested maximizing Malconvoker summons because it gets you 6, but other wise the maximize is almost identical to the average. (2v3).

[KillianHawkeye]

Metamagic feats definitely wouldn't affect the summoned monsters' stats.

[bokodasu]

Yeah, no. The effect is "One summoned creature." There's no variable to empower/maximize. (Until you get to the higher levels and summon 1d3 or 1d4+1 creatures; then maximize would get you 3 or 5 lower-level summons.)

If you had a really, really generous DM, they might give you max hp. But expecting it to work on the creature's attack rolls, which are attacks of a creature and not at all a spell you're casting, is just silly.

[Duke of URL]

The effect of the spell is the summoning of a creature. If using summon xxx N to summon multiple creatures of levels lower then N, then Empower or Maximize would trigger on the variable numerical effect.

The statistics (HP, damage, etc.) of the creatures summoned are not effects of the spell subject to enhancement by Empower or Maximize, but rather properties of the creatures summoned.

[Flickerdart]

Yea, it wouldn't affect the creature, since the creature is not a direct part of the spell. A Maximized Celestial Dog wouldn't deal 5 points of damage with its bite, it would deal 1d4+1. The spell summons the animal, the spell doesn't deal the damage directly.
That's the important distinction though - it's not a Maximized Celestial Dog, it's a Maximized Summon Monster I.

[Raendyn]

conisdering shadow conjur has the % power affecting the HP of the summoned creature, you can talk your DM into maximizing the HP, but thats as far as you can go, me thinks... :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

conisdering shadow conjur has the % power affecting the HP of the summoned creature, you can talk your DM into maximizing the HP, but thats as far as you can go, me thinks... :smallbiggrin:
The fact that it's a specific stated exception proves that this isn't usually the case.

[Salanmander]

That said, it could be a nifty houserule to come up with ways for empower/maximize to affect summon monsters that you use to summon only one. It would be tricky to balance of course, what with the large variety of monsters with different strengths and weaknesses.

[Flickerdart]

When making a houserule, you have to ask yourself - is it necessary? Does it help make the game better/more balanced/more enjoyable? In this case, the answer is almost certainly no.

[Kylarra]

There's already augment summoning for those who want to increase the HPs of their minions.

[Fitz10019]

The Complete Mage has a Ring of Mighty Summons. Up to 3 times a day, the caster wearing it can summon a creature at 'maximum hit points per Hit Die' but the duration of the summoning is halved.

I knew a player who spent his first four wizard levels rolling the HPs of every summoned creature, so he had the argument to Maximize their HPs after he took Maximize Spell feat at fifth level.