[3.P] Contemplating Making Metamagic Immediately Useful. Ramifications?

[Endarire]

Intro
My main problems with metamagic feats in 3.5 are thus:

-Most feats aren't worth the slot level increase.
-I'm spending a FEAT, a valuable, character-defining resource.
-If I instead spend money, I can get a better version of a metamagic feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicRods).

Longer Prose Version
Metamagic feats try to apply a linear scalar to an exponential system. They rarely work as-is, being, in general, too annoying to use.

First, I spend a feat. Second, I get enough class levels to get the needed slots to use said feat. Third,I prepare the spell using a higher-level slot or spontaneously apply said metamagic.

Or, I can just buy a metamagic rod (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicRods) and not feel like a sucker.

Metamagic should provide spiffy and potent tricks to use with magic. The costs are so prohibitive that most metamagic is neither spiffy nor potent.

Note
I know casters are The Real Ultimate Power. I know my system gives them more power, but I also boost other feats to make the desirable to take instead of placeholders.

Purpose
-Make metamagic desirable and fun to use.

Proposal
With minor exceptions, all metamagic feats can be spontaneously used 3/day without increasing the casting time or the spell slot's level. Metapsionic feats don't require spending your psionic focus nor spending extra PP for these free uses.

People can still use these metamagic and metapsionic feats more often by using them normally; that is, with a higher slot level, spending more PP, expending their psionic focus, and so on.

Metamagic and metapsionic feats don't increase a spell's cast time unless the feat explicitly says so. (Go, go, Sorcerer Quicken!)

Exceptions to this rule:
-Fell Drain: Works as per Libris Mortis. If the spell does damage, this auto-kills anything with 1 HD. I may instead add a prereq of 2HD to prevent it from being taken at L1.

-Heighten Spell: Works as per core, unless I remove it. (Heigthen Spell is the source of many early entry tricks.) I dislike the notion of changing it to the spontaneous system.

-Quicken Spell: Works as per core. Extra actions are potent. I don't want people casting 2 spells per round at level 1. Let non-casters have their time.

[Tvtyrant]

Much too powerful with 3 a day; at level 1 you could maximize as many spells as you know! I would suggest making them scale by Caster Level; you add an extra use every 5 levels. Level 20 you get 4 per day, but you also have Time Stop and Gate, beside those its marginal.

[faceroll]

How do you handle things that mitigate metamagic costs with these rules? Because at first blush, this seems really strong, but it could end up neutering really poorly thought out mechanics like Incantatrix's metamagic effect or Divine Metamagic.

[Endarire]

Mitigating costs still works as normal.

3/day seemed like much, but that was in line with the metamagic rods. How'zbout 2/day?

[weenie]

In the hand of a non-blaster player this will make you cry. It's like DMM without needing to have turn undead attempts. Persisted shield and mage armor alone will make a caster untouchable at lvl 1.

[Zaq]

Add Persist to your list of exceptions, and I'd be on board with this. I might drop it to 2/day, though. 3/day is a lot.

[Koury]

What about instead of a flat X/day, you changed it based on the feat? Maybe something like (5-Spell Level Increase)/day. So you could use, say, Maximize 2 times a day for free (5-3=2) and Quicken once a day (5-4=1). Weaker ones like Silent can be used more often, but so what? It gives them a bit more value, which seems fine to me since you're spending the same amount (one feat) on them.

Just a quick thought.

[TakeABow]

What about instead of a flat X/day, you changed it based on the feat? Maybe something like (5-Spell Level Increase)/day. So you could use, say, Maximize 2 times a day for free (5-3=2) and Quicken once a day (5-4=1). Weaker ones like Silent can be used more often, but so what? It gives them a bit more value, which seems fine to me since you're spending the same amount (one feat) on them.

Just a quick thought.

I love this. I would probably end up varying it slightly, but the concept is brilliant. I'm going to incorporate this into my D20Cyberpunk homebrew.

[Endarire]

I rarely use stock creatures as foes. I typically use optimized NPCs with class levels.

It's a significant investment, but using a Chain Twin Split Ray <spell> is possible, even cool as a Human Wizard5 with no flaws (accounting for feat prereqs), or at L1 with flaws. Scorching ray and enervation are fairly obvious picks. (Let's assume this metamagic combo works for the moment.)

[Quietus]

Something like this, I'd make it 1/day, plus 1 more use at every level divisible by 5. So 1/day at 1, 2/day at 5, 3/day at 10, etc.

As for limiting maximize and such at low levels : Each metamagic feat should get a prerequisite of "# of metamagic feats known : normal spell level adjustment -1". So Still/Silent are available right away, while you'd need to pick up something with a +1 adjustment (which doesn't require a previously known metamagic), before picking up Empower (which requires 1). Then, you qualify to get Maximize, and finally Quicken. Persist would then require you to know at least five prior metamagic feats - a very significant investment.

For Heighten Spell, I'd either make it give +1 to the DC per metamagic feat known - this would be powerful when applied to up to five high level spells at level 20 - OR make it treat a spell cast as though it were cast at the highest level you had available. This is probably the better balanced one; A Charm Person as though cast as a level 9 spell is far less scary than a Wail of the Banshee with +5 or more to the DC. Well.. depending.

Beyond all this, I'd probably keep the Psionic Focus thing for psionics, and I'd make wizard/sorcerer metamagic require the use of a swift action to apply. Maybe even give the option to use more than one metamagic, but up the casting time by one each time..so a still, silent spell would take a full round to cast, while a still, silent heightened one would take "one round", with each additional metamagic on it increasing that by one round. No idea how Quicken would fall into this, however.

[Godskook]

My personal houserules on the subject are that you can't use metamagic reducers unless you can cast the spell without it. In return, the players are welcome to use any amount of metamagic reducers they want, even the dragon ones.

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As for the metamagic rods, they're *not* more useful than the feats(not less either), cause:
1.They cost gold, in significant amounts
2.Can't be stacked with themselves
3.Cost more if you want to use them on higher level spells
4.Are often not available when you need them.

Now look at when they come available, price-wise, versus when you can start using the corresponding feats(using 1/4 WBL as a guideline):

Empower:
Rod: 9th level for 1-3 level spells, 13th for a 4-6 level spells
Feat: 5th level for 1st level spells, 9th for 3rd, 11th for 4th and 15th for 6th

Extend:
Rod: 6th level for 1-3, 10th for 4-6
Feat: 3rd for 1st, 7th for 3rd, 9th for 4th and 13th for 6th

Maximize:
Rod: 11th! level for 1-3, 16th for 4-6
Feat: 7th for 1st, 11th for 3rd, 13th for 4th and 17 for 6th

And this analysis assumes:
1.You're spending a significant portion of your WBL on a MM-Rod.
2.You have access to feat and rod immediately when desired.

And thus, extend rods work out to being decently cheap for when you'd want or need them, while empower/maximize come a little late in their games, and we're not even accounting for reducers, which are easy enough to come by that I should've if I had the time to do so.

[randomhero00]

Well part of the problem is certain classes and PrCs use MM better than others.....make an incantrix and then come talk to us about MM being underpowered.

Edit: but in general I actually agree, so long as you ban the MM abusing PrCs like incantrix when you do it. Persist and extend and such are way too high to be very useful for instance, on a normal caster. I'd also give sorcs rapid meta for free + eschew mats.

[Endarire]

Quietus: My initial reaction was, "****ing no!" Apologies, but I HATE feat taxes. It could work, but count me out. Also, this system is contrary to my system which stresses ease of use and immediate access.

randomhero00: I have played a Persist-heavy Incantatrix who put up lotsa buffs on the party. I loved it. The party was more useful because they could reliably hit and hurt things.Human Conjurer5/Incantatrix2/Hathran1/Incantatrix+1/Master Conjurer1/Incantatrix+1 for Red Hand of Doom. Her cohort and she could've duoed most the campaign and would have if not for the other party members who wanted to have fun.

In this case, only Persistent Spell and Extend Spell were useful for making buffs last long times. I wasn't about to try getting enough Spellcraft to add Ocular Spell and Chain Spell as well.

The problem with current metamagic is that it effectively requires Incantatrix or Divine Metamagic to be practical. I've played far more characters from levels 1 to 3 (where metamagic is just a placeholder) than levels 9+ (where metamagic is useful).

Free metamagic makes spells extra spiky in their effectiveness, like the aforementioned Chain Twin Split Ray enervation. It'll probably win a fight, especially at its earliest available opportunity (L7).

Reconsiderations
Which metamagic feats would be fair to include on the free spontaneous 1/day system?

[Kylarra]

I dunno if you've seen this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spontaneousMetamagic.htm) but it's somewhat interesting to read anyway.

[Endarire]

Kylarra: That was an inspiration.

[Godskook]

Reconsiderations
Which metamagic feats would be fair to include on the free spontaneous 1/day system?

What's wrong with Sudden Metamagic?