Targets for Disintegrate

[Silva Stormrage]

So my players are coming up on a boss that is able to cast chain disintegrate. Instead of targeting the players themselves I was thinking about targeting the Player's items instead. Not magical items but things like Holy Symbols and Spell Component Pouches.

Would the item's get a fort save to resist the spell, or at least take 5d6 damage instead of like 40d6?

What would the item's ac be?

Would targeting an object such as a spell component pouch count as targeting a creature for chain, could I only target each one of them once?

What other objects could I target in the party?
My players are a sorcerer and a cleric and have a bunch of Npc's helping them. The caster can target 24 different objects (Go Caster Level Buffs). I would like to avoid destroying permeant magical items but I might target a couple if I can find nothing else to disintegrate .

[Runestar]

If it makes you feel better, disintegrate cannot be chained, since it is not a targeted spell. So why don't you go play nice and use chain dispel (PHB2) instead? :smallamused:

[AslanCross]

Disintegrating a spell component pouch or holy symbol is kind of a waste, IMO, since that can be accomplished with a Sunder attempt. They don't have that much HP. I'd rather fry the PCs instead.

[Fizban]

A carried item can use it's wearer's fort save, Disintigrate allows a fort save, done. AC for carried objects is 10+size modifier+wearer's dex modifier. Targeting the item counts as targeting the item, not the creature, so you can chain as many as you can.

I though you could chain rays? Eh, I try not to think about it much. Runestar's got the right idea though: a Chain Dispel or chained Dispel Magic/Greater can shut down all their magic items for enough rounds to kill them. And hit their own buffs while you're at it.

[Runestar]

I though you could chain rays?

Chain spell requires a spell with a single target greater than "touch". Ray spells are not targeted spells, as they lack the "target: X" clause in their entry.

Or if you want to be really cruel, find some way to chain a reaving dispel (spell compendium). Now you can not only dispel their protections, but also steal them for yourself! :smallbiggrin:

[FelixG]

You could target their mook NPCs they drag around with them, sort of as a demonstration of their power.

Another good thing to target: their packs!

Their packs disintegrate spilling their stored items everywhere, now if they want something they have to return to where their packs are, keep those potions in your pack? DRAT

[KillianHawkeye]

If you want to disintegrate with style, give your BBEG the Disintegration Finesse feat from Lords of Madnes (in the Beholder section, but you don't have to be a Beholder to take it). That way you can disintegrate a PC's arm or leg without killing them, or other cruel and unusual punishments.

[elpollo]

If you're not going to use the chain disintegrate, why does the BBEG have chain disintegrate (I understand that you want him to use it on miscellaneous items, but that's really not "using" chain disintegrate)? If the BBEG goes first and chain disintegrates some rubbish the party is carrying, then the party kill him in a round, he won't look impressive - he'll look stupid. And dead.

Runestar raises an interesting and valid point. Not that this should necessarily stop you, but if you do chain disintegrate something you'll have to have a good reason as to why the party then can't.

Also, does your sorceror have the eschew materials feat? If not, leave his spell component pouch alone. That's not the way to balance magic and martial.

[Douglas]

As already pointed out, Chain Disintegrate doesn't work and would look really stupid if used for such minor destruction. Try Chain Shatter instead.

[Runestar]

As already pointed out, Chain Disintegrate doesn't work and would look really stupid if used for such minor destruction. Try Chain Shatter instead.

You are not helping. :smallfrown:

The idea is not to hose the PCs too much by destroying their eq. Else, he may as well just use disjunction. :smallamused:

[Douglas]

There's a rather large difference between Shatter and Disjunction. For one thing, Shatter just plain doesn't work on magic items. It's perfectly suited for his stated goal of destroying spell component pouches, holy symbols, and so forth, but can't touch any of the really expensive magic equipment.

[Eldan]

He could Twin Disintegrate, I think?

[Eloel]

He could Twin Disintegrate, I think?

And Split Ray that for 4 rays?

[Defiant]

If it makes you feel better, disintegrate cannot be chained, since it is not a targeted spell.


You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit.

[...]

...the ray affects only one target per casting.

It's not a targeted spell?

[Curmudgeon]

For one thing, Shatter just plain doesn't work on magic items. It's perfectly suited for his stated goal of destroying spell component pouches, holy symbols, and so forth
Not even all those items, given a reasonable interpretation of "solid". That term's got to mean one of:

rigid, not flexible;
without interior voids (so no vials, flasks, pouches, & c.);
made of only one material; or
neither liquid nor gas (a highly implausible, anachronistic definition in a setting which knows only alchemy and not chemistry).
Pouches aren't likely to be valid targets for Shatter. They're made of multiple materials (leather, thread stitching, and metal buckle), not rigid, and have open space inside.

[Silva Stormrage]

As already pointed out, Chain Disintegrate doesn't work and would look really stupid if used for such minor destruction. Try Chain Shatter instead.

Thats a good point I guess I didn't read chain spell well enough. The main point is that I wanted to try and target items that are not normally, "Not Targeted".

[Radar]

It's not a targeted spell?
Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) has in it's description "Effect: Ray", whereas targeted spells (like Hold Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdperson.htm)) have "Target: ...".
Also: targeted spells never need a touch attack to hit.

[Malbordeus]

i usually find that targeting the ground beneath the cleric (funny on a bridge too, or over water) or the walls along one half of the room (causing hte other half and the ceiling to cave in) its basicly a gigantic middle finger to saving throws, but is also very characterful.

[blazingshadow]

Not even all those items, given a reasonable interpretation of "solid". That term's got to mean one of:

rigid, not flexible;
without interior voids (so no vials, flasks, pouches, & c.);
made of only one material; or
neither liquid nor gas (a highly implausible, anachronistic definition in a setting which knows only alchemy and not chemistry).
Pouches aren't likely to be valid targets for Shatter. They're made of multiple materials (leather, thread stitching, and metal buckle), not rigid, and have open space inside.

thanks for that. i was wondering how do people go about adventuring without worrying about a shatter spell exploding somone's non magical pants

[Curmudgeon]

i usually find that targeting the ground beneath the cleric (funny on a bridge too, or over water) or the walls along one half of the room (causing hte other half and the ceiling to cave in) its basicly a gigantic middle finger to saving throws, but is also very characterful.
Actually you're just replacing one saving throw with another. You're creating simple mechanical traps via spells: either (effectively) a well-camouflaged pit trap or a falling blocks from ceiling trap (because you haven't engineered the ceiling to come down in one piece). Those are both DC 20 Reflex saves to avoid (see Dungeon Master's Guide Chapter 3).

[Defiant]

Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) has in it's description "Effect: Ray", whereas targeted spells (like Hold Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holdperson.htm)) have "Target: ...".
Also: targeted spells never need a touch attack to hit.

Chain Spell stipulates that it only works on spells that specify a single target.

Disintegrate does this within its description.

[Curmudgeon]

Chain Spell stipulates that it only works on spells that specify a single target.

Disintegrate does this within its description.
And despite that there's still plenty of room for DMs to say no to this combination.
Ray

Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don’t have to see the creature you’re trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. While Disintegrate affects a single target, it can't specify a single target, since as a ray it doesn't require line of sight to work. It's that target specification which Chain Spell requires.

Hair-splitting is fun, isn't it? :smallwink:

[Defiant]

Oh my... so then that means that Chain Spell won't work with orb spells either.

So then chain spell doesn't work with anything that's an "effect", and only works when the description specifically stipulates "Target: one...".

[Radar]

Chain Spell stipulates that it only works on spells that specify a single target.

Disintegrate does this within its description.
No, the spell creates a ray - it's the whole effect of the spell. The rest is description, of how said ray interacts with objects or creatures. For similar reasons Orb spells are "SR:no" the spell ends, when the orbs are created and propeled - what stays is the effect of the spell.

Oh my... so then that means that Chain Spell won't work with orb spells either.

So then chain spell doesn't work with anything that's an "effect", and only works when the description specifically stipulates "Target: one...".
Yup!

[Douglas]

Oh my... so then that means that Chain Spell won't work with orb spells either.

So then chain spell doesn't work with anything that's an "effect", and only works when the description specifically stipulates "Target: one...".
That is exactly correct.

[Leon]

Targets for Disintegrate - The Floor and The Ceiling of the place your fight takes place in.

Has to have some prep but the space above the ceiling should be be full of a hostile substance that the BBEG is resistant to or can avoid.

Seed the floor with 10ft or deeper pits.

At a opportune time breach the roof and rain the area with the nasty substances.

[Silva Stormrage]

Not even all those items, given a reasonable interpretation of "solid". That term's got to mean one of:

rigid, not flexible;
without interior voids (so no vials, flasks, pouches, & c.);
made of only one material; or
neither liquid nor gas (a highly implausible, anachronistic definition in a setting which knows only alchemy and not chemistry).
Pouches aren't likely to be valid targets for Shatter. They're made of multiple materials (leather, thread stitching, and metal buckle), not rigid, and have open space inside.

Well the BBEG also has sculpt spell, would targeting using the AOE affect of Shatter break the objects inside the spell component pouch if it the component in question was "Solid"? Also would a single rose be destroyed? It seems pretty fragile and enough noise that destroys glass would probably tear it apart.



Targets for Disintegrate - The Floor and The Ceiling of the place your fight takes place in.

Has to have some prep but the space above the ceiling should be be full of a hostile substance that the BBEG is resistant to or can avoid.

Seed the floor with 10ft or deeper pits.

At a opportune time breach the roof and rain the area with the nasty substances.

This is actually a great idea. The players at this point can't fly do to a hombrew spell and they will fight on top of a platform in the sky. Disentegrate the floor and have them fall :smallbiggrin:.

[Curmudgeon]

Well the BBEG also has sculpt spell, would targeting using the AOE affect of Shatter break the objects inside the spell component pouch if it the component in question was "Solid"?
Maybe, but each individual attended object always gets a saving throw to avoid the effect. Since the specific contents of a spell component pouch aren't enumerated, but are always adequate to cast any spell, in practice you'd have some number of broken components inside but no impairment to the caster's material component availability.

Also would a single rose be destroyed? It seems pretty fragile and enough noise that destroys glass would probably tear it apart.
A rose is flexible, so it wouldn't be affected at all according to the description of the spell.

[olentu]

Just to note there is as I recall at the least one targeted ray. If I am remembering correctly ray of deanimation has a target entry of one construct.

[Incanur]

Sundering items is so easy that there's not really any way to prevent it aside from staying out of melee range. I love (read: hate) how you can literally cut the ring off of a foe's finger but can never target the hand itself.

[Silva Stormrage]

Ya I just realized that this BBEG has improved sunder.... I forgot about it because it was just a requirement for Blackgaurd. So I will probably just get near and sunder the spell component pouch with a regular attack.

[Incanur]

As a side note, what's the deal with that Disintegration Finesse feat? How does disintegrating somebodies head or hand work? (Page 27 of the DMG only gives rules for injuring specific body parts, not removing them.) Does a body party only get disintegrated on a failed save? Does the whole still get turned to dust if the damage exceeds the victim's hp?

[Eloel]

Also would a single rose be destroyed? It seems pretty fragile and enough noise that destroys glass would probably tear it apart.

You can't target a rose. The ray has two seperate effects on two different specimen. Creatures, and nonliving matter. A rose is neither.

[Runestar]

Oh my... so then that means that Chain Spell won't work with orb spells either.

So then chain spell doesn't work with anything that's an "effect", and only works when the description specifically stipulates "Target: one...".

Nor can you channel ray spells (eg: a duskblade cannot use arcane channeling with scorching ray), but I digress. :smalltongue:

[KillianHawkeye]

As a side note, what's the deal with that Disintegration Finesse feat? How does disintegrating somebodies head or hand work? (Page 27 of the DMG only gives rules for injuring specific body parts, not removing them.) Does a body party only get disintegrated on a failed save? Does the whole still get turned to dust if the damage exceeds the victim's hp?

It doesn't say anything about them having to fail their save, but there's a slight implication that it only works when the target is killed ("Normal: A disintegrate effect destroys all of a slain creature, and entire object, or one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter). However, there's also a clause that allows you to voluntarily reduce the damage you deal, so it's kind of unclear.

There's also a note of how it works if you're using the "Damage to Specific Areas" rule variant from the DMG, allowing you to simply target certain body parts without killing the subject. It actually says "as long as the target is not killed outright by the damage caused by the spell," which implies that they're still fully disintegrated if they die (which is opposite of what the rest of the feat seems to be saying).

Hmm.... looking back at this, I'd say the feat is not written very well at all. (Or it works two completely different ways depending on whether or not you're using that variant from the DMG.) Unless there's some errata for it, it'll probably have to come down to individual DMs' interpretations.