Tarquin's Build.

[Tyndmyr]

Aright, Im not interested in who he can beat up, or if he's really neutral or the rest of that, though this thread might be of interest to those topics. I want to figure out what the likely builds are for him.

Fact 1. He's got a lot of skill points. He clearly has not only a lot of social skills, but has a fair amount of knowledge skills at all(is there any topic on which he has been shown to be anything other than knowledgeable so far?). This likely includes ranks in knowledge(arcana) or spellcraft, as demonstrated by his knowledge of spells. This effectively eliminates classes with few skill points as a possibility, especially if they lack these as class skills. Fighter, barbarian, etc are not likely as more than a minor portion of his build due to this alone

Fact 2. He wears armor. This points toward melee, but certainly isn't a guarantee. He probably has at least a moderate AC, as demonstrated by Elan's failure to hit at all. This unfortunately does not narrow down possible builds much.

Fact 3. The giant tends towards non-ridiculous builds. Lots of core classes, lots of straight class builds. He is not likely to be X 1/Y 2/Z 1/Q 3/U 1. The most complicated serious build we've seen is a straight mystic theurge. PrCs can't even be assumed to be taken at every opportunity. However, he normally does not seriously make characters actually incompetent. Therefore, the build is probably a reasonable, but not hyper-optimized one.

Fact 4. Alignment is pretty definitively lawful evil. This rules out Barbarian, Paladin, etc.

Fact 5. He is shown as having solid mental stats. In particular, charisma. In OOTSverse, physical attractiveness is charisma based. Elan is established as having an 18 cha. Haley states after seeing Tarquin that she's glad to know Elan will still be sexy with grey hair. Therefore, we can assume 18+ Cha for Tarquin. Int and Wis are less precise, but we have seen repeated demonstrations of at least solid scores in both. Physical scores have not been demonstrated.

Fact 6. He used a dagger for defense against Elan. This, together with the armor, makes monk an unlikely choice.


Options:

Bard. He's got the stats. It runs in the family. It fits his skillset. Not unreasonable.

Barbarian. Skills are unlikely. Alignment is not chaotic. No.

Cleric. Seems unlikely. First off, the party already has a cleric, which hangs around with him. They could both be clerics, but that seems improbable compared to other options. Also, we see no obvious holy symbol. However, it remains a possibility, with a domain such as trickery.

Druid. He wears metal armor and uses a metal weapon. No animal companion. Not neutral. No.

Fighter. Insufficient skill points/wrong class skills. No more than a couple levels.

Monk. Wrong fighting style, wears armor. No.

Ranger. No animal companion. No sign of a ranged weapon or twf. Has skill points, but lacks class skills. Probably not, despite being cha friendly.

Rogue. Skills are possible. No real evidence for or against.

Sorc. Shortage of skill points. However, good class skill matchup, good stat matchup. No familiar, though. If arcane magic runs in the blood, then having bard sons makes this somewhat more likely. Possible, but lacking evidence.

Wizard. Same issues as sorc, with the added disadvantages of no evidence of spellbook, and less pri stat justification

Something else: Unfortunately, the list of primary classes is long, so I haven't gone through each. However, it's not indefinite, so while a few like Marshall fit well, there's only a few that are really possible. He's probably not a psion for instance.

[megabyter5]

You messed up on Barbarian and Bard. For the former, you don't have to be chaotic, just non-lawful. In fact, this limitation is shared by the Bard. This means that unless you argue him to be Neutral Evil, which you have stated that you don't, Bard IS in fact, "unreasonable".

[boj0]

Despite being non-core, I would peg him as a Marshal; he would have a decent set of skills, modest combat ability, and is Cha friendly (also, he seemed to fall into the leader role of his own adventuring party). Also, it just seems to gel so well with his personality and "I'd rather win the war than the battle" attitude. His age (and thus mental stat boosts) would also contribute to skill points.

[Gettles]

How about Marshal with high int? Gets bluff, diplomacy(even skill focus in it as a class feature), and knowledge skills, fits into the support mold of his sons, and gets to wear all types of armor?

[Grim Reader]

I wouldn't rule out a straight Fighter. Human with a 14-16 int matches Bard for skill points. Epic fighter might be an interesting option.

I doubt Bard. "As a Bard, you clearly have no combat skills worth mentioning" as he said. But possibly he had a career change very early, after a realization about the Bards uselessness.
(Clue Young Tarquin, Bard 1, shaking his fist at a stormy sky and yelling "As Hell is my witness: I WILL NEVER BE WEAK AGAIN!")He taught Nale that Bards are underpowered, so it does seem a bit of a thing with him.

It would not be out of character for him to grab a couple of levels of Blackguard, to put that charisma to good use. Much the same reason as Elan had for dipping Dashing Swordsman.

Tarquin just seems...too efficient, and to aware of class efficiency not to put some thought into it.

[Gift Jeraff]

We rarely see familiars and animal companions (I think we've only seen 4 if you count Mr. Scruffy), so I wouldn't count the lack of those as evidence against those classes.

But I'm betting on fighter, something made up by Rich, or psychic warrior. I also don't see him with more than 2 classes.

[Chaos rising]

I'm reaching here I know, but what about a Blackguard. Sabine mentioned them while talking in prison, so we know they exist in this world, also, since blackguards have some spellcasting ability it would fit Tarquin's high INT and CHA better than a fighter. Also, Tarquin definitely seems LE

[Swordpriest]

My guess is Marshal, also, but I don't know if that's core enough to show up in OotS.

[Sr.medusa]

My personal bet:

Rogue 4/Fighter 4/Duelist 7-10

Lots of skill points, complete BAB-1, Uncanny doge, high CA (doge bonus, thus Elan can't hit him). This fits to me and it's core only. Outside of core, I'm agree on the Marshal theory, ¿or maybe Factorum (high INT score convines with high disarm/bullrush atemts)? Who knows...

PD: sorry for my engrish gramar, this is not my racial lenguage and I don't know if my INT is that high

[Grim Reader]

A simple build might be: Bard 8 -> huge trauma -> alignment change -> Blackguard 10.

Bab +16, armor, weapons, divine and arcane spells, gendersavy.

[TimelordSimone]

Had this whole thing about Warlords, looked it up, turns out that's what Marshal is.
So +1 for Marshal then. :P

[Tyndmyr]

You messed up on Barbarian and Bard. For the former, you don't have to be chaotic, just non-lawful. In fact, this limitation is shared by the Bard. This means that unless you argue him to be Neutral Evil, which you have stated that you don't, Bard IS in fact, "unreasonable".

Excellent catch. Therefore, we can likely rule out bard, unless he's changed alignment in the past(which seems unlikely. We have history showing him at the head of an evil army before).

Marshal does seem somehow fitting. Thematic, not ridiculously obscure, some stat synergy, no deal breakers or complex builds required.

I don't see classes invented by Rich as likely. Those are unusual, and the only one I can think of offhand is the dashing swordsman...which is more of a plot device to work in puns than anything else, and which Elan only has one level in.

Likewise, straight fighter is harsh. Yes, with enough int, and being human, you do get fairly decent skill points. However, cross-class eats skill points dramatically quickly, and would make it difficult to potray Tarquin as a widely knowledgeable, diplomatic master. At a minimum, he is proficient with bluff, sense motive, diplomacy, and several knowledge skills. He may well have more. I could buy say, a level or two of fighter, on the way to say, eldritch knight(though that is also crippled by a mere 2 skills/level), but any more would be crippling. He could simply have a giant pile of levels, but that seems like an unlikely solution, and lacking in build elegance.

[TimelordSimone]

A simple build might be: Bard 8 -> huge trauma -> alignment change -> Blackguard 10.

Bab +16, armor, weapons, divine and arcane spells, gendersavy.

Can't wait for a Tarquin and V scene. :P

[Ryuuk]

Factotum?

Its from Dungeonscape, gives you all skills as class skills and the ability to pull of an awesome check in skill in a pinch, Int to most everything which can fix lacking physical stats, Cunning Brilliance gives you plenty of adaptability (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html).

The only problem would be the armor, but I can see him as the class.

[CrimsonAngel]

My personal bet:
Rogue 4/Fighter 4/Duelist 7-10

Elan should challenge him to a children's card game. After all, it's time to D-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-duel.

[Sr.medusa]

Elan should challenge him to a children's card game. After all, it's time to D-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-duel.

Yeah, I wish they have special mount for the poke-duel. Gotch'em all!

[boj0]

Factotum is possible, Rich did help write Dungeonscape (not sure if he wrote the class or not)

[Gift Jeraff]

and which Elan only has one level in.
There is no evidence for or against that. He could easily be a 2nd level or higher (though I'd say 3rd tops) dashing swordsman by now and we wouldn't know.

[Heksefatter]

Fact 5. He is shown as having solid mental stats. In particular, charisma. In OOTSverse, physical attractiveness is charisma based. Elan is established as having an 18 cha. Haley states after seeing Tarquin that she's glad to know Elan will still be sexy with grey hair. Therefore, we can assume 18+ Cha for Tarquin. Int and Wis are less precise, but we have seen repeated demonstrations of at least solid scores in both. Physical scores have not been demonstrated.



I've always considered cha and physical attractiveness to be related, but in a complex and uncertain way.

Example: Xykon is no looker, but he probably has the highest charisma of any major character in the strip. Miko seemed to me like she was a good-looking character, but her dour demeanour probably translated into an unremarkable charisma.

So, while I think that it is reasonable to assume that Tarquin, who is charming in person and a strong leader, has a high charisma, I don't think that just comparing his appearance to Elan who is cha 18+ is enough.

If I should guess Tarquin's charisma, I'd venture...16-18.

[Wikiality]

Factotum is possible, Rich did help write Dungeonscape (not sure if he wrote the class or not)
In regard to the Factotum

Rich Burlew: I don't have much to add here, this class was really Jason's baby. I will say that I was surprised when I first read it that it was capable of temporarily filling a role without doing it so well that the class dedicated to that role would become obsolete.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070305a

[shadowkiller]

Keep in mind we have seen him fighting with three different types of weapons which tells me he is probably not a fighter. So his class should reflect his ability to change weapon types easily.

[blazingshadow]

There is no evidence for or against that. He could easily be a 2nd level or higher (though I'd say 3rd tops) dashing swordsman by now and we wouldn't know.he did take a bard level instead of continuing his dashing swordsman progression and he did mention that he wanted better cure spells (at least critical wounds) in the future. i don't know how long a class dashing swordsman is but if it is longer than 5 levels he might not be finishing it IMO


i believe tarquin can be a duskblade or hexblade if only to continue the gish theme of the family. he hasn't shown spellcasting yet but it's not like nale or elan cast spells all that often either

[KingFlameHawk]

My bet would have to be on Marshal. It seems to fit with everything we have seen with Tarquin.
For Marshals charisma is most important and intelligence is also very important.
They can be any alignment.
All the important class skills like bluff, diplomacy and (im guessing on these) intimidate, knowledge, listen, sense motive and others I would think Tarquin would use.
They get plenty of skill points.
Proficency with lots of weapons and all armor
Skill focus on diplomacy, and as one could imagine he would be using that a lot.
Marshals are relient on other PCs but are willing to get into melee combat and Tarquin seems to be a true team player and has shown melee skill

So really I would have to say Marshal but ultimatly I don't know. I guess we will just have to wait until the giant reveils it in the comic or somewere else to know for certain.


Taken directly from the wizards of the coast website
Marshals have the following game statistics.

Abilities: Charisma is especially important for marshals because it improves their standing with those they lead, as well as permitting them to magnify the efforts of the group. Constitution is important for a marshal's staying power. Intelligence is important for the many skills required by marshals to complete their commissions.

Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d8.

Class Skills

The marshal's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (n/a), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier)x4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the marshal.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Marshals are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

[Havelock]

Marshall is probably the best fit if we want a simple, one-class build.

I wouldn't put it past it for Tarquin to mix Fighter with some Rogue for skills though.

[Deliverance]

Fact 1. He's got a lot of skill points. He clearly has not only a lot of social skills, but has a fair amount of knowledge skills at all(is there any topic on which he has been shown to be anything other than knowledgeable so far?). This likely includes ranks in knowledge(arcana) or spellcraft, as demonstrated by his knowledge of spells. This effectively eliminates classes with few skill points as a possibility, especially if they lack these as class skills. Fighter, barbarian, etc are not likely as more than a minor portion of his build due to this alone
I would have to challenge this.

Which fields have we seen Tarquin display knowledge of requiring the deeper study that a trained knowledge skill represents?

Knowing about teleport spells, for instance, or concluding that a mage cannot teleport because he does not in a situation where it would be advantageous does not imply ranks in knowledge(arcana) or spellcraft - all it implies is knowledge commonly available (some mages can teleport, not all mages can do all things) and the use of intelligence. He also knows about feather fall. All of the non-casters of OOTS, for instance, would be able to draw that conclusion and have that knowledge despite the lack of knowledge(arcana) or spellcraft. Tarquin has been the leader of an adventuring band and a grey eminence for many years - one way or another, he'll have acquired that common knowledge.

The only field I can think of in which he has definitely shown more than common knowledge is in narrative conventions. :smallbiggrin:

[snikrept]

Which fields have we seen Tarquin display knowledge of requiring the deeper study that a trained knowledge skill represents?

There are hints that he's got some strange corners of human skill filled out well.

Example: After he's done dueling Elan he mentions that he's not been called upon to pun-fight in some time... which could imply that he doesn't normally pun-fight (i.e. no levels in Dashing Swordsman) but he's got ranks in something that allows him to recall how, very effectively. Could also imply he knows a dozen fighting styles and pun-fight is one of them. Knowledges, not sure he's demonstrated anything uncanny; but physical skills, maybe.

[snikrept]

Fact 6. He used a dagger for defense against Elan. This, together with the armor, makes monk an unlikely choice.


It's worth noting that, while he used a dagger in a pinch, when he went into pitched battle against Nale in the flashback (with, presumably, more time to prep & grab his best weapon) he was seen using a sword and shield.

[Deliverance]

There are hints that he's got some strange corners of human skill filled out well.

Example: After he's done dueling Elan he mentions that he's not been called upon to pun-fight in some time... which could imply that he doesn't normally pun-fight (i.e. no levels in Dashing Swordsman) but he's got ranks in something that allows him to recall how, very effectively. Could also imply he knows a dozen fighting styles and pun-fight is one of them. Knowledges, not sure he's demonstrated anything uncanny; but physical skills, maybe.
I quite agree and moreover, I am not at all opposed to the idea that he has a bucketful of skillpoints as well and wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be the case.

The only thing I object to in this regard is jumping to conclusions like the OP did in order to exclude classes based on skillpoints.

[Damon_Caskey]

It's worth noting that, while he used a dagger in a pinch, when he went into pitched battle against Nale in the flashback (with, presumably, more time to prep & grab his best weapon) he was seen using a sword and shield.

Don't forget the trusty BFA he uses on the very same page, or here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html). So far he's shown at the very least (proficiency wise):


Medium (probably heavy) armor
Shields
Simple Weapons (Dagger)
Martial (Great Axe)
Martial (Long sword)


In other words, he either has a martial class in there somewhere, or he's blown a ton of feats just for gear. Fighter still seems most likely to me, because it's one of the only classes that can get away with using several weapons and actually be effective with them.

On the other hand, the guys suggesting him being an EK or one of the "X-Blade" classes and choosing not to chuck spells around might be onto to something. Makes sense if only because A) it would cover the proficiency and attack bonus needs, B) Tarquin likes pragmatic efficiency/power/preparedness, C) Rich likes to represent different class set ups and we haven't yet seen a gish. I seriously doubt Blackguard because of its "dedication" to another entity or pure evil for its own sake. Tarquin is dedicated to Tarquin.

DC

[danielmayer]

As Marshal is unknown to me - thus IMHO not "deep core" - I think him most likely to be a blackguard-type. Kind of the opposite of Miko but most likely epic or near-epic (lvl >=18).
His swordplay against Elan may hint to dashing swordsman, despite or especially because he seldom used it. High charisma makes this a sure thing.
Against Duelist I count his medium armor. Doesn't look like mithril.

I bet on Fighter or BG, one of them with DS multiclass :)

Greetings!
(edit: miserable spelling...)

[Mordaenor]

Actually, I think if any character we've met would disregard character class altogether, its Tarquin. We already know he disregards "Elan's outdated aligment system." Yes, I know most of agree he's lawful evil, but HE doesn't see himself in those colors. So I don't see why he shouldn't disregard the class system and choose his skills as he sees fit, i.e. a Character with a High Attack Bonus, Heavy Amor Proficiency, and lots o' Skill Points. My two cents.

[the Riddler]

To me, the guy always screamed "Blackguard". Sure, we haven't seen him cast a single spell yet, but that could just mean he doesn't like to squander them. I'd personally go for a mix of Rogue/Fighter/Blackguard, Rogue & Blackguard being the most prominent classes in the build (assuming 20 levels, I'd go for Rogue 6/Fighter 4/Blackguard 10).

Might very well be wishful thinking, I do love Blackguards, after all. :tongue:

Or he could be a Swashbu- no, wait, heavy armor, axe, longsword. Oh well.

[Damon_Caskey]

To me, the guy always screamed "Blackguard". Sure, we haven't seen him cast a single spell yet, but that could just mean he doesn't like to squander them. I'd personally go for a mix of Rogue/Fighter/Blackguard, Rogue & Blackguard being the most preminent classes in the build (assuming 20 levels, I'd go for Rogue 6/Fighter 4/Blackguard 10).

Might very well be wishful thinking, I do love Blackguards, after all. :tongue:

Again though, the problem with Blackguard is similar to Paladins and other alignment based classes; the flavor is that of a dedicated malarite. Tarquin serves no one but himself. Playing lackey (for real) to another evil force or being evil for its own sake isn't his thing.

DC

[the Riddler]

Again though, the problem with Blackgaurd is similar to Paladins and other alignment based classes; the flavor is that of a dedicated malarite. Tarquin serves no one but himself. Playing lackey (for real) to another evil force or being evil for its own sake isn't his thing.

DC

Yup, that's pretty much what doesn't make me 100% sure about him being a blackguard...
And yet, "As NPCs, blackguards usually lead legions of undead, evil outsiders, or other monsters to conquer their own doomed demesne or expand their existing territory. Sometimes they serve more powerful evil characters as dark lieutenants. On occasion they operate alone as hired killers or wandering purveyors of ill, destruction, and chaos."

That doesn't make a Blackguard so dedicated and selflessly committed to a higher (well, lower, in this case) cause as a Paladin would be.. but again, I may be just trying to make it all fit just to feel happy about it :biggrin:

[Shale]

I seriously doubt anybody who believes himself above conventional definitions of good and evil would take a class that's explicitly based on pledging one's allegiance and servitude to literal, incarnated evil.

[danielmayer]

Blackguard of the Snarl?

- no, wait. He wants Elan sucessfully finish his mission.
- no, wait. He does not know about the gates, does he?

[Zmflavius]

Blackguard of the Snarl?

- no, wait. He wants Elan sucessfully finish his mission.
- no, wait. He does not know about the gates, does he?

For another, I don't really think you can place the Snarl into good or evil. I always thought of it as being extreme chaotic neutral, since both evil and good gods were threatened by it.

[hrak]

What if Tarquin was Girard Draketooth and he just wanted to test the OOTS to see if they had truly good intentions before reveling the information about the gates?

Okay, probably not, but I just thought I would throw that out there.

Anyway, I really do believe that he is a Factotum.... 100%
Like they said, Rich worked on the book, so it wouldn't be a stretch for him to use that class.

[Thalnawr]

Hmm, his knowledge of exotic fighting styles and how to counter them could be basically cross-class ranks of Martial Lore.

[Grim Reader]

I seriously doubt anybody who believes himself above conventional definitions of good and evil would take a class that's explicitly based on pledging one's allegiance and servitude to literal, incarnated evil.

I don't remember that? I do remember the Blackguard having to make peaceful contact with contact with an evil outsider, but that was it as far as I remember?

Anyway, it is a pity the stats and alignemnts don't mesh to make Sabine his Fiendish Servant.

[KillItWithFire]

As Marshal is unknown to me - thus IMHO not "deep core" - I think him most likely to be a blackguard-type. Kind of the opposite of Miko but most likely epic or near-epic (lvl >=18).
His swordplay against Elan may hint to dashing swordsman, despite or especially because he seldom used it. High charisma makes this a sure thing.
Against Duelist I count his medium armor. Doesn't look like mithril.

I bet on Fighter or BG, one of them with DS multiclass :)

Greetings!
(edit: miserable spelling...)

I don't see how you can claim that Tarquin is such a high level. Yes he was the leader of a prominent adventuring party but other than that we haven't seen him DO anything that could gives us any hints as to his level. Not only that but here Elan says that Tarquin blocked his pun, not necessarily that Tarquin was using the ability himself. With Elan's only way of being competent nullified all we've seen Tarquin do is beat a 13-14th level bard in one-on-one combat. Nice achievement there. I doubt that Tarquin is epic and I doubt that he has any levels in DS at all. Due to his wide degree of weapon proficiencies I'd say he has at least one level of fighter. (Most likely more as that seems to be his focus) and from what I've heard of marshall I feel that to be the most likely answer and I think he has somewhere between 15-16 levels in it.

[Tyndmyr]

It's worth noting that, while he used a dagger in a pinch, when he went into pitched battle against Nale in the flashback (with, presumably, more time to prep & grab his best weapon) he was seen using a sword and shield.

Yup. Further evidence of traditional melee skills, and suggests that monk is highly unlikely. I suppose you *could* try to make a traditional weapon based monk, but it's so improbable as to be fairly quickly dismissed.

He knows a few different spells. This isn't particularly special in itself, but the teleport thing strikes me as an assessment of banned school, since he found the results interesting(and conjuration is a rare ban). The reaction is not appropriate for all wizards, as it's routine for low level casters to be unable to teleport. Therefore, he already had some idea of the level of V, and the level at which teleport is available. Exactly what level of skill investment this represents is fairly uncertain, but that's clearly outside the realm of an untrained check.

He is known to have extensive knowledge of obscure combat techniques. This probably translates to knowledge skills. Knowledge(nobility) is also likely, given his stated knowledge of them, and his ability to manipulate them. Know(geography) is likely to have at least a couple ranks for similar reasons.

The guy clearly has some epic bluffing, and probably a bit of disguise, given the ruse of continually acting as different leaders. Forgery is a possibility, as it'd be useful in this, but is not verified.

Sense Motive. He's pretty good at determining what people are up to. How much is sheer intelligence/wisdom, and how much is skill is up for debate, but the guy is definitely pretty savvy.

Diplomacy. Do I really need to explain this one?

UMD: Not certain. Possible, given his stash of magic items, but rings of regeneration and the like don't require it.




Another thing of note: If WBL is even vaguely being followed, the point at which you have duplicate rings of regeneration for the heck of it is definitely epic.

That plus the dramatic suggestion that Elan go and level up a bunch before coming back and facing him(strangely similar to the original Xycon/Roy chat), indicates that he's got enough levels on Elan that he's ridiculously outclassed. These two things suggest a higher level that we can ascertain from pure deeds.

[Barstro]

Granted, I'm using limited knowledge of AD&A, even less knowledge of 3.5, and failing memory of OotS. Anyway...

Do we really have proof that Tarquin is a good fighter? The only thing I have seen is that he is an adequate defender. He never landed a blow on Elan (but, he wasn't trying). In fact, he didn't really defend against Elan's Dashing Swordsman attacks. Instead, he countered Elan's DS abilities and rendered him the lackluster attacker that Elan actually is.

Tarquin might simply have taken many ranks is defending abilities and knowledge of how to counter some of the more obscure attack modifiers (ie. Dashing Swordsman). You don't get in a position of power by being the best fighter, you get there by staying alive.

I don't recall actually seeing Tarquin win a fight. We have seen him lead an army and parry most attacks.

As for him telling Elan to come back in a few levels; it could be a decent bluff. Maybe fending of Elan took all of the powers that Tarquin has and he is just trying to buy a few more years of living the high life. Maybe even hoping that Elan doesn't survive the Snarl quest.

[Tyndmyr]

Granted, I'm using limited knowledge of AD&A, even less knowledge of 3.5, and failing memory of OotS. Anyway...

Do we really have proof that Tarquin is a good fighter? The only thing I have seen is that he is an adequate defender. He never landed a blow on Elan (but, he wasn't trying). In fact, he didn't really defend against Elan's Dashing Swordsman attacks. Instead, he countered Elan's DS abilities and rendered him the lackluster attacker that Elan actually is.

A dagger is not a terribly good defensive option, and we know from other shots that it's certainly not his normal one. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that the defending-only shown while fighting Elan is one of choice and goals, not of style. He isn't trying to hurt Elan at all, and he appears to be in no danger from Elan.


Tarquin might simply have taken many ranks is defending abilities and knowledge of how to counter some of the more obscure attack modifiers (ie. Dashing Swordsman). You don't get in a position of power by being the best fighter, you get there by staying alive.

I don't recall actually seeing Tarquin win a fight. We have seen him lead an army and parry most attacks.

We really don't know his preferred combat style, though we know he adapts to those of others. However, we can deduce from the fact that he's quite good at conquering and had a long and successful adventuring career, that he must be at least a decent combatant.

Furthermore, there isn't much in the way of defensive classes that fit. He's not a dwarven defender. He doesn't seem to be a knight. He uses a shield at times, but against Elan, he didn't bother. Presumably he has some defenses(magic items seems a good bet, due to his stack of them), but we really have little reason to believe he's solely defensive.


As for him telling Elan to come back in a few levels; it could be a decent bluff. Maybe fending of Elan took all of the powers that Tarquin has and he is just trying to buy a few more years of living the high life. Maybe even hoping that Elan doesn't survive the Snarl quest.

It doesn't fit. He's trying to make Elan see his side, not bluff Elan into not hurting him. After all, merely bluffing Elan would be ridiculously easy, but he's blatantly demonstrating evilness by burning slaves and such, to see how Elan reacts, then explain his viewpoint.

There is absolutely no weakness revealed in how Tarquin chooses to deal with others at the moment, save for the dramatic trope that the villian always falls, and even that is used by him.

[Barstro]

Therefore, the logical conclusion is that the defending-only shown while fighting Elan is one of choice and goals, not of style. He isn't trying to hurt Elan at all, and he appears to be in no danger from Elan.

I agree that the logical conclusion is "choice of goals", but we do not have enough evidence to state that it is (or is not) of style.



We really don't know his preferred combat style, though we know he adapts to those of others. However, we can deduce from the fact that he's quite good at conquering and had a long and successful adventuring career, that he must be at least a decent combatant.

We know that people he is around have a good history of conquering. For all we know, he could just be a perfect defender (and stays alive) and improves a party a little bit (enough to earn his keep). He might simply bluff/steal/etc. to get the magic items necessary for his continuing career without actually making a kill himself.


Furthermore, there isn't much in the way of defensive classes that fit. He's not a dwarven defender. He doesn't seem to be a knight. He uses a shield at times, but against Elan, he didn't bother. Presumably he has some defenses(magic items seems a good bet, due to his stack of them), but we really have little reason to believe he's solely defensive.

Agreed. I'll accept your statement on classes (I don't know most of them). While we have little reason to believe he's solely defensive, I submit that we have just as much evidence that he is offensive. He probably is a great melee combatant, but we have zero evidence of that. We do have a little evidence that he is defensive.


It doesn't fit. He's trying to make Elan see his side, not bluff Elan into not hurting him. After all, merely bluffing Elan would be ridiculously easy, but he's blatantly demonstrating evilness by burning slaves and such, to see how Elan reacts, then explain his viewpoint.

We know that he TRIED to get Elan to see his side. We also know that he failed. Tarquin seems intelligent enough to realize that he failed. Assuming (again, no evidence) that (1) Tarquin is only defensive, (2) gave all he had to fend off Elan, and (3) would not stand up to OotS, a good option is to convince Elan that one-on-one is the way to go, but shouldn't be done for a few years.


There is absolutely no weakness revealed in how Tarquin chooses to deal with others at the moment, save for the dramatic trope that the villian always falls, and even that is used by him.

Who says that a purely defensive combat style is a weakness? I think it is an incredible strength. My only point is that we have no proof that Tarquin has some elite offensive power, only that he is capable of taking very little damage and negating Elan's fighting ability.

[Damon_Caskey]

...


Why is the pun countering being cited as proof of combat ability (or lack of it)? I've seen it brought up a lot, and it doesn't make any sense. DS's pun feature only adds the attacker's Charisma bonus to damage. It does nothing we know of what so ever for attack bonus. The only thing Tarquin did by countering puns was eroding Elan's confidence and nullifying any extra damage he might have done. Maybe not even the latter, but since Elan never hit it doesn't really matter.

More to the point, Elan was already decent fighter as it was. Not great, but better then most, and certainly not as weak as many here seem to think. Enor owned him. Tarquin owned him. That's two losses in direct combat for the entire comic. One is a half breed cheese build for Melee, the other is at the least an older more savoy adventurer. Otherwise Elan has held his own in fights just fine. Which makes sense. Mid to high level Bards with good Dexterity (which Elan has) and a magic rapier in hand are not exactly helpless in appropriate CR melee. A purely marshal class his own level should crush Elan true enough, but not without taking a few licks first.

Tarquin never got scratched. He didn't even get a *dink* bouncing off his armor. Oh, and the whole time Tarquin was showing 0 effort while Elan gave it all he had (the same as Nale in their "strenuous" disagreement). In fact he was genuinely enjoying himself. That's why Tarquin appears to be higher level.

DC

[Tyndmyr]

Precisely, Damon.

In the interests of covering the base classes in more depth, I'm grabbing a complete list here.

adept NPC class. Core, sure. Pure arc/div caster with a limited list, though. No real armor, shields or weapons going on. Unlikely.

aristocrat NPC class. Not entirely irrelevant, and has been used before, but again, we have no explanation for shield/weapon use. These guys are not great fighters.

artificer Eberron specific. Not melee focused. Basically no evidence whatsoever. Sure, he's got a stack of magic items, but rings of regeneration don't imply that he has infusions.

barbarian LE isn't going to work here. He also seems not terribly like a barbarian, especially as they are potrayed in the comic.

bard LE isn't going to work here. Somewhat better than barb, but not much.

bardic sage Not really any better than straight bard.

battle sorcerer Variant sorc with some melee friendly stuff. A possibility, albeit a somewhat obscure one. Im not aware of any UA stuff being used so far.

cleric Already covered.

cloistered cleric This basically removes every reason cleric might be a possibility. Unlikely.

commoner Too plain. Commoner for plot-significant characters is unlikely, and it doesn't explain competence at anything.

divine bard Probably even less likely than a regular bard. In addition to the bard problems, you get to deal with a more obscure source, and the lack of any evidence for divine casting.

domain wizard Basically all the likelihood of wizard, with the added drawback of being more obscure. Highly unlikely.

druid Already covered.

druidic avenger All the likelihood of the druid, with the added problems of obscurity. Almost certainly not.

dwarf cleric Dwarf Only. No.
dwarf fighter Dwarf Only. No.
dwarf sorcerer Dwarf Only. No.

eidolon Ghost only. No.
eidoloncer Ghost only. No.

elf paladin RW 155 Racial substitution levels.
elf ranger RW 155 Racial substitution levels.
elf wizard RW 157 Racial substitution levels.

expert Eh. Like the other NPC classes, doesn't explain anything about Tarquin. Unlikely.

factotum Possible. The big problem with this, is that factotums can do almost anything. It's pretty hard to eliminate them as a possibility without direct build info. After all, if you had no class information about #almostanycharacterinOOTS, could they be potrayed by factotum? Probably. Only things like V casting the same spell repeatedly, or direct build info is enough to eliminate this.

favored soul Roughly as likely as a cloistered cleric. So, not very. Would need to be a spont divine caster, of which there is no evidence.

fighter Alrerady covered.

gnome bard Must be Gnome. No.
gnome illusionistMust be Gnome. No.
gnome ranger Must be Gnome. No.

goliath barbarian Must be Goliath. No.
goliath druid Must be Goliath. No.
goliath rogue Must be Goliath. No.

half-elf bard Must be Half-elf. No.
half-elf fighter Must be Half-elf. No.
half-elf ranger Must be Half-elf. No.
half-elf barbarian Must be Half-elf. No.
half-elf druid Must be Half-elf. No.
half-elf paladin Must be Half-elf. No.

halfling druid Just No. You understand why.
halfling monk "
halfling rogue "

healer Divine caster with a limited list devoted almost entirely to healing others? No. This is not Tarquin at all.

hexblade This is actually possible. There's no evidence for the arcane side yet, but it is cha based. It's not the most awesome of classes, but it's not ridiculously bad. I wouldn't consider it likely short of arcane use, but it's not ruled out yet.

marshal A strong contender. Thematically appropriate, nothing rules it out, and, if nothing else, it makes a strong dip. Probably one of the likeliest choices at the moment.

monk Already covered.

mystic If he's divine, this is probably more fluff appropriate than most. No need for dealing with dieties and the like. That said, it's still pretty obscure, and there's little reason to suspect divine casting.

ninja Almost certainly not. Ninjas have been covered repeatedly before. Tarquin bears no similarity to them.

noble At first glance, this seems almost reasonable. However, it's from dragonlance campaign setting. This is among the more obscure possible sources, and again, isn't terribly melee friendly. Almost certainly not.

paladin Alignment is a no.

paladin of freedom Setting up lawful kingdoms and enslaving people? No.

paladin of slaughter Possible, I suppose. It seems to assume a greater degree of slaughter for it's own sake than we see out of Tarquin, but not impossible.

paladin of tyranny Probably the most likely of the paladin classes. Tarquin still doesn't strike me as a champion of anything in particular though. His motivations are for his own sake.

paladin variant Fails just like pally.

planar ranger Yeah, no. Nothing about this resembles Tarquin.

psion Highly unlikely. Psionics are not used much in this world. Add in the lack of explanation for melee, and you've got long odds. Less obscure than many, though.

psychic warrior Technically possible, I suppose. Covers the melee issue, but still has the psychic problem. It's less overt than most psionic chars, but still seems to be fairly unprecedented.

ranger Already covered

ranger variant I don't recall this one off the top of my head. However, variant classes do seem less likely for obscurity reasons.

raptoran cleric No.
raptoran fighter No.
raptoran sorcerer No.

rogue Already covered

samurai Samurai, again, are already covered, regardless of which variant you use. Tarquin does not resemble existing potrayals of Samurai within the comic, and is thus highly unlikely to be one.

savage bard It is difficult to imagine a character less like Tarquin than this.

scout An interesting possibility. I can see some weak arguments for it, but it suffers the same lack of hard evidence that so many do. Also, if memory serves, it's a light armor class, and Tarquin has armor that's traditionally potrayed as heavy.

shaman Spirit guy? Don't see any real connection here.

shugenja Same problems as other divine casters, and again, fairly obscure/asian themed. Unlikely at best.

sohei Tarquin is not an oriental monk.

sorcerer Already covered.

soulknife Nope. He fights with actual weapons, not psionic ones.

specialized wizard variants I'd be surprised if he was a regular wizard, let alone an obscure specialist variant.

spellcaster Generic classes haven't been used yet. I doubt they will be. Almost certainly not.

spellthief An interesting possibility. Not a likely one, perhaps, but if this is the case, we wouldn't necessarily have seen any evidence of it thus far, and it would explain the knowledge of magic. I do seem to recall this as another class that doesn't traditionally go with heavy armor and a shield, though.

spirit shaman No. Doesn't match the character at all.

swashbuckler Lack of proficiencies, but otherwise not unreasonable. However, perhaps a bit close to Elan's prestige class.

thug Eh, it trades off one problem with fighter(class skills like bluff) for another(proficiencies). Unlikely.

totem barbarian Same problems as barbs. No real differences here.

urban adept Sharn specific. No.

urban ranger Probably about as likely as vanilla ranger. Tarquin is well suited to urban environments....but on the flip side, it's again an unlikely variant class.

warlock Proficiency issues, and not a great meleer. Worth considering as a possibility if Tarquin demonstrates arcane proficiency that might be an eldritch blast, but otherwise, wouldn't worry about it.

warmage Slightly less likely than sorc. All the same problems, a bit less well known.

warrior Same problems as fighter, but lacks the additional feats to try to compensate for problems. Unlikely.

wilder Crazy psionicist type? No.

wilderness rogue If Tarquin is a rogue, it's almost certainly not the wilderness variant. He's an urbane individual, and has demonstrated skills that match a traditional rogue skillset, not those of a woodsman.

wizard Already covered

wu jen Same problem as the other oriental classes. The oriental folk in OOTS are fairly distinctive. Tarquin isn't one of them, nor are his children. This class is an unlikely choice.

archivist A fun class choice that I'd personally like to see show up someshere, but it doesn't seem to match Tarquin, for reasons already covered in every other divine caster option.

dread necromancer Nope. Not at all. Another fun class, but not one that matches at all.

psionic artificer Ludicrous.

incarnate Incarnum hasn't shown up yet, has it? If it's not in the universe, he isn't using this class.
soulborn Same problem as above.
totemist Ditto

binder Binding we actually do have some evidence for, albeit circumstantial at best...in the form of V's deal. However, we have no reason to believe that any of Tarquins power stems from a deal with a devil. Not that he wouldn't, mind you.

shadowcaster No sign of shadowcasting in OOTS yet.

truenamer Negative. He's not dead yet, and he won a combat against a moderately high level.

ardent It's not only psionics, it's complete psionics. Extremely improbable.

divine mind "
lurk "

duergar racial class No.
githyanki racial class No.
githzerai racial class No.
half-giant racial class No.
thri-kreen racial class No.

beguiler The class fits thematically, but again, we lack support for demonstrated melee options used, and we don't even know he casts spells. Something to revisit if he busts out enchantment spells, but not a probable option until then.

dragon shaman His relationship with the red dragon doesn't really fit this.

duskblade Again, while melee, not really a heavy armor type.

knight Tough melee, got the proficiencies, and affects opponents mentally. Cha based, almost always lawful. Actually a pretty strong contender.

crusader Possible, but seems less likely than knight or marshal. ToB hasn't been a big thing thus far, with more traditional melee classes being used often.

swordsage Ditto, with the additional caveat of being a steriotypical light, fast fighter.

warblade Same as crusader. The only plus over fighter is the additional skill points.

dragonfire adept If Tarquin has a breath weapon, I'll eat my hat. Ima go out on a limb and say he isn't this.











Top two contenders so far: Marshal, Knight.

[SadisticFishing]

I see him as a Rogue/Fighter. Blackguard or Duelist both make perfect sense, with Duelist fitting what we've seen him do in combat better, but that is totally a Blackguard helmet :smallcool:

[Deliverance]

He knows a few different spells. This isn't particularly special in itself, but the teleport thing strikes me as an assessment of banned school, since he found the results interesting(and conjuration is a rare ban). The reaction is not appropriate for all wizards, as it's routine for low level casters to be unable to teleport. Therefore, he already had some idea of the level of V, and the level at which teleport is available. Exactly what level of skill investment this represents is fairly uncertain, but that's clearly outside the realm of an untrained check.

It is quite common for adventurers in D&D to have a good idea about the fundamental mechanics of how other classes work and what they can do at what levels that they have adventured together with. At least amongst those that work well as a team.

It is possible through personal experience (even just plain being told), that doesn't require deep study and the expenditure and skill points, to gain knowledge that may well be outside the realm of an untrained check for the average peasant.

And what is common knowledge for the average peasant isn't the same as what is common knowledge for the average adventurer or, for that matter, the average ruler.

[Dalek-K]

Now that would be great!

Tarquin: "Bards are weak"

Elan: "Oh yeah! What class are you?"

Tarquin: "Beguiler"

Elan: O_o;;;;;

From what I've read up on beguilers... they are what you get when you cross a rogue with a bard haha well sort of

[Occasional Sage]

Tyndmyr, while I agree that Tarquin doesn't fit the role of samurai as portrayed in OotS, I'm constantly reminded of an OA class whenever he's brought up.

Years ago, a class called the "Daidoji Bodyguard" (I believe) was published by AEG for their L5R d10 system, which has since been converted to d20 though I don't know where this particular class was republished. The class had the ability to nullify any combat ability the character had previously seen used, at a small cost translatable to D&D.

Dunno. I doubt Rich dipped into L5R classes for Tarquin, but his scene is perfect flavor for those mechanics.

[Gylderhaan]

Tarquin seems built for versatility. The best way to do that without being a spell castor is through the use of feats. Fighters are the class that gets the most feats. Not everyone of them is built like Roy who is devoted to a single weapon (Weapon Focus/Specialization/Greater versions). Instead, you could choose from a wide array of feats that open up knew tactic choices.

For example: Improved Bull Rush (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html) and Improved Disarm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html). The prerequisites for those feats are Power Attack and Combat Expertise, respectively. We have seen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html) Tarquinn use weapons that would synergize with those feats (Great Axe for the former, and Sword and Shield for the latter).

The insistence that Tarquin has a large pool of skills is overrated. In the situation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0756.html) where a direct lie would prove the most beneficial he simply skirts the truth. Telling the target something they want to hear is -5 to Sense Motive checks against Bluff, and he still fears detection. In table-top RPGs telling half-truths is often a way to avoid having to make a bluff check at all.

As for Tarquin's knowledge of spells and combat techniques that could be more a matter of experience than ranks. We know he has a cleric and, probably, a magic user in his party. Seeing spells and their effects over and over again, and then encountering them in a knew arena does not negate your knowledge of them whether you have spellcraft or not.

As for Tarquin's use of dagger in his fight with Elan we need to consider the circumstances. Tarquin is an important authority figure in the kingdom. Why should he have to tote around a big axe or shield and sword? What does he have to fear? But a easily concealed +5 Defending Dagger that gave his guards time to respond is believeable. We already know the price is not an issue as he has a spare Ring of Regeneration (90,000 gold pieces) just sitting around.

The Giant likes core, and for the most part, simplicity. What is more likely: that Tarquin is an esoteric class from a supplement, that he is an elaborate multi-class prestige-class build to explain away his skill in a single fight at the lowest possible level, or that he is, in fact, just a high level (possibly 20th) fighter built in a manner that stresses versatility?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Though it uses Tome of Battle (and I've seen no evidence thus far that the OotS World uses that book) but I'd like to suggest Bard/Warblade (or Crusader, but my gut says Warblade) with maybe Song of the White Raven and Able Learner for feats (in addition to those he's demonstrated, namely Improved Bull Rush and Improved Disarm). This would net him decent skills, combat ability, and would jive with the whole 'Bards have no combat abilities to speak of' attitude (he was a Bard initially, but found it didn't work for his life/playstyle, so switched to Warblade). And it would synergize well with his apparently high Charisma and Intelligence.