[3.5] Need Help with a Character... need the expert eyes on it..

[monkeysammich]

*salute*

Though I've been reading the forums for a while... I've finally broken down and needed some help with a character... and it seems like you all know the ins-and-outs of making things work.

To start...

Books Allowed: Everything Core, minus Stormwrack, Frostburn and Sandstorm. No Eberron, No Forgotten Realms.... No settings, basically.

3.5 DnD game, semi-high tweakage going on, some very brutal combats.

The Concept: A "Trust fund adventurer" ... Spoiled Rich Kid, charmer, dashing, always in trouble, father is an ex-adventurer who sends his son to college (warmage academy) and then signs him up to work for a known mercenary company (the noble that has our party employed). He's very smart, very charming... but also very lazy and doesn't like getting his hands dirty.

We are currently 11th level.

Here's what I put together, but can be modified as people suggestions come in.

Oh, No Flaws allowed.

---

Rogue 3/Warmage 4/Fortune's Friend 4
20th Level: Rogue 3/Warmage 4/Fortune's Friend 5/Arcane Trickster 8

Now, I know what you're thinking "Fortune's Friend?!" .. but I think it fits nicely in the concept. Decent Skill Points, lots of luck, some caster levels.

Feats I took are Able Learner at 1st and Practiced Spellcaster at 6th(ish). The rest of the feats (including 2 bonus feats from Fortune's Friend) are luck feats (Lucky Start, Unbelievable Luck, Better Lucky than Good, *spell damage feat*)

EDIT: We get a regional bonus feat from a list created by our DM, and that allowed me to take Spell Hand... which gives me the Mage Hand required for Arcane Trickster. (I think)

I think its a pretty good idea, maybe not optimal... but conceptually cool. Now lets see how he can be better, stronger, faster...

(Also, eclectic learning suggestion and equipment suggestions would be great)

Thank you in advance!

-The Monkey of the Sammich-

[kestrel404]

If you want to play a fortune's friend, I'd recommend Beguiler over Rogue/Warmage. Add some levels of Unseen Seer for the sneak attack if you want to get into Arcane Trickster.

But for the character concept you've put forward, I would actually say that your best bet is probably Factotum/Chameleon. You're just the guy who's family has been at this so long you can do pretty much anything.
Factotum 5/Chameleon 6, and when you hit Chameleon 7 (2 sets of abilities at once), you go back to Factotum.

[monkeysammich]

Factotum... that's... Dungeonscape, right?

Not sure any of us has ever asked if that's allowed. I'll bring it up to the GM (we're on hiatus for the holidays, so I've got time)

Final Build would be... Factotum 13/Chameleon 7 in that instance?

[Greenish]

Books Allowed: Everything Core, minus Stormwrack, Frostburn and Sandstorm.Wait, what?

The Concept: A "Trust fund adventurer" ... Spoiled Rich Kid, charmer, dashing, always in trouble, father is an ex-adventurer who sends his son to college (warmage academy) and then signs him up to work for a known mercenary company (the noble that has our party employed). He's very smart, very charming... but also very lazy and doesn't like getting his hands dirty.So, a war caster of some sort. Are you going more for casty or gishy (ie. more for casting spells from relative safety, or for using your spells to buff yourself and wade in)?

For casty, Unseen Seer build should work okay (typically, rogue1/wiz4-5/US5-10/Arcane Trickster or Spellwarp Sniper to finish). Beguiler is okay too, though rather light on blasting.

For more gishy, Duskblade makes for a good melee caster as is, but there are other options (even mostly core fighter/(wizard or sorcerer)/Eldritch Knight does okay with good spell selection, unless the game is very high OP).

Something in between could be Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer), but that further reduces sorcerer's already few spells known. Still, with good spell selection (and a bit thought put to expand it), it can do a proficient warmage single-classed, or provide easy access to many appropriate classes.

[monkeysammich]

Wait, what?

I suppose I shouldnt say Core... I meant all non-setting source books. All the completes/Races of/etc...

Sorry.



So, a war caster of some sort. Are you going more for casty or gishy (ie. more for casting spells from relative safety, or for using your spells to buff yourself and wade in)?

For casty, Unseen Seer build should work okay (typically, rogue1/wiz4-5/US5-10/Arcane Trickster or Spellwarp Sniper to finish). Beguiler is okay too, though rather light on blasting.

For more gishy, Duskblade makes for a good melee caster as is, but there are other options (even mostly core fighter/(wizard or sorcerer)/Eldritch Knight does okay with good spell selection, unless the game is very high OP).

Something in between could be Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer), but that further reduces sorcerer's already few spells known. Still, with good spell selection (and a bit thought put to expand it), it can do a proficient warmage single-classed, or provide easy access to many appropriate classes.

The role in the party would be more skills than anything... then I suppose caster to supplement. Non-melee for the most part.

Obviously focused on a split between Cha and Int (rogue + face). If it helps, the current party is as follows:

Fighter/Barbarian/Bear Warrior
Warlock
Illusionist/Master Specialist/Shadowcraft Mage
Rogue

and my current char: Cleric/Ordained Champion/Sacred Exorcist

This is the inevitable back up char (we all have one. I usually have 8.)

[Greenish]

The role in the party would be more skills than anything... then I suppose caster to supplement. Non-melee for the most part.

Obviously focused on a split between Cha and Int (rogue + face).Hmm, have you seen Beguiler from PHBII? It's int-based spontaneous caster with a large list of mainly illusion & enchantment spells automatically known, with a great skill list and 6+int skillpoints per level.

The Unseen Seer detailed in my previous post can also fit, with Able Learner. Unseen Seer is from CMage, Spellwarp Sniper is from CScoundrel, and Arcane Trickster from DMG.

[true_shinken]

Warmage is a pretty sucky suplementary caster... many people have already pointed you towards Beguiler, but you could give the Bard some love as well.
If you're dead set on warmage/Rogue... then Spellwarp Sniper is the prestige class for you.
EDIT: Of course, you could also expand Warmage's spell list. Your build has a few free feats, right? Arcane Disciple is pretty good on a Warmage.

[monkeysammich]

Not dead set on Warmage, just the first thing I looked at as something "out of the ordinary"...

Beguiler seems neat... but I know the DM and he does a lot of constructs/undead/plants/oozes mixed in with encounters, several encounters have had our (ex bard, left this week, moving to scotland) and illusionist mostly scratching their heads, aiding attacks, and healing us.

Rogue sorcerer might be a much better route.

[Greenish]

Rogue sorcerer might be a much better route.Wizard is usually the better option, for more versatility in spells, and for Int-focused casting giving you more skills to play with (and better ACFs and faster access to new spell levels and easier access to many PrCs…).

But a sorcerer with well-picked spells is a thing to behold, and has it's own perks, so if you prefer spontaneous casting (I do), it will work just fine.

[kestrel404]

Sounds like you're just wanting to try something different.

If you're running into a lot of weird enemies who are immune to the normal stuff (sneak attack, charm, etc), then what about a Dragonfire Adept? You can take the base class all the way to 20 (there aren't really any prestige classes that help it), and still end up with a bunch of interesting options. Also, at level 11 you can start with the Humanoid Shape power (alter self into humanoid forms at will, basically) which provides most of the class' versatility. Between that and the entangling breath feat, and you can be useful no matter what.

If you do that, I'd recommend being a Dragonborn (breath weapon version), and take the Quicken Breath weapon feat from Draconomicon - that way you can use one breath weapon as a swift action (once every 4 rounds) and the other as a standard round. Plus, the wording of the Breath effect class feature means you can apply the breath effects to your racial breath weapon in addition to the class one.

[gorfnab]

Spellthief 1/ Wizard 5/ Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 4 - basic sneak attacking mage

Spellthief 1/ Wizard 5/ Spellwarp Sniper 5/ Unseen Seer 9 - blasty sneak attacking mage

Spellthief 1/ Wizard 5 (Spontaneous Divination ACF- CC)/ Divine Oracle 4/ Unseen Seer 10 - Divination spamming sneak attack mage

Here is a handbook for these type of builds Sneak Attacking Spellcasters (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240.0).

Otherwise here is a very nice Beguiler Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.0). It even has a section on how to deal with Undead and other "tricky" monsters.

[Greenish]

If you're running into a lot of weird enemies who are immune to the normal stuff (sneak attack, charm, etc), then what about a Dragonfire Adept?DFA is a fun class, but not a clever skillmonkey.

Spellthief 1/ Wizard 5/ Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 4 - basic sneak attacking mage

Spellthief 1/ Wizard 5/ Spellwarp Sniper 5/ Unseen Seer 9 - blasty sneak attacking mage

Spellthief 1/ Wizard 5 (Spontaneous Divination ACF- CC)/ Divine Oracle 4/ Unseen Seer 10 - Divination spamming sneak attack mageYou can in all three cases replace spellthief with rogue and/or wizard 5 with sorcerer 4, if you wish.

[kestrel404]

Oh, right, skill monkey (I was distracted by the fact that the party already contains a rogue). With that being the case, I also recommend my favorite build: (Still think factotum/chameleon is better)

Rogue 1/Wizard 1/Human Paragon 3/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 10

You don't use Charisma for anything in particular, but you can act as the party face easily enough. You're down 2 spell levels compared to a wizard, but you're a total skill monkey and very int-focused. Able learner at 1st level is highly recommended, and the Human Paragon can choose 11 random skills you're not already proficient with (How about Iaijutsu Focus?). This is only a 19 level build, 20 can be any PrC that advances spellcasting. Best of all, there's nothing here that's not already available.

If you want, you can substitute Spellwarp Sniper for Arcane Trickster (or mix them up) to be more of a blaster mage.

And yes, you would be a Factotum 13/Chameleon 7. A few more levels of Chameleon if you want to have more spells available (Chameleon 10 does an excellent impression of a mystic theurge).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You considered Warmage without considering the possibility of Rainbow Warsnake? For shame, my friend... for shame.

[monkeysammich]

Oh, right, skill monkey (I was distracted by the fact that the party already contains a rogue).

Well, our rogue is the guy at the table that doesnt really do the optimize thing... his rogue is decent, does the job... but I dont think he'll be sticking around (the player has already expressed his concerns to the DM... and then to me... I pointed out some glaring flaws and I think I may have killed his love for rogue)


You considered Warmage without considering the possibility of Rainbow Warsnake? For shame, my friend... for shame.

The coatl class from Complete Arcane? Never really read it... good for warmages?

[Gavinfoxx]

Your Illusionist and the DM does know that mindless Constructs have basically no defense against illusion spells, right?

[Greenish]

The coatl class from Complete Arcane? Never really read it... good for warmages?Yeah, Rainbow Servant. It's full casting by text, and (eventually) adds all cleric spells to your spell list.

Warmages can spontaneously cast any spell on their list, so the PrC would allow them to spontaneously cast any cleric spell ever printed (or, well, the ones you have access to).

Might be a bit much for your game.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The coatl class from Complete Arcane? Never really read it... good for warmages?

Complete Divine, and... yes.

Capstone of PrC gives you the entire Cleric spell list as being on your spell list. And you can spontaneously cast off of your spell list. Thus you get spontaneous casting of every Cleric spell EVAR.

So yes... it is good.

[monkeysammich]

Yeah, the DM might roll up a newspaper and hit me with it ... like when I tried to convince him to let me play a venerable dragonwrought kobold.... :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

Yeah, the DM might roll up a newspaper and hit me with it ... like when I tried to convince him to let me play a venerable dragonwrought kobold.... :smalltongue:I've never felt that to be particularly cheesy. You'll get good mental stats, and lose a feat (or two, compared to a human).

Well, adding polymorph spells, epic feats or sovereign archetypes is a bit much.

Just goes to show that cheese is relative.

[Eldariel]

Beguiler seems neat... but I know the DM and he does a lot of constructs/undead/plants/oozes mixed in with encounters, several encounters have had our (ex bard, left this week, moving to scotland) and illusionist mostly scratching their heads, aiding attacks, and healing us.

It's...Beguilers are actually deceptively powerful against Undead when they know what they're doing. One huge thing to understand is that Mindless undead are very, very poor against Illusions since they pretty much lack the cognitive capability to tell an Illusion apart from reality, or to understand what reality is in the first place.

Generally mindless creatures are programmed to do something, e.g. to attack intruders or something; close them into an illusionary cage so they cannot detect the people around them and chances are they'll simply stop.


Then there's a number of spells that function regardless of mind-affecting immunity; Glitterdust and Slow are big ones. Legion of Sentinels and simple buffs like Invisibility, Displacement, Haste and company too. Same things really work on Constructs too (they're much the same as mindless Undead). Beguilers' options are certainly limited when dealing with mind-affecting immune things but you don't need lots of options, just effective ones and they exist.

As such, I wouldn't abandon Beguiler for a reason like that; merely do your homework with what works against opponents you can't brainwash and you should be just fine.



Though the earlier mentioned Factotum-build is v. good; I personally like Factotum 8/Chameleon going Chameleon 9, then finishing into Factotum 11/Chameleon 9 (getting Chameleon 10 is also good, but Factotum 11 has a really nice ability; either works, of course).

[monkeysammich]

Okay, you've swayed me on the beguiler a bit. But to that end, what would some theoretical stats, feats and equipment be like for a delicious level 11? As I've never played one, I wouldnt know the first thing about making it tick.

I suppose there might be a beguiler handbook out there somewhere. :smallbiggrin:

[kestrel404]

There are, indeed, several decent guides for beguiler. Personally, I tend to play up the skillmonkey aspect and I like to PrC into Unseen Seer (there are some divination spells on your class list, so no problem meeting the requirements), and from there into any other skillmonky/caster class.

Although, it has to be said, the Rainbow Servant/spontaneous access to all cleric spells trick also works just as well for beguilers since they have the same casting mechanics as Warmages.

[JeminiZero]

Okay, you've swayed me on the beguiler a bit. But to that end, what would some theoretical stats, feats and equipment be like for a delicious level 11? As I've never played one, I wouldnt know the first thing about making it tick.

I suppose there might be a beguiler handbook out there somewhere. :smallbiggrin:

Try looking up:


Otherwise here is a very nice Beguiler Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.0). It even has a section on how to deal with Undead and other "tricky" monsters.

[monkeysammich]

Try looking up:

Oh. Hah! I was actually reading that, forgot that he linked it. That's what I get for not paying attention...

So here's what I've got so far:


Gray Elf Beguiler 11

ATTRIBUTES [2 level bumps to INT, +2 to all from Belt]
STR: 10
DEX: 18
CON: 14
INT: 22
WIS: 12
CHA: 16

SKILLS
Use Magic Device
Diplomacy
Tumble
Disable Device
Search
Spellcraft
Hide
Move Silent
Spot
Know (Arcana)/Know (Local)/Balance/Bluff [not maxed, ranks spread)

FEATS
1- Spell Focus (Illusion)
3- Versatile Spellcasting
6- Spell Focus (Enchantment)
9- [open]

Level 11 Starting Gold: 66,000
Belt of Magnificence +2 -25,000
Vest of Resistance +2 -4,000

Thoughts on the level 9 feat? More equipment? Good Wands? (I'm at work, so getting to the handbook is no good, though this site still works! yay!)

[kestrel404]

I'd recommend something other than spell focus for feats. Instead, take feats towards getting into a PrC - level 11 is about as high as you want to go in Beguiler (it's got a lot of dead levels after that). Sandshaper is awesome (9/10 spellcasting, gives you access to a bunch of very tasty but not overpowered spells that fill out some holes in the beguiler list, and you get to play with magic 'do anything' sand). Versatile spellcaster is a nice touch.

If your GM allows it, take Eclectic Learning instead of Advanced Learning for your 11th level class feature - this will let you pick up a spell from any school, but as one spell level higher - so you can pick up Polymorph as a level 5 spell. It's still an awesome spell as a level 5 spell. Then at level 12, take the Minor Shapeshift reserve feat - this will keep you from dying (it lets you get temp HP when you need them).

[Greenish]

Sandshaper is awesome (9/10 spellcasting8/10 casting. The first level gives a conditional CL but doesn't progress casting.

[Daremonai]

Isn't Sandshaper from It's Hot Outside - one of the books on the banned list?

[WinceRind]

Spellthief is, in my opinion, often a better choice for a dip when you're an arcane caster then the regular rogue.

If you can make it fit your character, you should definitely do so. At level 1, you get the same amount of sneak attack as a rogue, 2 less skill points, and a lot of cool extra things. By forgoing 1d6 sneak attack damage, you can steal other people's spells... And with Master Spelltheif feat from CScoundrel it scales with your arcane caster levels, so it goes up to 9th level spells. And you get a caster level out of all your spellthief levels, too. Going more then one level can prove beneficial as well if you don't intend to solely specialize in spells. Being able to steal buffs from enemies with sneak attack is really nice, and Detect magic as a spell-like ability Cha mod times a day helps too.

A spellthief is generally no worse then a rogue at being the face of the party, and with enough int you shouldn't have too much problem overcoming the 2 lost skill points per level. Sure, you don't get evasion, but if you either go Spellthief high enough or take Master Spellthief and some arcane caster high enough, you can steal high level buffs and spells from casters and hurl the latter back at them with their intended strength.

Plus you can also steal spells from willing targets as a standard action, and that can help in some situations.

[Greenish]

If you can make it fit your character, you should definitely do so. At level 1, you get the same amount of sneak attack as a rogue, 2 less skill points, and a lot of cool extra things. By forgoing 1d6 sneak attack damage, you can steal other people's spells... And with Master Spelltheif feat from CScoundrel it scales with your arcane caster levels, so it goes up to 9th level spells.You don't get to keep the spells you steal, though. And it's 8 skill points less if you start with Spellthief instead of rogue.

[Curmudgeon]

Complete Divine, and... yes.

Capstone of PrC gives you the entire Cleric spell list as being on your spell list. And you can spontaneously cast off of your spell list. Thus you get spontaneous casting of every Cleric spell EVAR.
You get spontaneous casting of every Cleric spell you've learned. You've still got to acquire scrolls of every single spell, and then learn them one at a time.
Cleric Spell Access: A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has.

[gorfnab]

Thoughts on the level 9 feat? More equipment? Good Wands? (I'm at work, so getting to the handbook is no good, though this site still works! yay!)

Feats:
Unsettling Enchantment - CM
Darkstalker - LoM
Dazzling Illusion - CM

Gear:
+X Mithral Chain Shirt - DMG
+X Mithral Buckler - DMG
Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis - ToM
Eternal Wand of Heroics - MIC
Headband of Conscious Effort - MIC
Handy Haversack - DMG
Ring of the Darkhidden - MIC
Rod of Shadowblending - CM
Arcane Thieves Tools - MIC
Circlet of Persuasion - DMG

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You get spontaneous casting of every Cleric spell you've learned. You've still got to acquire scrolls of every single spell, and then learn them one at a time.

Close, but no cigar. You see, they're not like a Sorcerer, in that they have to get spells known. They get to cast any spell they have access to. Which is all of them.

[Curmudgeon]

You see, they're not like a Sorcerer, in that they have to get spells known. They get to cast any spell they have access to. Which is all of them.
I quoted the Cleric Spell Access class ability, which specifically notes that a Rainbow Servant can learn spells and then cast them. No learning = no casting.

[Urpriest]

I quoted the Cleric Spell Access class ability, which specifically notes that a Rainbow Servant can learn spells and then cast them. No learning = no casting.

However, that entry doesn't specify the method of learning. If your description were correct then a Sorcerer Rainbow Servant would have to write spells into a nonexistent spellbook. Furthermore according to the text for Warmage spellcasting, Warmages automatically know (i.e. learn) all the spells for that level when they gain a new level of spells.

Come to think of it, would this mean that a Warmage Rainbow Servant can only learn cleric spells of levels that they don't get access to until after the capstone? That would be an interesting hitch in the build indeed.

[Curmudgeon]

However, that entry doesn't specify the method of learning.
That just leaves it up to the individual DM. Personally, I'd go with the standard Spellcraft check that Wizards use to learn a spell.

[Urpriest]

That just leaves it up to the individual DM. Personally, I'd go with the standard Spellcraft check that Wizards use to learn a spell.

Only one other class uses that, and that class is intended to replace Wizards in other campaign settings. So that's a very odd choice. It also leaves the class just as powerful in high-op, while making it much tamer in your typical "ye cannot get ye scroll" game. Is that intentional?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I quoted the Cleric Spell Access class ability, which specifically notes that a Rainbow Servant can learn spells and then cast them. No learning = no casting.

Incorrect. Continue reading and it says:

"This class feature grants access to the spells"

And under spellcasting of the Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer, clearly states:

"Does not NEED to learn spells. May spontaneously cast any spell they have access to"

Therefore: Yes, it works.

[Curmudgeon]

Incorrect. Continue reading and it says:

"This class feature grants access to the spells" How is it incorrect to quote the class ability description, which says a "rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list"? I guess you want to ignore the "learn" part, but it's right there in the text. A Rainbow Servant can learn Cleric spells, but there's nothing in the class description to say you automatically have learned all of them. Access to the spells doesn't mean those spells have been learned, any more than access to a large library automatically means you have read all its books.

And under spellcasting of the Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer, clearly states
Since we're talking about the Rainbow Servant prestige class here, abilities for some random base classes really aren't on topic, are they?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Since we're talking about the Rainbow Servant prestige class here, abilities for some random base classes really aren't on topic, are they?

Wow... I... I can't believe I just read this...

Okay, allow me to clearly point something out. I'm trying to be very patient here, and not do anything which might get the Mods upset with me. Therefore, allow me to calmly explain, without making any personal attacks which I am (very) tempted to make, why your entire supposition is completely flawed.

These 'random base classes' are the topic on hand. Rainbow Servant simply came up as a way to turn these otherwise unremarkable classes into Tier 1 monstrosities. You are trying to come at the discussion backwards, then argue that the original point of discussion is not relevant TO the discussion.

And, as they can cast any spell they have access to, without needing to 'learn' it, they can, in point of fact, act as a Schroedinger's Cleric as soon as they hit the capstone.

If you cannot at least comprehend this, then we have nothing further to discuss on this topic.

[Curmudgeon]

These 'random base classes' are the topic on hand. Rainbow Servant simply came up as a way to turn these otherwise unremarkable classes into Tier 1 monstrosities.
...
And, as they can cast any spell they have access to, without needing to 'learn' it, they can, in point of fact, act as a Schroedinger's Cleric as soon as they hit the capstone.
You're still trying to skip over the inconvenient part of the Cleric Spell Access RS class feature. They can learn and cast spells from the Cleric class list, and this is what grants access to those spells. The stipulation "This class feature grants access to the spells" is dependent on the first part, which requires learning. Thus, any abilities of other classes are restricted by the spell learning requirement here.

[MeeposFire]

That part saying learning is to allow a class that needs to learn to be able to learn the spell. If an arcane class picks up this 10th level ability and it did not say learn you could imply that you can cast the spell but a wizard could not write it into their spell book. This is obviously not the case. Warmages can cast any spell on their spell list. They automatically learn their spells when they are on their spell list and this feature puts all those cleric spells on their class list.

If you are a warmage

1) Is a spell on your spell list?

If yes

2) Then you can cast it.

3) Does this 10th level ability put cleric spells on my spell list?

Yes so see #2.

[true_shinken]

Wow... I... I can't believe I just read this...
I'll just quote myself (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9833393&postcount=50).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'll just quote myself (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9833393&postcount=50).

You speak words of wisdom. I will let it be.

[Urpriest]

I'll just quote myself (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9833393&postcount=50).

But, but, it's so fun!!